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Message no. 1
From: Aaron Beharelle <spectre1@****.COM>
Subject: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:03:56 EDT
One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The
same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

Thanks,
-Aaron Beharelle
Spectre1@****.com
Baherel@****.idt.net
--
Aaron's Gaming Page
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/1045

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Message no. 2
From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:27:44 -0700
>One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
>the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
>them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
>ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The
>same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
>136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
>ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
>I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
>I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

Not to be rude but....

Grow some balls.

It is /your/ game. /You/ run it. /You/ determine what is legal and what
is not. If he doesn't like it, tell him to screw off. If I /ever/ had a
player try this shit with me, I'd boot his ass out of my game and my house
faster than you can say "rabid munchkin".

Again, not to be rude, but there is just so much you put up from a player
and then THAT'S IT.

- Brett "hardass" Barksdale
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:34:33 -0500
At 07:03 PM 4/15/97 EDT, Aaron Beharelle wrote these timeless words:
>One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
>the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
>them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
>ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I?
>
Hmmm, I'm not sure... I think Phsy-Ads can, but they can only be used for
bonding Weapon Foci... However, if you are the GM, Phsy_Ads can't get them
if you don't want them...

>Also, The
>same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
>136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
>ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
>I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
>I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!
>
Ugh,,,

You're in a bad spot, man...

I guess first and foremost, is this player a friend? If so, he's not a
very good one, but you can't just say "Go away" to a friend. Get together
with him outside of the group, maybe go grab a burger with him, and talk to
him. Try to work out the problem. If he still won't listen, then you may
be forced to ask him to leave the group. It's tough when this happens, but
is occasionally necessary...

If the guy isn't a friend, then life's a little easier. Do the same as
above, but if he doesn't listen, tell him to get the hell out. Players are
replaceable, and if he won't play by your rules, you don't need him...
It's still a tough decision, because not many of us enjoy being an asshole
(Ok, Fro... I know... But it was just that once! :)), but it may be
necessary, and at least you aren't losing a good friend over it...

Unfortunately, there are no good answers to this question. But i hope this
helps a little...

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html
As well as a sort of new .sig! ;]

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich (chaos@*****.com)

"BTW - It's time for a new quote at the end of your .sig,
I'm tired of the Mighty One."
-Steven Tinner
Message no. 4
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:42:40 -0600
At 19:03 4/15/97 EDT, you wrote:
>136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
>ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says

I think Thomas Deeny suggested this to someone a few months back..whoever
it was, I think its hilarious.

Take black marker. Take character sheet. Apply black marker to character
sheet.

-Adam

--
Http://shadowrun.home.ml.org
'Do you know how many times I have said something that ends up in
someone's .sig?" -Dvixen, way too late at night, way too expensive a call.
Message no. 5
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 15:32:53 -0700
Aaron Beharelle wrote:
>
> One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
> the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
> them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
> ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The
> same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
> 136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
> ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
> I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
> I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

Okay: Kick him out of your group. If he were capable of intelligent
discourse with you, I'd suggest other options, but "asshole" is far, far
too much.

And as far as the physad thing goes, you're right on track (but, if
you're interested, somebody has a bit on physads buying powers with
Karma, with increased costs... can't remember name/url.)


> Thanks,
> -Aaron Beharelle
> Spectre1@****.com
> Baherel@****.idt.net


-Matt
Message no. 6
From: Loki <gamemstr@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:13:30 -0700
> One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
> the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
> them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
> ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The
> same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
> 136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
> ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
> I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
> I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

First off, Force Points don't help a PhysAd at character creation (unless
the GM deems them usable to bond a Weapon Focus). Force points aren't going
to buy him more PhysAd abilities, as those come from the Magic Attribute.
Secondly, you're GM and he should be respecting your say so no matter what.
His seat as a player could be empty and the game would go on, without you
the game would halt.

Luckily I don't have to deal with this severe of attitude in my group. A
few on the list may remember me posting an email that was being sent to a
particularly "Munchy" player we have, named Paul. He was causing a few
waves in the group, but Asher, Caric and Rookie are pretty good about
helping me police this kind of thing. In the end, what I say as GM goes and
Paul is falling into line.

How about your group, do the rest of the players feel the same way about
this guy's attitude? You are afterall, the GM. By recognizing you as such,
your group has put in you a place of authority. If the other players share
your opinions on this player, and he is having a direct affect on the group
enjoying themselves...HE NEEDS TO GO.

@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves http://www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
Message no. 7
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:39:49 EDT
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:03:56 EDT Aaron Beharelle <spectre1@****.COM>
writes:
[...]

>136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
>ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
>I'm an asshole.

[...]

Everybody else had usefull stuff to say...

And all I'll add is this:
When he tells you that he's going to make his character no matter what
you say... just tell him to go ahead, he's more that welcome to.... just
don't expect to play that PC in any game you run.
You're GM... it's your game, your world, your universe. You have
absolute final say in all rules and characters and etc.. that get used
in YOUR game. If he doesn't like that then he can go find another GM
who's more likely to bend to his munchkin will.

~Tim
Message no. 8
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 23:02:59 -0400
> >136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care"
and
> >ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
> >I'm an asshole.

Here's the thing you need to keep in mind.
You as the GM MUST maintain a balance between the PC's and the NPC's.
In our game we decided that as long as the PC's didin't try anything like
grounding through a focus, neither would the bad guys.
As long as nobody took a weapon bigger than an SMG ... likewise.
If Mr. Physad wants to have heaps of powers - great!
But make sure he understands that ALL the opponents he meets will be
balanced to meet him.

And when I say balanced, I mean OVERbalanced!
Double all the NPC's Threat Dice immediately!
Give most sec guards Wired 2, Give the good ones Move by Wire 4!

Let the moron learn by example that anything he can do you can do better.
Think about it.
You have access to Immortal Elves, Dragons, MegaCorps, and this list! :-)

That's a lot more power than one physad with a few extra points.
Let the idiot waste his time making his new toy PC, then make him pay for
doing so.
Don't kill him - that's toooo easy.
Make him suffer.
Have watchers harass him at every corner.
Let him get hit in the head and develop voices in his ears.
Screw him over without letting him know you are doing so!

Eventually he will either learn, or he will realize that his "power" is not
as important as having fun running in a good game.

Then again, you could always just start running the game diceless! :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"They do not know. They only THINK they know ..."
Message no. 9
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 22:38:56 -0700
Now//I don't really want to reitterate everything that everyone else
has said but..Well..They are all more or less correct...

> When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
> ignores me.

This is his mistake....

> When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
> I'm an asshole.

I get this in my line of work alot...My reply..Well usually I just
beat them to the punch.."Yes I am.." or the statement "Well..You do
reealise I am an @$$ho!e..So no you cannot [whatever is being
denied]"..This does a real good job of taking the wind out of their
sails..The point is..Don't worry about a pea brain that resorts to
calling names..He is pretty well defensless when it comes to matching
wits..

> He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
> I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

If you are thinking about this..Get the big boot out of the
closet..and be prepared to use it..But first talk to your player and
let him/her know the results of his/her actions...If it comes down to
it..Use the boot....But don't touch the person or their
property..That is a road best not traveled....
The hardest part of being the GM is this sort of situation..It is
part of the territory...


--------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 11:57:41 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 23:02/15 Apr 97...

> Here's the thing you need to keep in mind.
> You as the GM MUST maintain a balance between the PC's and the NPC's.
[snip]
> But make sure he understands that ALL the opponents he meets will be
> balanced to meet him.
>
> And when I say balanced, I mean OVERbalanced!
> Double all the NPC's Threat Dice immediately!
> Give most sec guards Wired 2, Give the good ones Move by Wire 4!

There is a danger with taking this approach, though. The players may see
you throwing unbeatable enemies against them as a signal to toughen up the
next characters they make, to the point where you end up with a MAD (as in
the Cold War acronym) arms race, and _all_ the PCs and NPCs are utterly
munchkinous just to keep the (over)balance that originally started to keep
one PC in line.

This is not to say you shouldn't try this, but be careful not to let it
get out of hand. One way to do that is, if/when all the PCs are dead in
the current campaign, let them know you want to run a low-power campaign.
Institute max ratings of 4 or 5 instead of 6, and tell them that heavy
weapons (larger than SMGs) will be rarely used and severly dealt with by
Lone Star.

> You have access to Immortal Elves, Dragons, MegaCorps, and this list! :-)

Especially the latter :)

> Don't kill him - that's toooo easy.
> Make him suffer.
> Have watchers harass him at every corner.
> Let him get hit in the head and develop voices in his ears.

I have a feeling that sort of thing works better with roleplayers than
it does with rollplayers.

> Screw him over without letting him know you are doing so!

Good idea, but try to do it in such a way that the other players
understand what you're doing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's nothing we can not ever fix.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:15:20 +1000
> One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
> the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
> them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
> ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The

You were definitely right. I was re-reading the companion today, and it
said that you can't buy force points if you are a physad. I'll look up the
page reference if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

> same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
> 136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
> ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
> I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
> I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

You are the GM. You decide what is unbalancing in your campaign. And if
he thinks you are an asshole, I'd say that he's only in the group for some
other reason than role-playing, and kicking him out would probably be the
best thing you could do for the group.

Ray.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@*******.com.au
Message no. 12
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 02:54:59 -0400
> Also, The
>same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
>136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
>ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
>I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
>I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!

Yes I believe that your correct. If he's brasen enough to tell you he
doesn't care it time to get nasty. Remind him of who the gm is and who's
running this campaign if he still doesn't get the hint. BOOT his miserable ass.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 13
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 07:39:43 -0400
> There is a danger with taking this approach, though. The players may see
> you throwing unbeatable enemies against them as a signal to toughen up
the
> next characters they make, to the point where you end up with a MAD (as
in
> the Cold War acronym) arms race, and _all_ the PCs and NPCs are utterly
> munchkinous just to keep the (over)balance that originally started to
keep
> one PC in line.

Good points, and something I didn't consider.
Guess I'm lucky to have players that respect the GM's job and don't give me
too much greif. :-)

> I have a feeling that sort of thing works better with roleplayers than
> it does with rollplayers.

Undoubtedly.
If he's a TOTAL powergamer I doubt anything will change him.
In this case, you might want him to make a notebook full of identical PC's
with differnet names, so he can replace them quickly as you kill them. :-)


Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"They do not know. They only THINK they know ..."
Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:10:29 +1000
> > He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
> > I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!
>
> If you are thinking about this..Get the big boot out of the
> closet..and be prepared to use it..But first talk to your player and
> let him/her know the results of his/her actions...If it comes down to
> it..Use the boot....But don't touch the person or their
> property..That is a road best not traveled....
> The hardest part of being the GM is this sort of situation..It is
> part of the territory...
>

Only one thing to add: Before you evict him from the group, talk to the
other players in the group and let them know exactly why he's going. If
he's as bad as he sounds, then the rest of the players would probably
like to see his better side (ie, his back).

If THEY don't want him to go then you've got a problem, basically due to
a conflict in GMing style. If it comes down to the wire like this,
threaten to quit GMing, or insist that the troublesome player(s) take
their turn in the hot seat.

Marty
Message no. 15
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:13:11 +1000
> > Don't kill him - that's toooo easy.
> > Make him suffer.
> > Have watchers harass him at every corner.
> > Let him get hit in the head and develop voices in his ears.
>
> I have a feeling that sort of thing works better with roleplayers than
> it does with rollplayers.
>
Well, if that won't work... hit him with a patented 'blue cow from
space'... lock him up in a federal jail, and give the rest of the group
an obviously suicidal chance to rescue him. After the fourth or fifth
character he might start to get the idea, much like a puppy that pisses
on the carpet and you have to rub its nose in.

Marty
Message no. 16
From: Shaun Sides <arch@****.ABTS.NET>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:03:09 -0500
Date: 16 Apr 97 Time: 11:57
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read

TO: Gurth

> I have a feeling that sort of thing works better with roleplayers
> than it does with rollplayers.

If we were talking about a roleplayer, though, this discussion would
never have started, neh? :)

a chaoidh teabadaich,

Shaun Sides
arch@****.net
http://www.abts.net/~arch

It's better to be dead and cool, than alive and uncool.
-- Harley, from Harley Davidson & the Marlboro Man
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 08:32:42 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
| Steven A. Tinner said on 23:02/15 Apr 97...
|
| > Here's the thing you need to keep in mind.
| > You as the GM MUST maintain a balance between the PC's and the NPC's.
| [snip]
| > But make sure he understands that ALL the opponents he meets will be
| > balanced to meet him.
| >
| > And when I say balanced, I mean OVERbalanced!
| > Double all the NPC's Threat Dice immediately!
| > Give most sec guards Wired 2, Give the good ones Move by Wire 4!
|
| There is a danger with taking this approach, though. The players may see
| you throwing unbeatable enemies against them as a signal to toughen up the
| next characters they make, to the point where you end up with a MAD (as in
| the Cold War acronym) arms race, and _all_ the PCs and NPCs are utterly
| munchkinous just to keep the (over)balance that originally started to keep
| one PC in line.

I think Steven was thinking of making the enemies unbeatable *just* for the
one bad apple, and treating the other players fairly.

Even though the it's tempting, I would recommend laying down the law, and
if he crosses the line again kick him out.

| > Screw him over without letting him know you are doing so!
|
| Good idea, but try to do it in such a way that the other players
| understand what you're doing.

Definitely. As others have mentioned, you can talk to the person and
give them one more chance. You should also tell the rest of the
group (nicely, of course :) how you want to run your game, just to
put all your cards on the table. This kind of depends on the other
players' relationship with the bad apple. If one or more are friends
with the BA, then you should be prepared to debate the issue with
them too.

I've been through something similar twice. The first time the BA was
the husband of a friend. We (the rest of the group) put up with it
and led a pretty miserable gaming life as BA munchkined a couple
games to death. In retrospect we should have laid down the rules and
told his wife (our friend) that we weren't willing to warp our games
to meet his needs.

The second time a new player got off to a good start, but then he
turned to the Dark Side. After he stormed out one night because some
NPCs with shotguns won initiative and wasted his car we just let him
go and never asked him to play with us again. In this case I had
learned my lessons and ran the game the way I wanted to run it.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 18
From: "Ben L." <b.legangneux@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:30:16 +0200
Your real problem is that if this guy us a great friend, you can't throw
him out.

As explained Steven A. Tinner, I think that you must make him understand
who's the boss at the table ( that is to say YOU ).

I've already been in this case, but with a player becoming a munchkin
over months of rolyplaying. An odd situation, but he was prefering to
find fun in rolling dies and writing big numbers on his sheet than
effectively roleplaying.

My reaction was quick. I've decided at this time to take him as my
prefered target. And believe me, even big numbers on is PC Sheet was not
enough for him to oppose me a good resistance, against an angry GM.

I'll always remember his face when he said : "HEY! stop that!! are you
wanting to kill me", when I opposed him to a well-armed gang. In fact,
an overbalanced gang.

In fact, I've stopped freaking with him the day he started to roleplay
again. He was surprised to realize that Munchkin means nothing to me.
All that I wait in my games is roleplay and fun, and non-munchkins
players were having more fun than him.

Now everything is fine. He's always a great friend, and we like to have
fun.

So make your choice. Keep your friend at your table if he's a good one,
and make him suffer, or throw him out.


I explain the same thing than Steven A. Tinner, but sometimes it's
better to have the same advice more than one time

Ben.
Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:41:49 GMT
Aaron Beharelle writes

Before i start talking is always the best option and some
explanation, if it doesn't work no easy solutions. Other folks have
discussed the options so i'll just give some direct answers.

> One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
> the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points,

> then trade them for karma
ask him to find a reference that says he CAN do this (it doesn't
exist so...) AND show it to you

> to make a strting initiate.
A house rule of a few GM's, requires good karma something starting
PC's do not have. 'force points are equivalent to karma in many ways,
but they ARE NOT KARMA'.

> I told him that PHYSICAL
> ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I?
Yes.

> Also, The
> same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
> 136 point character.
Well the book says 100.
i once added up a charcter that came to 126 points as worth startup
plus 80 Karma, try asking him if its fair he gets a character with
the equivalent of over 100 karma more than the rest, to the rest of
them. [i suspect said NPC of mine of having been built on a 'that
looks average' basis]

> When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
> ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
> I'm an asshole.
bad.

> He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place, and
> I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!
If he won't listen to reason you really don't have much choice. Try
explaining things first and tell him WHY what he's doing is
unreasonable, if he won't listen to reason well there really arn't
many options.

Mark
Message no. 20
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:30:40 -0400
> After the fourth or fifth character he might start to get the idea, much
like a puppy that pisses
> on the carpet and you have to rub its nose in.

Perfect analogy!
Sometimes it takes them a little longer, but eventually a they either adapt
or move on.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"They do not know. They only THINK they know ..."
Message no. 21
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:58:56 -0500
At 07:39 AM 4/16/97 -0400, Steven A. Tinner wrote these timeless words:
>> There is a danger with taking this approach, though. The players may see
>> you throwing unbeatable enemies against them as a signal to toughen up
>the
>> next characters they make, to the point where you end up with a MAD (as
>in
>> the Cold War acronym) arms race, and _all_ the PCs and NPCs are utterly
>> munchkinous just to keep the (over)balance that originally started to
>keep
>> one PC in line.
>
>Good points, and something I didn't consider.
>Guess I'm lucky to have players that respect the GM's job and don't give me
>too much greif. :-)
>
Keep in mind, Tinner, taht about half your players are GM's as well... We
know what kind of miserable job being God... Err, GM... is...

Except for Dave, of course... he likes being a pain...

Bull
--
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As well as a sort of new .sig! ;]

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich (chaos@*****.com)

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I'm tired of the Mighty One."
-Steven Tinner
Message no. 22
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:22:07 -0400
Aaron Beharelle enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
>the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
>them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
>ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The

I'd say they can, but they can't spend them on getting initiated. (someone
gave me the quote they used to support this, I can dig it up if you want).
They can spend them on Weapon or Centering Foci though. (Note that one is
useless until you are initiated, and the other has a big price tag to it.

Basically a GM has a DUTY to keep such players in line, regardless of the
rules. Other players will thank you.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 23
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 22:48:52 EDT
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 19:03:56 EDT Aaron Beharelle <spectre1@****.COM>
writes:
>One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
>the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
>them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
>ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The

Yes. Official ruling is that they only get force points for bonding
weapon foci and they may not sell them back. And initiation for a
starting character would have to be a house rule.

>same player is very stubborn. He gets the idea that he can start with a
>136 point character. When I tell him no, he just says "I don't care" and
>ignores me. When I keep pressing him with his illegal character, he says
>I'm an asshole. He wasn't a very good roleplayer in the first place,and
>I'm thinking of kicking him out of our group. Help me!
>

Then kick him out. Either that, or lay down the law. Scream in his bloody
face if you have to. You are the GM (supposedly), therefore, you are the
man in charge. Explain in words of one syllable in order to get it across
to him. Explain that, as GM, you decide who plays and how they play. If
he continues to challenge this authority, let him GM a game. Really GM a
game. Give him a module and say "Tonight it's your turn", then turn the
game over to him for the night. If he asks for help, ignore it. And be
sure to play the most obnoxious, munchkinous, high-powered rules-breaking
character you can come up with. And foreget role-play for the night. The
idea is to turn the tables on him, so you get his job: group pain in the
ass. Have fun.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, lobo1@****.com
let him prepare for war. canthros1@***.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:38:22 +0100
Ben L. said on 17:30/16 Apr 97...

> Your real problem is that if this guy us a great friend, you can't throw
> him out.

He might not take it kindly if you do, no...

> As explained Steven A. Tinner, I think that you must make him understand
> who's the boss at the table ( that is to say YOU ).

I wouldn't quite put it that way; I feel that the first thing you should
always try is talk to the offending player, explain your standpoint and
see what his/hers is. Don't just put your foot down and say "This is the
way it's going to be!" because that might piss off everyone and in the
end leave you playerless.

> I'll always remember his face when he said : "HEY! stop that!! are you
> wanting to kill me", when I opposed him to a well-armed gang. In fact,
> an overbalanced gang.

This kind of thing as a lesson to the player is a good idea, though. Just
don't kill him off completely until you've explained (outside of the game)
_why_ you're picking on him.

> I explain the same thing than Steven A. Tinner, but sometimes it's
> better to have the same advice more than one time

He's had more than a few times the same advice by now :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Do you remember, when you were someone else?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 11:38:22 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 7:39/16 Apr 97...

> Guess I'm lucky to have players that respect the GM's job and don't give me
> too much greif. :-)

Same thing here, but I can imagine players who aren't so considerate.

> If he's a TOTAL powergamer I doubt anything will change him.
> In this case, you might want him to make a notebook full of identical PC's
> with differnet names, so he can replace them quickly as you kill them. :-)

As a character background, you could let get the characters through some
kind of interdimensional portal over to Alpha Complex :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Do you remember, when you were someone else?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 12:44:41 +0100
L Canthros said on 22:48/16 Apr 97...

> Yes. Official ruling is that [physads] only get force points for bonding
> weapon foci and they may not sell them back. And initiation for a
> starting character would have to be a house rule.

What physads can spend Force Points on has never really been defined in
any SR rules; FASAMike had the opinion that they couldn't be spent on
_anything_, so in effect he ruled that physads didn't get FPs at all. He
did seem to like the idea that they could spend them on a weapon focus
after all (MC23 doesn't agree with that one, though).

I've alway ruled in my game that physads get the same Force Points as
other magicians, and can spend them on the same things. However, the only
useful thing they can buy from them is a weapon focus.

> Explain that, as GM, you decide who plays and how they play. If he
> continues to challenge this authority, let him GM a game. Really GM a
> game. Give him a module and say "Tonight it's your turn", then turn the
> game over to him for the night.

Better to say "How about you GM next week?" so he can at least prepare the
module... If you let him GM completely unexpected, nobody will have fun.

> If he asks for help, ignore it. And be sure to play the most obnoxious,
> munchkinous, high-powered rules-breaking character you can come up with.
> And foreget role-play for the night. The idea is to turn the tables on
> him, so you get his job: group pain in the ass. Have fun.

This is a good idea, and one that should also work if you're a "regular"
player in a game where others exhibit this kind of behavior. For a
game or two, take what they normally do and exaggerate it. Be sure to use
a newly-created character for this :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Do you remember, when you were someone else?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 27
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:36:47 +1000
> > If he asks for help, ignore it. And be sure to play the most obnoxious,
> > munchkinous, high-powered rules-breaking character you can come up with.
> > And foreget role-play for the night. The idea is to turn the tables on
> > him, so you get his job: group pain in the ass. Have fun.
>
> This is a good idea, and one that should also work if you're a "regular"
> player in a game where others exhibit this kind of behavior. For a
> game or two, take what they normally do and exaggerate it. Be sure to use
> a newly-created character for this :)
>
And one you're not likely to get quickly attached to. *grin*

In fact, make him/her part of one big, happy vat-cloned family.
Message no. 28
From: Walker of Shadows <OABBrother@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stubborn Players... Please Read.
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:29:07 -0400
In a message dated 97-04-16 17:45:49 EDT, you write:

<< Aaron Beharelle enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>One of the players in my group decided to make a physical adept using
>the point based system. He thinks he can buy spell points, then trade
>them for karma to make a strting initiate. I told him that PHYSICAL
>ADEPTS CANNOT BUY FORCE POINTS. I hope I was right. Was I? Also, The

I'd say they can, but they can't spend them on getting initiated. (someone
gave me the quote they used to support this, I can dig it up if you want).
They can spend them on Weapon or Centering Foci though. (Note that one is
useless until you are initiated, and the other has a big price tag to it.

Basically a GM has a DUTY to keep such players in line, regardless of the
rules. Other players will thank you.

-=SwiftOne=- >>


I agree Totally, Don't Let them be initiates to begin with. Trading off
spell points for Karma!? Tell him to shove it and if he doesn't follow the
rules to make him use a different class so he doesn't abuse it.

Further Reading

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