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Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 17:32:01 +0000
The Nightstalker writes:

> Wrong! Notice the steps of spell casting are as follows. (SRII page 129)
>
> E) Mkae Spell Resistance Test
> F) Determine Results
> G) Make Drain Resistance Test
>
> Notice that Drain Resistance is he last step. That's why it sayes
"Lastly".
> The last step to spell casting is Drain Resistance. Nowhere does it say you
> make your Drain Resistance Test at the end of spell sustating.

Well, it could be interpreted that steps A-D occur when the spell is cast,
and that E-F occur during the sustained period, so G must occur after the
sustained period. Like, say you cast invisibility, then you make the tests to
cast it, and then sustain it. While it is being sustained, the resistance
tests are made when people try to spot you, and the results are determined
then. After you drop the spell, you suffer drain.

> No. The books says "No target modifiers apply to this test." (SRII page
132).
> Injury modifiers do not affect the Damage Resistance Test, and that includes
> combat pool dice allowcated tothe DRT. Interestily, the Injury Modifier is
> also a "univeral modifier" like the one for sustaining spells. However the
> rules do not say that no target modifiers apply to the DRT. I wonder if this
> was an oversight?

Certanly makes those stink spells good for more than humour. Give you enemy a
+4 to his target numbers, then shoot him.

> > But the other day I saw, under ritual sorcery, that if the team
> >sustains a spell, then they get +2 to their drain test target number. This
> >makes little sense, unless they actually take drain at the time of casting,
> >as otherwise, as you all would have me beleive, if they took drain after
> >dropping the spell, then they would no longer have the +2 for sustaining a
> >spell. Also, come to think of it, would not normal sustained spells have a
> >+2 to their drain tests if the ritual sorcery does?
>
> I would call this a screw up on FASA's part. Gee, the rules aren't perfect
> afterall.

I wonder what the Official Praiser of SRII rules thinks on this?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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Message no. 2
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 11:40:47 -0700
Thank you for the Question Damion,

On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:

> The Nightstalker writes:
>
> > Wrong! Notice the steps of spell casting are as follows. (SRII page 129)
>
> Well, it could be interpreted that steps A-D occur when the spell is cast,
> and that E-F occur during the sustained period, so G must occur after the
> sustained period. Like, say you cast invisibility, then you make the tests to
> cast it, and then sustain it. While it is being sustained, the resistance
> tests are made when people try to spot you, and the results are determined
> then. After you drop the spell, you suffer drain.
>
> > No. The books says "No target modifiers apply to this test." (SRII
page 132).
>
> > > But the other day I saw, under ritual sorcery, that if the team
> > >sustains a spell, then they get +2 to their drain test target number. This

Brevity cuts

> > >spell. Also, come to think of it, would not normal sustained spells have a
> > >+2 to their drain tests if the ritual sorcery does?
> >
> > I would call this a screw up on FASA's part. Gee, the rules aren't perfect
> > afterall.
>
> I wonder what the Official Praiser of SRII rules thinks on this?

I surmise that I am that "Official Praiser of SRII". What I have to say
is that the rules are very clear on the subject. The rule on pg. 128 or
SRII says that the mage suffers a universal Traget Number modifier of +2
and the second comment on page 136 states that it acts as Sustaining a
spell and so adds +2 to the Drain Resistance roll. Going to the Grimoire
II there is no mention of changes in the rules for either Resisting the
Drain of Sustained spells or of Sustained spells in general.

So, the drain from a sustained spell is resisted at the end of the period
of the sustainment per pg 129, item g. and the strain of sustaining the
spell makes the mage take a +2 to the TN of their Drain Resistance Test.

BTW, I am not "official", I don't gat paid.

Ivy
Message no. 3
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:32:26 -0700
Ivy, Daimon, your both wrong.

Casting a spell is a complex action. The following things happen. I will
use the example of a magician casting and invisibility spell to make it
absolutely clear to you.

Please note SRII page 129 Casting Spells

A) Determine spell - also check to see if any spells are being sustained, and
if so whether either is exclusive. EX: This spell is not exclusive in
this example, nor are any other spells being maintained.

B) Determine target - EX: the magician himself

C) Apply Situation Modifiers - EX: None

D) Make Spell Sucess Test - EX: Force 5 with 3 Magic Pool Dice.

E) Make Spell Resistance Test - EX: None

F) Determine Results - EX: 6 sucesses gives Invisibility with TN 12 to detect.

G) Make Drain Resistance Test - EX: 4 Willpower + 3 Magic Pool dice.

This all happens at the moment of spell casting. Doubt me? Read through page
129 and find me the part where it says, "you don't need to resist drain until
you stop sustaining the spell." It's not there.

Must be on page 132 under Drain Resistance Test. Umm, I can't seem to find
it.

It must be under Sustained Spells on page 128. Nope it's not there either.

In fact it is nowhere. You two are assuming this based on one word in one
paragarph of the rules. "Lastly", a throw away word which means the last step.
Don't believe me? As the DLOH, he'll readily agree.
_
*******************************************************************************
* See Ya in Shadows * * "Trust No One." *
* Jason J Carter * Carter@***.EDU * The late Deep Throat *
* The Nightstalker * * The X-Files *
*******************************************************************************
Message no. 4
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 20:16:46 +0000
The Official Praiser of SRII Rules writes:

> I surmise that I am that "Official Praiser of SRII". What I have to say
> is that the rules are very clear on the subject. The rule on pg. 128 or
> SRII says that the mage suffers a universal Traget Number modifier of +2
> and the second comment on page 136 states that it acts as Sustaining a
> spell and so adds +2 to the Drain Resistance roll.
>
> So, the drain from a sustained spell is resisted at the end of the period
> of the sustainment per pg 129, item g. and the strain of sustaining the
> spell makes the mage take a +2 to the TN of their Drain Resistance Test.

Well, it could also be interpreted that while you sustain a spell, you get +2
and then when you drop it, you take drain. But when you drop it, you are no
longer sustaining the spell, so you don't get the +2. Sound logical?
One could also read it this way: Sinse you do get a +2 to the drain test, then
the test for drain must occur while the spell is being sustained, i.e., when
you cast it, not when you drop it.
Anyway, I don't go with either. It says under drain resistance that there are
_no_ target number modifiers, so, sustaining spells does not give you a
modifier to your drain resistance test. I reckon the bit under ritual sorcery
is either a stuff up, or a unique example where the drain test gets a modifier.

BTW, we still haven't decided whether or not damage resistance tests (like
bullets) have target number modifiers yet. Whadda ya think on that one?

> BTW, I am not "official", I don't gat paid.

Perhaps you should ask :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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Message no. 5
From: Stuart Skabo <sj_skabo@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 21:44:22 +1000
Damion writes,

>Well, it could also be interpreted that while you sustain a spell, you get +2
>and then when you drop it, you take drain. But when you drop it, you are no
>longer sustaining the spell, so you don't get the +2. Sound logical?

Yes!, because dropping a spell is a free action (which is virtually
instant?) so you aren't sustaining the spell when you take the drain. I
also agree that spells can have no drain modifier other than force, just
like bullets can't have damage modifiers except for the type of bullet etc.


Little bunny frou frous, nghtchld !
Message no. 6
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 09:42:11 -0700
Nightstalker, you're right. I reread the whole thing, with your
arguments in mind and you are correct.

On the drain for Ritual Magic it makes sense if looked at with your
interpretation. They are holding the spell together after taking the
Drain, so they have the +2 Modifier.

Ivy
Message no. 7
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:27:25 -0400
As for sustained spells and drain.

The very fact that the spell is sustained means it is designed with a
higher drain code, as per the rules for spell design in the grimoire.

The sustaining modifier of +2 is NOT added to the drain target, because
it was already factored into the target number during spell design.
Virtually nothing can up the target numbers for resistance tests, and
this is no exception. Where the modifier DOES apply is when you are
trying to shoot that guard after he has pierced to 4 physical masks you
are sustaining on your party members as they try to fast-talk their way
past the guard post.

As for when the drain test is made (either at the beginning or end of the
sustaining period) that is unclear. I maintain that it is made at the
beginning (it's harder to turn a lightbulb on than it is to keep it on),
but equally valid argumanets can be made either way. That one is
ambiguous enough to be left to the gamemaster.

Marc (the clarifying maniac)
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Sustained Spells and Drain
Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 01:07:04 +0000
The Nightstalker writes:

> [details of how he interprets the spell casting rules]

This is actuall exactly how I handle it, I was just pointing out that it could
be interpreted differently.

> This all happens at the moment of spell casting. Doubt me? Read through page
> 129 and find me the part where it says, "you don't need to resist drain until
> you stop sustaining the spell." It's not there.

Well, likewise, tell me where it says the opposite. It is all open to
interpretation.

> In fact it is nowhere. You two are assuming this based on one word in one
> paragarph of the rules. "Lastly", a throw away word which means the last
step.
> Don't believe me? As the DLOH, he'll readily agree.

Well, a single word can mean a heck of a lot, I'm sure some of the more history
orientated can give us examples of where a single misinterpreted word caused
something minor to flare up into something very major.
As for asking the DLoH, well, I'll have to take your word on the fact that
it was meant to be interpreted that way.

> In the spell casting section of SRII there are 2 contraditions the the rule
> that states there are no modifiers to the Drain Resistance Test. A third
> exist in the Ritual Sorcery rules.

Just what the two contradictions are I would like to know (I can only see the
Ritual Sorcery one). As for the Ritual Sorcery one, I would not use the +2 mod
it must have been an oversight.

> Somebody want to reconcile these for me?

I'll echo that statement (Question really :-))

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

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Further Reading

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