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Message no. 1
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:48:46 -0400
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Matb wrote:

> Divergent comment: How about limiting max increase of stats? I've
> never seen someone go from, say, Body 1 (frail) to Body 6 (he-man)...
> barring steroids and Glenn Danzig, of course.
>
Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high skills
and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it had
not been their weakness.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:07:00 MST
> Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
>maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
>can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
>think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
>games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
>lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high skills
>and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it had
>not been their weakness.

That's a good idea, but I might allow more growth for the mental stats.
Maybe staggerd with age. That is, the older the character gets, the higher
potential their mental stats can be. Course most runners don't get to an
old age.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 3
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 14:32:53 -0400
On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, Denzil Kruse wrote:

> > Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
> >maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
> >can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
> >think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
> >games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
> >lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high skills
> >and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it had
> >not been their weakness.
>
> That's a good idea, but I might allow more growth for the mental stats.
> Maybe staggerd with age. That is, the older the character gets, the higher
> potential their mental stats can be. Course most runners don't get to an
> old age.

More leeway for mental stats might be a good idea, BUT I think we have a
tendency to overdo the effect of old age. AFAIK, there is precious little
connection between a person's age and mental attributes. It might have
been true in the old ages of AD$D, where Wisdom was a stat, but in SR, no.
In fact, if we want to factor old age in mental attributes, it would
probably LOWER them, both for physical and mental attributes. Senility
would lower both Intelligence and willpower, plus it is a well known fact
that adults have a tougher time lerning new things than young people.

In fact, thinking about it, I dont think is it anymore realistic to say
that dumb people can become geniuses than to say that weak people can
become strong? Just as I can see someone go from very weak to average, I
might see very dumbto average, in, I think, just about the same
proportions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:56:51 -0500
> > Divergent comment: How about limiting max increase of stats? I've
> > never seen someone go from, say, Body 1 (frail) to Body 6 (he-man)...
> > barring steroids and Glenn Danzig, of course.

Yeah, one to six is pretty silly, but I'd sooner just tell the player that
(s)he's silly and ridicule their character. :)

The rule that we've used is that each stat can only be raised once per
game year. By the time your character has been around that long, you can
see better things to put your karma into. My first karma always winds up
in stats, and I always think about how good my skills could be if I hadn't
wasted it.

Tim Serpas
wretch@**.com
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 15:11:10 -0600
Denzil Kruse wrote:
|
| That's a good idea, but I might allow more growth for the mental stats.
| Maybe staggerd with age. That is, the older the character gets, the higher
| potential their mental stats can be. Course most runners don't get to an
| old age.

I hate to tell you this, but that's reversed. The younger someone is
the greater their potential for high intelligence. Charisma, on the
other hand, is a function of experience.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:47:57 -0400
>> Divergent comment: How about limiting max increase of stats? I've
>> never seen someone go from, say, Body 1 (frail) to Body 6 (he-man)...
>> barring steroids and Glenn Danzig, of course.
> Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
>maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
>can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
>think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
>games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
>lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high skills
>and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it had
>not been their weakness.

I use Stats so often as a GM that most of my players start with fairly high
ones....and they all have too many things to spend Karma on to focus on just
one. :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 7
From: Benjamin Pflugmann
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 00:53:55 +0100
> Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
> maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
> can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
> think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
> games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
> lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high skills
> and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it had
> not been their weakness.

Hm. We have another house rule: Before increasing any stat ONE point, one
have to spent as much karma on other things (spells, skills, ...) as one has
spent points to the stats (or was is skills?) at charakter creation. (That's
24 for my charcter, for example).

So the start with "start with low stats and high skills" bug is solved.

Bye,

Benjamin.

--
pfb08188@*****.physik.uni-regensburg.de
benjamin@*****.leibniz.in-passau.de
Message no. 8
From: "Q (not from Star Trek)" <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 18:54:39 -0500
On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> Denzil Kruse wrote:
> |
> | That's a good idea, but I might allow more growth for the mental stats.
> | Maybe staggerd with age. That is, the older the character gets, the higher
> | potential their mental stats can be. Course most runners don't get to an
> | old age.
>
> I hate to tell you this, but that's reversed. The younger someone is
> the greater their potential for high intelligence. Charisma, on the
> other hand, is a function of experience.

Well...wouldn't that depend on how you define charisma? If charisma is
looks, I would say that in most cases it goes down with age. Even if
charisma is not equated with looks, it could, in a lot of cases, go down
as people become grouchy/crabby/grumpy in their old age. If anything were
to go up with age, I'd probably say willpower, since older people do have
a tendency to become more stubborn and set in their ways.

-Q

---------------------------------------
I dislike Windows95 for the same reason people dislike New Coke
It tastes disgustingly like Pepsi.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 9
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:00:40 -0700
----------
> From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
> Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
> maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
> can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
> think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
> games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
> lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high
skills
> and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it
had
> not been their weakness.

Caric and I have been discussing something similar for our group. What I'm
considering is more of a progression over time approach, rather than flat
out limitation. Right now what I like is an idea of each attribute or skill
can only be raised once per every 100 karma points awarded.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 10
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:20:51 GMT
MENARD Steve writes

> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Matb wrote:
>
> > Divergent comment: How about limiting max increase of stats? I've
> > never seen someone go from, say, Body 1 (frail) to Body 6 (he-man)...
> > barring steroids and Glenn Danzig, of course.
> >
> Yep, Exactly what we did. The way we play it, a character's own "racial
> maximum" for a stat is 2 points higher than what he started out with. He
> can still go 1.5 times beyond, but itll cost him an arm and a leg! :) I
> think its 3 or 4 times the karma after 2 points. Work very well in our
> games and puts back some value in high stats priority. Before, it cost a
> lot less to buy stats than skills, so most people started with high skills
> and low stats. A couple of run later, their stats where high, as if it had
> not been their weakness.
>
Sounds ok.

What i've been doing for quite a while now is charging.
1st increase : FASA cost
2nd double FASA cost
3rd tripple FASA cost

which makes turning a 3 into a 6, 4 + 10 + 18, ouch and makes beyond
racial maximum stats really expensive unless they started at the
maximum. It seems to work, mundanes that really rate stats as
important can develop them but you don't see 1's becoming 4's in
about 5 seconds flat for a measely 9 karma!

This stat/skill cost imbalance is the princial problem with the
points based character creation system, attributes are 2points a no
point, and skills 1/point while after startup skills are twice as
expensive as attributes. As it happens all combinations of mundane
Human (ABC combos) come out about 100 points even so but magicians
with low resources can gain 10 to even 15 building points to spend
after equalling what they would have gotten being built as priority
based characters.

Mark
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:31:25 -0600
I've noticed that my own "stats" will go downhill if I don't work on
them (gained 15 pounds over the winter holidays :(. About 6 years ago
I also had a run in with depression and my willpower dropped
considerably (I'm much better know :). Anyway, this has got me
thinking about applying SOTA-like rules to stats. Once a character has
increased their strength to 6, they better spend a lot of time maintaining
that (spending Karma). Ditto for Body and Quickness. Intelligence
wouldn't require much maintenance (if any). Willpower would require some
(by taking time out for "quality time"). And Charisma would require some
too. Aside from the fact that this could become a bookkeeping nightmare,
what are your thoughts?

BTW, I realize that this is on the unrealistic side, but I just
wanted to throw it out there and see what kind of feedback I get :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 07:14:47 -0600
Q wrote:
|
| On Wed, 16 Apr 1997, David Buehrer wrote:
|
| > I hate to tell you this, but that's reversed. The younger someone is
| > the greater their potential for high intelligence. Charisma, on the
| > other hand, is a function of experience.
|
| Well...wouldn't that depend on how you define charisma? If charisma is
| looks, I would say that in most cases it goes down with age. Even if
| charisma is not equated with looks, it could, in a lot of cases, go down
| as people become grouchy/crabby/grumpy in their old age. If anything were
| to go up with age, I'd probably say willpower, since older people do have
| a tendency to become more stubborn and set in their ways.

Oops, I should have added "in general". IMO charisma is defined by
how well you know how to manipulate people and/or how well you know
yourself. Hitler (sorry Germans, but he's a good example) was a
manipulator. Ghandi was a combination (that starvation thing was
manipulation). And... <scratches head> hmmmm ! Opra knows who she
is (okay, she also manipulates, but it's her level of self confidence
and self esteem that stands out to me). The manipulator drags people
along, and the "enlightened" person naturally draws people. Note, a
manipulator can appear to be an enlightened person.

IMO, these to abilities can be improved over time if one takes the
intitiative to do so. However, there are naturals. And as for those
grumpy old farts, they've got a pretty high charisma. They just use
it to drive people away (isn't that right Spike ;)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 13
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:01:00 MST
>Denzil Kruse wrote:
>|
>| That's a good idea, but I might allow more growth for the mental stats.
>| Maybe staggerd with age. That is, the older the character gets, the
higher
>| potential their mental stats can be. Course most runners don't get to an
>| old age.
>
>I hate to tell you this, but that's reversed. The younger someone is
>the greater their potential for high intelligence. Charisma, on the
>other hand, is a function of experience.
>
>-David

And experience is generally a function of age. I think wisdom and empathy
with other people would go up with age as well, as you are exposed to more
situations and different kinds of people. Younger people are generally more
adaptable to new learning situations, but older people are more familiar
with their intelligence and how it works, and can make more out of it.
Towards the very end of the life cycle, senility and what not can set in,
but there is still a long time span where they can function very well. I
could be wrong about this, just my somewhat ignorant opinion.

I do remember from history that most of the true geniuses of the times did
all their best work when they were pretty young: before they hit 25. But
those are extreme examples of youth intelligence.

>Well...wouldn't that depend on how you define charisma? If charisma is
>looks, I would say that in most cases it goes down with age. Even if
>charisma is not equated with looks, it could, in a lot of cases, go down
>as people become grouchy/crabby/grumpy in their old age. If anything were
>to go up with age, I'd probably say willpower, since older people do have
>a tendency to become more stubborn and set in their ways.
>
>-Q

I don't remember offhand exactly how Shadowrun defines it, but I think it
the same as AD&D. That is, good looks really aren't a big part of it. It
is your ability to empathize with and influence other people. You can
figure out social situations very well, and know how to work people to get
them to do what you want.

I seems to me in my culture (America) that a lot of old people just kind of
fade out. Our culture doesn't seem to want them anymore, and they become
just how you two are describing them: set in their ways, rusting away both
physically and mentally, crabby and grouchy, sitting in front of the tube
watching Lawrence Welk and smelling of mothballs, and forgetting how to
operate an oven properly.

But I also know some old folks that are still alive and quite sharp. A
shadowrunner or wily corp executive would be the same way. Stimulated and
challenged their whole life, they haven't fallen into unchangeable ways, but
definitely follow a general pattern. They can still adapt, not quite as
well as younger folks, but have a long history of experiences they can draw
upon. Almost any situation they encounter has been faced before.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think that age automatically makes you wise.
I think a lot of people overestimate the effects of age because most people
just kind of drift through the years. It depends on how you spend the time.
Most player characters, almost by definition, are the unusual kind of
person that wouldn't fall into that rut (unless the player wants him to).

So, I think that mental attributes have the potential to increase as you get
older. Some people have mentioned changing a stat only every 100 Karma is
earned, which is the same idea: you have spent your time living on the edge.
This 100 K rule, perhaps a better one, comes from the other direction.
Taking the experience and dividing it by time. In a very lucky and active
year, you could earn 100 Karma, or you could earn it over 5 years.

I didn't mean to wax philosophic, and could probably be off base here, but
it makes sense to me. Probably make more sense in a couple decades ;-)

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 14
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 15:30:17 -0700
> I've noticed that my own "stats" will go downhill if I don't work on
> them (gained 15 pounds over the winter holidays :(. About 6 years ago
> I also had a run in with depression and my willpower dropped
> considerably (I'm much better know :). Anyway, this has got me
> thinking about applying SOTA-like rules to stats. Once a character has
> increased their strength to 6, they better spend a lot of time
maintaining
> that (spending Karma). Ditto for Body and Quickness. Intelligence
> wouldn't require much maintenance (if any). Willpower would require some
> (by taking time out for "quality time"). And Charisma would require some
> too. Aside from the fact that this could become a bookkeeping nightmare,
> what are your thoughts?

Well I would completely agree that in real life physical condition will
deteriorate over time if not maintained, but Shadowrunners as a general
rule are fairly active people, so I would imagine that they should not need
too much additional exercise to maintain good health. I know as a player
of mages that they are karmic black holes as it is without having to spend
karma to maintain atts. In short I agree with what you are saying, but
think that game mechanics wise it would be a tad harsh.

> BTW, I realize that this is on the unrealistic side, but I just
> wanted to throw it out there and see what kind of feedback I get :)

See above. =)


-Caric

"One cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."
-Albert Einstein
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stats Limitations (was Re: Skill Limitations)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 12:29:53 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:31/17 Apr 97...

> Anyway, this has got me thinking about applying SOTA-like rules to
> stats. Once a character has increased their strength to 6, they better
> spend a lot of time maintaining that (spending Karma). Ditto for Body
> and Quickness. Intelligence wouldn't require much maintenance (if any).
> Willpower would require some (by taking time out for "quality time").
> And Charisma would require some too. Aside from the fact that this
> could become a bookkeeping nightmare, what are your thoughts?

Don't do it... Like you say, it's a bookkeeping nightmare, and I don't
think it's something that will come up in many games anyway, because a lot
of them don't run for the time needed to pay upkeep (gods, that's a M:TG
term...) for your stats. A better way to do this, I think, would be like
other people suggested recently, and reduce them at a fixed age -- sort of
like in AD&D, where you lose something off certain stats when you reach
middle or old age.

Also, if you do this for stats, then do it for skills as well: if a
character doesn't use a skill for X months, reduce it by a point. Then
allow them to pay less than full Karma to bring it back up to its original
rating -- which represents the "oh yeah, it went like _that_" factor that
makes re-learning something easier than learning it for the first time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Do you remember, when you were someone else?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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