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Message no. 1
From: BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM>
Subject: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:53:03 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> At 09:39 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
> >> Didn't FASA say the Stonewall MBT was just information propoganda and not
> >an
> >> actual vehicle?
> >>
> >Really? Where did this come from guy? I have never heard that one, and it's
> >never been put someplace where most of the gamers can reach it.
>
> I seem to recall that in the Rigger Black Book there was a bit of a
> question, in the decker comments, as to the truth of the intel presented.
> Most folks took the description of the Stonewall as gospel and disregarded
> the contrary decker comments. But since no hard stats have ever been
> given, well, it's up to each GM to decide what is truth.
>
> Erik J.
>
> URL almost here...
Were there anymore stats givein for the Stonewall in other publications?
--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy
Message no. 2
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:23:46 EDT
> > >Really? Where did this come from guy? I have never heard that one, and
> it's
> > >never been put someplace where most of the gamers can reach it.

I believe Jon Setzo said something about it after a discussion with FASA's
DLOH Mike. To date it has never been printed in a book, but give them time :)


-El Bandit

http://members.aol.com/elbandit/index.html

Reason #173 to fear technology:

() () () () () <() <()> ()> ()
.I. \|. \|/ // X \ | <| <|>
/\ >\ /< >\ /< >\ /< >\
/<

The ASCII Macarena
Message no. 3
From: Jon Szeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:57:56 EDT
<Questions about the Stonewall snipped>

The "sorta-official" answer is that the Stonewall, as presented in the RBB,
doesn't (or didn't) exist. Mike didn't like it, and I didn't like it (though
we both hated it for different reasons), and since there weren't any actual
stats provided for it, I didn't feel obliged to include it.

Here's the answer that Mike gave regarding the Stonewall. Since the question
was e-mailed by one person, the answer went to one person, which may probably
explain why the answer isn't well known.

-- Jon

-----------------------------

Subj: Rigger 2 and updated vehicle information
Date: 97-11-05 13:19:39 EST
From: FASA Mike
To: tyros@****.net, FASA Info, JonSzeto


In a message dated 11/4/97 12:20:05 PM, you wrote:

>Are there updated statistics for the Stonewall MBT in the Rigger Black
>
>Book? I would like them for basis of comparison as upper limits for
>
>vehicles and weapon design. Thanks.
>

The Stonewall was never was produced. It seems it was nothing more than a hoax
by the CAS military to keep other govenemtns and runners on their toes by
making them think the CAS had a higher technology curve then they did. Time
proved that the CAS did not the ability to manufacture such a vehicle, this
allowed the CAS to import other SOTA designs and catch up with the rest of
North America strictly by purchasing everything. They played a bluff and won.

As for the upper limits of design. That is something that can only be
determined at the game table, by each group and GM.

I hope this helps...

Have Fun!
Play Games!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com
Message no. 4
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:10:30 -0400
Once upon a time, Jon Szeto wrote;

><Questions about the Stonewall snipped>
>
>The "sorta-official" answer is that the Stonewall, as presented in the RBB,
>doesn't (or didn't) exist. Mike didn't like it, and I didn't like it (though
>we both hated it for different reasons), and since there weren't any actual
>stats provided for it, I didn't feel obliged to include it.
>
>Here's the answer that Mike gave regarding the Stonewall. Since the question
>was e-mailed by one person, the answer went to one person, which may probably
>explain why the answer isn't well known.

<snip>
Damn Yankee UCAS propaganda!
Thinks the South isn't capable of anything.

<Cartman>
Screw you guys, I'm going home!

eh,

Screw you, home.
</Cartman>

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23
Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:00:00 EDT
In a message dated 7/13/98 8:58:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
JonSzeto@***.COM writes:

> <Questions about the Stonewall snipped>
>
> The "sorta-official" answer is that the Stonewall, as presented in the
RBB,
> doesn't (or didn't) exist. Mike didn't like it, and I didn't like it
(though
> we both hated it for different reasons), and since there weren't any actual
> stats provided for it, I didn't feel obliged to include it.
>
> Here's the answer that Mike gave regarding the Stonewall. Since the
question
> was e-mailed by one person, the answer went to one person, which may
> probably
> explain why the answer isn't well known.
>

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!

We liked the damn things far too much ...

(Crying and screaming noises in the background)

-Mike
Message no. 6
From: BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:56:25 -0400
MC23 wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, Jon Szeto wrote;
>
> ><Questions about the Stonewall snipped>
> >
> >The "sorta-official" answer is that the Stonewall, as presented in the
RBB,
> >doesn't (or didn't) exist. Mike didn't like it, and I didn't like it (though
> >we both hated it for different reasons), and since there weren't any actual
> >stats provided for it, I didn't feel obliged to include it.
> >
> >Here's the answer that Mike gave regarding the Stonewall. Since the question
> >was e-mailed by one person, the answer went to one person, which may probably
> >explain why the answer isn't well known.
>
> <snip>
> Damn Yankee UCAS propaganda!
> Thinks the South isn't capable of anything.
>
Well that sux. Sweet ass LAV and no stats! What hooey!

--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy
Message no. 7
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 01:46:47 EDT
In a message dated 7/13/98 8:59:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
JonSzeto@***.com writes:

> The "sorta-official" answer is that the Stonewall, as presented in the RBB,
> doesn't (or didn't) exist. Mike didn't like it, and I didn't like it
(though
> we both hated it for different reasons), and since there weren't any actual
> stats provided for it, I didn't feel obliged to include it.
>
> Here's the answer that Mike gave regarding the Stonewall. Since the
question
> was e-mailed by one person, the answer went to one person, which may
> probably
> explain why the answer isn't well known.
>
<snipped Mr. DLoH's reply to the reason the Stonewall stats are not presented>

Okay, now I've seen almost everything in this game. I realize that
misinformation campaigns have existed for years in RL, but on the level of the
potential for a "CAS Heavy Panzer" kind of strikes me odd. It's kind of like
the stories of the Stealth Fighter that remained unconfirmed, but undenied, at
the same time. Then voila, there they are, in full action. Or the Stealth
-anything-, there are always slip throughs.

I suppose with the Stonewall being "non-existent", it could lend itself to
some fairly interesting twists to people's campaigns, should they choose to
accept that "fact" that it doesn't exist.

I know that we are NOT going to be going with that option here for some
reason. An entire PBEM would vanish in a thought out second.

Too bad really, it's probably just another of those things where a lot of
people are going to disagree with FASA (and Mike) again...

-K
Message no. 8
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:38:20 -0600
At 23:00 13/07/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!
>
>We liked the damn things far too much ...
>
>(Crying and screaming noises in the background)

So play with it in your game. Who really cares what Mike or Jon thinks?
It's your game, you paid the money for it, so do with it whatever you like.

This isn't meant as a slight on anyone who writes for FASA (As I do like
the majority of the stuff they put out), but if they do something I don't
like, I'm damn well going to fix it so I do like it. That *is* the point of
an RPG afterall -- to be creative and have fun, not to be restricted by
what others say. I'm sure FASA would agree :-)

-Adam J

-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:06:18 +0100
BigDaddy said on 14:53/13 Jul 98,...

> Were there anymore stats givein for the Stonewall in other publications?

Not AFAIK. Creating them based on Rigger 2 might also prove a
bit difficult, as there is no data for any of the weapons, and I also
doubt an LAV MBT would be based on the same chassis as a scout
LAV such as the GMC Banshee. Unless MBTs in the 2050s are
equivalent to light tanks of today...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"That's IT, lunchbox!!! We'll go to Shermer, Illinois!"
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:14:21 -0400
At 10:10 PM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote:

><snip>
>Damn Yankee UCAS propaganda!
> Thinks the South isn't capable of anything.

Actually MC23, the way I read it, the South was capable of deceiving the
UCAS and the Azzies and all the other governments and megacorps, not to
mention all the shadowrunners. Bought them enough time to actually
purchase their way to the SOTA. That's pretty damn slick if you ask me.

><Cartman>
>Screw you guys, I'm going home!
>
>eh,
>
>Screw you, home.
></Cartman>

Ever seen a very openly and stereotypically gay man do that line? A friend
of a friend did that a little while back and I fell out of my chair
laughing and I wasn't the only one. It was that sort of "catty" that only
an openly gay man can do...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:25:11 -0500
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:14:21 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 10:10 PM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>><snip>
>>Damn Yankee UCAS propaganda!
>> Thinks the South isn't capable of anything.

>Actually MC23, the way I read it, the South was capable of deceiving the
>UCAS and the Azzies and all the other governments and megacorps, not to
>mention all the shadowrunners. Bought them enough time to actually
>purchase their way to the SOTA. That's pretty damn slick if you ask me.

Actually, I get the feeling that FASA has a negative image of the South
... but maybe that's just because I live in Texas :) I think I'll whip
out R2, load up my spreadsheet (sorry James, The Shop is cool but I
prefer my spreadsheet :) and make up some stats and post them to the
list.

>><Cartman>
>>Screw you guys, I'm going home!
>>
>>eh,
>>
>>Screw you, home.
>></Cartman>

>Ever seen a very openly and stereotypically gay man do that line? A
friend
>of a friend did that a little while back and I fell out of my chair
>laughing and I wasn't the only one. It was that sort of "catty" that
only
>an openly gay man can do...
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

I wish I could have heard that. :)

D.Ghost (Who wishes FASA had just decided that the Stonewall was
exagerated not non-existant ...)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 12
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:05:14 -0400
Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>At 10:10 PM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>Damn Yankee UCAS propaganda!
>> Thinks the South isn't capable of anything.
>
>Actually MC23, the way I read it, the South was capable of deceiving the
>UCAS and the Azzies and all the other governments and megacorps, not to
>mention all the shadowrunners. Bought them enough time to actually
>purchase their way to the SOTA. That's pretty damn slick if you ask me.

I don't buy that behind SOTA crap. There's enough paranoia being
next to Aztlan to warrant overfunding of such a product. The South
lagging behind, right. Does Kitty Hawk mean anything. B>P#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:12:08 +1000
MC23 writes:
> I don't buy that behind SOTA crap. There's enough paranoia being
> next to Aztlan to warrant overfunding of such a product. The South
> lagging behind, right. Does Kitty Hawk mean anything. B>P#

I can buy the CAS being behind the SOTA. They went through a very turbulent
time, politically, during the secession, and they would have lost access to
all the military research being done by Washington (very little of which,
today, is in the southern states, and it's likely to be that way in SR prior
to the split). They would have had to scramble to re-establish the research,
as well as trying to lure some corps back (if Ares wasn't based in the CAS,
this would have been a lot harder). Hard to do during political upheaval,
you know. Furthermore, the priority wouldn't have been too much on tech for
a while... Aztlan wouldn't have reached technological parity with the CAS
until fairly recently, given the sorry state of Mexico at the time of the
NAN uprising (not much better than it is today). They would have focused on
the magical stuff. And as for paranoia about Aztlan, then I would say that's
STILL where the focus would be.

And Kitty Hawk doesn't mean much to me besides the Wright Brothers.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 14
From: Barbie <barbie@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:19:25 +0100
At 14-Jul-98 wrote Mike Bobroff:

>>

>Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!

>We liked the damn things far too much ...

>(Crying and screaming noises in the background)

>-Mike

And what will hinder you this from using the Stonewall i your game?
Me will it definetly not hinder from using it.


--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"I am Microsoft of Borg. The superiority of other products is irrelevant."

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:12:01 -0400
Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>Actually MC23, the way I read it, the South was capable of deceiving the
>UCAS and the Azzies and all the other governments and megacorps, not to
>mention all the shadowrunners. Bought them enough time to actually
>purchase their way to the SOTA. That's pretty damn slick if you ask me.

One more thing, 'Bought them enough time to actually purchase their
way to the SOTA'. The South has a great economy, they didn't need time to
buy anything!

Screw the war with Atzlan I've been pushing for, I want a war with
UCAS for being self centered egotiscal bastards and to show them they are
not the center of the universe!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23
Message no. 16
From: John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:56:48 -0400
>Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;
<Snip>
>>Bought them enough time to actually
>>purchase their way to the SOTA. That's pretty damn slick if you ask
>>me.
> One more thing, 'Bought them enough time to actually purchase >their
way to the SOTA'. The South has a great economy, they didn't >need time to
buy anything!

I agree with MC23 here, the South's economy is just fine. And as for being
behind the Military SOTA, ever here of Lockheed? One of it's main design
and production facilities is in Marietta, Ga. right next to Dobbins AFB.
The majority of the remaining military bases are in the South, as well as a
major proportion of the personnel being Southern. I think that the CAS
would be in a better position (based of current proportions) than the UCAS
or any of the NAN. What did you think happened, they seceded and then just
GAVE all that hardware back. Don't think so.

> Screw the war with Atzlan I've been pushing for, I want a war >with
UCAS for being self centered egotiscal bastards and to show them >they are
not the center of the universe!

Yeah, this time we'll whip those yella bellied yankees. Everybody knows
were the center of the universe.

Jester
Message no. 17
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:41:04 EDT
In a message dated 14/07/98 20:05:45 Central Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> I don't buy that behind SOTA crap. There's enough paranoia being
> next to Aztlan to warrant overfunding of such a product. The South
> lagging behind, right. Does Kitty Hawk mean anything. B>P#

Weren't the Wright brothers from Ohio, or Indiana?

Nexx
Message no. 18
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:52:50 EDT
In a message dated 14/07/98 20:35:15 Central Daylight Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> Screw the war with Atzlan I've been pushing for, I want a war with
> UCAS for being self centered egotiscal bastards and to show them they are
> not the center of the universe!

<g> But to show us that, it would have to be true, MC...

Nexx, who divides his time between Texas and Kansas
Message no. 19
From: Geoff Morochnick <bodiam@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:32:17 -0400
> >><snip>
> >>Damn Yankee UCAS propaganda!
> >> Thinks the South isn't capable of anything.
> >
> >Actually MC23, the way I read it, the South was capable of deceiving the
> >UCAS and the Azzies and all the other governments and megacorps, not to
> >mention all the shadowrunners. Bought them enough time to actually
> >purchase their way to the SOTA. That's pretty damn slick if you ask me.
>
> I don't buy that behind SOTA crap. There's enough paranoia being
> next to Aztlan to warrant overfunding of such a product. The South
> lagging behind, right. Does Kitty Hawk mean anything. B>P#

Yes, as a matter of fact, it does... a couple of guys from Ohio went to a
beach in North Carolina to prove their northern ingenuity in a nice climate.
(Reminiscent of the RTP, nowadays)

> I am MC23

--
An Ohio Native stranded in North Carolina,
Stonebow
The great questions of the day will not be settled by
means of speeches and majority decisions, but by iron and blood.
- Chancellor Otto Van Bismarck
bodiam@**********.com
http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/8427
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:07:40 -0400
At 06:05 PM 7/14/98 -0400, you wrote:

> I don't buy that behind SOTA crap. There's enough paranoia being
>next to Aztlan to warrant overfunding of such a product. The South
>lagging behind, right. Does Kitty Hawk mean anything. B>P#

Kitty Hawk was where a couple of brothers from Dayton, Ohio tested out
their first airplane many decades ago. Old news, totally irrelevant.

Let's look at a few things here. The South is not a known industrial or
research region. It's known for stuff like cotton, Florida retirement
homes and Mardi Gras in New Orleans. It's not and has never been seen as a
major industrial powerhouse. Agriculture is what the world sees coming out
of the South.

The North on the other hand has always had the factories and the industrial
strength and know-how. Hell, in the Civil War the South had more troops,
but the North was able to supply their troops better and more consistently.

Project that same sort of perception/reality into 205X Shadowrun. It still
works.

The CAS received more soldiers, toys and bases in the secession. But the
UCAS kept the more advanced toys and had a megacorp backing it, in it's
backyard (Ares). It also was far better able to handle the secession from
a economic/political standpoint. The CAS had to build a federal government
from scratch. That's consuming in both time and money. The UCAS had all
it's systems in place, it just lost a chunk of land and tax revenue.

So I really don't honestly think it was an insult to the South nor
unrealistic for FASA to have portrayed it as it has, Southern patriotism
aside (speaking of which, I didn't think you had any Johnny Reb in you
MC23; I thought you more advanced than that, no insult intended).

And personally, I find it far more amazing that the CAS was able to pull
off that massive disinformation campaign than if they had actually built
the Stonewall. Keeping something secret in an Information Age for the
better part of a decade? That's impressive. What else have they kept secret?

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 21
From: Barbie <barbie@********.DE>
Subject: Re: Stats for Stonewall (was CAS)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:04:32 +0100
At 14-Jul-98 wrote K is the Symbol:



>Too bad really, it's probably just another of those things where a lot of
>people are going to disagree with FASA (and Mike) again...

I wonder what lead you to this idea....

--

-Barbie

---------------------------------------------------------------
"I am Microsoft of Borg. The superiority of other products is irrelevant."

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------

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