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From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Suspension of Disbelief [was- Re: The land of OZ?? (Australia)]
Date:	Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:13:46 -0400

Message no. 1 At 12:55 PM 10/23/98 +1000, you wrote:
>had read it. Too many things in Shadowrun future history "Just Happen".
>

I really think you're being a little harsh considering the entire Shadowrun
setting history takes less than 15 pages of the BABY. None of that is any
less believable that cycles of magic.

If you are willing to believe that magic (exists, as well as) returns to
the world, I really think the rest of the events are well within the bounds
of reason.

Besides, there are plenty of unreasonable things that "just happen" in RL.
The difference is that we have more that 15 pages of context for them.

>Chris Maxfield
(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

From:	Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Suspension of Disbelief [was- Re: The land of OZ??(Australia)]
Date:	Tue, 27 Oct 1998 01:29:04 +1100

Message no. 2 At 21:41 25/10/98 +0100, Steadfast wrote:
>
>That seems to be the problem, pretending that this is our future. Sure it
is one
>possible future (although the possibility will be nearly zero). But don't
forget,
>this is a Game with a history that was build up by a few mere mortals for our
>convienience and their cash only.
<<< snip the unwelcome visiting troll>>>

On rereading what I wrote I feel I didn't express myself too well. :-( We
don't really pretend that the Shadowrun future history is real. Not in the
slightest. What we do, however, is suspend disbelief, accept it, treat it
as if it were real - thereby allowing the game to continue with all the
real world details not mentioned in the sourcebooks. For example, have they
ever mentioned toilet bowls in the sourcebooks? :-) But because this is
part of our world we can say that of course there are toilet bowls. (Anyone
done the Virtual Seattle game Discommoded?)

It just gets difficult to do his sometimes when a Shadowrun future history
circumstance really seems too unnecessarily bizarre to be swallowed.

>And would the size of most books explode. If you try to explain everything
then you
>have to take time aka space. Thats it, simple, just say some words on the
history,
>make it more or less plausible and then fire away with the stuff that
concerns the
>majority the stuff settled in the now and then of the SR-Universe (2060
right now
>;o)).

Yeah. I realize this. But are some of these events and situations really
core to the game? Would the game fall apart without England under the
Protector? If not, they probably should have been left out rather than left
unjustified. Perhaps more concentration on the cyberpunk and sixth world
aspects and influences in the game rather than repeating history would make
for a cleaner product. Also, I think maybe a better choice of words rather
than more words would help the history and society sections enormously.

>Don't know. But that is what I sometimes ask myself when I look something
up in the
>history of our humble race. Why? Why the Nazis? Why the Witchhunts? Why
the hell
>haven't the Maya (or Aztecs) invented the wheel? There are thousands of
examples,

But all these things are a consequence of cause and effect. Unpredicted and
unexpected, sure, but still a consequence of the clearly visible currents
and individual choices of history.

>probably more than one could think of, but THATS it, history is from our
point of
>View predictable. But not From the Point of View of our ancestors. Example
could be

Predictable? No I'd never say that. I would say consistent, however, a
result of cause and effect.

>the falling of the wall in germany. It all happend more or less very
quick, That it
>came down is just a good example for that, I had'nt even considered that
the wall
>comes down in the near future, and then suddenly it wen't down overnight
and I found
>myself cheering in the crowd on the Ku-Damm (the place to be in Berlin if
you listen
>to those Tourists ;o)). OK, more or less, but I was shocked (to the
positive).

You were there!!! Damn, damn, damn <envy fuse blows>. I must have spent
hundreds of hours sitting in front of the TV watching those events unfold. :-)

>> fictional accounts - the author is god.
>
>Yes, but then (IMO) as a author you are far more concentrated as not to
invent
>something to groovy, regardless wether it is possible or not. For example
the Tir's
>seem to be both aristrocratic. In 2060. Doesn't sounds reasonable, right?
We are

We have aristocracies now, both titled as in Britain and Moneyed as just
about anywhere. People are bowing and scrapping to these aristocracies now.
I don't see any reason why they wouldn't still be doing so 60 year from
now. <shrug>

>Same for Germany and China, both had once in history those feudalistic
system or
>warlords, it all is not that far in the past out of a historicans POV.

I make some comments about the warlords in another post. The fact that
these situations are in the recent past just does not make them
particularly historically likely. Certainly no more likely in those
countries than in any other countries.

>countrybooks. You can't make it for everyone acceptable. They would not
have those
>problems if they let the whole setting be settled in a different world
than ours. But
>than it would be less fun, that I must admit (although I do not exactly
know why it
>is like this ;o))

I agree. Though sometimes those sourcebooks do seem to be set in a
different world from ours and so, as you say, are less fun.

>End of rambling, My point is if it not suits you, kick it and make it
yourself. If it
>suits you use it. And always take your time before purchasing a product,
blind buys
>are allways riscy, I can tell.

Yes. You're right. <blush> The truth is that I've been buying these
Shadowrun books for so long now that I simply buy what ever comes out now
so as to maintain a complete collection. </blush> (It took some blood,
sweat and tears and a friend's visit to the USA to get a copy of the
Neoanarchist's Guide to North America!)

Chris Maxfield
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au>
------------------------------------------
The more complex the programs of an organism, the greater is the
danger of insanity. It is very, very hard to be a god.
----------------------------------------
Canberra, Australia

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