Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 10:17:17 EST
t.



I thing I posted this before, but I never saw it in here, so I'm
sending this again.


when I started with SR, my group made a mitake with physads, we used
the resources points to build the physad, [50 for resources A] though
we forbade buying firearms skill with it.
We ended with good but not unbalancing characters, somewhat slower
than a street sam but really good at close combat.
Now we discovered the real rules..
6 points????????????????? you've gotta be kidding.
We have not been able to build an adept with 6 points that can have
even a remote chance vs any other class but a decker off the matrix!!
Is fasa's intention really that this should be the weakest class of
them all, or are we misinterpreting something.?
we wouldn;t mind starting as mr weak, but one initiation per extra
point????-be serious.
A typical physad has to give up cyber AND bioware and receives in
return a moderately fast initiative [IF he does not buy anything else]
and perhaps a few points of martial arts or weapon skill...

My point is: If our old characters, the equivalent of a grade 43
initiate!!!! are about as strong as a street sam [ very strong in
close combat, a bit weaker from range] then the class really has a
problem.

This imbalance stems from the fact that in the past street sams had
only 6 essence to burn.
When bioware appeared they got effectively another 6 [12 for trolls]
points to spend, and that's ok. Mages got new spells and stacked
locks.
Now with awakenings... physads got new cool powers... yeah sure... all
too expensive if you only have 6, of which you HAVE to spend most into
buying +3 d6 initiative, otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
uses Fasa-archetypes... initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
[who spent their A resources wisely]

In our own campaign we still use our old wrong " " rule as we are
happy with it [we still don't allow buying of firearms skill, as we
wouldn't like firearms 16 or so], except for physical magicians, they
have 6 only.

Still, I believe we must be making a mistake somewhere, or there is a
serious problem with the rules, I've seen "combat minded" deckers that
are far better in combat than 6-point physads.-no, I'm not kidding.


Comments anyone?
Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
compete.

F.
\


BTW: does anyone know why my mails often get to the list without text?
I'm using ccmail.
Message no. 2
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 12:01:00 +0100
Ferri Pagano said on 10:17/27 Jul 96...

> 6 points????????????????? you've gotta be kidding.
> We have not been able to build an adept with 6 points that can have
> even a remote chance vs any other class but a decker off the matrix!!
> Is fasa's intention really that this should be the weakest class of
> them all, or are we misinterpreting something.?

Damion, Jani, and Bob should be able to give you an answer you can do
something with. As I understand it, physads are weaker than newly-designed
street samurai only when they enter the game. Give them a few grades of
initation and they kick ass.

> A typical physad has to give up cyber AND bioware and receives in
> return a moderately fast initiative [IF he does not buy anything else]
> and perhaps a few points of martial arts or weapon skill...

Actually the toughest physad would be a combination of magic and
bio-/cyberware. Smartlink coupled to extra dice for Firearms for better
shots, boosted or wired reflexes to increase initiative dice (cheaper
than a magical boost), a weapon focus, etc.

> Now with awakenings... physads got new cool powers... yeah sure... all
> too expensive if you only have 6, of which you HAVE to spend most into
> buying +3 d6 initiative, otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
> uses Fasa-archetypes... initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> [who spent their A resources wisely]

It seems to me you're focusing too much on a high initative. You can aso
have combats with people who only have 4+1D6 initative, you just need a
couple more of them. My physad was slower than the street sam, sure, but
she did kick insect spirit ass where the street sam's only real solution
was to fire a burst from a shotgun and hope the spirit was of low Force.

> Still, I believe we must be making a mistake somewhere, or there is a
> serious problem with the rules, I've seen "combat minded" deckers that

> are far better in combat than 6-point physads.-no, I'm not kidding.

Then you are seriosuly doing something wrong. Six points is enough for a
nice character, and if somebody has made a decker who walzes all over a
physad in combat, I don't think the decker can be much good in the
matrix...

> Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> compete.

I don't think I can find the starting stats of my physad anymore, after
120+ Karma and at least a million nuyen (in total) she's a bit different
than the newly-generated character :)

> BTW: does anyone know why my mails often get to the list without text?
> I'm using ccmail.

For one thing, if you start your first line of a message with a space or a
tab, the list processor software strips off that line for some reason. If
you were to send single-line messages that start with a tab, they'll
become completely blank.

Other than that, I don't know.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Totally confused all the passing piranhas.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 3
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 13:23:06 EST
..<snip>

Actually the toughest physad would be a combination of magic and
bio-/cyberware. Smartlink coupled to extra dice for Firearms for better
shots, boosted or wired reflexes to increase initiative dice (cheaper
than a magical boost), a weapon focus, etc.
>>>> Yes, but we'd like the v.fast bruce lee type, deadly up close,
>>>> relatively weak from distance type. Do remember btw that bioware
>>>> DOES cost essence for mages/physads.
>>>> AHa...I get it. With your system then you have a good street sam
which loses his B at start but who can evt. get better with
initiating...admittedly a strong character, but we prefer the "no
cyber "adept type. Currently we give them the 50 points [if they take
A resources] for powers BUT with 2 thingies: 1) We don't allow buying
of firearms... Shudder at the thought.. not a single die. we also
frown at adepts having a firearms skill of more than 4 [bows exempted]
, and those tend to be ridiculed by their peers, as not "real "
physads.
2) If a Magic rating point is ever lost, 1 point is substracted from
ALL powers until that mr point is regained through initiation. We also
allow buying of new powers with new initiation grades as normal. It
has to be said though, that we get around 3-4 karma per session but
have a high mortality rate in our adventures. Usually we either wear
little armor and get blown off by bad guys or we wear loads of armor
and get blown off by lonestar :(. BTw: whenever you hear that lonestar
cops are pushovers... Don't you believe it!!!

> Now with awakenings... physads got new cool powers... yeah sure... all
> too expensive if you only have 6, of which you HAVE to spend most into
> buying +3 d6 initiative, otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
> uses Fasa-archetypes... initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> [who spent their A resources wisely]

It seems to me you're focusing too much on a high initative. You can aso
have combats with people who only have 4+1D6 initative, you just need a
couple more of them. My physad was slower than the street sam, sure, but
she did kick insect spirit ass where the street sam's only real solution
was to fire a burst from a shotgun and hope the spirit was of low Force.

>>> I was speaking from a player's point of view. As a gm I use the
many small guys approach, but as a player I prefer not to use that
particular tactic!!!!!! :((

> Still, I believe we must be making a mistake somewhere, or there is a
> serious problem with the rules, I've seen "combat minded" deckers that

> are far better in combat than 6-point physads.-no, I'm not kidding.

Then you are seriosuly doing something wrong. Six points is enough for a
nice character, and if somebody has made a decker who walzes all over a
physad in combat, I don't think the decker can be much good in the
matrix...
>>>> Not kings of the matrix, certainly, just deckers that used 1/2 a
mil to help their class,
Then bought firearms 6 => specialized-8 -cyberware +1 die thingie -
custom grip.
And 1/2 a mil on cyber/bio. You can get pretty decent "additions"for
that amount of money.

> Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> compete.

I don't think I can find the starting stats of my physad anymore, after
120+ Karma and at least a million nuyen (in total) she's a bit different
than the newly-generated character :)
>>>> I can believe that.... :)

> BTW: does anyone know why my mails often get to the list without text?
> I'm using ccmail.

For one thing, if you start your first line of a message with a space or a
tab, the list processor software strips off that line for some reason. If
you were to send single-line messages that start with a tab, they'll
become completely blank.

Other than that, I don't know.
>>>>Thx, anyway... F.
Message no. 4
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk>
Subject: Re: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:30:04 +0200 (METDST)
*****************************************************************
***** JESPER JOERGENSEN, HOLD DIG VAEK DIN LEDE FUSKER **********
*****************************************************************

On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Ferri Pagano wrote:

> when I started with SR, my group made a mitake with physads, we used
> the resources points to build the physad, [50 for resources A] though
> we forbade buying firearms skill with it.
> We ended with good but not unbalancing characters, somewhat slower
> than a street sam but really good at close combat.

Let me get this straight - you bought physad powers for about 50 points?
Holy fat fuck, considering that I can make a nice physad for 6 points,
yours must really be totally powered up :)

> Now we discovered the real rules..
> 6 points????????????????? you've gotta be kidding.
> We have not been able to build an adept with 6 points that can have
> even a remote chance vs any other class but a decker off the matrix!!

Hrm, I can follow you to some degree. In another group I've playing a
physad, who gets extra physad powerpoints by having allergies (if
metahuman). We uses the force points normally reserved for magis, which
gives about +5 if you chooses a severe, usual allergy. Kinda fun to play
- my char cannot stand sunshine :)

> My point is: If our old characters, the equivalent of a grade 43
> initiate!!!! are about as strong as a street sam [ very strong in
> close combat, a bit weaker from range] then the class really has a
> problem.

Are you running a powercmpg?

> Now with awakenings... physads got new cool powers... yeah sure... all
> too expensive if you only have 6, of which you HAVE to spend most into
> buying +3 d6 initiative, otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
> uses Fasa-archetypes...

Well, in my opinion, cybermancy sucks. I do not allow it, nor do any of
the gm's in the groups I frequent. Consequently, only the rare opponent
has an initiative of 3d6+r+, and one almost never encounters them without
being given clues that this sucker might be wise to avoid messing with..
After all, initiative boosts cost money, and most organisations have to
watch their purse :). So unless one really fouls up in my campaigns, or
the ones my friends run, the usual opponent has 2d6+R at the most.
If anything higher are encountered, their compentence is usually written
in their faces, movements and behaviour :) - or the nature of what
they're guarding/seeking..

> initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> [who spent their A resources wisely]

Hrm... That is one damn sucker of an initiative.... you guys don't
believe in strategy, tactics, snipers, explosives, gas attacks, traps and
the like? No offense intended, but that seems like a munchkin character :Q
I mean, that ini is violatile... Does that streetsam has any more space
for additional cyber, if banning cybermancy? Like gas filters, headware,
eyes, smartlink, datajacks, etc?


> Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> compete.

Well, my GM just started a new campaign up.

I've a physad just out from Daddy Dees brothel, his abilities are;

* Increased initiative I : +1d6 initiative
* Increased sense magnification (sight) +2
(hearing) +1
* Astral perception
* Magic awareness
* High Frequency hearing
* Olfactory enhancement
* Stealth improvement +2

This should amount to about 6 total...

And this dude competes fine, especially since he's got nice fighting and
stealth abilities, in addition to
interrogation/phsycology/fasttalk/acting/etc. skills..

> BTW: does anyone know why my mails often get to the list without text?
> I'm using ccmail.

Which editor do you use? I do not know ccmail very well, but when I used
elm, the editor spooked me if I did not remember to type wq instead of q
as I thought sufficient. I took me 3 hours straight to get it right, yes,
no help available from my surroundings :(

--
Sincerely,

Silhouette

* - _ _______----- ****
* ------- ________________________----------------- ****
*"Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain" ***
******** - Schiller *********
********************************
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:14:43 +0100
Ferri Pagano said on 13:23/27 Jul 96...

> >>>> Yes, but we'd like the v.fast bruce lee type, deadly up close,
> >>>> relatively weak from distance type.

Not too hard to do. How about this: take Unarmed Combat at 6, and buy 3
extra dice (1.5 MP). Also an extra initiative die (1 MP), Killing Hands S
(2 MP), 3 points Pain Resistance (1.5 MP). This will make you moderately
fast, very deadly in unarmed combat, and you won't be bothered until you
take more than a Moderate wound.

> Do remember btw that bioware
> >>>> DOES cost essence for mages/physads.

Only by FASA's rules. I think those were created in the last five seconds
before Shadowtech was shipped to the printer's, when someone noticed
magicians could get bioware without penalties. I just subtract the Body
Index from the Magic Rating directly, not from Essence.

> Usually we either wear
> little armor and get blown off by bad guys or we wear loads of armor
> and get blown off by lonestar :(. BTw: whenever you hear that lonestar
> cops are pushovers... Don't you believe it!!!

I know, I explain about the dangers of crossing LS by making a few simple
calculations involving ten or so cops armed with 9M pistols :)

> >>> I was speaking from a player's point of view. As a gm I use the
> many small guys approach, but as a player I prefer not to use that
> particular tactic!!!!!! :((

Get a gang or tribe during character generation, you should have many of
them to draw on :)

> >>>> Not kings of the matrix, certainly, just deckers that used 1/2
a
> mil to help their class,
> Then bought firearms 6 => specialized-8 -cyberware +1 die thingie -
> custom grip.
> And 1/2 a mil on cyber/bio. You can get pretty decent "additions"for
> that amount of money.

Definitely, but I found it very hard to create a good deck, even for a
million nuyen, and have a bit of cash to spare for other things. MPCP
8/6/6/6/6 with not all the gadgets I wanted cost me something like 700K I
believe.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't tell me you've found the answer because then another one will come
along soon.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:48:06 +1000 (EST)
> > 6 points????????????????? you've gotta be kidding.
> > We have not been able to build an adept with 6 points that can have
> > even a remote chance vs any other class but a decker off the matrix!!
> > Is fasa's intention really that this should be the weakest class of
> > them all, or are we misinterpreting something.?
>
> Damion, Jani, and Bob should be able to give you an answer you can do
> something with. As I understand it, physads are weaker than newly-designed
> street samurai only when they enter the game. Give them a few grades of
> initation and they kick ass.

Oh yeah. Ever seen a street sam punch someone from 12 metres away without
moving a muscle or making a single gesture? Distance strike's a beautiful
thing...

> It seems to me you're focusing too much on a high initative. You can aso
> have combats with people who only have 4+1D6 initative, you just need a
> couple more of them. My physad was slower than the street sam, sure, but
> she did kick insect spirit ass where the street sam's only real solution
> was to fire a burst from a shotgun and hope the spirit was of low Force.

And part of this sounds like the game is a trifle high powered. Yeah, at
initiatives of +4d6, it's pretty hard for the PA to compete with the
sam. But try toning things down a bit - say +2d6 for most chars, +3d6 for
the primary sams. All it takes is a bit of self restraint on the part of
the GM and the players and PAs all of a sudden become a lot more workable.

Which brings me to my problem - I'm playing a physical sorcerer adept - I
don't think I could have chosen a much more Karma-hungry character :(
Does anyone have any good ideas for geasa on adept powers - I just want
some nice ideas cause I"m sick of taking talisman geasa jsut cause I
can't think of anything else cool. (Another PA in the group has geasa
like: must have had caffeine recently to use increased initiative power;
has to pray while using freefall power... :) )

I'm going to take a kiai when I get Smashing Blow, of course, but apart
from that I"m all out of nice creative ideas. Any suggestions, folks?

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
Heisenberg may have slept here.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
I don't have enemies, it's just that my best friends
are trying to kill me.
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 96 10:04:21 EST
Silhouette wrote...


*****************************************************************
***** JESPER JOERGENSEN, HOLD DIG VAEK DIN LEDE FUSKER **********
*****************************************************************
>>Huh??

On Sat, 27 Jul 1996, Ferri Pagano wrote:

> when I started with SR, my group made a mitake with physads, we used
> the resources points to build the physad, [50 for resources A] though
> we forbade buying firearms skill with it.
> We ended with good but not unbalancing characters, somewhat slower
> than a street sam but really good at close combat.

Let me get this straight - you bought physad powers for about 50 points?
Holy fat fuck, considering that I can make a nice physad for 6 points,
yours must really be totally powered up :)
>>>I'm sorry to say... yes. EVEN though I limit items people can
buy at the start to availability 6. I allow all the books in sr2, that's
the problem, I guess... btw: that physad was by no means unkillable,
mortality rates are high in this campaigns, though most are a direct
result of harebrained actions from players.....[like sending threats to a
major villain then staying in their rooms "waiting to see what happened",
while staying in an easily located spot... I've never seen so many
grenades go off in a room at the same time...]

> Now we discovered the real rules..
> 6 points????????????????? you've gotta be kidding.
> We have not been able to build an adept with 6 points that can have
> even a remote chance vs any other class but a decker off the matrix!!

Hrm, I can follow you to some degree. In another group I've playing a
physad, who gets extra physad powerpoints by having allergies (if
metahuman). We uses the force points normally reserved for magis, which
gives about +5 if you chooses a severe, usual allergy. Kinda fun to play
- my char cannot stand sunshine :)
>>>Hmmm, any problems with vampire hunters yet? [No, Don't stake
me please, I 'm not a vampire, noooooooo....] :)

> My point is: If our old characters, the equivalent of a grade 43
> initiate!!!! are about as strong as a street sam [ very strong in
> close combat, a bit weaker from range] then the class really has a
> problem.

Are you running a powercmpg?
>>> Not really, but I do allow all the books, so you could say fasa is...

> Now with awakenings... physads got new cool powers... yeah sure... all
> too expensive if you only have 6, of which you HAVE to spend most into
> buying +3 d6 initiative, otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
> uses Fasa-archetypes...

Well, in my opinion, cybermancy sucks. I do not allow it, nor do any of
the gm's in the groups I frequent. Consequently, only the rare opponent
has an initiative of 3d6+r+, and one almost never encounters them without
being given clues that this sucker might be wise to avoid messing with..
After all, initiative boosts cost money, and most organisations have to
watch their purse :). So unless one really fouls up in my campaigns, or
the ones my friends run, the usual opponent has 2d6+R at the most.
If anything higher are encountered, their compentence is usually written
in their faces, movements and behaviour :) - or the nature of what
they're guarding/seeking..
>>>Oh no no no, I'd LOVE a pc that would take cybermancy... I'd
spend hours describing the rotting within that "might " happen, or to
see the face of said pc when (s)he found out his
girlfriend/sister/brother had been sacrificed for the ritual.......
No, these pc's get so strong because of the combination of cyberware and
bioware.....

> initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> [who spent their A resources wisely]

Hrm... That is one damn sucker of an initiative.... you guys don't
believe in strategy, tactics, snipers, explosives, gas attacks, traps and
the like? No offense intended, but that seems like a munchkin character :Q
I mean, that ini is violatile... Does that streetsam has any more space
for additional cyber, if banning cybermancy? Like gas filters, headware,
eyes, smartlink, datajacks, etc?
>>>Sure we do, no gas filters though... It is SR2, BTW. and that
street sam is only v. vulnerable vs magic... an I repeat.. NO
cybermancy. These are only starting 1million nY street sams

> Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> compete.

Well, my GM just started a new campaign up.

I've a physad just out from Daddy Dees brothel, his abilities are;

* Increased initiative I : +1d6 initiative
* Increased sense magnification (sight) +2
(hearing) +1
* Astral perception
* Magic awareness
* High Frequency hearing
* Olfactory enhancement
* Stealth improvement +2

This should amount to about 6 total...

And this dude competes fine, especially since he's got nice fighting and
stealth abilities, in addition to
interrogation/phsycology/fasttalk/acting/etc. skills..

>>Ah, how I'd love to have non-munchkin players........

> BTW: does anyone know why my mails often get to the list without text?
> I'm using ccmail.

Which editor do you use? I do not know ccmail very well, but when I used
elm, the editor spooked me if I did not remember to type wq instead of q
as I thought sufficient. I took me 3 hours straight to get it right, yes,
no help available from my surroundings :(

>>>Hmm.. all is ok when I reply to a mail , only when I write a new
one myself do the problems start.....oh well....

Ferri
Message no. 8
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:46:11 GMT
Ferri Pagano writes

> when I started with SR, my group made a mitake with physads, we used
> the resources points to build the physad, [50 for resources A] though
> we forbade buying firearms skill with it.
ouch.

> We ended with good but not unbalancing characters, somewhat slower
> than a street sam but really good at close combat.
> Now we discovered the real rules..
> 6 points????????????????? you've gotta be kidding.
no.

> We have not been able to build an adept with 6 points that can have
> even a remote chance vs any other class but a decker off the matrix!!
unless you take a troll (innate +1 is incredible, add combat axe and
unbeatable)

> Is fasa's intention really that this should be the weakest class of
> them all, or are we misinterpreting something.?
what happens when you add karma and newyen.

> This imbalance stems from the fact that in the past street sams had
> only 6 essence to burn.
> When bioware appeared they got effectively another 6 [12 for trolls]
> points to spend, and that's ok. Mages got new spells and stacked
> locks.
theres nothing to stop your local mage locking things on the physad
too, +4 str and +3d6 initative come to mind :), and the astral
problem is easy to solve try initation at mask 1 lock per grade.

> Now with awakenings... physads got new cool powers... yeah sure... all
> too expensive if you only have 6, of which you HAVE to spend most into
> buying +3 d6 initiative,
no they don't and use the costs on the compiled chart not the text.
They are cheaper and defended as correct (before FASA did some
editing)

> otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
> uses Fasa-archetypes... initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> [who spent their A resources wisely]
>
and have nothing left for improvements. This comes to an average of
say 32 maximum, now i can get 44.5 out of a physad! (not starting
sure and some GM's will (quite reasonably) complain but don't try it
with the sam even with 10 million to spend, move by wire is not worth
it.

> Comments anyone?
> Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> compete.
>
+1D6 initative is enough, if you have to have more try synaptic
accelerator 1 (magic is not listed in the incompatibles list hehe)
that uses .3 body, so add cyber eyes (get three vision mods on average
for .2 essence not .75 magic) which leaves .5 for smartgun or
something nifty.

The bonus dice on armed unarmed and stealth are real cheap for what
they do, try rolling 12 dice behind your katana (str+4)S [dikote is
lethal) plus maybe 8 combat pool and see how they like it.

pain resistance is also brilliant.
you can get a moderate selection from these for around 4-5 pts.

then as you initate mask some force one quickening from the
mage/shaman get a weapon focus and get hold of enhanced centering.
Did you know you can attack multiple targets per action in meele for
the same penalty as with guns :)

Don't forget the ranger X bow, STR+4 (range >.75 km for average
decent troll!) quieter than a gun cheap and very very deadly (damage
codes in the sniper rifle range are easy and vs impact armour,
typically 2 or 3 less than balistic) - this counts for sams as well :)

Basically although building a decent startup physad (compared to what
munchkins can do with sams / mages) is hard in the long run they can
have everything the sam can plus magic, try fighting a guy who can go
shopping in shadowtech AND the grimoire not funny. I have beaten a
whole 6 PC party in 1 round with a physad (him 250 karam them mostly
about that) the first PC to act surrendered, there being 4 unconcious
by then (and that was using fists, human guy no use of killing hands)
[ok so the goon was built to the linit by the GM the that result is
extream!]

Mark
Message no. 9
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 96 14:21:48 EST
Mark wrote....
<SNIIIPPPP>
> editing)

> otherwise you are dead unless your GM ony
> uses Fasa-archetypes... initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> [who spent their A resources wisely]
>
and have nothing left for improvements. This comes to an average of
say 32 maximum, now i can get 44.5 out of a physad! (not starting
sure and some GM's will (quite reasonably) complain but don't try it
with the sam even with 10 million to spend, move by wire is not worth
it.
> Move by wire 2 is cool, the rest makes you feel like a Guinney
pig!!

>44.5????????? with what? 500 karma???
ok I think I see where you are going, so please answer this:
Can physads use Bioware without losing points from their Magic
rating????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
If you happen to have the stats of that guy I'd love to see them, if
only as an example...if you have it somewhere and you can mail the
stats please do, the address is ferri@********.nl


> Comments anyone?
> Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> compete.
>
+1D6 initative is enough, if you have to have more try synaptic
accelerator 1 (magic is not listed in the incompatibles list hehe)
that uses .3 body, so add cyber eyes (get three vision mods on average
for .2 essence not .75 magic) which leaves .5 for smartgun or
something nifty.

The bonus dice on armed unarmed and stealth are real cheap for what
they do, try rolling 12 dice behind your katana (str+4)S [dikote is
lethal) plus maybe 8 combat pool and see how they like it.
> Done...with monowhip, skill[incl. foci], my gm doesn't
even bother rolling resistance....

pain resistance is also brilliant.>>Too true!!, specially when fighting some
trolls up close when at 9 boxes damage... our gm is soooo funny :(
you can get a moderate selection from these for around 4-5 pts.

then as you initate mask some force one quickening from the
mage/shaman get a weapon focus and get hold of enhanced centering.
>hmm.. will look up what enhanced centering does...
Did you know you can attack multiple targets per action in meele for
the same penalty as with guns :)
>>Yes.... I looove monowhips, the tn is usually 4-5 for the
2nd target...

Don't forget the ranger X bow, STR+4 (range >.75 km for average decent
troll!) quieter than a gun cheap and very very deadly (damage codes in
the sniper rifle range are easy and vs impact armour, typically 2 or 3
less than balistic) - this counts for sams as well :)
>>True, and a bow is not really a weapon, and you get premits
real easy, if you need them. The star does not bother people with
bows, [it's for my son, officer. I'm teaching him how to hunt....:) ]


Basically although building a decent startup physad (compared to what
munchkins can do with sams / mages) is hard in the long run they can
have everything the sam can plus magic, try fighting a guy who can go
shopping in shadowtech AND the grimoire not funny. I have beaten a
whole 6 PC party in 1 round with a physad (him 250 karam them mostly
about that) the first PC to act surrendered, there being 4 unconcious
by then (and that was using fists, human guy no use of killing hands)
[ok so the goon was built to the linit by the GM the that result is
extream!]

Mark
>>Please respond my question above.. can physads use bioware?? this would change
all..
-personally , I will be using the virtual seatle system from now on, and I'll
allow adepts the 35 points to buy things, but not an ounce of cyber or bio. You
end up with a slower adept with a melee skill of 15+, just as you seem to do
with bio+cyber, but this way you get more the monk/adept feel.. purity of body
and so on....
F.
Message no. 10
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.econ.cbs.dk>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 17:16:45 +0200 (METDST)
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Ferri Pagano wrote:

> *****************************************************************
> ***** JESPER JOERGENSEN, HOLD DIG VAEK DIN LEDE FUSKER **********
> *****************************************************************
> >>Huh??

A friend and co-player of mine is also on the list and I warned him off in
my own language, so he would not see my chars abilities - never know if he
turns on me, ya know ....: )

[snip]
> Let me get this straight - you bought physad powers for about 50 points?
> Holy fat fuck, considering that I can make a nice physad for 6 points,
> yours must really be totally powered up :)

> >>>I'm sorry to say... yes. EVEN though I limit items people can
> buy at the start to availability 6. I allow all the books in sr2, that's
> the problem, I guess... btw: that physad was by no means unkillable,
> mortality rates are high in this campaigns, though most are a direct
> result of harebrained actions from players.....[like sending threats to a
> major villain then staying in their rooms "waiting to see what happened",
> while staying in an easily located spot... I've never seen so many
> grenades go off in a room at the same time...]

Hrm.... you don't think, that the total coolness of your PC's tend to give
them a preference to just brawl through any situation that allows it?
If you're really in trouble with char creation and playing, first, start
people out without a rep so they have to build it from scratch themselves and
the GM helps as little as possible - after all, they're untried cards and
Fixers will consider them cannonfodder unless circumstances promotes
another kind of thinking. Second, disallow A & B pics in money for sammies
and magis, disallow A in money for everybody else.
With fewer money, no rep and generally with a worse outlook, maybe you can
promote some intelligence :) - When I GM, no item with availability >6 is
allowed, no bioware for starters, no military eq/cyber for starters, etc.
This promotes chars, low on money and equipment, but high on roleplay,
inventiveness and imagination - it is required when your total assets can
be liquidated to 10,000 nuyen, and the cops are on your ass :Q

[snip]

> gives about +5 if you chooses a severe, usual allergy. Kinda fun to play
> - my char cannot stand sunshine :)
> >>>Hmmm, any problems with vampire hunters yet? [No, Don't stake
> me please, I 'm not a vampire, noooooooo....] :)

Yeah :( My potential fixer wont meet me, my fellows wont sleep near me,
etc. My damn GM gets great kicks out of my vampireness, etc.
Vamp hunters will probably arrive the moment I get a rep :(

> > My point is: If our old characters, the equivalent of a grade 43
> > initiate!!!! are about as strong as a street sam [ very strong in
> > close combat, a bit weaker from range] then the class really has a
> > problem.
>
> Are you running a powercmpg?
> >>> Not really, but I do allow all the books, so you could say
fasa is...

Hrm.. You know, when I was a Rolemaster GM and had my first discussion
with a shadowrun GM, about 4 years ago, he was really into the rules, had
GM'ed for 2 years intensively, and was sorely disillusioned.
He warned me about initiate mages, about allowing all cyber/bioware, about
allowing players too much money for starters, giving out too much karma,
etc.
For: The Shadowrun system just is not foolproof - as all roleplay
GM/Players keep pointing out on this list and in other forums, the system
is cool for roleplayers who wants to create interesting PC's, running in
an interesting environment... But the system can be totally unbalanced by
optimizing players, who take benefit of every advantage they can get their
hands on.... give out Titanium Bone lacing, A plate Factory, A pain
editor, and some headware to boost skills, combined with some kind of
hefty initiative increase, SGL II, some APDS/Glaser/Titanium tipped
bullets, and the best weapons money can by to a Troll, and you've
suddently created an immortal. Expecially if the sucker uses brains..
brrrr.....
I've GM'd a group with 3 such players, and the only way I could hold them
off destroying the game unintentionally, was to introduce the restrictions
mentioned in the start of this post. Oh, and I kept vetoright on every
other kind of gear they choose.. :)

> Well, in my opinion, cybermancy sucks. I do not allow it, nor do any of

[snip]

> >>>Oh no no no, I'd LOVE a pc that would take cybermancy... I'd
> spend hours describing the rotting within that "might " happen, or to
> see the face of said pc when (s)he found out his
> girlfriend/sister/brother had been sacrificed for the ritual.......
> No, these pc's get so strong because of the combination of cyberware and
> bioware.....

Yeah, that bio takes body index and cyber takes essence is surely a smart
move on the part of FASA :)

Apart from that, are your players really good roleplayers? If so, then
cybermancy would be cool in your campaings, but in mine.... I fear that
even my quite experienced gamers would be incapable of playing a
cybermacied PC..... too much chance of shrugging ones shoulders at the
sacrifices nessesary and then charge on munchkinous......

> > initiative is FAR too important in sr to be
> > happy with anything less. Doing this you end up with about 4+4d6
> > initiative... not really up to the 15-18+4d6 of STARTING street sams
> > [who spent their A resources wisely]
>
> Hrm... That is one damn sucker of an initiative.... you guys don't
> believe in strategy, tactics, snipers, explosives, gas attacks, traps and
> the like? No offense intended, but that seems like a munchkin character :Q
> I mean, that ini is violatile... Does that streetsam has any more space
> for additional cyber, if banning cybermancy? Like gas filters, headware,
> eyes, smartlink, datajacks, etc?
> >>>Sure we do, no gas filters though... It is SR2, BTW. and that
> street sam is only v. vulnerable vs magic... an I repeat.. NO
> cybermancy. These are only starting 1million nY street sams

Arrrrgggghhhh!!!! Introduce a moneypic in the range C-E :)

> > Has anyone managed to build a GOOD starting physad?-one who can
> > compete.

[snip]

> And this dude competes fine, especially since he's got nice fighting and
> stealth abilities, in addition to
> interrogation/phsycology/fasttalk/acting/etc. skills..
>
> >>Ah, how I'd love to have non-munchkin players........

Well, if you believe your players to have potential, my advice - as you
if you didn't know by now :) - would be to limit money to C-D-E pics,
demand lowlife backgrounds for them, make the world just as mean as it
should usually be, make karma dependent of roleplay with regard to PC
demeanor and background (if you don't do this already:), and make the
world consistent with regard to PC actions.
Initially, they're just punks - smart maybe, but still just punks. It's up
to them to prove otherwise.

Maybe you should consider playing a little CoC for starters - that game
teaches people to use their minds, as 95% of the monsters grins at your
shotgun and swallows you whole :)

--
Merrily,

Silhouette

* - _ _______----- ****
* ------- ________________________----------------- ****
*"Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain" ***
******** - Schiller *********
********************************
Message no. 11
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:45:50 GMT
Ferri Pagan writes

basic reply, i will try and tidy it up as well.
note Ferri did not indent so a mess.(i suspect the mail program :( )

> Mark wrote....
>
> and have nothing left for improvements. This comes to an average of
> say 32 maximum, now i can get 44.5 out of a physad! (not starting
> sure and some GM's will (quite reasonably) complain but don't try it
> with the sam even with 10 million to spend, move by wire is not worth
> it.
> > Move by wire 2 is cool, the rest makes you feel like a Guinney
> pig!!
>
> >44.5????????? with what? 500 karma???
250 and quite a lot of money. and it went up to average 49 on Jazz.

> ok I think I see where you are going, so please answer this:
> Can physads use Bioware without losing points from their Magic
> rating
no however you can 'get them back' by initating, you get a max +3D6
for 6 points from physad abilities.

> If you happen to have the stats of that guy I'd love to see them, if
> only as an example...if you have it somewhere and you can mail the
> stats please do, the address is ferri@********.nl
>
not handy at the moment but try locking +4 quick, int, reac (atts of
6 become reac 14 odd) +3D6 and throw in synaptic 2 and 3D6 phsad
abilites, 14+9D6! ok not legal in many peoples games but 'strictly by
the book' it is not against the letter of the law.

> > Done...with monowhip, skill[incl. foci], my gm doesn't
> even bother rolling resistance....
>
some of use limit starting kit to availablity 6 and make sure to keep
track of spare monowhips (like no supplies) because they kill just
about anything short great dragons.

> >hmm.. will look up what enhanced centering does...
centering on say unarmed combat,

> Did you know you can attack multiple targets per action in meele for
> the same penalty as with guns :)
> >>Yes.... I looove monowhips, the tn is usually 4-5 for the
> 2nd target...
centre vs penatlies, and you can get 2's!

> >>True, and a bow is not really a weapon, and you get premits
> real easy, if you need them. The star does not bother people with
> bows, [it's for my son, officer. I'm teaching him how to hunt....:) ]
>
get a licence
>
> >>Please respond my question above.. can physads use bioware?? this would
change
> all..
yes they can but it cost them magic (by thebook essence as well but
thats plain silly)

> -personally , I will be using the virtual seatle system from now on,
sokeone posted some of the details or was that all?

> and I'll
> allow adepts the 35 points to buy things, but not an ounce of cyber or bio. You
> end up with a slower adept with a melee skill of 15+,
how much!

> just as you seem to do
> with bio+cyber, but this way you get more the monk/adept feel.. purity of body
> and so on....
>
Mark
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:46:18 +0100
Ferri Pagano said on 14:21/30 Jul 96...


> >>Please respond my question above.. can physads use bioware?? this
> would change all..

Of course they can. The only thing to keep in mind is that only the
highest bonus applies (I don't think that's printed anywhere, but Tom Dowd
said something to that effect once). So no synaptic accelerator plus
increased reflexes, it's one of the two but not both.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Media pollution is a very bad solution.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Street sams vs physadept + texts. one more try, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!