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Message no. 1
From: J. Keith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:11:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Centering


> Personally, I hate the open test rule as it's MUCH too
> random for my liking.
>
> If you use it, though, to partially compensate for the
> random nature, I'd suggest adding the result of the
> centering test (or half the result) to the result of
> the open test instead of adding more dice.

Personally, I agree with Doc' in that the Stealth rules as they stand are
just not right. In almost every other instance that I can think of, the
"Open Test" was removed from the SR3 game mechanics with the exception of
the Magic Loss test (which isn't quite the same mechanics even).

To us, the Stealth rolls are often against a given target number. Be that
Intelligence of the guards, the Perceptive quality of a guard animal, the
sensors/security rating of an installation (it makes those "Physical
Security" values in the corporate books have meaning actually) far more
fluent and consistent with regards to game mechanics.

And besides, the target numbers now exist for someone to spot/see an
intruder. Signature (Sensors) or "4" (Individual or Critter). Then you can
apply more easily the applicable means of stuff, such as Camouflage skills
(as a preplanning skill test against the security rating you are performing
the insertion/invasion into, with net successes improving the
Signature/Perception target number base in most accounts) or Ruthie Suits
(which are a target modifier anyway).

And yes, this means I'm around again ...
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to some...)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 2
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:53:29 -0400
Around 02:11 AM 5/25/00 , J. Keith Henry was mumbling about:
>Subject: Re: Centering
>
>
> > Personally, I hate the open test rule as it's MUCH too
> > random for my liking.
> >
> > If you use it, though, to partially compensate for the
> > random nature, I'd suggest adding the result of the
> > centering test (or half the result) to the result of
> > the open test instead of adding more dice.
>
>Personally, I agree with Doc' in that the Stealth rules as they stand are
>just not right. In almost every other instance that I can think of, the
>"Open Test" was removed from the SR3 game mechanics with the exception of
>the Magic Loss test (which isn't quite the same mechanics even).
>
>To us, the Stealth rolls are often against a given target number. Be that
>Intelligence of the guards, the Perceptive quality of a guard animal, the
>sensors/security rating of an installation (it makes those "Physical
>Security" values in the corporate books have meaning actually) far more
>fluent and consistent with regards to game mechanics.

For a general Stealth roll made for sneaking around, we use a base target
number of 4. This is modified by wound modifiers, penalties for sustaining
spells, terrain (harder to stealth over dry leaves) and any other modifier
that the GM thinks would apply. Vision mods do not apply, as long as the
character can see well enough to see where they place their feet. Count the
number of successes.

>And besides, the target numbers now exist for someone to spot/see an
>intruder. Signature (Sensors) or "4" (Individual or Critter). Then you can
>apply more easily the applicable means of stuff, such as Camouflage skills
>(as a preplanning skill test against the security rating you are performing
>the insertion/invasion into, with net successes improving the
>Signature/Perception target number base in most accounts) or Ruthie Suits
>(which are a target modifier anyway).

Base target number for a Perception Test is either 4 for an individual and
the signature for a sensor. This is modified by appropriate Camouflage,
camo skill (every 2 successes add 1), +2 for no movement, and any modifiers
that affect skill test. Note the number of successes.

Compare the number of successes on the stealth test to the perception test.
If the perceiver has more successes than the stealther, he notices the
person stealthing. If he has less successes on the perception test than the
stealth test, he notices something, but he's not sure what. He can decide
to either ignore it, or make another perception test, adding +2 to the test
for trying the same thing twice. Add any further successes that he gets to
his original total. If he still doesn't have more successes than on the
stealth test, then he decides that it was nothing. If he does get more
successes than the stealth total, he takes a closer look and then does
notice what is going on.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 3
From: Wavy Davy ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 17:16:46 +0100 (BST)
On Thu, 25 May 2000, J. Keith Henry wrote:

> just not right. In almost every other instance that I can think of, the
> "Open Test" was removed from the SR3 game mechanics with the exception of
> the Magic Loss test (which isn't quite the same mechanics even).

What about interrogation/intimidation rolls? :)

[snip stealth rules]

Makes a lot of sense to me. Less erratic. Open test could only be
relied upon to either fail miserably and end up with TN5, or end up
with TN's of 20+!

--
Wavy Davy (who shares wins)
...To us, it might look like just a rag. But to the brave, embattled men of
the fort, it was more than that. It was a flag of surrender. And after that,
it was torn up and used for shoe-shine rags, so the men would look nice for
the surrender.
Message no. 4
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:04:56 -0500
NeoJudas ("K" to some...) said-
:Personally, I agree with Doc' in that the Stealth rules as they stand are
:just not right. In almost every other instance that I can think of, the
:"Open Test" was removed from the SR3 game mechanics with the exception of
:the Magic Loss test (which isn't quite the same mechanics even).

I don't recall seeing open tests at all in Sr2 (at least, not the base
book)- if they are there, thier use is very minor.
On the other hand, Sr3 does explicitely use open tests in multiple
places- stealth, interogation, intimidation, certain rigger tests (manuever
score), certain matrix tests (noticing an icon). How was it "removed from
the mechanics"?
If anything, the use of open tests, if not brand new in Sr3, seems quite
expanded compared to Sr2.

And, by the by, what's the relation between "Roll 2d6 and add them
together" and "roll a variable number of dice and pick the highest single
one"? How in heck did you pick THAT as the one "exception" where open
tests
are still used (sort of)?

Mongoose

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Message no. 5
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:32:08 GMT
>From: Wavy Davy <ctysmd@***.leeds.ac.uk>
> Makes a lot of sense to me. Less erratic. Open test could only be
> relied upon to either fail miserably and end up with TN5, or end up
> with TN's of 20+!

*Phil smiles because he knows which adept Wavy was thinking of when he wrote
that*

Phil
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Message no. 6
From: JKeith Henry neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:03:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Stealth (Re: Centering)


> I don't recall seeing open tests at all in Sr2 (at least, not the base
> book)- if they are there, thier use is very minor.
> On the other hand, Sr3 does explicitely use open tests in multiple
> places- stealth, interogation, intimidation, certain rigger tests
(manuever
> score), certain matrix tests (noticing an icon). How was it "removed from
> the mechanics"?
> If anything, the use of open tests, if not brand new in Sr3, seems
quite
> expanded compared to Sr2.

Hmmm ... the noticing an icon is the same as a "Stealth" if we think about
it, I don't recall Interrogation tests so it slipped my mind, Intimidation
is the same way probably. I refuse to use the maneuver score rules for
Riggers/Rigging so that explains that being forgotten.

And considering that the majority of SR3 still relies on resisted tests of
some kind, the point still stands nicely IMO.

> And, by the by, what's the relation between "Roll 2d6 and add them
> together" and "roll a variable number of dice and pick the highest single
> one"? How in heck did you pick THAT as the one "exception" where open
tests
> are still used (sort of)?

You really shouldn't be asking that, it gets too personal ... ;-)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 7
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:25:39 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Thu, 25 May 2000, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

>
> I don't recall seeing open tests at all in Sr2 (at least, not the base
> book)- if they are there, thier use is very minor.

Actually the open test was introduced in Shadowbeat. It was used for
rating the performance of bands and reporters.

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Stealth (Re: Centering)
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 20:16:19 +0200
According to Peter Kristiansen, at 10:25 on 26 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> Actually the open test was introduced in Shadowbeat. It was used for
> rating the performance of bands and reporters.

And nothing else until SR3 came out. Shadowbeat was the only set of rules
that made use of this mechanic, even after SRII came out. IMHO it's one of
the best inventions in SR, when applied to stuff for which it'll work, of
course...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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