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Message no. 1
From: Whiteclaw <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Students Of Power
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:36 -0500
The alliance of the students of power is a hermetic tradition. They are
basically a mage,without access to the astral,and only being able to
summon four completely new and different types of elementals.these
elementals are:the elemental of the true flame,the elemental of the
clear and pure waters,the elemental of the growing lands,and the
elemental of the swiftly blowing winds.They are just the normal
elementals,with new names but can only be called by a student of power.
They are summoned like a nature spirit,and can only stay around until
it's force is used up,it cannot be put on stand by like a normal
elemental,and must stay in LOS of their summoner,following the normal
elemental rules for the spirit just hamging around. The force is used up
1 point per hour,not including the F-points removed from different
services.The Student of power must use hermetic libraries,like every
other mage.
Message no. 2
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:06:26 EDT
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:36 -0500 Whiteclaw <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
>The alliance of the students of power is a hermetic tradition. They
>are
>basically a mage,without access to the astral,and only being able to
>summon four completely new and different types of elementals.these
>elementals are:the elemental of the true flame,the elemental of the
>clear and pure waters,the elemental of the growing lands,and the
>elemental of the swiftly blowing winds.They are just the normal
>elementals,with new names but can only be called by a student of
>power.


No astral access? What do they get to compensate? Two: what defines the
domains of the elementals that they summon? Do they even require domains?
A normal elemental requires source material, I assume that these require
source materials like their names indicate? Are there toxic versions of
these guys? Is there some difference in the mindset that makes them
different than the normal hermetic? If so, what? Doesn't lugging around
an entire conjuring library (even on chip) get rather cumbersome?
Wouldn't that make summoning in a Complex Action rather ... difficult?
Why are they called The Students of Power? Do they study magical
knowledge in order to gain power (of some form, whether political,
physical or otherwise)? Do they simply use magic to study the nature of
power of all kinds? Do they, as a group, have an agenda (world
domination, world peace, returning carp to the wild, etc)? Is this a
magical tradition, or a magical group?

Canthros
"...he'll ask you five questions-" "Three, sir" "-THREE
questions..."
Message no. 3
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:23:13 EDT
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:36 -0500 Whiteclaw <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
>The alliance of the students of power is a hermetic tradition. They are
>basically a mage... [..]

Why?

~Tim
Message no. 4
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:31 -0500
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Tim Cooper wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:36 -0500 Whiteclaw <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
> >The alliance of the students of power is a hermetic tradition. They are
> >basically a mage... [..]
>
> Why?
>
> ~Tim
>
Why Not!
Well people you told him to come up with his own Magical
Tradition and he did. I think that it also a halfway decent rough draft
for one. He posted it to the list to get our reactions. Now be nice and
treat this as such. I know he didn't take the time to put an intro on it
or pretty it up, but give him a break!Sheesh! I find it dic couraging when
the first two posts to a thread are quasi-flames!!!!

-=>Czar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http:\\www.creighton.edu\~czregbrt
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"I'll need morphine, lots of it, and a pistol."
-The English Patient
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:01:19 +0200
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Whiteclaw wrote about the almost unknown Alliance of
the Students of Power:

[...snip...]

OK, how about that for a background:

John Smithers, the founder of the Alliance, and a hi level initiate, once
ventured deep into the Metaplanes of Earth,Water,Air and Fire. There he
found secrets that forced several elementals to follow him instead of
their lords, breaking the pacts of millenia.

Obviously, the Elemental Lords were not pleased, and John Smiders became
persona non grata on the Elemental metaplanes. Due to the powers he had
unleashed his life was spared, but he was forever banned from the astral.

However, John felt that his new knowledge was worth the banishment from
the astral, and he started to experiment with his new powers.
Soon, he created an order of magicians, who are also banned from the
astral (since when they open themselves to the astral through perceiving
or projecting they are instantly burned, drowned, freezed or suffocated
to death).

About the rules:

8) It's 08:08 here, and I've been here from 01:00 typing like mad to catch
the dead-line, so... You'll have to make them. 8)

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 6
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:24:31 EDT
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:31 -0500 Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
writes:

>or pretty it up, but give him a break!Sheesh! I find it dic couraging
>when
>the first two posts to a thread are quasi-flames!!!!


*ahem* Quasi-flames? Are we being a little hyper-sensitive, Czar? The
questions asked were perfectly valid because no answers for them were
given. They are also questions which really should be answered (IMHO), if
only for completeness (such knowledge would also allow a person to better
integrate the idea with his/her campaign and/or make better use of them
in that camapaign). If it were a flame, I'd think it would been, well,
more hostile. I simply wanted to get answers for questions that, I
thought, needed answers. So sue me:P


Canthros
Message no. 7
From: The big Cheese <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:25:57 -0500
>
> No astral access? What do they get to compensate?

Instantaneous conjuration of elementals.

Two: what defines the
> domains of the elementals that they summon? Do they even require domains?

No domains,they are just uncomfortable when they are not near their own
element.

> A normal elemental requires source material, I assume that these require
> source materials like their names indicate?

you got it,just no mage ring.

>Are there toxic versions of
these guys?

<shudder>none that I know of.....


>Is there some difference in the mindset that makes them
> different than the normal hermetic?If so, what?

Well,they kinda have the Dog-boy(hiya Bio-hazard:))mind-set.They are
kinda the good guys,and despise blood-magic.They usually dont take real
strong combat spells unless they make it themselves.

>Doesn't lugging around
> an entire conjuring library (even on chip) get rather cumbersome?

I forgot to mention that they just have to learn how to conjure the
spirit they want to summon,at the force they want to summon it at ,and
its just like casting a spell.

> Wouldn't that make summoning in a Complex Action rather ... difficult?

Exactly.Thats why it takes two complex actions.

> Why are they called The Students of Power? Do they study magical
> knowledge in order to gain power (of some form, whether political,
> physical or otherwise)?

They study magical history,every-day magic, great works of
magic,etc.They learn new ways of looking at things,and grow in power
through their waysof looking at things

>Do they simply use magic to study the nature of
> power of all kinds?

See above comment.


Do they, as a group, have an agenda (world
> domination, world peace, returning carp to the wild, etc)?

Yes.They want to:beat the bugs and horrors into oblivion,bring world
peace(and make carp hurling an world-wide sport;))

>Is this a
> magical tradition, or a magical group?

Both.

> Canthros

Love your website.Go their every time I go 'net-surfing.
Message no. 8
From: The big Cheese <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:54:16 -0500
Technomancer wrote:

> OK, how about that for a background:
>
> John Smithers, the founder of the Alliance, and a hi level initiate, once
> ventured deep into the Metaplanes of Earth,Water,Air and Fire. There he
> found secrets that forced several elementals to follow him instead of
> their lords, breaking the pacts of millenia.
>
> Obviously, the Elemental Lords were not pleased, and John Smiders became
> persona non grata on the Elemental metaplanes. Due to the powers he had
> unleashed his life was spared, but he was forever banned from the astral.
>
> However, John felt that his new knowledge was worth the banishment from
> the astral, and he started to experiment with his new powers.
> Soon, he created an order of magicians, who are also banned from the
> astral (since when they open themselves to the astral through perceiving
> or projecting they are instantly burned, drowned, freezed or suffocated
> to death).

You forgot,buried alive;)
I really like this background you created.
Message no. 9
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:15:02 EDT
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:25:57 -0500 The big Cheese <elfman@*****.NET>
writes:
>>
>> No astral access? What do they get to compensate?
>
>Instantaneous conjuration of elementals.
>


Ah, but shamans get the ability to instantly conjure spirits (well,
within one Complex Action) and don't have any sort of astral penalties.
Do they get some sort of bonii for not having any astral access?
Especially since no astral access means no anchoring, no quickening, no
dispelling, no Great Form spirits, and no access to the majority of uses
for Centering.


> Two: what defines the
>> domains of the elementals that they summon? Do they even require
>domains?
>
>No domains,they are just uncomfortable when they are not near their
>own
>element.


How uncomfortable? Does one of their fire elementals freak out if he's
over open water? Does a water elemental get seriously bothered in the
desert? What happens to an earth elemental on a plane? Or an air
elemental in an underground cave? Do they avoid even getting into such
situations (to the point of disobedience)? Or do they just get ...
twitchy?


>> A normal elemental requires source material, I assume that these
>require
>> source materials like their names indicate?
>
>you got it,just no mage ring.


Do they still require a hermetic circle (of some sort) for ritual
sorcery, or do they require a more permanent (and versatile) structure?


>>Are there toxic versions of
> these guys?
>
> <shudder>none that I know of.....


Well, especially if there are to be any sort of large number of people
following this tradition, toxics could make for interesting plot devices.
<EGMG>


>
>>Is there some difference in the mindset that makes them
>> different than the normal hermetic?If so, what?
>
>Well,they kinda have the Dog-boy(hiya Bio-hazard:))mind-set.They are
>kinda the good guys,and despise blood-magic.They usually dont take
>real
>strong combat spells unless they make it themselves.


Why wouldn't they use heavy combat magic unless it's something they
designed themselves? I'd think they'd be more likely to not use much
offensive magic period, if you want to go that route, unless it was in
self-defense. (Hmmm...youl could go the route that Robert Jordan took
with the Aes Sedai in his Wheel of Time novels: the Aes Sedai are
forbidden to use the One Power [ie, magic] as a weapon except against
followers of the Dark One [the Bad Guy (tm)] or in the last defense of
their lives or the lives of their Warders). Even so, your above answer
doesn't really explain what I was looking for: why can't they access the
astral? Is this something to do with their beliefs?


>>Doesn't lugging around
>> an entire conjuring library (even on chip) get rather cumbersome?
>
>I forgot to mention that they just have to learn how to conjure the
>spirit they want to summon,at the force they want to summon it at
>,and
>its just like casting a spell.


Not to nitpick, but if you've already got this stuff figured out, it
would make it much easier to give advice if you'd let us know what you've
got when you've got it:) So, do they spend Force points to learn this
kind of thing, or is it automatically covered under the Conjuring skill?
Wouldn't this kind of conjuring (of elementals) be massively more
draining than the normal route, due to the fact that elementals generally
don't respond as quickly as the nature spirits? When you say that it is
'just like casting a spell', how do you mean that? If you're rolling the
Force of the spirit versus a target number to determine services and the
like, you'll wind up with a seriously out-of-whack system (higher force
spirits would be more easily conjured and have a greater number of
services to boot!)


>> Wouldn't that make summoning in a Complex Action rather ...
>difficult?
>
>Exactly.Thats why it takes two complex actions.


Again, you didn't say this in the original message. If you're coming up
with some of these answers as you go along, that's fine:) but I can get
confused real easy:)


>> Why are they called The Students of Power? Do they study magical
>> knowledge in order to gain power (of some form, whether political,
>> physical or otherwise)?
>
>They study magical history,every-day magic, great works of
>magic,etc.They learn new ways of looking at things,and grow in power
>through their waysof looking at things


:) Okay, how do they look at things? Why does this mindset allow them to
'grow in power'? And why Students of _Power_, as opposed to something
which indicates that it is magical power that they study (like, say The
Students of <insert leader/founder/deity/etc's name here>)? BTW, I'm
really not picking on you, I'm just curious:)



> Do they, as a group, have an agenda (world
>> domination, world peace, returning carp to the wild, etc)?
>
>Yes.They want to:beat the bugs and horrors into oblivion,bring world
>peace(and make carp hurling an world-wide sport;))


Just remember that the Horrors aren't exactly public knowledge (or
shouldn't be, anyway). How do they plan to go about making world peace?
Do they intend to make world peace by forcing everyone to obey one
person/group (namely, themselves)? (Note: if the normal members of this
group intend on a world peace based on a cooperative world economy, the
toxics could be working for a world 'peace' which exists because they
rule over the world>:) They're an ambitious bunch, eh?



>> Canthros
>
>Love your website.Go their every time I go 'net-surfing.


I'm flattered:)


Canthros
Message no. 10
From: The big Cheese <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:16:53 -0500
>
> Ah, but shamans get the ability to instantly conjure spirits (well,
> within one Complex Action) and don't have any sort of astral penalties.
> Do they get some sort of bonii for not having any astral access?
> Especially since no astral access means no anchoring, no quickening, no
> dispelling, no Great Form spirits, and no access to the majority of uses
> for Centering.

Yes,:2 more attribute points,3 more skill points,and 4 more force
points.

> >No domains,they are just uncomfortable when they are not near their
> >own
> >element.
>
> How uncomfortable? Does one of their fire elementals freak out if he's
> over open water?

Not quite,but very close to freaking out but he does get nervous,start
worrying about whether the plane will crash,etc,etc,etc.

Does a water elemental get seriously bothered in the
> desert?

Yes.If a water elemental comes in contact with a hot place,it try to go
piggy back with its owner(this could provide some memorable roleplaying
experiences....).

What happens to an earth elemental on a plane? Or an air
> elemental in an underground cave?

you dont want to know...


> Do they still require a hermetic circle (of some sort) for ritual
> sorcery, or do they require a more permanent (and versatile) structure?

I called a hermetic circle a mage ring,and no they do not need the
circle.

> Well, especially if there are to be any sort of large number of people
> following this tradition, toxics could make for interesting plot devices.
> <EGMG>

thanks for the Idea<EGMC>(evil GM cackle)


> Why wouldn't they use heavy combat magic unless it's something they
> designed themselves?
Because the need to be unique is too strong,and the combat spells they
desighn are usually messier than a normal combat spell

Even so, your above answer
> doesn't really explain what I was looking for: why can't they access the
> astral? Is this something to do with their beliefs?

Yes,because they made the elemental lords very mad,and if they
project,or even perceive,all the bad elemental effects known to man will
attack him at once.

> >I forgot to mention that they just have to learn how to conjure the
> >spirit they want to summon,at the force they want to summon it at
> >,and
> >its just like casting a spel
> Not to nitpick, but if you've already got this stuff figured out, it
> would make it much easier to give advice if you'd let us know what you've
> got when you've got it:)

I'm an on the fly type person...

>So, do they spend Force points to learn this
> kind of thing, or is it automatically covered under the Conjuring skill?

They have to spend the force points,putting it under the conjuring skill
would make it unbalanced.

> Wouldn't this kind of conjuring (of elementals) be massively more
> draining than the normal route, due to the fact that elementals generally
> don't respond as quickly as the nature spirits?

Thats the equalizers.

When you say that it is
> 'just like casting a spell', how do you mean that? If you're rolling the
> Force of the spirit versus a target number to determine services and the
> like, you'll wind up with a seriously out-of-whack system (higher force
> spirits would be more easily conjured and have a greater number of
> services to boot!)

the target number is the conjures charisma,divided by 2,rounde down,and
any successes the elemental makes causes it to escape,no matter how many
successes the conjurer would have had.

> >> Wouldn't that make summoning in a Complex Action rather ...
> >difficult?
> >
> >Exactly.Thats why it takes two complex actions.
>
> Again, you didn't say this in the original message. If you're coming up
> with some of these answers as you go along, that's fine:) but I can get
> confused real easy:)
>

Yes I'm making this stuff up.But only to answer your questions.

>
> :) Okay, how do they look at things?

Through a very open mind-set which keeps expanding,until they die.

>Why does this mindset allow them to
> 'grow in power'? And why Students of _Power_, as opposed to something
> which indicates that it is magical power that they study (like, say The
> Students of <insert leader/founder/deity/etc's name here>)? BTW, I'm
> really not picking on you, I'm just curious:)

I just want it that way,okay?


> Just remember that the Horrors aren't exactly public knowledge (or
> shouldn't be, anyway). How do they plan to go about making world peace?
> Do they intend to make world peace by forcing everyone to obey one
> person/group (namely, themselves)? (Note: if the normal members of this
> group intend on a world peace based on a cooperative world economy, the
> toxics could be working for a world 'peace' which exists because they
> rule over the world>:) They're an ambitious bunch, eh?
>

No way!!! They are the quasi-good guys.They want a world-wide democracy.

> >Love your website.Go their every time I go 'net-surfing.
>
> I'm flattered:)

Well it's true.Any more comments?
Message no. 11
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:16:08 -0700
>... So sue me:P

Sir [hands envelope to Canthros]..You have been served..You are being
sued for overagressive question asking in the first degree. Have a
nice day ...

You said it not me :P
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 12
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:21:50 -0700
> >you got it,just no mage ring.
> Do they still require a hermetic circle (of some sort) for ritual
> sorcery, or do they require a more permanent (and versatile) structure?

I would make them have to at least draw a small circle in the dirt to
keep it more hermetically oriented..
Another bonus: no 1000 -Y- per rating point of conjuring materials...

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 13
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:08:09 -0500
On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, John E Pederson wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:31 -0500 Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
> writes:
>
> >or pretty it up, but give him a break!Sheesh! I find it dic couraging
> >when
> >the first two posts to a thread are quasi-flames!!!!
>
>
> *ahem* Quasi-flames? Are we being a little hyper-sensitive, Czar? The
> questions asked were perfectly valid because no answers for them were
> given. They are also questions which really should be answered (IMHO), if
> only for completeness (such knowledge would also allow a person to better
> integrate the idea with his/her campaign and/or make better use of them
> in that camapaign). If it were a flame, I'd think it would been, well,
> more hostile. I simply wanted to get answers for questions that, I
> thought, needed answers. So sue me:P
>
>
> Canthros

>
I appoligise for being a bit over anxious, but it seemed that
every time WhitClaw posted something everyone pounced on it without
looking at it. Your questions seemed just a bit aggresive, like you were
making fun of the idea. I have sence seen that you were just curious, and
not just dumping on him :)...
Soka?
-=>Czar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http:\\www.creighton.edu\~czregbrt
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"I'll need morphine, lots of it, and a pistol."
-The English Patient
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:05:59 EDT
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:31 -0500 Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
writes:
>On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Tim Cooper wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:36 -0500 Whiteclaw <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
>> >The alliance of the students of power is a hermetic tradition. They
are
>> >basically a mage... [..]
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> ~Tim
>>
>Why Not!
> Well people you told him to come up with his own Magical
>Tradition and he did. [...]

Well, not quite... the first line states that they are hermetics (an
already established tradition), and they basically summon elementals as
if they were spirits. Nothing new there..just playing mix 'n match with
the abilities of two predefined traditions.

Sorry, I just don't see the need for it.

If it's going to be new, it should really be NEW.. something that isn't
just a permutation of something that already exists. Take a look at the
Voudoun rules.. while they still make use of conjuring and sorcery
(basically the 'root level' abilities of a magician) the details are very
much different from how a 'traditional' hermetic or shaman works.

~Tim
Message no. 15
From: Q <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:31:31 -0500
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Tim Cooper wrote:

[snip discussions on originality]

> If it's going to be new, it should really be NEW.. something that isn't
> just a permutation of something that already exists. Take a look at the
> Voudoun rules.. while they still make use of conjuring and sorcery
> (basically the 'root level' abilities of a magician) the details are very
> much different from how a 'traditional' hermetic or shaman works.

Hmmmm...if you want to see a completely different magical tradition, wait
until I'm done designing my system for Navajo ritualism. I'm basing it on
actual Navajo mythology and beliefs. Should be killer when it's done.

-Q

---------------------------------------
Infinitus est numerus stultorum.

Scott "Q" Meyer
Scott.E.Meyer@*******.edu
http://johnh.wheaton.edu/~smeyer
Message no. 16
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Students Of Power
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:20:58 EDT
On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:31:31 -0500 Q <Scott.E.Meyer@*******.EDU> writes:

>Hmmmm...if you want to see a completely different magical tradition,
wait
>until I'm done designing my system for Navajo ritualism. I'm basing it
on
>actual Navajo mythology and beliefs. Should be killer when it's done.

Sure.

~Tim

Further Reading

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