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Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:21:19 -0400
>>> Alex Van Der Kleut <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
07/11/96 10:36am >>>

Nobody has pointed this out yet, but I have a problem
with your basic setup. A Yellowjacket with "stock
stats" is basically a small, lightly armed and armored
scout helicopter. It's made out of light weight
materials and would be mainly used for police for city
spotting duty.

A victory rotary assault cannon is a 30mm heavy
weapon that is the equivalent of the main gun on an
A-10 tank killer (an American attack jet). The entire
aircraft was designed around this ~20 foot long
weapon. ASAIK the A-10 is the only aircraft that has
enough power in the engines to be able top
counter-act the force of the gun.

For an actual attack chopper, like the AH-64 Apache, a
20mm chaingun is mounted below the fuselage. A
chaingun is basically a suped up machine gun (what
FASA calls a super-machine gun but with bigger
ammon) that is about the same size as a regular
heavy machine gun. A rotory gun, wether assault
cannon or mini-gun, needs a lot more room to be self
contained.

Alex
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I completly agree with you that it's silly that you can
mount something that's half the length of the body
under the chin of the helicopter. That's one of the
reason's I'm going to start using Carwars rules for
designing the vehicles in the game. I'll deal with
converting cash prices on a case by case basis. Most
of the weapons are identical it's just that Steve
Jackson has gone and done most of the hard math
figuring out how big most things are. It also covers
air, water, and most military vehicles.

Now to jump to another topic sort of related to the
above discussion but not really. Has any one noticed
the trend in FOF and net source weapons to use Light
pistol ammo to achieve the Super Machine gun? My
PCs discovered it and well quite frankly one of them
used it to hose down a spirit that was manifest (it was
only level 6) he managed to get 3 hits on it and well 6
dice weren't enough to stage down the 4D he was
taking. Rather annoying since it was designed to be
tougher than that.
I have however found the counter agent to that which
lays in the vehcile rules. Since Light pistol ammo can
not hurt a car that has armor I decide to extend it to
include Hardened armor. Hence most of the major
villans have some formed of hardened armor and I've
even given the guards level 1 form fitting body armor
that is harded. (Yes I am an Evil GM). I can't wait to
see the look on the street sam's face when the guard
picks himself off the floor and shoots back! :)
Message no. 2
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:10:55 -0600 (MDT)
Jeffrey Riordan wrote:
|
|>>> Alex Van Der Kleut <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
|07/11/96 10:36am >>>
|
|Now to jump to another topic sort of related to the
|above discussion but not really. Has any one noticed
|the trend in FOF and net source weapons to use Light
|pistol ammo to achieve the Super Machine gun? My
|PCs discovered it and well quite frankly one of them
|used it to hose down a spirit that was manifest (it was
|only level 6) he managed to get 3 hits on it and well 6
|dice weren't enough to stage down the 4D he was
|taking. Rather annoying since it was designed to be
|tougher than that.

Um...manifest beings are immune to missile weapons. They
can only be harmed by hand held melee weapons (using
Willpower instead of the Combat Skill) and spells. Check
out the description of the power Manifestation. And, being
the Evil GM that you are, don't tell the players that
you're now using the right rule until they attack another
spirit ;)

Those light ammo machine guns are great against unarmored
targets. But try to take down something wearing armor and
they're counterproductive.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 3
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:49:55 -0400
>>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> 07/11/96
03:10pm >>>

Um...manifest beings are immune to missile weapons.
They can only be harmed by hand held melee
weapons (using
Willpower instead of the Combat Skill) and spells.
Check out the description of the power Manifestation.
And, being the Evil GM that you are, don't tell the
players that you're now using the right rule until they
attack another spirit ;)

Those light ammo machine guns are great against
unarmored targets. But try to take down something
wearing armor and they're counterproductive.

-David
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I kinda assumed that too until a player pointed out
this section of the rules in SRII. Page 142. section
heading MANIFEST FORM
"Additionally, manifest spirits have the power of
immunity against firearm attacks, ranged (exclusing
bows and throwing weapons) weapons, and
explosions. These are, technically, inderect attacks
because they are not "powered" by the attacker and
do not carry the full weight of the attacker's will. In
this circumstance spirits have twice the Force as
armor of the appropriate type (impact or ballistic).
Damage is resolved normally."
I then went and checked the critter section under
powers and low and behold the two actually agreed
about what "immunity to normal weapons".
While it was true that he only had his willpower in
dice to attack with he only need one 4 or better on the
die to hit force the spirit to roll 6 dice against a TN of
15D minus armor rating of 12 means a 3D attack. Well
he blew 2 of them and it was suddenly 4 success's vs
3 and it was a D wound to the manifest form.
I've since decided that something needs to be done
about that and I'm working on a plausable solution.
Message no. 4
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca>
Subject: RE: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:01:00 PDT
> Now to jump to another topic sort of related to the
> above discussion but not really. Has any one noticed
> the trend in FOF and net source weapons to use Light
> pistol ammo to achieve the Super Machine gun? My
> PCs discovered it and well quite frankly one of them
> used it to hose down a spirit that was manifest (it was

Huh? Why would light pistol rounds be more effective against
manifesting spirits?

It should just bounce off of most spirits (of decent force
level) - with armour of twice the force (for attacking with
a ranged weapon), a force 6 spirit can just ignore damage
with unmodified (ie. by burst, etc) power levels of 11 or less.
Anything less than a Franchi with HE ammo isn't going to affect it.

> only level 6) he managed to get 3 hits on it and well 6
> dice weren't enough to stage down the 4D he was
> taking. Rather annoying since it was designed to be
> tougher than that.

Ugh. Terrible roll - 6 dice and no more than 1 being 4+?

James
--
I can't be bothered to think up a generally witty comment right now, so
if you'll just leave your sense of humour at the tone...
Message no. 5
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: RE: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:10:17 -0400
>>> Ojaste,James [NCR]
<ojastej@******.sid.ncr.doe.ca> 07/11/96 07:01pm
>>>

> Now to jump to another topic sort of related to the
> above discussion but not really. Has any one
noticed
> the trend in FOF and net source weapons to use
Light
> pistol ammo to achieve the Super Machine gun? My
> PCs discovered it and well quite frankly one of them
> used it to hose down a spirit that was manifest (it
was

Huh? Why would light pistol rounds be more effective
against manifesting spirits?

It should just bounce off of most spirits (of decent
force level) - with armour of twice the force (for
attacking with a ranged weapon), a force 6 spirit can
just ignore damage with unmodified (ie. by burst, etc)
power levels of 11 or less.
Anything less than a Franchi with HE ammo isn't going
to affect it.

James
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I would love to see the section that says that. I've
never seen a reference to ignoring attacks that are
less powerful than the armor you are wearing. Please
tell me where that is because it would solve several
problems in my campaign. As far as I know only
Barriers are described that way in stopping bullets.
and that only applies to something with less power
than the original barrier rating of the Barrier.
Message no. 6
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:06:13 -0600 (MDT)
Jeffrey Riordan wrote:
|
|>>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> 07/11/96
|03:10pm >>>
|
|Um...manifest beings are immune to missile weapons.
|They can only be harmed by hand held melee
|weapons (using
|Willpower instead of the Combat Skill) and spells.
|Check out the description of the power Manifestation.
|And, being the Evil GM that you are, don't tell the
|players that you're now using the right rule until they
|attack another spirit ;)
|
|Those light ammo machine guns are great against
|unarmored targets. But try to take down something
|wearing armor and they're counterproductive.
|
|-David
|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
|
| I kinda assumed that too until a player pointed out
|this section of the rules in SRII. Page 142. section
|heading MANIFEST FORM
| "Additionally, manifest spirits have the power of
|immunity against firearm attacks, ranged (exclusing
|bows and throwing weapons) weapons, and
|explosions. These are, technically, inderect attacks
|because they are not "powered" by the attacker and
|do not carry the full weight of the attacker's will. In
|this circumstance spirits have twice the Force as
|armor of the appropriate type (impact or ballistic).
|Damage is resolved normally."

Ah, I now know where the confusion is occuring. I read it
as meaning that manifest beings' armor is the same as
vehicle armor, which confers "immunity" to everything but
the big guns. That's the way that I run it in my game and
it works out pretty well. Elementals and spirits put the
fear of god in my players.

Also, I go by the power descriptions in the European
Paranormal Critters book (can't remember the name of the
title right now). I think that that description influenced
the decision I made.

I could be wrong though...

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 7
From: briann@*******.com
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:24:31 +0000
> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:49:55 -0400
> From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
> Reply-to: shadowrn@********.itribe.net

Jeffrey Riordan wrote:

> >>> David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> 07/11/96
> 03:10pm >>>
>
> Um...manifest beings are immune to missile weapons.
> They can only be harmed by hand held melee
> weapons (using
> Willpower instead of the Combat Skill) and spells.
> Check out the description of the power Manifestation.
> And, being the Evil GM that you are, don't tell the
> players that you're now using the right rule until they
> attack another spirit ;)
>
> Those light ammo machine guns are great against
> unarmored targets. But try to take down something
> wearing armor and they're counterproductive.
>
> -David
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> I kinda assumed that too until a player pointed out
> this section of the rules in SRII. Page 142. section
> heading MANIFEST FORM
> "Additionally, manifest spirits have the power of
> immunity against firearm attacks, ranged (exclusing
> bows and throwing weapons) weapons, and
> explosions. These are, technically, inderect attacks
> because they are not "powered" by the attacker and
> do not carry the full weight of the attacker's will. In
> this circumstance spirits have twice the Force as
> armor of the appropriate type (impact or ballistic).
> Damage is resolved normally."
> I then went and checked the critter section under
> powers and low and behold the two actually agreed
> about what "immunity to normal weapons".
> While it was true that he only had his willpower in
> dice to attack with he only need one 4 or better on the
> die to hit force the spirit to roll 6 dice against a TN of
> 15D minus armor rating of 12 means a 3D attack. Well
> he blew 2 of them and it was suddenly 4 success's vs
> 3 and it was a D wound to the manifest form.
> I've since decided that something needs to be done
> about that and I'm working on a plausible solution.
>
>
>
Check out Paranormal Animals of Europe. It's rules on powers and how
they works supersede the rules in the Second Edition main book. Pg
134 of Paranormal Animals of Europe contains rules on Manifistation.
Also in Paranormal Animals of Europe you need to read page 133.

Anyway the Manifistation power in PAoE refers you to the Immunity to
Normal Weapons power. Under the Immunity to normal Weapons Power it
states.

"A creature with the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons uses an
additional Armor Rating equal to twice it's Essence Rating to resist
damage from ordinary melee or ranged weapons. This power does has no
effect against elemental-effects damage (fire, vacuum, corrosive
acid, water cannon, and so on), the number of automatic successes
equals the creatures essence rating."

This basically means your force 6 elemental facing 3D damage already
has 6 successes to stage down damage, plus whatever he rolls to stage
damage down even more. 6+ successes equals at best Light Wound.

thank you for paying attention. ;-)

You might want to read both rules fully, because the Immunity to
normal weapons granted to a manifesting spirit is limited to ranged
attacks only.


Brian K. Nielsen
e-mail: briann@*******.com
Message no. 8
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:48:20 +0100
briann@*******.com said on 14:24/11 Jul 96...

> "A creature with the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons uses an
> additional Armor Rating equal to twice it's Essence Rating to resist
> damage from ordinary melee or ranged weapons. This power does has no
> effect against elemental-effects damage (fire, vacuum, corrosive
> acid, water cannon, and so on), the number of automatic successes
> equals the creatures essence rating."
>
> This basically means your force 6 elemental facing 3D damage already
> has 6 successes to stage down damage, plus whatever he rolls to stage
> damage down even more. 6+ successes equals at best Light Wound.
>
> thank you for paying attention. ;-)

But if I were you I'd change that to read "the armor rating equals the
creature's Essence rating." because this is obviously an SR1 rule that
somebody forgot to change. In SR1 you used to get automatic successes,
making light pistols and hold-outs even more useless than they are now,
while in SRII this got replaced by subtracting the armor rating from the
Power Level of the attack.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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Message no. 9
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: RE: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:48:20 +0100
Ojaste,James [NCR] said on 16:01/11 Jul 96...

> Huh? Why would light pistol rounds be more effective against
> manifesting spirits?
>
> It should just bounce off of most spirits (of decent force
> level) - with armour of twice the force (for attacking with
> a ranged weapon), a force 6 spirit can just ignore damage
> with unmodified (ie. by burst, etc) power levels of 11 or less.
> Anything less than a Franchi with HE ammo isn't going to affect it.

Not quite right: even if you end up with a negative Power Level, the
spirit still has to roll to resist it, namely against a TN of 2. I give an
extra die for every 2 points the actual TN is below 0, but this is a
house rule.

> Ugh. Terrible roll - 6 dice and no more than 1 being 4+?

One PC here once fired a Vindicator minigun with gas vent and high
Strength from a gyromount, for a total recoil of +2 or so. That set the
final TN at 4, and he managed to roll only 1s, 2, and 3s on all his 12
dice (skill + Combat Pool)...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 10
From: Droopy <droopy@**.net>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:24:15 -0400
At 02:21 PM 7/11/96 -0400, Jeffrey Riordan wrote:

> I completly agree with you that it's silly that you can
>mount something that's half the length of the body
>under the chin of the helicopter. That's one of the

Can you? I didn't think the yellowjacket could handle a weapon that
big....ah ha! It can't! You can equip the yellowjacket with either a micro
turrent or twin firmpoints, neither one of which will mount a heavy weapon.
Not that I'd want to mount a big gun on a bird that a troll can drop by
spitting lugies at it. <BG>


--Droopy
Message no. 11
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:13:49 -0400
>>> Droopy <droopy@**.net> 07/12/96 08:24pm >>>

(Snip)

Can you? I didn't think the yellowjacket could handle
a weapon that big....ah ha! It can't! You can equip the
yellowjacket with either a micro turrent or twin
firmpoints, neither one of which will mount a heavy
weapon.
Not that I'd want to mount a big gun on a bird that a
troll can drop by spitting lugies at it. <BG>

--Droopy
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Is this in RBB? According to the main book SR2 the
Wasp combat varients known as Yellow jackets mount
either 1 or 2 harpoints. 1 on either side of the
helicopter or 1 under the chin.
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:49:00 +0100
Jeffrey Riordan said on 8:13/15 Jul 96...

> Is this in RBB? According to the main book SR2 the
> Wasp combat varients known as Yellow jackets mount
> either 1 or 2 harpoints. 1 on either side of the
> helicopter or 1 under the chin.

The YJ in the RBB has an under-chin micro-turret, and a micro-turret
requires one hardpoint (RBB, page 122). It also has two stub-wings that
can carry up to 5 CF of weapons, and as an option you can get a double
firmpoint that is aimed forward.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Desolate and without purpose.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:17:44 -0500 (CDT)
> > Is this in RBB? According to the main book SR2 the
> > Wasp combat varients known as Yellow jackets mount
> > either 1 or 2 harpoints. 1 on either side of the
> > helicopter or 1 under the chin.
>
> The YJ in the RBB has an under-chin micro-turret, and a micro-turret
> requires one hardpoint (RBB, page 122). It also has two stub-wings that
> can carry up to 5 CF of weapons, and as an option you can get a double
> firmpoint that is aimed forward.

It also put in its first appearance in the street samurai catalog1.
which had chin firmpoint or wing double hardpoint option.
Just history.
Message no. 14
From: Droopy <droopy@**.net>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:25:22 -0400
At 11:49 AM 7/16/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>The YJ in the RBB has an under-chin micro-turret, and a micro-turret
>requires one hardpoint (RBB, page 122). It also has two stub-wings that
>can carry up to 5 CF of weapons, and as an option you can get a double
>firmpoint that is aimed forward.

The RBB specifies a micro turrent mount and not a general purpose (GP)
hardpoint.

As the yellowjacket can only mount a micro turrent, which has the same CF
cost as a hardpoint mount, it should be limited to what the micro turrent
can carry.

Just my interpretation of the rules.


--Droopy
Message no. 15
From: Droopy <droopy@**.net>
Subject: Re: Super Machine Guns was Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:25:19 -0400
At 08:13 AM 7/15/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Can you? I didn't think the yellowjacket could handle
>a weapon that big....ah ha! It can't! You can equip the

> Is this in RBB? According to the main book SR2 the
>Wasp combat varients known as Yellow jackets mount
>either 1 or 2 harpoints. 1 on either side of the
>helicopter or 1 under the chin.

Yes, it's RBB. Even though SR2 is newer, I'd consider RBB to be the
authority. I don't recall any mention of a change in the Deutch RBB, but
then I don't think that anyone really went through it yet. (it does have
BMW's and stuff though.)


--Droopy

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