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Message no. 1
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:04:18 -0500
>
> > But sometimes Street Index is less than the retail price, anyway... :)
>
> Sure, but that's for stuff that's easy to get on the streets. MOST stuff
> is actually more expensive once Street Index is factored in.
>

Yeah, but most of that stuff is not needed by the general population. For
normal living equipment- food, hygenic supplies, etc. there is no mark-up.
Even some weapons and armor are available at list price or less.

Street index, however, should be applied to every item, no matter where
or by whom it is bought. Basically, the list price is what one would pay
if you bought the item directly from the manufacturer. Street index, IMHO,
reflects the number of middle men who need to make a profit off the sale
of the item. For most common things, this number is pretty low, but for
more rare items, it is higher. For illegal items, the street index is
usually quite high.

The street index also applies to legal purchases because it reflects the
expected increase in price due to the novelty of an item. For example, a
top-of-the-line computer is going to cost signifigantly more than one that
has been on the market for 2 years, even though they may cost nearly the
same to produce.
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:27:24 -0500
> From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
> Date: Sunday, March 08, 1998 11:04 PM

<Snip>

> Street index, however, should be applied to every item, no matter where
> or by whom it is bought. Basically, the list price is what one would pay
> if you bought the item directly from the manufacturer. Street index,
IMHO,
> reflects the number of middle men who need to make a profit off the sale
> of the item. For most common things, this number is pretty low, but for
> more rare items, it is higher. For illegal items, the street index is
> usually quite high.

> The street index also applies to legal purchases because it reflects the
> expected increase in price due to the novelty of an item. For example, a
> top-of-the-line computer is going to cost signifigantly more than one
that
> has been on the market for 2 years, even though they may cost nearly the
> same to produce.

Actually, the above information is incorrect according to the canon rules.

BBB Pg. 236:

"All prices are MSRP (manufacturer's suggested retail price)."

and

BBB Pg. 184:

"Associated with Availability is the Street Index, which affects the price
of the item if purchased through the shadow or gray markets."

Thus, according to the standard rules, Street Index does NOT apply to legal
purchases. Also, the list price is the retail price, NOT the price of
purchasing the item directly from the manufacturer.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Justin
Message no. 3
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:47:51 -0500
> Actually, the above information is incorrect according to the canon rules.
>
> BBB Pg. 236:
>
> "All prices are MSRP (manufacturer's suggested retail price)."
>
> and
>
> BBB Pg. 184:
>
> "Associated with Availability is the Street Index, which affects the price
> of the item if purchased through the shadow or gray markets."
>
> Thus, according to the standard rules, Street Index does NOT apply to legal
> purchases. Also, the list price is the retail price, NOT the price of
> purchasing the item directly from the manufacturer.
>
> Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Ah, yes...the rules. I guess this was just a case of me using house rules
instead of the canon rules. My apologies.
Message no. 4
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:39:16 GMT
On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:04:18 -0500, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:

> Street index, however, should be applied to every item, no matter where
> or by whom it is bought. Basically, the list price is what one would pay
> if you bought the item directly from the manufacturer. Street index, IMHO,
> reflects the number of middle men who need to make a profit off the sale
> of the item. For most common things, this number is pretty low, but for
> more rare items, it is higher. For illegal items, the street index is
> usually quite high.

If you are saying that the original prices are manufacturer's prices and
that street index represents the number of *legal* businesses that those
goods must pass through before reaching the consumer, this way of thinking
doesn't work for those items whose street index is less than "x1". IOW,
how can something be sold for less than what the manufacturer sold it for?



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 5
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:19:15 -0500
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:04:18 -0500, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
>
> > Street index, however, should be applied to every item, no matter where
> > or by whom it is bought. Basically, the list price is what one would pay
> > if you bought the item directly from the manufacturer. Street index, IMHO,
> > reflects the number of middle men who need to make a profit off the sale
> > of the item. For most common things, this number is pretty low, but for
> > more rare items, it is higher. For illegal items, the street index is
> > usually quite high.
>
> If you are saying that the original prices are manufacturer's prices and
> that street index represents the number of *legal* businesses that those
> goods must pass through before reaching the consumer, this way of thinking
> doesn't work for those items whose street index is less than "x1". IOW,
> how can something be sold for less than what the manufacturer sold it for?

If a business needs to clear out old and outdated inventory, for example.


Still, I see what you're saying, and in all truth, I don't think the SR
price system makes much sense when applied to legal markets. Obviously,
over time, prices will drop, especially areas with a high SOTA curve like
computer technology. Further, the price system does not take into
consideration normal supply and demand curves as well as good old
competitive business practices. Granted, these things are best handled by
the GM, but I would say that with each new equipment sourcebook, there
should be adjusted costs and SIs.
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:13:53 EST
In a message dated 98-03-10 22:23:56 EST, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:

> Still, I see what you're saying, and in all truth, I don't think the SR
> price system makes much sense when applied to legal markets. Obviously,
> over time, prices will drop, especially areas with a high SOTA curve like
> computer technology. Further, the price system does not take into
> consideration normal supply and demand curves as well as good old
> competitive business practices. Granted, these things are best handled by
> the GM, but I would say that with each new equipment sourcebook, there
> should be adjusted costs and SIs.
>
There was an adjustment suggestion in an older book, either the RBB or the
FoF...for every year after the first initial release date, the price dropped
by 10% IIRC. Barring strange changes in SOTA, this ain't bad, if you couple
it with a "value cutoff" level, say 50% of certain things. I don't know how
to treat Cyberdecks/Computer stuff though, especially if one were to use the
current situation for computer CPU's as a basis for comparison.

-K
Message no. 7
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:18:03 GMT
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:19:15 -0500, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:
>
> > If you are saying that the original prices are manufacturer's prices and
> > that street index represents the number of *legal* businesses that those
> > goods must pass through before reaching the consumer, this way of thinking
> > doesn't work for those items whose street index is less than "x1".
IOW,
> > how can something be sold for less than what the manufacturer sold it for?
>
> If a business needs to clear out old and outdated inventory, for example.

Nope. That would mean that Ares Predators are *always* being sold at 50%
what Ares would normally sell them for.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 8
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:20:57 GMT
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:13:53 EST, Ereskanti wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-10 22:23:56 EST, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:
>
> > Still, I see what you're saying, and in all truth, I don't think the SR
> > price system makes much sense when applied to legal markets. Obviously,
> > over time, prices will drop, especially areas with a high SOTA curve like
> > computer technology. Further, the price system does not take into
> > consideration normal supply and demand curves as well as good old
> > competitive business practices. Granted, these things are best handled by
> > the GM, but I would say that with each new equipment sourcebook, there
> > should be adjusted costs and SIs.
> >
> There was an adjustment suggestion in an older book, either the RBB or the
> FoF...for every year after the first initial release date, the price dropped
> by 10% IIRC. Barring strange changes in SOTA, this ain't bad, if you couple
> it with a "value cutoff" level, say 50% of certain things. I don't know
how
> to treat Cyberdecks/Computer stuff though, especially if one were to use the
> current situation for computer CPU's as a basis for comparison.

The only problem with this is FASA isn't replacing these older products
with new ones fast enough. -10% per year is too low for some things (eg:
computer stuff) and too high for others (eg: general consumables). It is a
novel idea, but I don't think it can be handled simply by evoking a
discount rule.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 9
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:58:55 -0500
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:13:53 EST, Ereskanti wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 98-03-10 22:23:56 EST, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:
> >
> > > Still, I see what you're saying, and in all truth, I don't think the SR
> > > price system makes much sense when applied to legal markets. Obviously,
> > > over time, prices will drop, especially areas with a high SOTA curve like
> > > computer technology. Further, the price system does not take into
> > > consideration normal supply and demand curves as well as good old
> > > competitive business practices. Granted, these things are best handled by
> > > the GM, but I would say that with each new equipment sourcebook, there
> > > should be adjusted costs and SIs.
> > >
> > There was an adjustment suggestion in an older book, either the RBB or the
> > FoF...for every year after the first initial release date, the price dropped
> > by 10% IIRC. Barring strange changes in SOTA, this ain't bad, if you couple
> > it with a "value cutoff" level, say 50% of certain things. I don't
know how
> > to treat Cyberdecks/Computer stuff though, especially if one were to use the
> > current situation for computer CPU's as a basis for comparison.
>
> The only problem with this is FASA isn't replacing these older products
> with new ones fast enough. -10% per year is too low for some things (eg:
> computer stuff) and too high for others (eg: general consumables). It is a
> novel idea, but I don't think it can be handled simply by evoking a
> discount rule.

However, if one factors in inflations, a 10% drop might work overall.

Still, there are some SOTA examples that would drstically shift prices.
Bioware, for example, should lead to a major reduction in cyberware cost
for those areas that overlap. Secondly, major shifts in bulk contracts would
lead to significant price canges. For example, if the UCAS Army switched
its standard assault rifle, the market would be flooded with a surplus of
the weapon replaced.
Message no. 10
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:06:19 -0500
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:19:15 -0500, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:
> >
> > > If you are saying that the original prices are manufacturer's prices and
> > > that street index represents the number of *legal* businesses that those
> > > goods must pass through before reaching the consumer, this way of thinking
> > > doesn't work for those items whose street index is less than
"x1". IOW,
> > > how can something be sold for less than what the manufacturer sold it for?
> >
> > If a business needs to clear out old and outdated inventory, for example.
>
> Nope. That would mean that Ares Predators are *always* being sold at 50%
> what Ares would normally sell them for.

Okay, then try this: the list price is what a person would pay for an item
in the corporation's territory. However, as the megacorps are
extraterritorial, there are tariffs and shipping costs to deal with,
which leads to a mark-up. With some goods, however, there is such a glut
of them on the market and so many are resurculated that a retail outlet
can afford to sell them at lower prices.
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:46:40 EST
In a message dated 98-03-11 01:19:05 EST, jlindsay@******.CA writes:

> > If a business needs to clear out old and outdated inventory, for example.
>
> Nope. That would mean that Ares Predators are *always* being sold at 50%
> what Ares would normally sell them for.
>
Ah, but an Ares Pred II is a current line model, and therefore not subject to
"old" inventory rules. And Ares Predator (the original) on the other hand
would be.

-K (part of my area ya know...)
Message no. 12
From: MgkellyMJ7 <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:41:09 EST
In a message dated 98-03-11 02:11:06 EST, you write:

<< > Nope. That would mean that Ares Predators are *always* being sold at 50%
> what Ares would normally sell them for. >>

i would take it as the Predator being so common that the value has been driven
down. not only that, but i would imagine that a lot of the guns on the street
don't come new-in-the-box. they've been stolen, grabbed from dead sec-gaurds
or cops or other security personnel, or used in hold-ups, drive-by's, and
murders. if a gun has bodies on it, it drops the value way down, since the
person holding that gun could be arrested, the rifling pattern of the weapon
run against those from unsolved crimes, and the 'Runner that bought the gun
could end up being charged with a murder he didn't commit (as oppossed to the
ones they got away with). word would hit the streets and destroy the
Fixer/Gunleggers rep, as he was selling 'dirty' weapons as new. i usually mark
the Street Index up a little bit if my players want something still in the
box. otherwise, they pay the listed Index (sometimes less) and take their
chances.
gives you a little something extra to work with sometimes <EGMG> ;]

Mgkelly
Message no. 13
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:45:58 +0000
In article <c0281a86.350687b2@***.com>, Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes
>Ah, but an Ares Pred II is a current line model, and therefore not subject to
>"old" inventory rules. And Ares Predator (the original) on the other hand
>would be.

Yeah... but we never saw the Colt M1911A1 or similar "old" weapons
getting cheaper year on year... in fact a Combat Elite was the most
expensive handgun Tim stocked. The "new" Colt All-American 2000 and
Double Eagle bombed totally over here, by comparison...


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 14
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:39:23 GMT
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:06:19 -0500, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:
>
> > Nope. That would mean that Ares Predators are *always* being sold at 50%
> > what Ares would normally sell them for.
>
> Okay, then try this: the list price is what a person would pay for an item
> in the corporation's territory. However, as the megacorps are
> extraterritorial, there are tariffs and shipping costs to deal with,
> which leads to a mark-up. With some goods, however, there is such a glut
> of them on the market and so many are resurculated that a retail outlet
> can afford to sell them at lower prices.

I prefer the Shadowrun reason:

The normal price is what you pay from any legitimate retail outlet.
Illegal things such as guns and certain cyberware require permits to
purchase.

Or, you can go the black market route and take your chances. Most items
that are hard to get cost considerably more than you would pay legally, but
you don't need a permit or worry about answering a bunch of questions.
Items like Ares Predators are *so* common on the black market that their
supply has outstripped their normal demand. To compensate, blackmarketeers
are forced to offer such "illegal" weapons for considerably less than what
they would go for legally, just to get rid of them.

Because of this, SI should also be used to determine an item's value when
you try to fence it. An Ares Predator might only be worth 50-100Y to a
fixer, since the market is saturated with them already.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 15
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:39:20 GMT
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:58:55 -0500, Jeremiah Stevens wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, James Lindsay wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:13:53 EST, Ereskanti wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 98-03-10 22:23:56 EST, jeremiah@********.EDU writes:
> > >
> > > > Still, I see what you're saying, and in all truth, I don't think the
SR
> > > > price system makes much sense when applied to legal markets.
Obviously,
> > > > over time, prices will drop, especially areas with a high SOTA curve
like
> > > > computer technology. Further, the price system does not take into
> > > > consideration normal supply and demand curves as well as good old
> > > > competitive business practices. Granted, these things are best
handled by
> > > > the GM, but I would say that with each new equipment sourcebook,
there
> > > > should be adjusted costs and SIs.
> > > >
> > > There was an adjustment suggestion in an older book, either the RBB or the
> > > FoF...for every year after the first initial release date, the price
dropped
> > > by 10% IIRC. Barring strange changes in SOTA, this ain't bad, if you
couple
> > > it with a "value cutoff" level, say 50% of certain things. I
don't know how
> > > to treat Cyberdecks/Computer stuff though, especially if one were to use
the
> > > current situation for computer CPU's as a basis for comparison.
> >
> > The only problem with this is FASA isn't replacing these older products
> > with new ones fast enough. -10% per year is too low for some things (eg:
> > computer stuff) and too high for others (eg: general consumables). It is a
> > novel idea, but I don't think it can be handled simply by evoking a
> > discount rule.
>
> However, if one factors in inflations, a 10% drop might work overall.
>
> Still, there are some SOTA examples that would drstically shift prices.
> Bioware, for example, should lead to a major reduction in cyberware cost
> for those areas that overlap. Secondly, major shifts in bulk contracts would
> lead to significant price canges. For example, if the UCAS Army switched
> its standard assault rifle, the market would be flooded with a surplus of
> the weapon replaced.

Ah, but prices only drop when something better comes along. Like I said,
if the corps (or FASA) don't continue to release better weapons, armour,
biotech, cyberware, vehicles, etc. every year, prices shouldn't drop.

This can very easily be seen in today's escalating computer technology. A
Pentium 200 MHz doesn't sell for anything near what it did one year ago.
But this is because faster/better computers have come on the market.
Conversely, SGI's top-rated Onyx super-computers go for about the same
price today as they did five years ago-- because their superiority hasn't
been seriously challenged by new technology.

I have no problem with FASA attempting to model price dropping over time.
The problem lies in the fact that this only happens when something better
comes along. And even with FASA's good release schedule, seriously
superior equipment just isn't becoming available.




James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 16
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Street Index (Was: SINs and taxes)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:39:22 GMT
On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:46:40 EST, Ereskanti wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-11 01:19:05 EST, jlindsay@******.CA writes:
>
> > > If a business needs to clear out old and outdated inventory, for example.
> >
> > Nope. That would mean that Ares Predators are *always* being sold at 50%
> > what Ares would normally sell them for.
> >
> Ah, but an Ares Pred II is a current line model, and therefore not subject to
> "old" inventory rules. And Ares Predator (the original) on the other hand
> would be.

But nowhere in the "price reduction" rules does it mention a difference
between current state-of-the-art models and older weapons. And what is
state-of-the-art about the Predator II anyways? It isn't leaps and bounds
ahead of similar weapons like the Manhunter series. Both weapons are
equally good, although each one trades certain features for others (size
vs. magazine capacity, for example).

And if a regular Ares Predator drops in price too much, it becomes a
"better gun" than the Predator II. A straight -10% is simple, but such a
rule is better left up to the referee due to inconsistencies like this.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.

Further Reading

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Thwap!