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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Surgery costs
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:08:10 +0100
Simon T. Sailer said on 15:40/ 3 Jul 97...

> Good Idea, but the cost's are way too high... 250k nuyen is a joke
> even for drastic invasive surgery.

A joke as in being way too little, or way to much?

> And no player could ever hope to pay this for delta-grade sugery. Maybe
> i'ts intended to be that way, but 50 millions just for the surgery....

That's one of the troubles I have with surgery costs too. Alpha grade and
higher just costs too much in surgery to be available to anyone except
those with a corporation paying the tab. OTOH there are only very few
delta-grade clinics in the world, and nobody gets into them without the
owner's consent. Still, 50 times the normal price would make alpha grade
drastic invasive surgery still cost 12.5 million, which is a bit much
IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 2
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 01:18:52 -1000
>Alpha grade ....12.5 million.
As of Cybertechnology Alpha is a little more frequent. I'd give it the
standard medical costs.
Message no. 3
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 17:56:14 +0100
> A joke as in being way too little, or way to much?

Way too much.

> Still, 50 times the normal price would make alpha grade
> drastic invasive surgery still cost 12.5 million, which is a bit much
> IMHO.
>
> --
> Gurth

Compare the surgery cost with the cost of the implants... even if you
get alpha-wired reflexes, the surgery costs about 20 times as much as
the implant... and that's the point I do not understand.

ss
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:56:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-04 12:16:16 EDT, Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT (Simon T.
Sailer) writes:

>
> > Still, 50 times the normal price would make alpha grade
> > drastic invasive surgery still cost 12.5 million, which is a bit much
> > IMHO.
> >
> > --
> > Gurth
>
> Compare the surgery cost with the cost of the implants... even if you
> get alpha-wired reflexes, the surgery costs about 20 times as much as
> the implant... and that's the point I do not understand.

Let me try and help out Simon, please note, I said try...

It has been indicated in the Shadowtech and Cybertechnology sourcebooks that
cyber-implant surgery requires some incredibly impressive technology -AND-
magic.

On the Tech side of things, not only are the reuirements including sterile
wraps, bandages, tools and site, but they are also requiring sub-cellular
implant work, which includes nanites (not Star Trek things, but neat
none-the-less) and probably viral rna/dna/mna (mycorybonucleic) protein
compatibility controllers.

On the Magic side, especially with the heavier stuff, you are looking at
monitoring the aura and body-to-mind interaction scale. Even if the subject
is drugged up, his body and mind are very much at work, even if it is at the
subconscious level. Being able to monitor and even control (never thought
about Control Actions or Control Thoughts this way?) to assist the
physician's job by having the body perform some VERY strange, non-normal,
actions. How about, stop/alter bio-electrical pathways to the lower right
ulnary nerve, that way when the new Wired Reflex Implant goes in to that
region, it doesn't automatically create an autoresponse (read as reflex
action) which could disrupt the surgery or tear off the physicians head.

Standard Cyberware (and Bioware) implant work is not reliant upon these extra
measures as much, such is -part- of the reason that the essence loss is so
drastic. Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
it was Delta and Theta) class cyberware also includes the ability to implant
same said hardware. That means more initially delicate neurofibril
connections, more broad spectral compatibility requirements and technicians
with higher degrees of understanding (which are usually rarer).

And as for a magician with that scale of knowledge, well, I admit that in the
games here, it is very common for the PC's to aquire newer skills themselves
(the ultimate rarity, the cyberdoc is a PC)...but a magician who actually
goes into the medical field is a real rarity...most are security types or
detective types, health magic is more off-the-side, and usually harder drain
for the really good/desired stuff.

But those are just part of it, sorry if I lost you in any of it.
-Keith
Message no. 5
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:12:27 +0100
Wow, now this is a detailed answer. I'll save it just in case the
same question might arise again..

> Let me try and help out Simon, please note, I said try...
>
> It has been indicated in the Shadowtech and Cybertechnology sourcebooks that
> cyber-implant surgery requires some incredibly impressive technology -AND-
> magic.

Ok, after having read your explanations, I see why cyber surgery is
that expensive. (I still find it too expensive... but since I have no
idea which tools are needed to implant a cyberarm, this discussion
might lead to nowhere)
But what if there is no cyber or bioware
involved? what if you just have a arm amputated, which counts as
drastic invasive surgery, but should be a real routine job.


> Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
> it was Delta and Theta)

I've never heard of theta or gamma cyberware... where are they
mentioned? (Fasa does not seem to stick to the greek alphabet... they
are mixing upo the letters.. ;-)

<snip magicians>

IMHO, magicians are only involved in cybermantic procedures... it
would be prohibitively expensive to employ a mage who waches the
patients aura... I guess in 2055, computers are advanced enough to do
that jobat lower cost.

> But those are just part of it, sorry if I lost you in any of it.
> -Keith

Thanks for the answer.

ss
Message no. 6
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:56:57 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-04 19:43:00 EDT, Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT (Simon T.
Sailer) writes:

>
> Ok, after having read your explanations, I see why cyber surgery is
> that expensive. (I still find it too expensive... but since I have no
> idea which tools are needed to implant a cyberarm, this discussion
> might lead to nowhere)
> But what if there is no cyber or bioware
> involved? what if you just have a arm amputated, which counts as
> drastic invasive surgery, but should be a real routine job.

I guess I can agree with you there, the rules are a bit out of touch in these
regards. However, if someone were to want complete compatibility, then the
only way for COMPLETE to occur is if the aura's are synchronized fully.
Remember, though the flesh may remember, the Spirit knows the lies for what
they are.

> > Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
> > it was Delta and Theta)
>
> I've never heard of theta or gamma cyberware... where are they
> mentioned? (Fasa does not seem to stick to the greek alphabet... they
> are mixing upo the letters.. ;-)

Delta (Gamma) Class Cyberware is mentioned in the Cybertechnology
book...Sorry about the Theta Grade mentioning, that is something for the
House Rules' here after the space games...

> IMHO, magicians are only involved in cybermantic procedures... it
> would be prohibitively expensive to employ a mage who waches the
> patients aura... I guess in 2055, computers are advanced enough to do
> that jobat lower cost.

Sadly, no computer as yet can see the aura...if you get into Kirlian
Photography (OLD Topic), then who knows...

> > But those are just part of it, sorry if I lost you in any of it.
> > -Keith
>
> Thanks for the answer.
>
> ss

Not a Problem
-K
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:47 +0100
Simon T. Sailer said on 19:12/ 4 Jul 97...

> But what if there is no cyber or bioware
> involved? what if you just have a arm amputated, which counts as
> drastic invasive surgery, but should be a real routine job.

Not so: organic limb replacements are major invasive surgery, which costs
25,000 nuyen. For a simple amputation where no new limb of any kind is
installed, I think I'd charge for minor invasive, since it's not much more
than sawing off the old limb and treating the wound.

> > Alpha, Beta, and Gamma (and whatever comes next, in the games here,
> > it was Delta and Theta)
>
> I've never heard of theta or gamma cyberware... where are they
> mentioned? (Fasa does not seem to stick to the greek alphabet... they
> are mixing upo the letters.. ;-)

AFAIK it's because Tom Dowd got the Greek alphabet mixed up, and thought
delta came after beta...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:22:46 +0100
... ... said on 1:18/ 4 Jul 97...

> >Alpha grade ....12.5 million.
> As of Cybertechnology Alpha is a little more frequent. I'd give it the
> standard medical costs.

That's just the problem: Cybertechnology says on page 44, "For alpha- and
beta-grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times
the rates listed on page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules." However, page
145 is in the Magic chapter; SR1 has the medical fees on page 145, though,
so now I'll have to check the SSC... Yep, looks like someone copied that
line of text straight out of the Street Samurai Catalog and forgot to
update the page number :)

Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Without lies, there'd be 100% divorce rate, a lot of discontented
children, and no advertising industry.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:27:25 -0700
---Gurth wrote:

<snip>

> Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the
costs,
> that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5
million,
> and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.

I ran into the same issues. The 50x for Alpha/Beta or the 200x for
Delta on surgery and recovery can make things just ridiculous. I
finally ruled that Alpha/Beta are 150% and Delta 200% of the normal
surgery and recovery fees. (Basically a Street Index of 1.5 and 2 for
medical costs on custom cyberware, which seems more in keeping with
the system.)

===

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 10
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:11:05 -0500
You wrote:
> I ran into the same issues. The 50x for Alpha/Beta or the 200x for
> Delta on surgery and recovery can make things just ridiculous. I
> finally ruled that Alpha/Beta are 150% and Delta 200% of the normal
> surgery and recovery fees. (Basically a Street Index of 1.5 and 2 for
> medical costs on custom cyberware, which seems more in keeping with
> the system.)

Just a note in defense of said original prices, if you control one of the
*only* sources in the *world*, you can name your price so long as someone is
willing to pay it, enough someone's to keep you in business.

Myself, I've always wondered a bit after the prices of WR 2 and 3 anyway. Look
at CP's prices on cyber, I think they're a lot more realistic. 500,000 Nuyen
for a Cortex bomb? Can't be worth it, I'm sorry. 9,000 for retractable hand
razors? Come on, can you see anyone paying that kind of money?

losthalo
Message no. 11
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 23:23:11 -0600
At 01:11 7/7/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Myself, I've always wondered a bit after the prices of WR 2 and 3 anyway.
Look
>at CP's prices on cyber, I think they're a lot more realistic. 500,000 Nuyen
>for a Cortex bomb? Can't be worth it, I'm sorry. 9,000 for retractable hand
>razors? Come on, can you see anyone paying that kind of money?

If they were much more cheaper, it would be cost effective for every corp
to wire every important employee with a remote detonated cortext bomb.
Same with spurs, if they were 1,000, anyone could afford to have the
suckers implanted after only a few months savings.
Except me, I still don't have a real job. :P

-Adam

--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
Message no. 12
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:29:39 -0500
You wrote:
> If they were much more cheaper, it would be cost effective for every corp
> to wire every important employee with a remote detonated cortext bomb.
> Same with spurs, if they were 1,000, anyone could afford to have the
> suckers implanted after only a few months savings.
It already is cost-effective for corps, they produce the things. Those prices
are retail, the cost of production cannot be even near 235K for WR2. I'm not
saying it isn't pertinent to gamebalance, rather that they are not even
remotely in keeping with real-world pricing. I'd say the essence cost, not the
nuyen price, keeps corps from implanting wire in all their security.

> Except me, I still don't have a real job. :P
Ah, join the club.

losthalo
Message no. 13
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:08:37 -0500
At 05-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:

>Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
>that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
>and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.

Hmmm.........12.5million?
I can`t follow you here.
My calculations lead me to 45.500 for standard
2.275mega and 9.1mega for alpha/delta hospitalizion costs.
And thats for the worst case of no body successes.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 15:10:25 +0100
Barbie said on 9:08/ 7 Jul 97...

> At 05-Jul-97 wrote Gurth:
>
> >Anyway, seeing that Cybertechnology gives a 50x multiplier to the costs,
> >that still makes drastic invasive alpha grade surgery cost 12.5 million,
> >and puts it out of the reach of just about everyone.
>
> Hmmm.........12.5million?
> I can`t follow you here.
> My calculations lead me to 45.500 for standard
> 2.275mega and 9.1mega for alpha/delta hospitalizion costs.
> And thats for the worst case of no body successes.

Sorry, but what on earth are you talking about? Drastic invasive surgery
costs 250,000 nuyen for the surgery itself (Medical Costs Table,
Cybertechnology page 53). Alpha- and beta-grade cyberware multiply that by
50, so it becomes 12,500,000 nuyen for the surgery. I didn't mention
recovery costs at all, but figuring those in (hospitalization with no Body
successes at all, so the recovery time is 61 days), I get the following
costs:

Surgery + Recovery = Total
Standard 250,000 30,500 280,500
Alpha 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
Beta 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
Delta 50,000,000 6,100,000 56,100,000

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:05 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
| Surgery + Recovery = Total
| Standard 250,000 30,500 280,500
| Alpha 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
| Beta 12,500,000 1,525,000 14,025,000
| Delta 50,000,000 6,100,000 56,100,000

I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Yoink! - The sound of a crescent roll being stolen.
Message no. 16
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:54:06 EDT
On Mon, 7 Jul 1997 07:50:05 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:

>I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
>costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.

In a way, it does make a bit of sence.
Given the extremely delicate nature of the surgery (for alpha, beta,
gamma, etc.. grade) this could be justified in the intensive testing,
observations, alterations and general post-op stuff that they would do to
ensure that EVERYTHING is healing, connecting and interfacing at the
appropriate level.

In a nut shell, you can't go have massive brain surgery and then have a
podiatrist oversee your recovery.

~Tim (that and it's a bigger nuyen sink that way..)
Message no. 17
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:46:09 -0700
---David Buehrer wrote:
>
> I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
> costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.

SSC, page 99:
"Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times he rates listed on
page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules. You cannot have the work done
at a clinic and then transfer to a cheaper place for recuperation."

Cybertechnology, page 44:
"For alpha- and beta grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed on p. 145 of the
Shadowrun basic rules. For deltagrade cybersurgery, the fees are 200
times the rates listed."

@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 18
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:55:47 -0600
Loki wrote:
|
| ---David Buehrer wrote:
| >
| > I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
| > costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.
|
| SSC, page 99:
| "Doctor's fees and hospitalization are 50 times he rates listed on
| page 145 of the Shadowrun basic rules. You cannot have the work done
| at a clinic and then transfer to a cheaper place for recuperation."
|
| Cybertechnology, page 44:
| "For alpha- and beta grade cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
| hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed on p. 145 of the
| Shadowrun basic rules. For deltagrade cybersurgery, the fees are 200
| times the rates listed."

Thanks Loki.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:19:00 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:50/ 7 Jul 97...

> I don't have the rules handy, does it actually say that the recovery
> costs are multiplied also? Cuz that doesn't make sense to me.

Yes. Page 44 mentions that "cybersurgery, doctor's fees and
hospitalization are 50 times the rates listed." When you get down to it,
only with somebody really powerful backing you will you get access to
custom-grade cyberware, no matter if it is available "at most shadow
clinics."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: "... ..." <Brother-1@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 06:33:55 -1000
>>Alpha is a little more frequent
>That's just the problem...Cybertechnology...50x
What I was trying to get at is regardless of the books, I'd either
lessen the multiplier (probably in the case of both alpha and beta) or
drop it all together (possibly in the case of alpha).
Message no. 21
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:42:39 -0500
At 06:33 AM 7/8/97 -1000, ... ... wrote:
>>>Alpha is a little more frequent
>>That's just the problem...Cybertechnology...50x
>What I was trying to get at is regardless of the books, I'd either
>lessen the multiplier (probably in the case of both alpha and beta) or
>drop it all together (possibly in the case of alpha).
>
I thought the 50x surgery cost was only for Delta grade cyberware, and that
the others had different surgery multipliers, just like they had different
cost multipliers.


Rasputin-the-trying-to-get-into-an-Sr-book-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 22
From: mARCiN sERkIES <yasiu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 18:29:21 +0200
At 17:56 4.07.97 +0100, you wrote:

>Compare the surgery cost with the cost of the implants... even if you

>get alpha-wired reflexes, the surgery costs about 20 times as much as

>the implant... and that's the point I do not understand.


Why??? Just realize complication of that surgery. To put everything in right place WITHOUT
ANY MISTAKE. It`s long and hard task.

<center>]-[ yASiU ]-[ aKa mARCiN sERkIES ]-[ e-MAiL - yasiu@******.com
]-[ </center>
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:32:31 +0100
Michael Broadwater said on 11:42/ 8 Jul 97...

> I thought the 50x surgery cost was only for Delta grade cyberware, and that
> the others had different surgery multipliers, just like they had different
> cost multipliers.

The others are x50, delta-grade is x200. Since we seemed to have already
reached the conclusion that x50 is ridiculous for a normal person to pay,
x200 is totally out of the question I think. Luckily it won't normally
bother anyone except the corps who'll be paying the bills in a
delta-clinic...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Two words: therapy.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:44:21 +0100
> Why??? Just realize complication of that surgery. To put everything in
> right place WITHOUT ANY MISTAKE. It`s long and hard task.
>
> mARCiN sERkIES

But developing and building the Item in question is a long and hard
task, too. And if the surgery is that expensive, the differences in
cost between the cyber- and bioware items would literally vanish..

ss
Message no. 25
From: mARCiN sERkIES <yasiu@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:43:39 +0200
At 10:44 10.07.97 +0100, you wrote:
>But developing and building the Item in question is a long and hard
>task, too. And if the surgery is that expensive, the differences in
>cost between the cyber- and bioware items would literally vanish..

I think that hardware is less expesive than surgery. Just look on Pathfinder project.
Pathfinder cost 150.000.000USD but launching of it, landing etc. was far more expensive.
Same thing with cyberware i think

yASIu...
e-maIL [yasiu@******.com]
rEAL nAME???? wHAt iS rEAl nAME???
Message no. 26
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:38:58 +0100
> I think that hardware is less expesive than surgery. Just look on Pathfinder project.
Pathfinder
> cost 150.000.000USD but launching of it, landing etc. was far more
> expensive. Same thing with cyberwar>
> yASIu...

Well, Ok, thats your opinion... But comparing surgery with a flight
to mars....
And another thing... could you do something about your mails? eg. set
the column widt to 70? Would make them easier to read...

ss
Message no. 27
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:27:53 -0800
This is probably something that's been hashed out, but my players are
starting to get into the Alpha-ware level of cyberware. Something
that gave us pause was the 50x surgery cost for Alpha/Beta.
(Quick detail - my game is in 2054/early 2055), but most cyber/bioware
is in the game now.

When we crunched the numbers to see what some of the bigger mods
(deadly wound level) would cost, it became evident that this equipment
was not attainable within the context of what could be construed as a
normal Shadowrun campaign - eg: Most FASA modules operate under the
theme of "Screw the runners by making them do the 'right thing' at the
cost of losing all compensation." Even so, currently in my games
a lot of runs will compensate anywhere from $30k-$100k, depending on
the profile of the run.

In terms of cyber-surgery - adding something like
Given this, the 50x modifier for surgery and hospitalization,
for Wired 1 - alpha, you have:
Parts: 55,000 x 3 -> 165,000Y
Essence -> 1.6 -> Drastic Invasive
Surgery Costs: 250,000 x 50 -> 12,500,000Y
Hospitalization:
Deadly -> Serious: 30 (days) x 1,000Y x 50 -> 1,500,000

No way he's staying in the hospital to work off the rest
at those rates. If he can afford this, he can afford the high
lifestyle requirement to knock down the serious down to moderate.
(Screw you guys...I'm going home. ;-))

Total cost for Alpha Wired-I: 14,165,000Y (14.165 mil!!!)

At this point I'm scratching my head and wondering what FASA
was doing? Has there been a published errata to these rules?
Or was the 50x multiplier for surgery/hospitalization for beta/alpha
a typo? (ie: Should it have been x5?) At the moment, in my game I've
reduced the Alpha multipliers for surgery/hospitalization down to 12,
but that's still a big hit. Any houserule ideas?

Thanks for your thoughts.
-Rob
Message no. 28
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:49:36 -0500
On Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:27:53 -0800 Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
writes:
>This is probably something that's been hashed out, but my players are
>starting to get into the Alpha-ware level of cyberware. Something
>that gave us pause was the 50x surgery cost for Alpha/Beta.
>(Quick detail - my game is in 2054/early 2055), but most cyber/bioware
>is in the game now.
>
<SNIP Number Crunching>
>Total cost for Alpha Wired-I: 14,165,000Y (14.165 mil!!!)
>
>At this point I'm scratching my head and wondering what FASA
>was doing? Has there been a published errata to these rules?
>Or was the 50x multiplier for surgery/hospitalization for beta/alpha
>a typo? (ie: Should it have been x5?) At the moment, in my game I've
>reduced the Alpha multipliers for surgery/hospitalization down to 12,
>but that's still a big hit. Any houserule ideas?
>
>Thanks for your thoughts.
>-Rob

AFAIK, the x50 is correct ... remember, you don't go out, do one run, and
then hop into a shadowclinic to get alpha/beta grade anything ... you
save up for it ... for a loooong time ... when you get your first piece
of aplha grade `ware, IMO, that's how you know that "you done good" ...
(and for the GMs that allow the SOTA option, it's not your first piece of
alpha `ware until you've hunted it down in-game ...)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 29
From: "Jonny D. Robinson" <OracleBlur@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:56:35 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-20 03:21:41 EDT, you write:

> This is probably something that's been hashed out, but my players are
> starting to get into the Alpha-ware level of cyberware. Something
> that gave us pause was the 50x surgery cost for Alpha/Beta.
> (Quick detail - my game is in 2054/early 2055), but most cyber/bioware
> is in the game now.
>
> When we crunched the numbers to see what some of the bigger mods
> (deadly wound level) would cost, it became evident that this equipment
> was not attainable within the context of what could be construed as a
> normal Shadowrun campaign - eg: Most FASA modules operate under the
> theme of "Screw the runners by making them do the 'right thing' at the
> cost of losing all compensation." Even so, currently in my games
> a lot of runs will compensate anywhere from $30k-$100k, depending on
> the profile of the run.
>
> In terms of cyber-surgery - adding something like
> Given this, the 50x modifier for surgery and hospitalization,
> for Wired 1 - alpha, you have:
> Parts: 55,000 x 3 -> 165,000Y
> Essence -> 1.6 -> Drastic Invasive
> Surgery Costs: 250,000 x 50 -> 12,500,000Y
> Hospitalization:
> Deadly -> Serious: 30 (days) x 1,000Y x 50 -> 1,500,000
>
> No way he's staying in the hospital to work off the rest
> at those rates. If he can afford this, he can afford the high
> lifestyle requirement to knock down the serious down to moderate.
> (Screw you guys...I'm going home. ;-))
>
> Total cost for Alpha Wired-I: 14,165,000Y (14.165 mil!!!)
>
> At this point I'm scratching my head and wondering what FASA
> was doing? Has there been a published errata to these rules?
> Or was the 50x multiplier for surgery/hospitalization for beta/alpha
> a typo? (ie: Should it have been x5?) At the moment, in my game I've
> reduced the Alpha multipliers for surgery/hospitalization down to 12,
> but that's still a big hit. Any houserule ideas?

I personally never use surgery costs--one would think that those costs would
be included in the cost of the 'ware? (it would be no good just to get the
'ware, of course it would have to be implanted.) This helps (a little) since
our campaign is about 90% magical PCs, and this helps to balance out sam
improvements with Initiation.
Message no. 30
From: Bruce Lynch <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:08:28 -0500
> Re: Surgery costs ("Jonny D. Robinson" , Mon 8:56)
>
> In a message dated 98-07-20 03:21:41 EDT, you write:
>
> > This is probably something that's been hashed out, but my players are
> > starting to get into the Alpha-ware level of cyberware. Something
> > that gave us pause was the 50x surgery cost for Alpha/Beta.
> > (Quick detail - my game is in 2054/early 2055), but most cyber/bioware
> > is in the game now.
> >
> > When we crunched the numbers to see what some of the bigger mods
> > (deadly wound level) would cost, it became evident that this equipment
> > was not attainable within the context of what could be construed as a
> > normal Shadowrun campaign - eg: Most FASA modules operate under the
> > theme of "Screw the runners by making them do the 'right thing' at the
> > cost of losing all compensation." Even so, currently in my games
> > a lot of runs will compensate anywhere from $30k-$100k, depending on
> > the profile of the run.

Which to me, means you just don't ever GET the bigger mods, unless you
can get surgery for free. That exludes alphaware, probably, but my
character implanet Boosted reflexes three into another and got enough
succeses to reduce the essence cost. But when he wanted betaware
upgrades, every items final cost came to under .25e, to save cash. For
the years / time your talking about, that seems reasonable.

> >
> > In terms of cyber-surgery - adding something like
> > Given this, the 50x modifier for surgery and hospitalization,
> > for Wired 1 - alpha, you have:
> > Parts: 55,000 x 3 -> 165,000Y
> > Essence -> 1.6 -> Drastic Invasive
> > Surgery Costs: 250,000 x 50 -> 12,500,000Y
> > Hospitalization:
> > Deadly -> Serious: 30 (days) x 1,000Y x 50 -> 1,500,000
> >
> > No way he's staying in the hospital to work off the rest
> > at those rates. If he can afford this, he can afford the high
> > lifestyle requirement to knock down the serious down to moderate.
> > (Screw you guys...I'm going home. ;-))
> >
> > Total cost for Alpha Wired-I: 14,165,000Y (14.165 mil!!!)

I think you (unfortunately) HAVE to stay and recover (the rules say
so), becuase (IMO) part of the benefit of custom wares comes from fine
tuning done after surgery ; especially with neural contacts. The times
given might be off a bit.
I can't saywhat would happenifyou didn't, though. Most people allow a
"heal" spell would also be acceptable replacement, but I'm not so
sure...

> > At this point I'm scratching my head and wondering what FASA
> > was doing? Has there been a published errata to these rules?
> > Or was the 50x multiplier for surgery/hospitalization for beta/alpha
> > a typo? (ie: Should it have been x5?) At the moment, in my game I've
> > reduced the Alpha multipliers for surgery/hospitalization down to 12,
> > but that's still a big hit. Any houserule ideas?

In fact,I've been writing an entiere surgical/ recovery system,and will
be pitching it and some other crap at FASA (they have shown some
moderate interst, so wish me luck). I agree that prices should be more
reasonable (and less hugely incremented), especially in 2059, and that
the procedures and gear involved should be outlined so you can determine
price and time taken, and so you can do surgery yourself as a PC.

>
> I personally never use surgery costs--one would think that those costs would
> be included in the cost of the 'ware? (it would be no good just to get the
> 'ware, of course it would have to be implanted.) This helps (a little) since
> our campaign is about 90% magical PCs, and this helps to balance out sam
> improvements with Initiation.

If that works for you, its not terribly bad. It does solve the
question of why starting characters get implantation surgery for free.
I think for some items, like 'jacks and skillwires, the intense neural
connectivity would require advanced surgery relative to item cost, but,
being common, those items might have semi-automated implantation
procedures (some of which I've whipped up descriptions for, but no rules
yet).

Mongoose
Message no. 31
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:04 +0000
and thus did Alfredo B Alves speak on 20 Jul 98 at 2:49:

> <SNIP Number Crunching>
> >Total cost for Alpha Wired-I: 14,165,000Y (14.165 mil!!!)

> AFAIK, the x50 is correct ... remember, you don't go out, do one run, and
> then hop into a shadowclinic to get alpha/beta grade anything ... you
> save up for it ... for a loooong time ... when you get your first piece
> of aplha grade `ware, IMO, that's how you know that "you done good" ...
> (and for the GMs that allow the SOTA option, it's not your first piece of
> alpha `ware until you've hunted it down in-game ...)

Erhm, sorry but if I had 14.2 million as a runner I wouldn't bother
with a piece of alpha cyber, but just get the hell out of Seattle,
buy a nice place in the Carrib league and retire. AFAIK, Rob's right
and the surgery costs are exessive. I tend to stick to the normal
prices and figure that the extra cost of the cyber itself is enough.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 32
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Surgery costs
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:33:25 -0300
At 12:34 23/07/98 +0000, you wrote:
>and thus did Alfredo B Alves speak on 20 Jul 98 at 2:49:
>
>
>
>Erhm, sorry but if I had 14.2 million as a runner I wouldn't bother
>with a piece of alpha cyber, but just get the hell out of Seattle,
>buy a nice place in the Carrib league and retire. AFAIK, Rob's right
>and the surgery costs are exessive. I tend to stick to the normal
>prices and figure that the extra cost of the cyber itself is enough.
>
>Karina & Martin Steffens
>chimerae@***.ie
>

The Companion says that by 2057 all alpha grade cyberware has pecome
widely available, wich means
you only pay the extra cost for the cyber, not for the surgery. You could
even get it a character creation...

Bira

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