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Message no. 1
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 14:43:53 -0400
> I know, lots of questions, but here's one that I REALLY need
> answered(the other I can just roll a 10 or 20 sided dice for the Rating<evil
> grin>) According to Virtual Realities(I know, it's out of print) a
> character can create his own programs with up to his Computer Theory(or
> related specialization) as the rating. The only catch is that the character
> must have a PC with a high enough memory to make it, and an oven to cook the
> chips in for persona. Now here's the problem: When creating a character,
> time is not a factor! That means a person can create persona chips of 8 and
> ANY program with a rating of 8 before beginning! Even higher if that person
> purchased a Skillsoft Specialization with a rating 10(the highest, right?)
> Now I tried this out and all I had to do to make a kick-butt decker was put
> resources as priority A and Attributes B or C(interchangable with Skills)!
> The only minor solution I could think of was that 1) the person rolls 1d6
> and that's the number of programs he "automatically" gets. That still
> leaves me to deal with someone with an MPCP of 12 and rating 10 on
> everything but Sensors(a 6)?! Add maximum Response, Active Memory(to load
> that Attack program and Sleaze program), and a reality filter, and a
> perfectly legal killer decker is born! Is Virtual Realities just too much
> for characters to be allowed to use when creating characters? What do you
> guys suggest?


I'm just starting on GM'ing a campaign, and I've been having _exactly_ this
problem with one of my players. I told him he could use the Virtual
Realities stuff without realizing what problems it would entail.. He took
Resources A, Programming Skill 6, and went to town. He grabbed every
program in the book at Rating 6 before I stopped him.

Finally, I settled on this rule.. Make a Skill Test for every program you
want to make, with at least 3 successes required (because the character
doesn't have _forever_ to write this stuff..) If you don't get 3 successes
at Rating 6, roll the same test again for Rating 5. And so on down the
line. That, plus the Skill Test required for burning the chips, dropped the
rating for most programs down to a Rating of about 3-4. Of course, the
drawback is he still decided to write every program in the book..

I decided that, next time, I'm going to cut back on the strange rules, and
just declare that the character has one year to create the deck and its
software. Anything the character can do in that year, cool. Anything
he/she can't, well, there's always off-the-shelf...

Anyone with better solutions, I'd like to know as well.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Invisible Pink Unicorns
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Engage in random acts of happiness
Please don't blame anyone else. | and senseless beauty."
Message no. 2
From: robert frazine <shade@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:10:49 -0400
I think you got a handle on it by setting a time limit...also remember that
for starting characters that the maximum starting rating in a general
skill or equipment is 6. so technically he can't have any programs above
6. I usually allow the mpcp to be their max, since it sucks to have a
deck at the start and know that you could build a better one...
Message no. 3
From: cocheese <ZKLJ1@****.EAST-TENN-ST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:00:53 EDT
Several years ago my gm and others tried to limit my access as a decker to
things I believe I had a right to acquire and use. The general rule was
that I could not use a MPCP, persona and utility programs with ratings
higher than my decking skill (the specialized one coming fromthe computer
general skill). They also tried to control the no. of programs I could
use at one time with no thoughts of active memory space or program size,
etc.
I was basically limited to 6s in everything. I disagreed with it and use
an example of another skill to make my point. The skill car allows you
to drive cars, right? After a car skill of 4 or whatever you should be
able to drive cars ranging from a Jack-Rabbit to a Porsche to a racing car
to whatever. What's the difference? The cars, that's all. You're using the
the same skills, eyes, experience, etc. the ONLY difference being the hardware
and equipment.
I feel the same applies to decking. A drek-hot decker can deck like hell on
an excalibur or radio-shack or homemade or whatever. A novice decker can do
the same thing with the same equipment. He's using the same skill, experience
whatever to deck, regardless of the hardware he's using. Sure, he won't do
a good a job as a pro decker but he has the know how and he knows how to use
the stuff.
Let the decker use whatever he can get his hands on and let him fly.


I do think that there are some reason to limit a person in his decking, say
for instance that a geek with a computer skill of 3 tried to use a program
with a rating of 12. I see a problem with that and the only real solution I
can provide is to not allow a decker to use a utility program greater than
his skill times 1.5. It is very rational in that your max. MPCP is your
decking skill times 1.5, so why not your utility program. Your persona
programs are only limited by your MPCP (and indirectly to you) so when youu
have a program directly related to your skill as a decker, why not?

On a side note, since a pc can not enter the game with anything greater than
a 6, I had my decker finish "building" it up to his first year of gaming (which
didn't last very long, everyone realized the stupidity of not allowing their
decker to have a cyber-deck, which brings up another point, how in the hell
can you honestly expect a half-decent decker to have a cyberdeck with all
ratings in 6s and do his job or how do you expect him to bring with him a
decent deck without violating the "no equipment ratings over 6" rule?.


Enough rambling, ideas?


CoCheese
Message no. 4
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:05:29 -0400
> I feel the same applies to decking. A drek-hot decker can deck like hell on
> an excalibur or radio-shack or homemade or whatever. A novice decker can do
> the same thing with the same equipment. He's using the same skill, experience
> whatever to deck, regardless of the hardware he's using. Sure, he won't do
> a good a job as a pro decker but he has the know how and he knows how to use
> the stuff.
> Let the decker use whatever he can get his hands on and let him fly.

You're missing the point. The point is, if you don't limit resources or
development in some way, a starting decker can enter the game with a
maxed-out cyberdeck and every program in the book at Rating 6 with minimal
cash, just by making the assumption that he/she spent umpteen years building
it before the game started.

This is imbalanced. It's like allowing a starting mage to know every spell
in SR and the Grimoire at Force 6 because "he spent a lot of time studying."
There are limits on every other aspect of character generation -- what are
the limits on a decker's starting hardware and software? If they can build
their own stuff, there needs to be a better limit than money.


(Oh, and the drek-hot decker I mentioned before.. Got humbled during my
first gaming session by simple bad luck, when her Rating 6 Sleaze and all
17 Hacking Pool dice failed _three_times_ to get her past simple Access IC.
>8-> I figure pretty soon she'll just blow herself up, since she made such
a vehement issue about her cyberdeck's motion-sensitive security system,
and then I can let the player make a more balanced character.)


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "To really ask is to open the door
My opinions are my opinions. | to the whirlwind."
Please don't blame anyone else. | -- Anne Rice, _The Vampire Lestat_
Message no. 5
From: Menard Steve <menars@***.UMONTREAL.CA>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:12:22 -0400
On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, cocheese wrote:

On this thread I have one question to ask : What does starting money
represent? If its the amount of money you're mabe before becoming a
character, it does not make sense. Why not see it as the VALUE od what a
character has at creation. What that means is, even if you're decker has
written his programs HIMSELF, he still pays for it a creation because it
has a value, represented by its cost. The same goes for a deck : I say
let him "buy" a deck from the existing list, and the just say he built it
himself. A heck of a lot simpler, and a fraggin' hell more balanced.
Because if you allow a decker to built his own deck(at the reduced price
presented in Virtual Realities), the why does someone who has electronics
has to buy many of his goodies? He can well say he built them himself and
want a discount. Why would a mage PAY for a foci, when (if he has the
skills) he could build one himself? Do you guys see what I mean? So my
solution is this :
Tell him to buy a basic deck(removing the name and saying he built it
himself), then if he wants to upgrade it, maybe. For the programs, same
thing. Let him buy them normaly, let him also buy the stuff needed to
make them, THEN say he made them himself.

What do you all think about that?


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
--- \ / decker witha horn ?" --- Scy, Troll decker with a CC ---
--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:15:00 -0700
>
>I think you got a handle on it by setting a time limit...also
remember that
>for starting characters that the maximum starting rating in a general
>skill or equipment is 6. so technically he can't have any
programs above
>6. I usually allow the mpcp to be their max, since it sucks to have a
>deck at the start and know that you could build a better one...

Why not use the force points as the number for the utilities
allowed to create.

i.e. 1,000,000 nYn / 50 force = 50 pts to use to make utilities.
*with rating no
higher than 6*
400,000 nYn / 35 = 35 pts to spend on utilities
if you want more you have to buy them.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 7
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:40:33 -0400
> Why not use the force points as the number for the utilities
> allowed to create.
>
> i.e. 1,000,000 nYn / 50 force = 50 pts to use to make utilities.
> *with rating no
> higher than 6*

Nifty idea.. I'll have to look at the numbers to see if it works. (They've
got a number of persona programs & such that are _required_, so with low
resources this could get nasty..)

Between that and the buy-off-the-shelf, I think a starting decker balance
might just work out properly.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "To really ask is to open the door
My opinions are my opinions. | to the whirlwind."
Please don't blame anyone else. | -- Anne Rice, _The Vampire Lestat_
Message no. 8
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:53:00 PDT
<<<Deck limits, and stuff>>>

>You're missing the point. The point is, if you don't limit resources or
>development in some way, a starting decker can enter the game with a
>maxed-out cyberdeck and every program in the book at Rating 6 with minimal
>cash, just by making the assumption that he/she spent umpteen years
building
>it before the game started.
Hmm, I thought 1 million nuyen was a good limit, especially since the cost
of creating anything
like a fairlight excaliabur was over one mill. I could be wrong, but the
costs of creating these
monster decks are over one million, even if you do it at home. Even if the
decker did create this
monster deck, he more than likely doesn't have enough cash to by the other
necessities.

>This is imbalanced. It's like allowing a starting mage to know every spell
>in SR and the Grimoire at Force 6 because "he spent a lot of time
studying."
>There are limits on every other aspect of character generation -- what are
>the limits on a decker's starting hardware and software? If they can build
>their own stuff, there needs to be a better limit than money.

My gm allowed me to build my decks (at cost) but buy my programs (when
creating a character).
I found that trying to create super decks and getting monster programs you
do not have enough cash.

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner by night
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com
cycon@*******.net
Message no. 9
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 14:34:38 -0700
>>Gary writes:
>> Why not use the force points as the number for the utilities
>> allowed to create.
>>
>> i.e. 1,000,000 nYn / 50 force = 50 pts to use to make utilities.
>> *with rating no
>> higher
than 6*
>Stephen F. Eley replied
>Nifty idea.. I'll have to look at the numbers to see if it works.
(They've
>got a number of persona programs & such that are _required_, so with low
>resources this could get nasty..)
>
>Between that and the buy-off-the-shelf, I think a starting decker
balance
>might just work out properly.

It only makes sense that if you only have enough money to barely buy a
deck that it wouldn't be powerful enough to make very good utilities.
*you could always use starting money to buy more programs also.*

Besides it goes with the same Idea as evening out in comparison to the
mage/shaman/adept.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 10
From: Ian Smith <KildTheCat@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 18:11:59 -0400
> I know, lots of questions, but here's one that I REALLY need
> answered(the other I can just roll a 10 or 20 sided dice for the
Rating<evil
> grin>) According to Virtual Realities(I know, it's out of print) a
> character can create his own programs with up to his Computer Theory(or
> related specialization) as the rating. The only catch is that the
character
> must have a PC with a high enough memory to make it, and an oven to cook
the
> chips in for persona. Now here's the problem: When creating a character,
> time is not a factor! That means a person can create persona chips of 8
and
> ANY program with a rating of 8 before beginning! Even higher if that
person
> purchased a Skillsoft Specialization with a rating 10(the highest, right?)
> Now I tried this out and all I had to do to make a kick-butt decker was put
> resources as priority A and Attributes B or C(interchangable with Skills)!
> The only minor solution I could think of was that 1) the person rolls 1d6
> and that's the number of programs he "automatically" gets. That still
> leaves me to deal with someone with an MPCP of 12 and rating 10 on
> everything but Sensors(a 6)?! Add maximum Response, Active Memory(to load
> that Attack program and Sleaze program), and a reality filter, and a
> perfectly legal killer decker is born! Is Virtual Realities just too much
> for characters to be allowed to use when creating characters? What do you
> guys suggest?

I've only skimmed VR, but I was under the assuption in general that
characters don't get to start out having built things. If it were possible
to start with items you built and didn't pay for, why not just start a
character with Firearms B/R and declare he built all his ordnance himself?
Message no. 11
From: Samuel Jones <sjones1@***.UNICOMP.NET>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 21:25:30 CDT
>I think you got a handle on it by setting a time limit...also remember that
>for starting characters that the maximum starting rating in a general
>skill or equipment is 6. so technically he can't have any programs above
>6. I usually allow the mpcp to be their max, since it sucks to have a
>deck at the start and know that you could build a better one...
>
However, you can have up to an 8 on specialization(6 assigned + 2 for
Specialization)
Message no. 12
From: Samuel Jones <sjones1@***.UNICOMP.NET>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 21:29:11 CDT
>On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, cocheese wrote:
>
> On this thread I have one question to ask : What does starting money
>represent? If its the amount of money you're mabe before becoming a
>character, it does not make sense. Why not see it as the VALUE od what a
>character has at creation. What that means is, even if you're decker has
>written his programs HIMSELF, he still pays for it a creation because it
>has a value, represented by its cost. The same goes for a deck : I say
>let him "buy" a deck from the existing list, and the just say he built it
>himself. A heck of a lot simpler, and a fraggin' hell more balanced.
>Because if you allow a decker to built his own deck(at the reduced price
>presented in Virtual Realities), the why does someone who has electronics
>has to buy many of his goodies? He can well say he built them himself and
>want a discount. Why would a mage PAY for a foci, when (if he has the
>skills) he could build one himself? Do you guys see what I mean? So my
>solution is this :
> Tell him to buy a basic deck(removing the name and saying he built it
>himself), then if he wants to upgrade it, maybe. For the programs, same
>thing. Let him buy them normaly, let him also buy the stuff needed to
>make them, THEN say he made them himself.
>
> What do you all think about that?

The only problem with that is that the prices you see in the sourcebook
don't represent value. They represent street prices, availability, etc...
Virtual Reality priced the Excaliber at a little under 300,000 nuyen, even
though its cost is what, around 2,000,000 nuyen?!
Message no. 13
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 00:10:23 -0500
> > Tell him to buy a basic deck(removing the name and saying he built it
> >himself), then if he wants to upgrade it, maybe. For the programs, same
> >thing. Let him buy them normaly, let him also buy the stuff needed to
> >make them, THEN say he made them himself.
> >
> > What do you all think about that?
>
> The only problem with that is that the prices you see in the sourcebook
> don't represent value. They represent street prices, availability, etc...
> Virtual Reality priced the Excaliber at a little under 300,000 nuyen, even
> though its cost is what, around 2,000,000 nuyen?!
>
Actually, they don't represent street price, either, as that is what street
index is for. I think they represent retail price to legal consumers.
Anyhow, when you get cyber or anything with a hight street index in car gen,
you save a ton of money. I see that as bieng due to time spent, favors done,
and reqire some explanation. The higher price of decks reflects just such a
background. Any decker learning the ropes pays a lot of dues. I'd give a
built deck the retail price, with no additional street index, I guess.
Message no. 14
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 00:13:17 -0500
>
> >I think you got a handle on it by setting a time limit...also remember that
> >for starting characters that the maximum starting rating in a general
> >skill or equipment is 6. so technically he can't have any programs above
> >6. I usually allow the mpcp to be their max, since it sucks to have a
> >deck at the start and know that you could build a better one...
> >
> However, you can have up to an 8 on specialization(6 assigned + 2 for
> Specialization)
>
As I see it, MPCP is not truely a "rating"- it is more like vehicle body, or
damage code. Nowhere have I ever seen it called a level or rating in the same
sense as a program or device has a rating. just a thought.
Message no. 15
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 09:09:36 GMT
> On this thread I have one question to ask : What does starting money
> represent? If its the amount of money you're mabe before becoming a
> character, it does not make sense. Why not see it as the VALUE od what a
> character has at creation.

> Why would a mage PAY for a foci, when (if he has the
> skills) he could build one himself? Do you guys see what I mean? So my
> solution is this :
> Tell him to buy a basic deck(removing the name and saying he built it
> himself), then if he wants to upgrade it, maybe. For the programs, same
> thing. Let him buy them normaly, let him also buy the stuff needed to
> make them, THEN say he made them himself.

Makes perfect sense and it's the way we worked it. Might as well take a
starting PC and put Skills on D and Attributes on E, then say "but he
spends twenty years reading books and learning to shoot while working
out every day, so he gets maxed stats and skills".

Starting resources explicitly do not translate directly to cash, since you
only get 10% of any leftover as cash. Besides, "where you got all this neat
stuff" is a vital part of character generation. Trying to find an interesting
reason for Wired II and serious cyber on a young Elven razorgirl led to
Easy, one of the most frightening characters I ever wrote: on paper and
from her stats she was a vanilla samurai, but by the time I finished that
background she was a homicidal psychotic. It just flowed...

In our campaign we tend to be generous in character creation: with
priorities as numbers (A=4, B=3 etc) we allowed "sum-to-10", slight
overages on skills or (less commonly) tech, whatever, if the character's
background was good enough to earn it. But then the GM can pull all sorts
of skeletons out of that background... Makes it much more fun.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 16
From: cocheese <ZKLJ1@****.EAST-TENN-ST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 14:58:15 EDT
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>You're missing the point. The point is, if you don't limit resources or
>development in some way, a starting decker can enter the game with a
>maxed-out cyberdeck and every program in the book at Rating 6 with minimal
>cash, just by making the assumption that he/she spent umpteen years building
>it before the game started.
>This is imbalanced. It's like allowing a starting mage to know every spell
I disagree. I agree that the decker is VERY powerful in the beginning with a
maxed-out deck but then, the ability to upgrade it and build a better deck
in the long run is VERY HARD, to say the least! Playing several deckers, it is
IMHO, a good DECENT deck will cost at least 6 million Y and several years (even
with the best of B/R rolls, it takes TIME). As a decker, it is almost impossib
le to take that good starting point, re-do it completely and make it much bette
r, as oppossed to mages and sams and whatever who improve relatively easily.
Yes, deckers have a big advantage in the beginning but it is a continual strugg
le uphill for eternity after that.
I'm not even going to talk about constantly replacing utility programs and spen
ding nuyen on other items such as lifestyle, doc wagon contracts, equipment, et
c.

CoCheese
Message no. 17
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 21:17:12 -0500
> I disagree. I agree that the decker is VERY powerful in the beginning with a
> maxed-out deck but then, the ability to upgrade it and build a better deck
> in the long run is VERY HARD, to say the least! Playing several deckers, it is
> IMHO, a good DECENT deck will cost at least 6 million Y and several years (even
> with the best of B/R rolls, it takes TIME). As a decker, it is almost impossib
> le to take that good starting point, re-do it completely and make it much bette
> r, as oppossed to mages and sams and whatever who improve relatively easily.
> Yes, deckers have a big advantage in the beginning but it is a continual strugg
> le uphill for eternity after that.
> I'm not even going to talk about constantly replacing utility programs and spen
> ding nuyen on other items such as lifestyle, doc wagon contracts, equipment, et
> c.
>
> CoCheese
>
What is your idea of a "decent" deck? I've seen deckers do a lot with very
mediocre decks, just good use of programs and stealth. Once you have a good
deck, why improve it? Improve your skills and cyber instead. I don't think
decks a really hard to improve: just demand acces to deck technology as
part of your payoff. Very few sams can actually outright buy cyber in our
campaign. They get it as payment. As for expenses, everyone has those, and
the deckers seem low, except when they have all kinds of tech goodies that
get lost or destroyed. Happens to anyone.
Sebastian
Message no. 18
From: Samuel Jones <sjones1@***.UNICOMP.NET>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 00:48:47 CDT
>----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>>You're missing the point. The point is, if you don't limit resources or
>>development in some way, a starting decker can enter the game with a
>>maxed-out cyberdeck and every program in the book at Rating 6 with minimal
>>cash, just by making the assumption that he/she spent umpteen years building
>>it before the game started.
>>This is imbalanced. It's like allowing a starting mage to know every spell

The only problem with having a maxed-out cyberdeck that I can see as
somewhat balancing is that there's no place to go. MPCP controls most of a
deck. It controls the limits and costs of a deck's components. If I start
with an MPCP of 12(an Excaliber), an upgrade to MPCP not only means
upgrading the MPCP, but also every single component that has the MPCP. This
is worked into VR. Not only that, but a decker MUST keep the source code
for the MPCP to be able to upgrade(same thing with programs) The downtime
on decks being upgraded would be enough for me to think twice about going
beyond what I started with. For instance: To go from MPCP 12 to MPCP 13
would cost around 1-200,000 nuyen! The only advantages would be 3 extra
points to the upper limit on persona programs. Anything beyond that would
cost more nuyen. And that's if your not using the optional Load Rule! Yes,
theoretically a beginning decker could have every program in the book, but
he would have to keep the source code(seperate from the actual program, by
the way) for every program, plus he wouldn't be able to load most of the
programs. He would still have to chose whether to load that rating 10
Attack program and Rating 10 Analyze program(that's about all he could load
even with max Active memory at MPCP 12!) or whether to take the Rating 10
Sleaze and the Rating 10 Deception(I'd have to check whether those two would
fit) Plus he'd have to decide what kind of attack program to load and have
designed. To go for the damage staging at the cost of rating points,
whether to put area-effect or penetration or either, whether to make it
one-shot to decrease the size of the bloody thing! The posts I've gotten on
how many programs to let the person have(I'll probably use Force Points from
now on) means that he can't have them all! Evaluate can go from Rating 10
to Rating 1 in almost no time if market-depreciation is enough(3d6 days for
1 point, decker doesn't know until it's too late, no change in size) At
least a mage can keep his options open until the spell is cast.
Message no. 19
From: Samuel Jones <sjones1@***.UNICOMP.NET>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 00:57:03 CDT
>They get it as payment. As for expenses, everyone has those, and
>the deckers seem low, except when they have all kinds of tech goodies that
>get lost or destroyed. Happens to anyone.
>Sebastian
>
Speaking of losing expensive toys, I can't think of any single unit(other
than an airplane, etc..) that is more expensive and easier to destroy than a
cyberdeck. In the Matrix, the decker might be hot as BTL chips in the
Seattle Slums, but in life, he's usually pretty weak. In a team, his
samurai or merc(or both) are pretty much going to protect him, but they(and
the PC decker) sometimes forget just how important that little
keyboard-sized thing in the case is. Does anyone else find it hard to
believe that even a top-notch case(Level 3) is only basic armor for
something that most deckers would consider more important than another
runner?(From SR2-Follower 0,000 nuyen. Good deck=quite a bit more)
Message no. 20
From: John Lambertson <john_lambertson@****.FWS.GOV>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 07:57:29 MST
On Fri. July 7, S.F Eley posted this problem and response:
>Now here's the problem: When creating a character, time is not a
>factor! That means a person can create persona chips of 8 and ANY
>program with a rating of 8 before beginning!

--Doesn't work that way because the rules limit you to a rating of
--six(6) at the start. If you think higher ratings are a problem,
--start using the rules.

>I'm just starting on GM'ing a campaign, and I've been having
>_exactly_ this problem with one of my players. I told him he could
>use the Virtual Realities stuff without realizing what problems it
>would entail.. He took Resources A, Programming Skill 6, and went to
>town. He grabbed every program in the book at Rating 6 before I
>stopped him.

>Finally, I settled on this rule.. Make a Skill Test for every
>program you want to make, with at least 3 successes required (because
>the character doesn't have _forever_ to write this stuff..) If you
>don't get 3 successes at Rating 6, roll the same test again for
>Rating 5. And so on down the line. That, plus the Skill Test
>required for burning the chips, dropped the rating for most programs
>down to a Rating of about 3-4. Of course, the drawback is he still
>decided to write every program in the book..

>I decided that, next time, I'm going to cut back on the strange
>rules, and just declare that the character has one year to create the
>deck and its software. Anything the character can do in that year,
>cool. Anything he/she can't, well, there's always off-the-shelf...

>Anyone with better solutions, I'd like to know as well.

>Blessings,

>_TNX._

This problem stems from the idea that a starting character has a really
huge bank account that he just has to spend for some odd reason. The idea
behind resources is the stuff a character has accumulated in his life
before starting the game. Resources A means the character has a million
nuyen worth of stuff, not a million nuyen. Programs, cyberdecks, and
anything else a character would have should be purchased with costs listed
in the books, because even if the character wrote them himself, it still
took time. If a character is sitting at home all day putting together
hardware, and coding chips, he isn't making any money, so he shouldn't have
access to all that credit.

This is just the way I look at resources, and it makes sense to me. If you
don't look at it this way, I don't have a problem with it, but it should
solve your problems.

John

john_lambertson@****.fws.gov

My opinions are my own
Message no. 21
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <sneakabout@**********.HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 20:23:26 +0300
On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> I decided that, next time, I'm going to cut back on the strange rules, and
> just declare that the character has one year to create the deck and its
> software. Anything the character can do in that year, cool. Anything
> he/she can't, well, there's always off-the-shelf...

One year is a VERY sane proposition, mainly because it's one year FULL
TIME. Nobody is going to spend 365 consecutive days spending 8 hours a
day on a fraggin deck. He has to go and buy groceries, you know? Your
character might argue "what if it's my lifetime goal? What if I've been
working on it since I dropped out of High School?". The answer is, you
were. The cumulative time you spent over those say 5 years working on
your deck is 1 year. You had a life, you know.

OR, you can try this: (It just came to me and I'm developing it on the
fly, so forgive any inconsistencies)

A Decker with skill 6 in C, CT and C(B/R) is one hot chummer. OK,
learning is a lot, but so is experience. You can't justify those skills
by saying he didn't even have a deck until recently. So you tell him:

- Each year of building time is 3 years of game time.
- YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. Do an average of your skills in C, CT and
C(B/R) and substract two. This is the minimum years you have been decking.
And YOU NEED A DECK to have been decking. So do a small calculation, say,
you start off at skill 2, and at that time you can have any deck BUT YOU
HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. Each year, you need a substantial upgrade, which you
either have to pay for (cash) or build (add MORE time). You can choose to
start from a puny off-the-shelf deck and actually upgrade it, or you can
throw it away (and get 20% back, perhaps).

The rules are rough (I just made them up), but you get the idea. I can't
picture a chummer who's never seen the Matrix 'cause he's been building a
deck for 5 years that has monster skills. It just can't happen.
_________________________ ______________________________
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"Where would you aim if you had the biggest gun in the universe?"
__________________________ -Adm. Tolwyn, Wing Commander ]I[ ________
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~~~~~ ^ ^ ^ Under Construction ^ ^ ^ ~~~~~
Message no. 22
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:31:50 -0500
>
> >They get it as payment. As for expenses, everyone has those, and
> >the deckers seem low, except when they have all kinds of tech goodies that
> >get lost or destroyed. Happens to anyone.
> >Sebastian
> >
> Speaking of losing expensive toys, I can't think of any single unit(other
> than an airplane, etc..) that is more expensive and easier to destroy than a
> cyberdeck. In the Matrix, the decker might be hot as BTL chips in the
> Seattle Slums, but in life, he's usually pretty weak. In a team, his
> samurai or merc(or both) are pretty much going to protect him, but they(and
> the PC decker) sometimes forget just how important that little
> keyboard-sized thing in the case is. Does anyone else find it hard to
> believe that even a top-notch case(Level 3) is only basic armor for
> something that most deckers would consider more important than another
> runner?(From SR2-Follower 0,000 nuyen. Good deck=quite a bit more)
>
Yeah, they don't handle trauma well. Lots of armor would't help- to shock
sensitive. Just stay out of the line of fire, say in a well armored car, and
get a nice, long cable. You can generally deck from your choice of
locations. When you can't, make it obvios that you can not risk the deck.
Message no. 23
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 10:30:27 -0400
On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Sebastian Wiers wrote:

> Yeah, they don't handle trauma well. Lots of armor would't help- to shock
> sensitive. Just stay out of the line of fire, say in a well armored car, and
> get a nice, long cable. You can generally deck from your choice of
> locations. When you can't, make it obvios that you can not risk the deck.

Or go with the cranial deck.

Marc
Message no. 24
From: cocheese <ZKLJ1@****.EAST-TENN-ST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:42:05 EDT
I really don't like the cranial decks just suggested. Here's why:
Have anyone of you ever traveled thru an airport. If you have then you've gone
thru a metal detector. I'm pretty sure that the technology of metal detectors
have been improved, almost certaintly supplemented by chemical, biological and
astral sensors.
A decker going thru the airport "legit" or into hard-to-reach nations like both
Tirs and Britain, will probably be spotted as "cranial deckers" or whatever.
So if they catch it and ask you what it is, what's your response, "it's extra
memory for my corp, really."
I don't think so.
They will spot your cranial deck for what it is and unless you have airtight
proof that it's legit (to have AND transport) then you're in trouble.

Personally, I'd rather have a cyberdeck in my lap which I can easily:
1. Upgrade, work on, etc.
2. Slide under the seat or other hiding place.
3. If I get caught and I don't have the deck on me, what do they know? I could
just be a corp wage slave (no combat related cyberware/bioware). A data-jack
is legit and ORDINARY, cranial decks are not.


My .02 Y......

CoCheese
Message no. 25
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <sneakabout@**********.HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 16:47:10 +0300
On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, cocheese wrote:

> I really don't like the cranial decks just suggested. Here's why:
> Have anyone of you ever traveled thru an airport. If you have then you've gone
> thru a metal detector. I'm pretty sure that the technology of metal detectors
> have been improved, almost certaintly supplemented by chemical, biological and
> astral sensors.

Uhmmm... I'll have to disagree.

The sensors you get in airports are of two types: The X-ray machine you
put your handbags through (and your luggage, though you can't see it),
and the metal detectors you walk through. The X-ray machine may well have
been upgraded to an instant CAT scan, for all I know. But the metal
detector...

Now the metal detectors work based on the principle of eddy currents, you
know, the stuff you learnt in High School electromagnetism. Conductors
moving through a magnetic field get induced current, causing their own
magnetic field and thus producing what looks like eddies in the magnetic
field lines of the original field. The magnitude of these eddy current
disturbances is measured, and if it is above a certain marginal value, you
are inspected further because you are carrying LOTS of metal (or other
conductors).

Now this principle is a simple application of magnetism. It's NOT going to
get any more accurate. What might happen is that very capable ways of
masking these conductors are invented.

Masking something in an X-ray machine, esp. sth as big as a deck, is tough.
Masking the conductivity of the stuff implanted in your cranium, I would
believe, is an added bonus when you install the stuff in the first place.

If anything, I'd say C^2 decks are TOUGHER to detect in airports.
_________________________ ______________________________
_____/ Stephanos J. Piperoglou \_____/ sneakabout@**********.hol.gr \_________
Geek Code v2.1 (finger for info): PGP key available on request
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"Where would you aim if you had the biggest gun in the universe?"
__________________________ -Adm. Tolwyn, Wing Commander ]I[ ________
\ http://parthenon.hol.gr/people/sneakabout/
~~~~~ ^ ^ ^ Under Construction ^ ^ ^ ~~~~~
Message no. 26
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:27:29 -0700
>Uhmmm... I'll have to disagree.

Well, actually you are mistaken.

>been upgraded to an instant CAT scan, for all I know. But the metal
>detector...

You haven't heard of a SQUID? (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device)

>Now this principle is a simple application of magnetism. It's NOT going to
>get any more accurate.

Actually, the SQUID works on the same principle, only using a
superconductor with a chip to detect magnetic fields as weak as 1 billionth
of the earths, or
~ 1E10-9 gauss. A SQUID is easily sensitive enough to read data off of a
diskette, let alone detect any amount of metal. This accuracy is several
orders of magnitude higher than the simple MAD device you are describing.

>_____/ Stephanos J. Piperoglou \_____/ sneakabout@**********.hol.gr \_________
Message no. 27
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <sneakabout@**********.HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 00:20:04 +0300
On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Actually, the SQUID works on the same principle, only using a
> superconductor with a chip to detect magnetic fields as weak as 1 billionth
> of the earths, or
> ~ 1E10-9 gauss. A SQUID is easily sensitive enough to read data off of a
> diskette, let alone detect any amount of metal. This accuracy is several
> orders of magnitude higher than the simple MAD device you are describing.

OK, I can take that, but is this just an extra-sensitive detector of
conductive materials or does it acrually produce an image? If it's the
former, it has no use whatsoever in airports. If it's the latter, you're
right and I'm wrong (which might be the case anyway).
_________________________ ______________________________
_____/ Stephanos J. Piperoglou \_____/ sneakabout@**********.hol.gr \_________
Geek Code v2.1 (finger for info): PGP key available on request
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"Where would you aim if you had the biggest gun in the universe?"
__________________________ -Adm. Tolwyn, Wing Commander ]I[ ________
\ http://parthenon.hol.gr/people/sneakabout/
~~~~~ ^ ^ ^ Under Construction ^ ^ ^ ~~~~~
Message no. 28
From: Samuel Jones <sjones1@***.UNICOMP.NET>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 01:42:09 CDT
>On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, cocheese wrote:
>
>> I really don't like the cranial decks just suggested. Here's why:
>> Have anyone of you ever traveled thru an airport. If you have then
you've gone
>> thru a metal detector. I'm pretty sure that the technology of metal
detectors
>> have been improved, almost certaintly supplemented by chemical,
biological and
>> astral sensors.
>
>Uhmmm... I'll have to disagree.

<X-Ray machine stuff snipped>

>Now the metal detectors work based on the principle of eddy currents, you
>know, the stuff you learnt in High School electromagnetism. Conductors
>moving through a magnetic field get induced current, causing their own
>magnetic field and thus producing what looks like eddies in the magnetic
>field lines of the original field. The magnitude of these eddy current
>disturbances is measured, and if it is above a certain marginal value, you
>are inspected further because you are carrying LOTS of metal (or other
>conductors).

I'd have to disagree here. I've seen metal detectors go off because I had
my keys in my pocket, and there wasn't all that much metal in there(Pentium
chip keyring, 2 keys, 2 keyrings) Incidentally, in the future they could
simply change the principle upon which metal detectors work. I don't know
how, but maybe a mixture of X-Ray technology and metal detectors. Whatever
they use, I would think that they would have SOMETHING to make sure that the
guy with the huge muscles didn't have retractable razors or any surprises
hidden in a fingertip compartment(like a monowhip?) If not, I think my
character is in the wrong business. Forget shadowrunning, let's get into
airplane hijacking and hire out to terrorist causes.....(Sell the passengers
to the highest bidder and then send the plane up and use it for target
practice, or even better, load it down with explosives and set the autopilot
for the Denver International Airport...)
Message no. 29
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 18:13:00 +0930
Samuel Jones wrote:
> Whatever
> they use, I would think that they would have SOMETHING to make sure that the
> guy with the huge muscles didn't have retractable razors or any surprises
> hidden in a fingertip compartment(like a monowhip?)

While an X-ray would easily show up a fingertip compartment, the best they
could hope for with a monowhip is the end weight, and maybe the moorings.
Use a ceramic weight (and mooring, of course), and hope they don't ask you
to "flip your lid"... :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 30
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:26:39 -0400
On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Samuel Jones wrote:

> I'd have to disagree here. I've seen metal detectors go off because I had
> my keys in my pocket, and there wasn't all that much metal in there(Pentium
> chip keyring, 2 keys, 2 keyrings)

I know what you mean. My boots set them off as well. Of course
they're US Army jungle boots, so there's a thin stainless steel plate in
each sole. Pisses the MAD operators off when you take off your shoes
every time you go through a detector.

Marc
Message no. 31
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Superdeckers
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 12:53:32 -0500
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Samuel Jones wrote:
>
> > I'd have to disagree here. I've seen metal detectors go off because I had
> > my keys in my pocket, and there wasn't all that much metal in there(Pentium
> > chip keyring, 2 keys, 2 keyrings)
>
> I know what you mean. My boots set them off as well. Of course
> they're US Army jungle boots, so there's a thin stainless steel plate in
> each sole. Pisses the MAD operators off when you take off your shoes
> every time you go through a detector.
>
> Marc
>
??? I just tell them to get out the wand, even If I get trough without a
beep. But then, I wear metatarsal guaud boots, a 4 pound stud belt, and
jewelry. By the way, stainless steal body piercing jewelry will not set off
airport metal detectors, even in large quantities.
Or do you get stinbky just to piss them off ;) ?

Further Reading

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