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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:37:58 -0400
At 03:04 PM 9/25/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote these timeless words:

>Thats ok, i'll take it nicely and explain why i like stun spells
>
And I'll take this oppurtunity to explain why I LOATH the stune spells...:]

[SNIP explanations and Stun Cannon]

Now, don;t take this personally... This is just a rant pertaining to what
I see as a general imbalance that cropped up about 6 months ago when a
couple of my players started abusing these spells...

Ok, can someone PLEASE tell me why there is such a serious imbalance
between the stun spells and the physical damage spells? I mean, the
difference between the two is staggeringly patehtic...

Sleep: At Force 6 has 2S drain. Base Damage: 6M

Powerball: Force 6, 4S drain, Base Dam: 6M

Fireball: Force 6, 6D drain, Base Dam: 6S

That's some pretty overwhelming differences, especially between the
Fireball and the Sleep spell...

Ok, pros and cons...

Sleep is easier to cast in the first place, under normal circumstances. In
general, you will always have a much lower TN for willpwoer than you will
for Body. On average, against a moderate threat Guard, you'llneed TN's of
6-8 with the Fireball, and TN's of 3-4 with Sleep. And if you're fighting
another runner, or heaven forbid, Orks or Trolls (WHich I can imagine MOST
of the Sec Guards and the like being Trogs), Body shoots right up, giving
TN's of 8-10 minimum.

Sleep Drain is MUCH easier. Even at a high Force, like Force 6, it's still
a TN of 2!

Plus, Sleep has the added benefit of NOT causing physical damage, so that
you can still interrogate them afterward, or conversly, cut their throats
if you want with no one to stop you. Either way, they're down, out of the
fight, and out of your way. And in our games, it's MUCH safer NOT to kill.
So that's a HUGE benefit over Powerball or Fireball.

Powerball: Can kill, has a drain TN of 2 higher at the same Force 6. And
will usually have a Higher TN to effect it's target.

Fireball: Can Kill, Has elemental Effect of Fire (WhoopyDoo), has the same
casting TN problems as Powerball, does one damage code extra (S vs. M, once
again, WhoopyFraggingDoo), and has a MUCH more serious drain code. 2S vs.
6D is a HUGE difference.

Now, with these rules, would ANYONE take a Physical Spell over a Stun
Spell, unless they really wanted to effect something like a Motorcycle or a
Street Sign (A Physical Object)?

I guess the whole imblance when I let someone play a Physical Shaman, and
he took 5 points of PA powers and 1 Magic Rating point for spells, then
proceed to abuse his spell choices and despite slinging almost a dozen
spells per game, not take a point of crain, thanks to Stun Cloud/Sleep.
The only way I ever got to slow this spell down was by putting the players
in confined spaces, so that when the spell went off, it took out the PC
team's two heavy Hitters cause they were inside the area of effect...

I guess I see Sleep as the PAC of the Magic World. It's overpowered,
underdrained, and can be hideously abused by anyone with number crunching
abilities. I've already made it a house rule that the STun Spells' Drain
Codes are equal to the equivelant Power spell (i.e., Stun Cloud=Power ball,
Stun Bolt=Power Bolt, etc.), and am even considering upping that to the
status of the Fire spells...

<shrug>

ok, rant over... We now return you to your regularly scheduled Mailing
list Posts...

Bull

--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

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"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:22:52 -0500
<snip: Stun spells are overpowered>
Off the top of my head, how about a house rule
that the TN for sleep was will + 1/2 bod? Might
still be easier to sleep that troll than bolt him, but
not so dramatically.

Another posibility would be a "very common"
peice of cyberware, the narcostimulator (TM)
that wakes you up when it detects you falling
asleep durring work hours (you can turn it off, of
course). Great for truckers and security guards,
gives 4 boxes of mental damage overflow, you
are still +3 TN for the damage, but remain
conscious, 0.10 essence, 1200 nuyen. They
won't hit the broadside of a barn, but they'll be
able to hit that alarm button!

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:23:10 EST
> Now, with these rules, would ANYONE take a Physical Spell over a
> Stun Spell, unless they really wanted to effect something like a
> Motorcycle or a Street Sign (A Physical Object)?

I may be incorrect, but aren't Stun spells useless on the astral?
Or at least against astral barriers? I play a slightly pacifistic
shaman who has no non-stun combat spells (he also doesn't focus on
combat, so I have A LOT of drain from casting multiple Shape
Earth's), and he tends to get in trouble when fighting astral
barriers.
Message no. 4
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:51:43 GMT
Bull writes

> At 03:04 PM 9/25/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote these timeless words:
>
> >Thats ok, i'll take it nicely and explain why i like stun spells
> >
> And I'll take this oppurtunity to explain why I LOATH the stune spells...:]
>
> Ok, can someone PLEASE tell me why there is such a serious imbalance
> between the stun spells and the physical damage spells? I mean, the
> difference between the two is staggeringly patehtic...
>
> Sleep: At Force 6 has 2S drain. Base Damage: 6M
>
> Powerball: Force 6, 4S drain, Base Dam: 6M
>
physical damage, lose -1, physical spell +1
Yeah, i commented in the SR3 magic thread that the -1 for stun
probably ough to go in 3rd edition. The power spell though has the
advantage of being usable on the bad guys car (tinted windows making
sleep useless), my favourite car destroyer is a 2+2+2 power bolt,
does the job a treat.

> Fireball: Force 6, 6D drain, Base Dam: 6S
>
> That's some pretty overwhelming differences, especially between the
> Fireball and the Sleep spell...
>
Yeah, mostly beacuse fire elemental effect on combat spells is a
waste, generally by the time thier ammo pops they are so dead its
more danger to the caster than target.

> Plus, Sleep has the added benefit of NOT causing physical damage, so that
> you can still interrogate them afterward, or conversly, cut their throats
Why i think in SR3 FASA should consider losing the -1 TN for stun,
you really do get the best of all worlds with a stun spell, that said
though a Yamaha pulsar is even more effective still!! oh 10S 1/2
impact plus sinewave shock and TN 2 (smartgun to hit) and shielding
doesn't effect the TN's! Then theres the net gun :), soak, um i'm not
hurting you, what soak! got no combat pool oh thts a pity no defense
then.

Mark
Message no. 5
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:06:35 -0500
You wrote:
> Now, don;t take this personally... This is just a rant pertaining to what
> I see as a general imbalance that cropped up about 6 months ago when a
> couple of my players started abusing these spells...

> Ok, can someone PLEASE tell me why there is such a serious imbalance
> between the stun spells and the physical damage spells? I mean, the
> difference between the two is staggeringly patehtic...

> Sleep: At Force 6 has 2S drain. Base Damage: 6M

> Powerball: Force 6, 4S drain, Base Dam: 6M

> Fireball: Force 6, 6D drain, Base Dam: 6S

> That's some pretty overwhelming differences, especially between the
> Fireball and the Sleep spell...

Non-game-balance design considerations. Powerball is a physical spell which
permanently damages all objects within its area of effect, rather than just
pumping energy through the auras of the living things there. This generally
would cost a lot more energy, not to mention that inanimate objects are harder
to affect with magic in SR. It is a resultof how they explain magic and how it
works. As for Fireball, same thing except that you're also creating flames and
setting things on fire... look at the drain for Ignite, compare that to how
effective it is, not very, huh? High drain just to ignite something, hm?
Also, Fireball's tendency to set off ammunition, gas tanks, and other explosive
things in its area of effect is in some ways worth the higher drain. It makes
people more cautious about carrying ordnance.

And one reason why I don't care to use stun spells often myself: their damage
goes on a completely different track than that of my comrades' guns. It makes
it harder to take folks down when your damage isn't cumulative.

losthalo, who thinks the GM in your case oughta just introduce some drugs that
combat stun spells' effects to catch those mages off-guard... or just some
guards with decet Willpower scores :)
Message no. 6
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:28:33 -0600
Quoth Wendy Wanders, Subject 117:
>
> And one reason why I don't care to use stun spells often myself: their damage
> goes on a completely different track than that of my comrades' guns. It makes
> it harder to take folks down when your damage isn't cumulative.

This isn't 100% true. Yes, the effects go on two seperate tracks, but
the penalties from both tracks are cumulative. If you inflict both a
light wound and a moderate stun to a foe then they are looking at a +3
modifier. This of course gets uglier the higher you go, up to a +6 for
a serious wound and stun. This winds up making the wounded guy look and
act stupidly (cuz he isn't making his rolls) and consequently somewhat
easier to take down (if that's the goal).

If you want to use more stun spells, convince your gun-toters to try
using stun-causing weapons like narcojets or squirtguns. Impact armor is
almost always lower than ballistic anyway. Mmmmm... Gammascapolomine/DMSO
rounds in a smart/custom narcojet pistol... 10S stun with nice side
effects.

--
Mike Loseke | On the first day,
mike@*******.com | Pink Floyd created God...
Message no. 7
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:34:15 -0500
You wrote:
> This isn't 100% true. Yes, the effects go on two seperate tracks, but
> the penalties from both tracks are cumulative. If you inflict both a
> light wound and a moderate stun to a foe then they are looking at a +3
> modifier. This of course gets uglier the higher you go, up to a +6 for
> a serious wound and stun. This winds up making the wounded guy look and
> act stupidly (cuz he isn't making his rolls) and consequently somewhat
> easier to take down (if that's the goal).
Yeah, but I generally want them down, not high target numbers, not 'he can't
really do anything', down. A seriously stunned and wounded guy can still hit a
PanicButton(TM), activate something, call in that he's been taken out, et
cetera. That's more what I'm talking about. Besides, with a smartlink, even
serious wounds don't stop someone from being effective. :)

> If you want to use more stun spells, convince your gun-toters to try
> using stun-causing weapons like narcojets or squirtguns. Impact armor is
> almost always lower than ballistic anyway. Mmmmm... Gammascapolomine/DMSO
> rounds in a smart/custom narcojet pistol... 10S stun with nice side
> effects.
But... I don't *want* to use more stun spells, frankly. This was just another
reason. Usually if one of my characters points a combat spell ro gun at
someone, they want them dead. They're witnesses, or they're old enemies, or
they backed me in a corner and made me fight (Vermin, Rat totem, got backed
into a lot of corners...).

Though I like the Squirt(TM). It's a neat, versatile weapon. I just don't
tend to make characters that would use one.

losthalo
Message no. 8
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Stun Rant (was Re: Favorite spells)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:58:00 GMT
on 25.09.97 chaos@*****.COM wrote:
c> At 03:04 PM 9/25/97 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote these timeless words:
c>
c> >Thats ok, i'll take it nicely and explain why i like stun spells
c> >
c> And I'll take this oppurtunity to explain why I LOATH the stune spells...:]
c>
c> [SNIP explanations and Stun Cannon]

c> Sleep: At Force 6 has 2S drain. Base Damage: 6M
c>
c> Powerball: Force 6, 4S drain, Base Dam: 6M
c>
c> Fireball: Force 6, 6D drain, Base Dam: 6S
c>

[snipping Bull's rant on stun-spells]

Stun spells are easier to cast as they are mana-based and no as powerful
(from the required energy, not from the effect) as physical damage
inflicting spells. That's the logical part behind it and I guess you were
aware of that.
The way I figure it, your problem is not the spells, but the players. If a
player come to me and said "Mr. GM, sir? I'd like to play a combat mage"
and I'd see that he took the low-drain stun spells I'd say "See, kid, if
you want a combat mage, he's got to have killer-spells. Stun spells are
for the pacifistic mages like magical streetdoc and old, wise shamans.
Now, erase that stun-bolt and write flamethrower down. Stun-cloud? If you
want to be a killer, you have to make your work look like a hit. Now
replace that cloud with firebomb."
Now, that player's smart and he says "Well, I want to be a subtle killer.
Can I have my stun spell's back?" My response? "Nope. Take mana-bolt and
mana-could. Oh, you don't have imp. invis.? Silence? Catfall or gecko
crawl?...."
Just don't let them take these spells. OTOH, I've got a mage-streetdoc in
work and I don't think he'll take fireball...




Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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