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Message no. 1
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:30:51 -0700
I have a question concerning health spells and stun damage. Could spells
be made to resist or treat/heal stun damage? I don't see why not (make a
Resist Fatigue/Concussion/Stun/??? spell similar to Resist Pain or
something; Treat Stun, Heal Stun), but some people have the problem with a
statement, taken from page 112 SRII:

"Resting is the only way that Stun damage can be recovered. No medical
treatment really helps, nor does any magical spell currently known to man."

Fatigue, bruises (minor physical annoyances), concussions, IMO, are
effects that should be able to be removed by magic, or ignored/resisted,
much more easily than healing a target's wounds.
Has anyone implemented such spells? What have the effects been? Are there
reasons not to?

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:46:35 -0700
Matthew Johnson wrote:
/
/ I have a question concerning health spells and stun damage. Could spells
/ be made to resist or treat/heal stun damage? I don't see why not (make a
/ Resist Fatigue/Concussion/Stun/??? spell similar to Resist Pain or
/ something; Treat Stun, Heal Stun), but some people have the problem with a
/ statement, taken from page 112 SRII:
/
/ "Resting is the only way that Stun damage can be recovered. No medical
/ treatment really helps, nor does any magical spell currently known to man."
/
/ Fatigue, bruises (minor physical annoyances), concussions, IMO, are
/ effects that should be able to be removed by magic, or ignored/resisted,
/ much more easily than healing a target's wounds.
/ Has anyone implemented such spells? What have the effects been? Are there
/ reasons not to?

Here's the best reason not to. The mage heals the Sam and takes
drain. He heals the drain. The mage heals the decker and takes
drain. He heals the drain. The mage heals the rigger and takes
drain. He heals the drain. The mage heals the detective.

Or, the mage casts a Hellblast. He heals the drain. He casts
another hellblast. Etc.

If you allow a mage to heal stun damage then Drain becomes a moot
point. I know from experience (because I missed the line that you
quoted above). The mage was way outta control. Know he's a cautious
little puppy.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:06:32 +0000
And verily, did Matthew Johnson hastily scribble thusly...
|
| I have a question concerning health spells and stun damage. Could spells
|be made to resist or treat/heal stun damage?

Nope....

| I don't see why not

It's in homage to the great got "Game Balance".
If you could heal stun, every mage in the world would jump for joy, because
his final limitation had gone.

(They could cast 6D stun spells, followed by heal stun spells, and keep on
casting all day.... (Or a pair could heal each other when they got
knackered...)
--
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|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
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Message no. 4
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:20:58 -0500
At 01:06 AM 11/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Nope....

>| I don't see why not
>
>It's in homage to the great got "Game Balance".
>If you could heal stun, every mage in the world would jump for joy, because
>his final limitation had gone.
>
>(They could cast 6D stun spells, followed by heal stun spells, and keep on
>casting all day.... (Or a pair could heal each other when they got
>knackered...)

The problem here is that since stun damage is considered easier to heal
naturally, it *ought* to be easily healed with magic, yes? Hmm. Me, I've
always hated the 'stim patch damages magic' rule, and this one is close in
the game-balance arena. I always figured that a non-addictive stimulant
was just an odd idea, given what that thing does, it'd be abused in any
number of ways and probably end up with a lot of people with a
'psychological addiction' to it.

However, recall the rules on standard healing, that it must be done over a
long period of time and/or sustained for a time to be permanent. It's a
great fix-up after a fight, but not something you'd do during a fight, is
it? Even after a fight, you can't do it on the run, for fear of losing
concentration or needing your attention for the getaway. Though of course,
it still would cause problems with balance. Mages are enough of an
advantage already on a run.

So perhaps then the idea is to come up with a good explanation why the
*caster* can't benefit from fatigue-healing spells. Simply: the forces
involved to heal such damage generally generate fatigue equal to that one
started with. Now you can cast spells to heal fatigue on others, basically
ending up with that fatigue yourself in the process (i.e. mechanics-wise,
it's difficult to resist the drain from casting). This allows mages to
heal bruises and the like from fistfights without being able to heal their
spell drain and keep on like the Energizer Bunny, since I always thought it
silly that stun was harder to heal than physical damage. Exactly what
those drain targets should be, I'm not sure, but perhaps we could come up
with something? :) Really all this trouble stems from the physical vs.
stun damage differences in SR, and the fact that spell drain is lumped into
one of them.

And there's something I would like to see better defined in SR3: damage
levels, what sorts of damage they equate to, especially stun damage (since
it's really, really vague), and perhaps what sort of things might cause a
given level of stun or physical damage. Is staying up for three days
straight Serious Stun damage, for instance?

losthalo, still fighting with the SR rules :)
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:57:09 +0100
Matthew Johnson said on 14:30/10 Nov 97...

> Fatigue, bruises (minor physical annoyances), concussions, IMO, are
> effects that should be able to be removed by magic, or ignored/resisted,
> much more easily than healing a target's wounds.

The reason I think FASA added the rule that Stun damage cannot be
magically healed is to prevent things like:

Mage: "Damn, I've gotten quite fatigued by all that Drain. I know, I'll
cast a Remove Drain spell to get rid of some of it in 10 seconds rather
than rest for five hours!"

With a spell like that, the magician would remove some Stun damage, and if
the Drain Resistance Test goes well, not get any more from Drain. It gets
even better/worse (delete as per your viewpoint) if such a spell is cast
one someone else.

> Has anyone implemented such spells? What have the effects been?
> Are there reasons not to?

I haven't tried spells like this, but I do know some exist. At least one
of them is only temporary, in that it gives you back the Stun damage it
took away after some time. I think the best way to handle such a spell is
to make it Sustained -- it removes a number of Stun boxes equal to the
number of successes rolled for as long as the caster concentrates on it,
but as soon as he or she stops doing that, the damage comes back.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:42:23 -0700
losthalo wrote:
/
/ At 01:06 AM 11/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
[snip: using Heal to heal Stun damage?]
/ >It's in homage to the great got "Game Balance".
/ >If you could heal stun, every mage in the world would jump for joy, because
/ >his final limitation had gone.
/ >
/ >(They could cast 6D stun spells, followed by heal stun spells, and keep on
/ >casting all day.... (Or a pair could heal each other when they got
/ >knackered...)
/
/ The problem here is that since stun damage is considered easier to heal
/ naturally, it *ought* to be easily healed with magic, yes?

/ So perhaps then the idea is to come up with a good explanation why the
/ *caster* can't benefit from fatigue-healing spells.

/ This allows mages to
/ heal bruises and the like from fistfights without being able to heal their
/ spell drain and keep on like the Energizer Bunny, since I always thought it
/ silly that stun was harder to heal than physical damage.

/ Really all this trouble stems from the physical vs.
/ stun damage differences in SR, and the fact that spell drain is lumped into
/ one of them.

You're making a misconception. Stun damage isn't damage. Bruises
are Physical damage (the last time I had a bruise it took several
days to heal, not a few hours). Stun is disorientation, fatigue,
etc, and you *recover* from that. With Stun there's nothing to Heal,
so the spell doesn't work.

I could see a sustained Stimulation spell being used to counter the
effects of Stun. But I would rule that the spell wouldn't allow you
to recover from the Stun (it's jacking up your system) so once the
spell drops, you suffer from the effects of the Stun and have to
recover normally. Of course the spell itself would generate Drain
for the caster so it would be counter-productive for a mage to cast
it on himself unless he was really good (and even then he would be
dealing with the +2 spell casting modifier for sustaining the
spell).

Say, has anyone made a Pain Resistance Spell?

/ And there's something I would like to see better defined in SR3: damage
/ levels, what sorts of damage they equate to, especially stun damage (since
/ it's really, really vague), and perhaps what sort of things might cause a
/ given level of stun or physical damage. Is staying up for three days
/ straight Serious Stun damage, for instance?

I agree with you on this one. Just use GM judgement until FASA gets
something figured out (or you could do it yourself and submit it to
FASA for inclusion in SR3 :)

/ losthalo, still fighting with the SR rules :)

"It's just like wrastlin a bear. Invigoratin, yet intoxicatin."

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:18:51 GMT
David Buehrer writes
> Say, has anyone made a Pain Resistance Spell?
>
Well theres a spell of that name in GR2 so i think FASA has :)

i assume you mean that works on stun damage, not AFAIK, anchoring and
such a spell and well be are back to 'drain whats the relevance of
that???' syndrome.

(as the mage keels over the anchored aliviate Deadly stun spell goes
off and he ignores the effects of the force X hellblast that just
turned everyone else into torches...[well till he gets home to sleep
it off safely] )

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:47:55 +0000
> You're making a misconception. Stun damage isn't damage. Bruises
> are Physical damage (the last time I had a bruise it took several
> days to heal, not a few hours). Stun is disorientation, fatigue,
> etc, and you *recover* from that. With Stun there's nothing to Heal,
> so the spell doesn't work.


Not really. Melee Combat causes stun damage. When the troll with
strength 10 Unarmed 6 whacks you, and you take serious stun damage,
you better believe you have at least a bruise. Stun damage seems to
be any physical damage that is mild enough to cause no serious
infliction after a few hours of rest. Bruises, bloody noses,
headaches, etc. Heck, in my game, many minor gashes fall into this
category....it adds to role-playing to realize this. When you sleep
off that serious stun, that doesn't mean you are healed, it just
means the modifiers are not enough to count as a +1. When the
characters and GM play this, it adds to the world.

Mages take drain in my games can suffer bloody noses, headaches, or
other physical symptoms, having no additional game effect other than
adding to the atmosphere.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 9
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:44:53 +0000
On 11 Nov 97, Mark Steedman disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

> David Buehrer writes
> > Say, has anyone made a Pain Resistance Spell?

> Well theres a spell of that name in GR2 so i think FASA has :)
>
> i assume you mean that works on stun damage, not AFAIK, anchoring
> and such a spell and well be are back to 'drain whats the relevance
> of that???' syndrome.
>
> (as the mage keels over the anchored aliviate Deadly stun spell goes
> off and he ignores the effects of the force X hellblast that just
> turned everyone else into torches...[well till he gets home to sleep
> it off safely] )

Not really. The damage is still there, you just don't feel the pain.
So, IOW, the boxes are filled, the penalties do not apply, though.

The mage casts another hellblast and his veins burst, giving him a
nasty internal hemmoraging (sp?) that causes him to lose
consciousness and die after half an hour.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
A confident manner is important: Computers can sense this!
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:02:54 -0700
Brett Borger wrote:
/
/ > You're making a misconception. Stun damage isn't damage. Bruises
/ > are Physical damage (the last time I had a bruise it took several
/ > days to heal, not a few hours). Stun is disorientation, fatigue,
/ > etc, and you *recover* from that. With Stun there's nothing to Heal,
/ > so the spell doesn't work.
/
/ Not really. Melee Combat causes stun damage. When the troll with
/ strength 10 Unarmed 6 whacks you, and you take serious stun damage,
/ you better believe you have at least a bruise. Stun damage seems to
/ be any physical damage that is mild enough to cause no serious
/ infliction after a few hours of rest. Bruises, bloody noses,
/ headaches, etc. Heck, in my game, many minor gashes fall into this
/ category....it adds to role-playing to realize this. When you sleep
/ off that serious stun, that doesn't mean you are healed, it just
/ means the modifiers are not enough to count as a +1. When the
/ characters and GM play this, it adds to the world.

Would you believe that's what I was trying to say? :) My basic
premise is that a Heal spell won't work vs Stun because of Stun's
intangible quality. It can be related to physical damage, but it
isn't physical damage per se.

/ Mages take drain in my games can suffer bloody noses, headaches, or
/ other physical symptoms, having no additional game effect other than
/ adding to the atmosphere.

Cool. I'm gonna start doing that.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:06:05 -0500
> You're making a misconception. Stun damage isn't damage. Bruises
> are Physical damage (the last time I had a bruise it took several
> days to heal, not a few hours). Stun is disorientation, fatigue,
> etc, and you *recover* from that. With Stun there's nothing to Heal,
> so the spell doesn't work.

Actually, there is a physical component to stun damage. Fatigue is caused
by build ups of lactic acid and disorientation by problems with the inner
ear. Further, if stun damage can cause loss of consciousness, then it has
a treatable physical component, i.e., the unconsciousness. I doubt even
the most ardent mage-haters would object to a simple awaken spell that
would remove one box of stun damage. As well, it should be entirely
possible to develop a 'remove lactic acid' spell to treat the effects of
fatigue or design spell that fool the body into thinking that it has
gotten enough rest, thus triggering the hormones which give us that
normal, awake feeling.
Message no. 12
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:07:32 -0500
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Mark Steedman wrote:

> David Buehrer writes
> > Say, has anyone made a Pain Resistance Spell?
> >
> Well theres a spell of that name in GR2 so i think FASA has :)
>
> i assume you mean that works on stun damage, not AFAIK, anchoring and
> such a spell and well be are back to 'drain whats the relevance of
> that???' syndrome.
>
> (as the mage keels over the anchored aliviate Deadly stun spell goes
> off and he ignores the effects of the force X hellblast that just
> turned everyone else into torches...[well till he gets home to sleep
> it off safely] )
>
> Mark
>
AFAIK, the spell only goes up to a resist Serious damage.
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:03:04 +0000
> Actually, there is a physical component to stun damage. Fatigue is caused
> by build ups of lactic acid and disorientation by problems with the inner
> ear. Further, if stun damage can cause loss of consciousness, then it has
> a treatable physical component, i.e., the unconsciousness. I doubt even
> the most ardent mage-haters would object to a simple awaken spell that
> would remove one box of stun damage. As well, it should be entirely
> possible to develop a 'remove lactic acid' spell to treat the effects of
> fatigue or design spell that fool the body into thinking that it has
> gotten enough rest, thus triggering the hormones which give us that
> normal, awake feeling.

I'd object, and I'm a frequent player of mages. The way I see it,
Stun damage from magic has a physical component that is a reflection
of the astral effect. Stun from a physical source lacks this astral
component. Therefore I have no problem with a spell to heal stun
from a physical source, but stun from casting magic I do.

Of course, all of this is a rationalization foar game balance. That
"1 box" of drain you talk about is what keeps mages in line. the +1
modifier really makes a difference.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:18:32 +0000
On 11 Nov 97 at 11:47, Brett Borger wrote:
[snip Stun dam no 'real' damage]
> Not really. Melee Combat causes stun damage. When the troll with
> strength 10 Unarmed 6 whacks you, and you take serious stun damage,
> you better believe you have at least a bruise. Stun damage seems to
> be any physical damage that is mild enough to cause no serious
> infliction after a few hours of rest. Bruises, bloody noses,
> headaches, etc.
Unfortunately speaking from own experience, I have to say damage taken
in melee combat is _not_ healed in a few hours, nor are the side
effects (pain, reduced movement etc). Broken or nearly-broken ribs,
bruises (hematomae ?) in muscle tissue and the like do hinder one's
movements, and are not gone within the healing times SR2 points out.

OTOH, you are right: These are exactly the 'wounds' one receives in
unarmed combat. What do we learn from it? Probably that SR2 is a game
that rules playability above reality. That is well balanced, and we
should see statements like SR2,p.154 ("No techniques known to magic can
erase fatigue or cure mental conditions, however") as ways to preserve
this delicate balance - perhaps?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'That's Bushido,' said |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | Delphia. |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | 'Oh, yeah? Around here |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| they call it the law of|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | the street.' |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ----(N.Pollotta)-+
Message no. 15
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:46:41 EST
> be made to resist or treat/heal stun damage? I don't see why not
> (make a Resist Fatigue/Concussion/Stun/??? spell similar to Resist
> Pain or something; Treat Stun, Heal Stun), but some people have the
> problem with a statement, taken from page 112 SRII:

AS long as you aren't healing the actual damage, I don't see why you
can't treat the symptoms. An old KaGe issue has a series of spells
just as you describe.


>
> Fatigue, bruises (minor physical annoyances), concussions,
> IMO, are
> effects that should be able to be removed by magic, or
> ignored/resisted, much more easily than healing a target's wounds.
> Has anyone implemented such spells? What have the effects
> been? Are there
> reasons not to?

Game balance is the primary motivation....if a mage can heal stun,
you have removed the single thing restraining him. Given this
motivation, one can rationalize why not as easily as you can
rationalize why.

Personally, I'd only allow spells that would cure the symptoms (but
not the damage) or one that didn't work on drain induced stun. That
last however has nasty effects with the thought of healing magically
induced damage, so.....

At the moment, I allow nothing, and none of my mages are complaining.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 16
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:37:23 -0500
> OTOH, you are right: These are exactly the 'wounds' one receives in
> unarmed combat. What do we learn from it? Probably that SR2 is a game
> that rules playability above reality. That is well balanced, and we
> should see statements like SR2,p.154 ("No techniques known to magic can
> erase fatigue or cure mental conditions, however") as ways to preserve
> this delicate balance - perhaps?
>
However, that does not seem to jive with a number of spells which do just
that- alleviate mental conditions. Spells affecting allergies and
addictions would seem to be disallowed by SR's own magic system.
Message no. 17
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:59:35 EST
> > Not really. Melee Combat causes stun damage. When the troll with
> > strength 10 Unarmed 6 whacks you, and you take serious stun damage,

> Unfortunately speaking from own experience, I have to say damage
> taken in melee combat is _not_ healed in a few hours, nor are the
> side effects (pain, reduced movement etc). Broken or nearly-broken
> ribs, bruises (hematomae ?) in muscle tissue and the like do hinder
> one's movements, and are not gone within the healing times SR2
> points out.

I absolutely agree. I always found it annoying that it is impossible
to kill someone in Unarmed Combat in SR without knocking them out
first. Take all comments above as preceeded by "In SR"

I agree with the concept that minor injuries have no significant
effect after a few hours and can be considered Stun damage. I
disagree with the concept that a strength 10 troll with a decent
unarmed skill causes these minor injuries. :)

> OTOH, you are right: These are exactly the 'wounds' one receives in
> unarmed combat. What do we learn from it? Probably that SR2 is a
> game that rules playability above reality. That is well balanced,
> and we should see statements like SR2,p.154 ("No techniques known to
> magic can erase fatigue or cure mental conditions, however") as ways
> to preserve this delicate balance - perhaps?

Game balance in definitely involved, but some better Unarmed combat
damage would be great. I allow damage in my game to be made physical
for 1/2 power, as with Bone Lacing, but I'm not totally happy with
that.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 18
From: QKSilver <qksilver282@*****.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:21:50 -0500
On November 11, 1997 5:00 PM Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Wrote:

[Snip]
>I always found it annoying that it is impossible to kill someone in
>Unarmed Combat in SR without knocking them out first. Take
>all comments above as preceeded by "In SR"

>I agree with the concept that minor injuries have no significant
>effect after a few hours and can be considered Stun damage. I
>disagree with the concept that a strength 10 troll with a decent
>unarmed skill causes these minor injuries. :)

[snip]

>Game balance in definitely involved, but some better Unarmed combat
>damage would be great. I allow damage in my game to be made physical
>for 1/2 power, as with Bone Lacing, but I'm not totally happy with
>that.

>-=SwiftOne=-

Fields of Fire provides alternate physical damage rules for unarmed
combat:

[Pg. 83
Physical and Stun Damage
Characters may use weapons listed as inflicting Stun Damage to inflict
Physical Damage, such as clubs, fists and so on. A character must add +4 to
the Target Number and weapon damage remains the same but is Physical instead
of Stun.]

Not the best way but it's pretty good. We've been using the rule in our
games for some time now and it works fine - Hard to hit though. Remember
that a weapons reach is added to the Roll.

QuickSilver
Message no. 19
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:07:06 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-10 16:46:48 EST, mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

> I have a question concerning health spells and stun damage. Could
> spells
> be made to resist or treat/heal stun damage? I don't see why not (make a
> Resist Fatigue/Concussion/Stun/??? spell similar to Resist Pain or
> something; Treat Stun, Heal Stun), but some people have the problem with a
> statement, taken from page 112 SRII:

You are correct in your idea, but in the GM Mechanics/Game Controls, you know
why inherently.

> "Resting is the only way that Stun damage can be recovered. No
> medical
> treatment really helps, nor does any magical spell currently known to
man."
>
> Fatigue, bruises (minor physical annoyances), concussions, IMO,
are
> effects that should be able to be removed by magic, or ignored/resisted,
> much more easily than healing a target's wounds.
> Has anyone implemented such spells? What have the effects been?
Are
> there
> reasons not to?

I have ruled in the games here that "physical stun" stuff (like from
Concussion Grenades and Bar Brawls) is treatable. Mentally oriented stuff,
NO WAY!!! I did that once, and learned the reasons first hand.

BUT, you can create spells that "augment" one's recuperative abilities. Sort
of a variation on the Oxygenate spell. Basically it just augments the
recuperative powers of a body/mind. Sure, it doesn't help against the
spell/conjuring itself, but it will help in alleviating/removing the effects
faster.

-K
Message no. 20
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:48:15 -0700
> From: J. Keith Henry <Ereskanti@***.COM>
> In a message dated 97-11-10 16:46:48 EST, mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
> > I have a question concerning health spells and stun damage.
Could
> > spells
> > be made to resist or treat/heal stun damage? I don't see why not (make
a
> > Resist Fatigue/Concussion/Stun/??? spell similar to Resist Pain or
> > something; Treat Stun, Heal Stun), but some people have the problem
with a
> > statement, taken from page 112 SRII:
>
> You are correct in your idea, but in the GM Mechanics/Game Controls, you
know
> why inherently.
> > Fatigue, bruises (minor physical annoyances), concussions,
IMO,
> are
> > effects that should be able to be removed by magic, or
ignored/resisted,
> > much more easily than healing a target's wounds.
>
> I have ruled in the games here that "physical stun" stuff (like from
> Concussion Grenades and Bar Brawls) is treatable. Mentally oriented
stuff,
> NO WAY!!! I did that once, and learned the reasons first hand.
>
> BUT, you can create spells that "augment" one's recuperative abilities.
Sort
> of a variation on the Oxygenate spell. Basically it just augments the
> recuperative powers of a body/mind. Sure, it doesn't help against the
> spell/conjuring itself, but it will help in alleviating/removing the
effects
> faster.
I think this mentality has convinced me the most. I'm not too familiar on
the technicalities of the differences between the types of stun damage, but
it seems more logical to me to be able to treat the "physical stun" that
you mention. Would "mental stun" be akin to mental trauma one might receive
from chemicals or drugs? I'm not clear on the type of stun drain leaves a
mage with.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~mjohnson
ftp://150.135.184.121 login: anonymous pw: email
----------------------------
Message no. 21
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:27:14 GMT
Jeremiah Stevens writes
> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> > David Buehrer writes
> > > Say, has anyone made a Pain Resistance Spell?
> > >
> > Well theres a spell of that name in GR2 so i think FASA has :)
> >
read the message again pausing here.

> > i assume you mean that works on stun damage, not AFAIK, anchoring and
> > such a spell and well be are back to 'drain whats the relevance of
> > that???' syndrome.
> >
> > (as the mage keels over the anchored aliviate Deadly stun spell goes
> > off and he ignores the effects of the force X hellblast that just
> > turned everyone else into torches...[well till he gets home to sleep
> > it off safely] )
> >
> > Mark
> >
> AFAIK, the spell only goes up to a resist Serious damage.
>
the ones in the book do, but then they only work on physical so as we
are on research spells whats to stop someone designing a 'resist
deadly stun spell', a pain editor already does that effect through
cyberware/bioware.

It does reach the same point as 'why don't i design an increase
reflexes +10D6 spell, with personal only modifiers the drains only
about ((F/2)+10)D! and i only ever want to cast it once!'. Needless
to say there comes a point where the GM has to put his/her foot down
on things and put a limit on things at about the best listed in the
book now. (though that doesn't stop the 'armnour spell, one spell
lock, a pack of elementals and and armload of fetish foci' problem
which i am going to ban in future simply because the results are way
beyond what the creators of the system ever intended to be possible,
ie body attributes over 50 are plain OTT and require far too many
dice!)

Mark
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:30:37 GMT
Leszek Karlik writes
> > > Say, has anyone made a Pain Resistance Spell?
>
> > Well theres a spell of that name in GR2 so i think FASA has :)
> >
> > i assume you mean that works on stun damage, not AFAIK, anchoring
> > and such a spell and well be are back to 'drain whats the relevance
> > of that???' syndrome.
> >
> > (as the mage keels over the anchored aliviate Deadly stun spell goes
> > off and he ignores the effects of the force X hellblast that just
> > turned everyone else into torches...[well till he gets home to sleep
> > it off safely] )
>
> Not really. The damage is still there, you just don't feel the pain.
> So, IOW, the boxes are filled, the penalties do not apply, though.
>
> The mage casts another hellblast and his veins burst, giving him a
> nasty internal hemmoraging (sp?) that causes him to lose
> consciousness and die after half an hour.
>
But i wasn't thinking of casting another. I think being able to cast
the first, toast all the bad guys and run away before the next backup
shows up is bad enough given that if the drain from the first one had
knocked you out thier backup would find their burning remains and one
unconcious mage, pity help that mage! assuming he wakes up again its
not going to be very nice, torture would be mild for what most
corporators etc would feel like doing to you. (cause the guilty party
is not hard to discern)

Mark
Message no. 23
From: Wilson Reis de Souza Neto <wilson@*****.CETUC.PUC-RIO.BR>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:32:01 GMT-3
Just a question....

Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??

I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
The point is:
The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
he regenerate the Drain??????????
Message no. 24
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:23:39 GMT
Wilson Reis de Souza Neto writes

> Just a question....
>
> Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??
>
opinions vary, however consensus has tended towards 'regeneration is
physical not stun' however the rules don't say and there are a few
points to bear in mind.
'GM's discretion' :)
it notes that critters should vary to keep the players on thier toes,
so some wendigos may regenerate stun, some might not, and even FASA
back you up on it varying!

> I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
> The point is:
> The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
> he regenerate the Drain??????????
>
Totally up to you.

In this case i would feel inclined to ignore the rules and set the
answer based on an interesting adventure, if you think they will kisk
the Wendigos proverbial ass if it cannot throw magic with wild
abandon let it regenerate drain, if you think they will get wiped out
if the things magic isn't limited don't let it regenerate drain.

It's not as if the players are going to able to tell except by your
descriptions wether the things regenerating the drain or simply
resisting it all.

--

The biggest problem with regeneration is not drain but the fact that
the KISS simple implementation used results in an 'all or nothing'
regeneration at the end of the round when the critter is either
miraculously better or dead, i prefer to fiddle with that.

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:34 +0000
> Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??
>
> I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
> The point is:
> The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
> he regenerate the Drain??????????

Tom Dowd said yes at one point in time. I'd go with that.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 26
From: Wilson Reis de Souza Neto <wilson@*****.CETUC.PUC-RIO.BR>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:37:39 GMT-3
> Wilson Reis de Souza Neto writes
>
> > Just a question....
> >
> > Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??
> >
> opinions vary, however consensus has tended towards 'regeneration is
> physical not stun' however the rules don't say and there are a few
> points to bear in mind.
> 'GM's discretion' :)
> it notes that critters should vary to keep the players on thier toes,
> so some wendigos may regenerate stun, some might not, and even FASA
> back you up on it varying!
>
> > I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
> > The point is:
> > The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
> > he regenerate the Drain??????????
> >
> Totally up to you.
>
<snip>

Thanks a lot!

Just to explain:

The players have done research 'bout the Wendy and his powers.
It's the first time they do fight one.
They have meet the Wendy and it was kinda disastrous, but the fight
was a quick one (THe players and the wendy fled, Lone Star was
Arriving).
Now they are playin hunter and prey game. But they are still tryin
to discover in which side they are playin.

----------------------
Wilson Reis
mazoreis@***.com.br
UIN: 1686272

http://www.iis.com.br/~mazoreis
Message no. 27
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:11:58 -0700
Wilson Reis de Souza Neto wrote:
/
/ Just a question....
/
/ Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??

As others have said, it's debateble and best left up to the GM.

/ I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
/ The point is:
/ The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
/ he regenerate the Drain??????????

Here's something cruel. The Wendigo can definitely regenerate the
Drain if it's Physical (i.e., the Wendigo casts a spell with a Force
higher than it's Magic rating). <EGMG>

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 28
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:44 -0500
David Buehrer writes:
> Wilson Reis de Souza Neto wrote:
> /
> / Just a question....
> /
> / Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??
>
> As others have said, it's debateble and best left up to the GM.
>
> / I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
> / The point is:
> / The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
> / he regenerate the Drain??????????
>
> Here's something cruel. The Wendigo can definitely regenerate the
> Drain if it's Physical (i.e., the Wendigo casts a spell with a Force
> higher than it's Magic rating). <EGMG>
>
Evil! Hmm...since that could also apply to shapeshifters and
vampires. Oh that is truely truely an evil idea.
Just make sure to get at least a couple of successes and you
could HellBlast all day long.

Hmm...Hey Tinner have you tried this one on Bull yet?

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The nice thing about standards,is there are so many to choose from.
Message no. 29
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:23:53 EST
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:34 +0000 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>> Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??
>>
>> I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
>> The point is:
>> The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
>> he regenerate the Drain??????????
>
>Tom Dowd said yes at one point in time. I'd go with that.

The one game where our group was composed of two vampires and a
shape-shifter, and all were magically active (it was a fun one or two
sessions...:) ) we had decided that they did NOT regenerated drain just
so that it wasn't a complete power trip. But if it's an NPC.. <EGM grin>
go right ahead! </EGM grin>. Besides, it'll make the wendigo that much
scarier.

~Tim
Message no. 30
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:18:22 -0500
In a message dated 97-11-12 07:37:23 EST, wilson@*****.CETUC.PUC-RIO.BR
writes:

> Just a question....

Sure, that's what they -ALL- say... [)

> Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??

Huh?????

> I'm Gming a run and my players are doin' some Wendy Hunting.
> The point is:
> The Wendigo they are hunting does have spellcasting abilities. Does
> he regenerate the Drain??????????

If the spell generates -physical damage-, then theoretically, yes it works
(this is just one part of the reason we redid regeneration rules here).
Otherwise, it does -nothing- for drain...

-K
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Stun damage; healing Stun
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:31:45 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 0:18/13 Nov 97...

> > Does the Regeneration ability heal all Stun Damage in one round??
>
> Huh?????

It's not that difficult a question, is it?

> If the spell generates -physical damage-, then theoretically, yes it works
> (this is just one part of the reason we redid regeneration rules here).
> Otherwise, it does -nothing- for drain...

The text for the Regeneration power is very vague -- it just refers to
"damage" without mentioning if this is Physical or Stun. The only
exception is for checking whether the creature dies from taking a Deadly
wound, which only happens for Physical damage. Whether it applies to Stun
damage or not is something for each GM or group to decide on, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
So what if we're making a scene now?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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