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Message no. 1
From: "Lindblom Fredrik, Training" <fredrik.lindblom@*******.TELIA.SE>
Subject: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:14:00 PDT
>Ha, wait untill someone gets their hands on the mil suits in FOF (its
>reach ont and catch the missile time) (not that my players have the
>contacts I just see the possabilities). On the other hand the new
>super guns (15 rnds/max/burst) are neat, load up with APDS attach

Which super guns do you mean, exactly? The SuperMachs?

>recoil comps, hit someone with a burst of 15 (and in that armour they
>ain't jumping out of the way), and start scraping them off the walls.

The mil-spec armor suits count as hardened armor (i.e. vehicle armor) if I
remember it right (hell, I should have all the rulebooks HERE instead if at
home :-). Which means: All weapons with less basic (before burst/auto
modifiers) power than the armor rating, literally, bounces off. With APDS,
ofcourse, only half the armor counts, but (look, I'm really sorry I cannot
remember the stats for those mil-armor suits) a set of military armor with
ballistic value 16 will bounce a 10-round burst from an assault-rifle
packing APDS rounds. As I said I'm not sure if those suits go as high as
Ballistic 16, but it's still possible to have orthoskin and titanium bone
lacing underneath...so you can get real close if you try...

Kinda scary when you need an AVM or an Assault cannon to drop a guy, neh?

MxM

PS. My players are _barely aware_ that there IS such a thing as mil-spec
armor. :)

>>>[" I know there is a light at the end of the tunnel, but I can't see it
through all the gunsmoke and my mirrored shades. "]<<<
Message no. 2
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 10:46:56 BST
MxM :-
<stuff about mil-spec and bouncing ammo>
Exactly what I was going to say, ithose finky guns suck except
for light targets in a suppressive mode. Or Light targets in a
direct fire mode, if you've modified the gun a lot.

> PS. My players are _barely aware_ that there IS such a thing
> as mil-spec armor. :)

Lcuky for you chummer, mine know about it, they just can't afford
/get-to it, especially as the stuff degrades every time it takes
a penetrating hit :-) :-) :-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 3
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:21:01 +0100
On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Lindblom Fredrik, Training wrote:

> >recoil comps, hit someone with a burst of 15 (and in that armour they
> >ain't jumping out of the way), and start scraping them off the walls.
>
> The mil-spec armor suits count as hardened armor (i.e. vehicle armor) if I
> remember it right (hell, I should have all the rulebooks HERE instead if at
> home :-). Which means: All weapons with less basic (before burst/auto
> modifiers) power than the armor rating, literally, bounces off. With APDS,
> ofcourse, only half the armor counts,
Actually, against Hardened Armour APDS are useless (well almost), they do
*not* half arrmour, in fact their *power* is reduced by half (I think).
Check out the firearms against vehicles bit in SR2 combat.

This is also the main reason why anyone would buy Gel armour and use it
on anything less than armour with Ballistics:6 (so they can stop Light
pistols, as well as HOs, dead). Have some guy with a gel treated Armour
Jacket (5/3 count as hardened) get shot by someone with a Ares Pred II
firing APDS (normally 9M and halve armour). As the gel armour is hardened
the APDS is at half Power ie 5 (if the GM is generous and allows to round
up) this Power only equals and does not *exceed* the armour jacket's 5
ballistics, and so the bullet just bounces off :)

So heres the lesson boys and girls, if you've doen your legwork well and
you've found out your opponent packs APDS as standard, then wear Gel
treated armour.

Geez, and I thought that Gel armour was useless :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 4
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 07:56:01 -0700
>On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Lindblom Fredrik, Training wrote:
>
>> >recoil comps, hit someone with a burst of 15 (and in that
>> >armour they ain't jumping out of the way), and start scraping
>> >them off the walls.
>>
>> The mil-spec armor suits count as hardened armor (i.e. vehicle
>> armor) if I remember it right (hell, I should have all the
>> rulebooks HERE instead if at home :-). Which means: All weapons
>> with less basic (before burst/auto modifiers) power than the
>> armor rating, literally, bounces off. With APDS, of course, only
>> half the armor counts,
>The Digital Mage replies:
>Actually, against Hardened Armour APDS are useless (well almost),
>they do *not* half armour, in fact their *power* is reduced
>by half (I think). Check out the firearms against vehicles bit
>in SR2 combat.
>This is also the main reason why anyone would buy Gel armour and
>use it on anything less than armour with Ballistics:6 (so they
>can stop Light pistols, as well as HOs, dead). Have some guy
>with a gel treated Armour Jacket (5/3 count as hardened) get
>shot by someone with a Ares Pred II firing APDS (normally 9M
>and halve armour). As the gel armour is hardened the APDS is
>at half Power ie 5 (if the GM is generous and allows to round
>up) this Power only equals and does not *exceed* the armour
>jacket's 5 ballistics, and so the bullet just bounces off :)

Well I don't think that is what they mean. I think what it
is saying that APDS treats Hardened Armor as Normal armor
with the power of the bullet halved.
So your 9M APDS round would hit the Gel Armor 5/3 and would
reduce the bullet to a measly 4M (it still penetrates because
the base damage is greater the the balistics level of the
Gel so now the 4M will not penetrate the Normal Armor
so it is now 0M - doing blunt trama. (but now you have a section
of the gel armor that is useless/destroyed...) (this is how
it works IMHO)

Thanks Gary C.
Message no. 5
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 18:25:35 +0100
On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Gary Carroll wrote:

> >The Digital Mage replies:
> >Actually, against Hardened Armour APDS are useless (well almost),
> >they do *not* half armour, in fact their *power* is reduced
> >by half (I think). Check out the firearms against vehicles bit
> >in SR2 combat.
> >This is also the main reason why anyone would buy Gel armour and
> >use it on anything less than armour with Ballistics:6 (so they
> >can stop Light pistols, as well as HOs, dead). Have some guy
> >with a gel treated Armour Jacket (5/3 count as hardened) get
> >shot by someone with a Ares Pred II firing APDS (normally 9M
> >and halve armour). As the gel armour is hardened the APDS is
> >at half Power ie 5 (if the GM is generous and allows to round
> >up) this Power only equals and does not *exceed* the armour
> >jacket's 5 ballistics, and so the bullet just bounces off :)
>
> Well I don't think that is what they mean. I think what it
> is saying that APDS treats Hardened Armor as Normal armor
> with the power of the bullet halved.
Okay, so they do damage at a base of two TN, but it still means its
mighty effective against APDS, as only APDS would have its power halved
(normal rounds don't get their power halved against vehicles do they? At
least not in 2nd Ed)

> So your 9M APDS round would hit the Gel Armor 5/3 and would
> reduce the bullet to a measly 4M (it still penetrates because
> the base damage is greater the the balistics level of the
> Gel so now the 4M will not penetrate the Normal Armor
> so it is now 0M - doing blunt trama. (but now you have a section
> of the gel armor that is useless/destroyed...) (this is how
> it works IMHO)
It depends on whether you compare the Halved Power or the Standard Power
with the hardened rating to see whether the bullet does damage or not,
but like I said above, even if it does do damage having the power of the
shot halved is still very nice (as well as cancelling the half armour
bit).

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 6
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:56:49 -0700
>> So your 9M APDS round would hit the Gel Armor 5/3 and would
>> reduce the bullet to a measly 4M (it still penetrates because
>> the base damage is greater the the balistics level of the
>> Gel so now the 4M will not penetrate the Normal Armor
>> so it is now 0M - doing blunt trama. (but now you have a section
>> of the gel armor that is useless/destroyed...) (this is how
>> it works IMHO)
>It depends on whether you compare the Halved Power or the Standard Power
>with the hardened rating to see whether the bullet does damage or not,
>but like I said above, even if it does do damage having the power of the
>shot halved is still very nice (as well as cancelling the half armour
>bit).

actually now that I reread this I don't think this is right.

check out

http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/sr2/nerps/lore/lore5a.html

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 7
From: Walter Stim <wstim%avma27@*************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 15:43:39 CDT
The Digital Mage said:
>Actually, against Hardened Armour APDS are useless (well almost), they do
>*not* half arrmour, in fact their *power* is reduced by half (I think).
>Check out the firearms against vehicles bit in SR2 combat.
>
>This is also the main reason why anyone would buy Gel armour and use it
>on anything less than armour with Ballistics:6 (so they can stop Light
>pistols, as well as HOs, dead). Have some guy with a gel treated Armour
>Jacket (5/3 count as hardened) get shot by someone with a Ares Pred II
>firing APDS (normally 9M and halve armour). As the gel armour is hardened
>the APDS is at half Power ie 5 (if the GM is generous and allows to round
>up) this Power only equals and does not *exceed* the armour jacket's 5
>ballistics, and so the bullet just bounces off :)
>
>So heres the lesson boys and girls, if you've doen your legwork well and
>you've found out your opponent packs APDS as standard, then wear Gel
>treated armour.
>
>Geez, and I thought that Gel armour was useless :)
>
> Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
> http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

If APDS rounds are halved vs hardened armor, what effect do
normal rounds have? APDS are supposed to be "Armor Piercing".
Is this a rules oops? What does everyone thing.

Michael Stim
Message no. 8
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 14:19:37 -0700
>The Digital Mage said:
>>Actually, against Hardened Armour APDS are useless (well almost),
they do
>>*not* half arrmour, in fact their *power* is reduced by half (I think).
>>Check out the firearms against vehicles bit in SR2 combat.
>>
>>This is also the main reason why anyone would buy Gel armour and use it
>>on anything less than armour with Ballistics:6 (so they can stop Light
>>pistols, as well as HOs, dead). Have some guy with a gel treated Armour
>>Jacket (5/3 count as hardened) get shot by someone with a Ares Pred II
>>firing APDS (normally 9M and halve armour). As the gel armour is
hardened
>>the APDS is at half Power ie 5 (if the GM is generous and allows
to round
>>up) this Power only equals and does not *exceed* the armour jacket's 5
>>ballistics, and so the bullet just bounces off :)
>>
>>So heres the lesson boys and girls, if you've doen your legwork
well and
>>you've found out your opponent packs APDS as standard, then wear Gel
>>treated armour.
>>
>>Geez, and I thought that Gel armour was useless :)
>>
>> Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
>> http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
>
>If APDS rounds are halved vs hardened armor, what effect do
>normal rounds have? APDS are supposed to be "Armor Piercing".
>Is this a rules oops? What does everyone thing.
>
>Michael Stim

Yes I believe I spoke too soon...
I'll investigate tonight and correct myself tomorrow.

Sorry
Gary.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 11:06:07 +0200
>If APDS rounds are halved vs hardened armor, what effect do
>normal rounds have? APDS are supposed to be "Armor Piercing".

Normal rounds simply bounce off if the hardened armor's rating is equal to
or greater than the Power Level of the round.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Leave the making of mistakes to the government
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 10
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: SV: Re: Trolls/Dermal Armor
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 11:34:15 BST
As far as I'm concerned, "half the power when APDS is used against
hardened armour" must be a mistake, surely yhey meant "half the
armour". However, it hasn;t been mnetioned in any errata I've
seen... yet.

It appears to make APDS worse at penetrating hardened armour
than regular rounds are.....

Unless of course you use the suggestion that it's half power, but
the armour is no longer halved (?, where did that come from?).


Someone really ought to ask our new DLoh about this... If we knew
whther he had a AOL account yet (carl@***.com anybody).

Phil (Renegade)

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