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Message no. 1
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Suspension of Disbelief [was- Re: The land of OZ??
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:31:02 +1100
At 09:13 23/10/98 -0400, Shaun Gilroy wrote:
>At 12:55 PM 10/23/98 +1000, Chris Maxfield wrote:
>>had read it. Too many things in Shadowrun future history "Just Happen".
>
>I really think you're being a little harsh considering the entire Shadowrun
>setting history takes less than 15 pages of the BABY. None of that is any
>less believable that cycles of magic.

A BABY edition? Lucky you. ;-)

No, I don't think I'm being too harsh and I'm not talking just about the
core book. In fact, I'm mostly referring to the location books such as
Germany and the London Sourcebook. Certainly, the cycles of magic are an
impossibility but they are a given, a defining aspect of the game system.
The believability of the magic is not an issue; it can't be an issue
because it can't be explained. It just is - and is accepted as such.
However, this is not a good excuse for authors who are too lazy to put some
effort and workmanship into creating a consistent and plausible history
within the context of the accepted Shadowrun impossibilities.

>If you are willing to believe that magic (exists, as well as) returns to
>the world, I really think the rest of the events are well within the bounds
>of reason.

We may be talking at cross-purposes here. I'm only referring to Shadowrun
future history and sociology excluding events like the Awakening, UGE, the
Crash and so on. Also, I'm not saying that things can't happen but rather
they are simply not justified enough. I consider Shadowrun to be,
otherwise, a reasonably good quality product.

For my friends and I, and I'm sure many other gamers as well, part of the
pleasure of the Shadowrun game is that we like to pretend, during a gaming
session, that it is truly the future of our own world. As you say, a
suspension of disbelief. This suspension is spoilt when a sourcebook author
specifies an event or background without sufficient effort to say why.
Sometimes just a few more words, a couple of sentences or a paragraph can
change an unjustified, bizarre event into a plausible historical
consequence of previous events. At the moment we have England under the
Protector, Germany and Italy fragmented, and China under the Warlords. Why?
It just makes no historical sense inspite of what is written. Disbelief
should be suspended, not hung from the neck until dead. :-)

>Besides, there are plenty of unreasonable things that "just happen" in RL.
>The difference is that we have more that 15 pages of context for them.

Mmm? You'll have to give me an example here because I'm pretty damned
certain that in RL everything that happens is a consequence of what has
happened before. Or do you mean that we don't always know the reasons?
That's certainly the case but there is no need for such mysteries in
fictional accounts - the author is god.
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 2
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Suspension of Disbelief [was- Re: The land of OZ??
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:41:32 +0100
And so it came to happen that Chris Maxfield wrote in reply to Shaun Gilroy:
<snip>
> No, I don't think I'm being too harsh and I'm not talking just about the
> core book. In fact, I'm mostly referring to the location books such as
> Germany and the London Sourcebook.

While you mention it, I realy don't like that one (German), but that is a different
story ;o)

<snip> I'm only referring to Shadowrun
> future history and sociology excluding events like the Awakening, UGE, the
> Crash and so on. Also, I'm not saying that things can't happen but rather
> they are simply not justified enough. I consider Shadowrun to be,
> otherwise, a reasonably good quality product.
>
> For my friends and I, and I'm sure many other gamers as well, part of the
> pleasure of the Shadowrun game is that we like to pretend, during a gaming
> session, that it is truly the future of our own world. As you say, a
> suspension of disbelief.

That seems to be the problem, pretending that this is our future. Sure it is one
possible future (although the possibility will be nearly zero). But don't forget,
this is a Game with a history that was build up by a few mere mortals for our
convienience and their cash only.
I don't intend to spoil your fun in pretending that this our possible future, but be
serious, if you right now, right where you sit would suddenly feel a tough as nails
hand on your shoulder, looking slowly around and would see a face nearly three meters
above yours, horns and large tooths, grumbling "Hi, am da Troll. Wuz up
breeder?",
wouldn't you at least be a bit scared (leaving out both facts that your room isn't
probably high enough or that you simply don't thought a visitor would be coming)? I
for myself would be pretty horified if I would see one of those Metas IRL,
cosmopolitan as I am. Point is, this projected "Future" maybe something nice in
a way
(leaving out UGE, VITAS and the crash) but I would not wonder if that would change
history enough to get the humans a bit fuzzy. So the history could develop that way
IMO.

> This suspension is spoilt when a sourcebook author
> specifies an event or background without sufficient effort to say why.
> Sometimes just a few more words, a couple of sentences or a paragraph can
> change an unjustified, bizarre event into a plausible historical
> consequence of previous events.

And would the size of most books explode. If you try to explain everything then you
have to take time aka space. Thats it, simple, just say some words on the history,
make it more or less plausible and then fire away with the stuff that concerns the
majority the stuff settled in the now and then of the SR-Universe (2060 right now
;o)).

>At the moment we have England under the
> Protector, Germany and Italy fragmented, and China under the Warlords. > Why?

Don't know. But that is what I sometimes ask myself when I look something up in the
history of our humble race. Why? Why the Nazis? Why the Witchhunts? Why the hell
haven't the Maya (or Aztecs) invented the wheel? There are thousands of examples,
probably more than one could think of, but THATS it, history is from our point of
View predictable. But not From the Point of View of our ancestors. Example could be
the falling of the wall in germany. It all happend more or less very quick, That it
came down is just a good example for that, I had'nt even considered that the wall
comes down in the near future, and then suddenly it wen't down overnight and I found
myself cheering in the crowd on the Ku-Damm (the place to be in Berlin if you listen
to those Tourists ;o)). OK, more or less, but I was shocked (to the positive).

> It just makes no historical sense inspite of what is written. Disbelief
> should be suspended, not hung from the neck until dead. :-)
>
> >Besides, there are plenty of unreasonable things that "just happen" in
RL.
> >The difference is that we have more that 15 pages of context for them.
>
> Mmm? You'll have to give me an example here because I'm pretty damned
> certain that in RL everything that happens is a consequence of what has
> happened before. Or do you mean that we don't always know the reasons?
> That's certainly the case but there is no need for such mysteries in
> fictional accounts - the author is god.

Yes, but then (IMO) as a author you are far more concentrated as not to invent
something to groovy, regardless wether it is possible or not. For example the Tir's
seem to be both aristrocratic. In 2060. Doesn't sounds reasonable, right? We are
civilised, we do not need to be comanded from someone who has a "better"
heritage.
But than Elves out of Fantasy are most often described as aristrocratic in behaviour
and civilisation. So it seems to be perfect. And, hey, Great Britain is an old
monarchy (more or less, probably less) so just make one elven nation highly
aristrocratic, aka "better". Then take the other Tir and do the same. It all
fits
into the eyes of the average fantasy interested reader. But to the rest of the world
a monarchy would probably count as very barbaric.
Same for Germany and China, both had once in history those feudalistic system or
warlords, it all is not that far in the past out of a historicans POV.
I can live with the facts presented in the Country Sourcebooks, even though I might
consider them "funny" to say the least. See, I have rambled a lot on this whole,
presenting you my POV, probably nothing or little sayd to convince you that FASA did
a OK job for the Sourcebooks. Maybe thats wy FASA has recently not released complete
countrybooks. You can't make it for everyone acceptable. They would not have those
problems if they let the whole setting be settled in a different world than ours. But
than it would be less fun, that I must admit (although I do not exactly know why it
is like this ;o))
End of rambling, My point is if it not suits you, kick it and make it yourself. If it
suits you use it. And always take your time before purchasing a product, blind buys
are allways riscy, I can tell.
--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!

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