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Message no. 1
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:52:27 +0000
On 8 Mar 98 at 6:24, Fade wrote:


> That a monosword isn't as nasty as the monofilament whip is ok. It's
> not as dangerous to use either... what I'm curious about is why
> noone's managed to come up with a better sword than the katana... or
> even an equally good one? Is the Katana so superior? Logic says no.
> Logic also says designing SWORDS isn't a high priority for most
> corps, of course... :)

Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6. But would a runner be stupid enough to
carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and
start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes
in his chest. Hmmmm...
Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 2
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:29:39 -0500
>Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
>swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
>PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6. But would a runner be stupid enough to
>carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and
>start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes
>in his chest. Hmmmm...
>Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

Hmmm the best answer would be to say it's an advantage in melee combat. But
it has more to do with a couple of things.

One: Swords are still perceived as the ultimate expression of person to
person combat. It's very rare to see someone use a axe or a hammer in a movie.

Two: They're quiet. A sword is definitely quieter than a gun any day of the
week and most sec guards aren't equipped to deal with it.

Three: Style. Nuff said.

Four: The old AD&D mentality.

Five. The martial arts mentality. I am a weapon I do not need a gun. Which
goes along with the mentality of a ex-player of mine who tried to tell me
only a ninja can kill a ninja. With is why it's pretty funny that it was
London bobbies who beat the snot out of him.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 3
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:45:27 +0000
On 8 Mar 98, Zixx disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

[...]
> Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme
> number of swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are
> always at least two PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6. But would a
> runner be stupid enough to carry a sword with him/her? I mean I
> could take out 1,5 meters of steel and start bashing at some
> sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes in his chest.
> Hmmmm... Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with
> him?

Well, first, your Predator is not going to be very effective against
that fire elemental. Then, your sword is not going to be much better,
but at least you'll fry trying. (Err. Make that die trying. ;))

Second, physads can be much better with melee weapons than with guns.
Add to that the fact that you can have a sword focus, and not a gun
focus, and well - mages and physads are probably going to have
blades. (Not to mention the advantage one gets in astral.)

As for sammies - well, there's the "samurai" mentality. Of course, my
players realised by now that guns are better, and the team sammie
has no melee weapons skill to speak of (he has Street Etiquette and
Negotiation, though. How sensible of him. ;>).

Oh, and swords are not really that quiet. The odds of felling a guard
with one sword-stroke, as opposed to a silenced headshot with
subsonic ammo, are pretty low. And if you don't kill kim with one
strike, he can SCREAAAAAAM!!!!


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
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Nudists are people who wear one-button suits.
Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:55:34 +0000
In article <199803081947.UAA30128@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
>swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
>PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6. But would a runner be stupid enough to
>carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and
>start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes
>in his chest. Hmmmm...
>Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

It's quiet?

It doesn't jam?

It doesn't run out of ammo at an inopportune moment?

It looks cool?

Hey, I don't know, but I like swords too :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:53:27 -0500
On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> Oh, and swords are not really that quiet. The odds of felling a guard
> with one sword-stroke, as opposed to a silenced headshot with
> subsonic ammo, are pretty low. And if you don't kill kim with one
> strike, he can SCREAAAAAAM!!!!
>

You don't watch that much Highlander, do you?

-Just curious...
Message no. 6
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:15:59 -0600
> Hey, I don't know, but I like swords too :)

So do I, and not all swords are 2 handed.You can use a katana with one
hand.And what about That Daisho thingie(yes I read 2XS ;^]
--
What are you Bulking up to? Fatass? Superfatass? -Southpark kids
Message no. 7
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 03:42:01 +0000
On 8 Mar 98, Jonathan Andrews disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

[...]
> > Oh, and swords are not really that quiet. The odds of felling a guard
> > with one sword-stroke, as opposed to a silenced headshot with
> > subsonic ammo, are pretty low. And if you don't kill kim with one
> > strike, he can SCREAAAAAAM!!!!

> You don't watch that much Highlander, do you?

Well, no. I usually try to avoid any series based on a movie.

Still, in the movies you don't see Our Heroes (TM) decapitating
opponents with the first strike, now do we?

;P

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
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THIS IS THE AGE OF THE TRAIN - it takes an age to catch one.
Message no. 8
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:23:20 PST
>Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme
number of
>swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least
two
>PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6. But would a runner be stupid enough
to
>carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel
and
>start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few
holes
>in his chest. Hmmmm...
>Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

Remember, NEVER try to inject realism into Shadowrun, especially when
it involves the PCs. :)
You have to remember that alot of Shadowrun players started out on
AD&D, and so it's only natural they'd want to try and be "unique" in
using a sword.
I'm all for it if you have an adequet background or reasoning for
carrying such a weapon(such a troll would call a katana a toothpick<G>).
There's also stigma of tradition that comes with certain crime
organizations*couYAKSgh*.
However, if a "sam" is always carrying a sword with him to look
tough, I figure a few hassles from the Star usually stops 'em from
trying to clutch to AD&D :)



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"And all I lov'd, I lov'd alone."
-E.A. Poe


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Message no. 9
From: --Odd-- <mikes@*****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 01:56:47 +0200
:One: Swords are still perceived as the ultimate expression of person to
:person combat. It's very rare to see someone use a axe or a hammer in a
movie.
:
:Two: They're quiet. A sword is definitely quieter than a gun any day of the
:week and most sec guards aren't equipped to deal with it.
:
:Three: Style. Nuff said.
:
:Four: The old AD&D mentality.
:
:Five. The martial arts mentality. I am a weapon I do not need a gun. Which
:goes along with the mentality of a ex-player of mine who tried to tell me
:only a ninja can kill a ninja. With is why it's pretty funny that it was
:London bobbies who beat the snot out of him.


Six-- Magic. Most magical spirits and elementals etc can only be hit
with something connected to the person...

--Odd--
The --Odd-- Page: http://home.pix.za/ms/ms74
-The only reason that time exists is because the human mind is too limited
to comprehend infinity-
Message no. 10
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 02:44:00 -0700
At 03:42 09/03/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Still, in the movies you don't see Our Heroes (TM) decapitating
>opponents with the first strike, now do we?

If you don't see it in the movies, it probably happens in real life.

If you see it in the movies, it probably doesn't happen in rea life.
:)

-Adam J
"That's what I like about these high school girls. I get older, they stay
the same age."
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun
-- "Are you worried about your faith? Kneel down and obey."
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:48:13 +0100
Zixx said on 20:52/ 8 Mar 98...

> Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
> swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
> PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6.

Not in the group I play with. The shaman has a staff with a hidden sword
in it, but uses it mainly as an ace in the hole, since he tries to stay
out of fights because he's mostly useless with any weapon. OTOH my ganger
uses nunchakus and knives, and is pretty good with them, but prefers to
shoot people with his SMG. I don't think anyone else is really into melee
weapons, let alone swords.

> But would a runner be stupid enough to carry a sword with him/her? I
> mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and start bashing at some
> sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes in his chest.
> Hmmmm...

Sounds like what I'd do too. (Of course I tried getting useful info out of
three women sitting in front of a tent on a certain medieval-like
metaplane by shooting between their feet with a Manhunter...)

> Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

"Because it looks cool!" :) Probably the easiest solution is to have
guards shoot anyone who appears to be carrying a sword before the sam gets
in range to use the thing...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I want to see the ground give way, I want to watch it all go down.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 12
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:36:22 +0000
On 9 Mar 98, Adam J disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

[...]
> If you don't see it in the movies, it probably happens in real life.
>
> If you see it in the movies, it probably doesn't happen in rea life.
> :)

Hmmm... I've got no problem with the second statement, but the first
one... well, in the movies you don't see me flying around and killing
people. ;>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
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If the French won't buy our lamb we won't use their letters.
Message no. 13
From: AirWisp <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:41:20 EST
In a message dated 98-03-08 14:50:32 EST, you write:

> Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
> swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
> PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6. But would a runner be stupid enough to
> carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and
> start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes
> in his chest. Hmmmm...
> Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

The difference lies entirely in the situation that either weapon is to be used
in ... at distances beyond 3+ meters most melee weapons are useless, whereas a
gun is not ... now try and use the gun to pistol whip someone who has a sword,
not a very bright idea ...

There is also something to say about someone carrying a sword ... it shows
that the person is not afraid of going toe-to-toe with somebody in melee
combat ... and when you are inside a corp facility trying to get somewhere and
the firing of guns is not an option, then the sword is something wonderful ...

Mike
Message no. 14
From: "Simon.M" <Simon.M@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:49:45 -0000
> Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number
of
> swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
> PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6.

Well, most of the runners in my campain(including my own) use mele weapons
just as much or even more than firearms. In our campain the runners have
been going along for a LONG time and have pritty high strength. High enough
to have superior damage with mele weapons than ranged.

> But would a runner be stupid enough to carry a sword with him/her? I
> mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and start bashing at some
> sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes in his chest.
> Hmmmm.

If your 1.5 meters away from him and he is swinging a punch at you what
would you prefer to have in your hand? A gun that could shoot you just as
easily in a grapple or a simple knife?

> Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

Yeah, and i'm sure he doesn't have a gun as well...


_____________________________________________________
Simon.M@**********.com - Many Names.
Lucifer@**********.com - No True Lord.

* Origin: ChaosBox: Nothing is true -> all is allowed... (2:243/2)
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:16:10 -0700
Zixx wrote:
/
/ Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
/ swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
/ PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6.

None of the PCs in my group carry a sword. I'm just lucky I guess :)

/ But would a runner be stupid enough to
/ carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and
/ start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes
/ in his chest. Hmmmm...
/ Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

It's a strength based weapon. If you're a Sam with strength
enhancements then a sword is a good fall back in case you run out of
ammo. If you're a troll with bio-enhanced strength, wired reflexes
and a dikoted sword... can you say quisenart? (and can you tell me
how to spell it ;)

And it's an image thing. Its the samurai in Street Samurai.

-David
--
"The best way to cheer yourself is to try to cheer somebody else up."
- Mark Twain
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 16
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:05:00 GMT
/ Which brings me to a question: Is anyone else noticing an extreme number of
/ swordfighters in their group? In my group, there are always at least two
/ PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6.

Hm.. in my group there's currently one and a half.. one swordfighter expert,
and one physad who appears to be planning to use a sword. (Started with no
tech and hasn't gotten one yet. Appears to be borrowing my knife all the time
for some reason.). One has 10 skill, the other 6-7 somewhere... and archery
12. Somehow, I don't think they realize we're in the 21th century.
The archer is an elf with a serious tolkien fetish. (The inspiration was, of
all things, a certain G2 rare green 3rd edition card in a certain card game.
The prize goes to whoever guesses which. :).

/ But would a runner be stupid enough to
/ carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and
/ start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes
/ in his chest. Hmmmm...
/ Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

They may if they want, I see no reason to disallow it. But it's not something
you do for efficiency, that's for sure. With a concealability of your average
assault rifle (Albeit not quite as illegal) it's an unsubtle weapon. It's
subtler in its use, not being as noisy, but if you get to attack from a
surprise/sneak position, a sword is overkill anyway, and if you don't, quiet
only counts if the target for some reason doesn't yell.

That's a few 'why not'. Hm. Why?

As a few has pointed out, it's the 'Samurai' in street samurai. And once
someone is poking a sword or knife at you, fighting them with a similar weapon
appears the best solution. And lastly, swords can be tremendously potent
weapons with a little(or a lot of) magic.

(The 'my knife' comment above.. I play a merc. He has a big knife. (Cougar
fineblade.). He has no armed combat skill - uses it to cut things, mostly, not
people.).

--
Fade, runefo@***.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 17
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:04:42 -0800
> Zixx wrote:
> / Which brings me to a question: Is anyone
else noticing an extreme number of
> / swordfighters in their group? In my group,
there are always at least two
> / PCs that have edged-weapons at 4-6.
>
> None of the PCs in my group carry a sword.
I'm just lucky I guess :)
>
> / But would a runner be stupid enough to
> / carry a sword with him/her? I mean I could
take out 1,5 meters of steel and
> / start bashing at some sec-guard, or draw my
Predator and make a few holes
> / in his chest. Hmmmm...
As was said before by someone else, (sorry
I couldn't remember who, I have only 1 hour to
go through my mail each day.) a sword is a hell
of a lot quieter than a gun and it doesn't ruin
armor or the sec guard as bad if the strike is
done correctly, i.e. a quiet slash across the
throat or a simple stab through the heart. When
your done, you could prop the guard as if he/she
simply fell asleep at their station.
> / Why would Sam the sam carry a damn
two-handed sword with him?
INTIMIDATION!!!
> It's a strength based weapon. If you're a Sam
with strength
> enhancements then a sword is a good fall back
in case you run out of
> ammo. If you're a troll with bio-enhanced
strength, wired reflexes
> and a dikoted sword... can you say quisenart?
(and can you tell me
> how to spell it ;)
Also, a sword can be used as a good
surprise melee weapon. No one really expects
people to still practice swordfighting in 205x
with all the guns and other drek that is so
readily available. So if your a guard and you
see some runner carrying a blade while you have
a gun, cocky arrogance and what-not is going to
reign supreme in his mind and not the dermal
armor or armored clothes the runner is wearing.
> And it's an image thing. Its the samurai in
Street Samurai.
Another reason is that swords are still one
of the best melee weapons aroound. A skilled
person can use it to slash/stab most of their
opponents, it can be used to parry other melee
attacks and possibly missile fire (though who
would be armed with a bow or none-such is beyond
me), and skilled sword-users can actually try to
defend themselves versus elementals and spirits.
I myself practice kendo (Katori Shinto Ryu
school for almost 10 years), and I love the
sword. A good swordsperson can be a very
effective runner and fighter if they use all of
the advantages that they have. Melee reach,
willpower attacks vs. elementals and/or spirits,
close-quater combat advantage, stealth, speed,
strength, and if they really lucky have an
enchanted blade. Read Steel Rain and you can
see how, well for lack of a better term "crack",
a swordfighter can be.

-P.H.Y. a.k.a. Bushidoboy @**********.com/
====={===================>
"HIIIYYYAAAAAAAA"


_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 18
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:10:03 +0000
On 9 Mar 98, David Buehrer disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

[...]
It's a strength based weapon. If you're a Sam with strength
> enhancements then a sword is a good fall back in case you run out of
> ammo. If you're a troll with bio-enhanced strength, wired reflexes
> and a dikoted sword... can you say quisenart? (and can you tell me
> how to spell it ;)

Cuisinart.

> And it's an image thing. Its the samurai in Street Samurai.

Hmmm... One more thing - a sword (particularly a katana, with all the
associated imagery) is a VERY effective weapon in the Barrens and
other such areas. It has a large intimidation factor, and while
gunfire may attract some curiosity from local gangs, screams and
melee combat probably won't.

In short - it's good for fending off stupid punks that want your
money (This is not a knife. THIS is a knife. <pulls out a katana>),
and large packs of ghouls without running out of ammo. (Stand against
a wall, preferably two or three of you, and hack away.)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Time is the best teacher; unfortunately, it kills all its students.
Message no. 19
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:44:04 +0100
At 08:16 09/03/1998 -0700, you wrote:
<SNIPPA!>
>
>And it's an image thing. Its the samurai in Street Samurai.
***
I'd say it's gone beyond the image thing to tradition. They're called street
_Samurai's_ for a reason after all.. ;) Makes them easier to pick out of a
crowd
(except for the dermal armor, cyberware, bloody big gunz.... oh nevermind..;))

-Jod
chatin@*******.nl
http://www.euronet.nl/users/chatin/index.htm
IDM
Male
Protector of the 'Roo
Message no. 20
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:10:31 +0000
On 8 Mar 98 at 15:29, NightLife wrote:

> >Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?
>
> Hmmm the best answer would be to say it's an advantage in melee combat. But
> it has more to do with a couple of things.

Quite frankly: Melee combat is why I carry a heavy pistol. Remember
"Raiders of the lost arc"? :)

> One: Swords are still perceived as the ultimate expression of person to
> person combat. It's very rare to see someone use a axe or a hammer in a movie.

But SR is not Braveheart. I mean it's a cyberpunk-game with a lot of
SINless folks that - at times - would kill for a burger fighting for
survival. Not actually the guys I'd expect to carry a sword (note: I'm not
speaking of physads here)

> Two: They're quiet. A sword is definitely quieter than a gun any day of the
> week and most sec guards aren't equipped to deal with it.

Get a good silencer. Or a simple knife.

> Three: Style. Nuff said.

Hehehe...

> Four: The old AD&D mentality.

Next thing you tell me's that SR-characters are heros. :)

> Five. The martial arts mentality. I am a weapon I do not need a gun.

Then why do you have that smartlink?



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 21
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:10:31 +0000
On 8 Mar 98 at 23:55, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?
>
> It's quiet?

As Mike said: Only if you manage to take the head off with the first blow.

> It doesn't jam?

Have you ever tried to run through a hallway with a two-hander in your
hands?

> It doesn't run out of ammo at an inopportune moment?

Neither does my combat-knife. And it's not even 1,5m long.

> It looks cool?

Just imagine how cool you look being gunned down by a decker as you try to
attack him with your claymore.

> Hey, I don't know, but I like swords too :)

But would you take one to your friendly friday evening shadowrun?


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 22
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:10:31 +0000
On 8 Mar 98 at 22:45, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

> On 8 Mar 98, Zixx disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
> writing:

> > Hmmmm... Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with
> > him?
>
> Well, first, your Predator is not going to be very effective against
> that fire elemental. Then, your sword is not going to be much better,
> but at least you'll fry trying. (Err. Make that die trying. ;))

Oh great. So getting toasted in an extremly stupid swordfight with a
firewall is better then to punch some 10mm holes into it and then run away
as it doesn't seem to work? :)


> Second, physads can be much better with melee weapons than with guns.
> Add to that the fact that you can have a sword focus, and not a gun
> focus, and well - mages and physads are probably going to have
> blades. (Not to mention the advantage one gets in astral.)

Well, physads are not my problem. The native puyallup gang-banger is.

> As for sammies - well, there's the "samurai" mentality.

Well, I've never really seen a sam that lived the bushido.

> Oh, and swords are not really that quiet. The odds of felling a guard
> with one sword-stroke, as opposed to a silenced headshot with
> subsonic ammo, are pretty low. And if you don't kill kim with one
> strike, he can SCREAAAAAAM!!!!

Which is rather likely, as you just removed his left arm...



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 23
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:46:42 +0000
On 9 Mar 98 at 12:48, Gurth wrote:

> Zixx said on 20:52/ 8 Mar 98...

> > But would a runner be stupid enough to carry a sword with him/her? I
> > mean I could take out 1,5 meters of steel and start bashing at some
> > sec-guard, or draw my Predator and make a few holes in his chest.
> > Hmmmm...
>
> Sounds like what I'd do too. (Of course I tried getting useful info out of
> three women sitting in front of a tent on a certain medieval-like
> metaplane by shooting between their feet with a Manhunter...)

Depends on the info you want, actually. ;)))

> > Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?
>
> "Because it looks cool!" :) Probably the easiest solution is to have
> guards shoot anyone who appears to be carrying a sword before the sam gets
> in range to use the thing...

That's what usually happens, yes.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 24
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:07:50 +0000
On 9 Mar 98, Zixx disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

[...]
> > Well, first, your Predator is not going to be very effective against
> > that fire elemental. Then, your sword is not going to be much better,
> > but at least you'll fry trying. (Err. Make that die trying. ;))
>
> Oh great. So getting toasted in an extremly stupid swordfight with a
> firewall is better then to punch some 10mm holes into it and then
> run away as it doesn't seem to work? :)

Hey, I never said carrying swords is a good idea! (Though seriously,
most PC sams I've seen have rather high Willpower... In one-on-one
combat a sammie has pretty good chances of defeating anything less
than Force 6. Of course, who uses Force 4 or 5 elementals anyway? ;>)

[...]
> > As for sammies - well, there's the "samurai" mentality.
>
> Well, I've never really seen a sam that lived the bushido.

Me neither. OK, call this "samurai-wannabe" or "samurai-poser"
mentality.

Anyway, IMC I have no problems with sammies carying swords. They
don't.
(HTH training is another thing entirely, as you don't want to be
defenseless when stripped of your guns and toys.)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
I can see that you have a lot to unlearn. - Hugi
If you are talking about my vulgar instinct for survival, forget it. - Corwin
Message no. 25
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:54:20 +0000
In article <199803092105.WAA29737@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>On 8 Mar 98 at 23:55, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> It's quiet?
>
>As Mike said: Only if you manage to take the head off with the first blow.

A wounded man is audible for a lot less distance than rifle fire. You
can hear rifles for miles on a quiet night, even using blank ammo. A
scream will carry for a lot less.
>
>> It doesn't jam?
>
>Have you ever tried to run through a hallway with a two-hander in your
>hands?

Does a L1A1 with fixed bayonet count? If so, yes. You get used to it
quickly.

>> It doesn't run out of ammo at an inopportune moment?
>
>Neither does my combat-knife. And it's not even 1,5m long.

If I'm fighting in a phonebox then I'll match your knife and raise you
my spurs or razors. If we've got any room to manoeuvre, then reach makes
a _big_ difference, in RL as well as in-game. (One thing SR doesn't
model too well is how reach becomes a _penalty_ in really close
quarters).
>
>> It looks cool?
>
>Just imagine how cool you look being gunned down by a decker as you try to
>attack him with your claymore.

For a lot of deckers, he blows his foot off drawing the gun and I take
his head off to finish the job... :)

Besides - and again it's not an effect the game models well - there's a
visceral effect produced by someone rushing you with cold iron that
really is frightening. Hence the British Army's insistence that troops
assault the enemy position with bayonets fixed.

>> Hey, I don't know, but I like swords too :)
>
>But would you take one to your friendly friday evening shadowrun?

Yes. Not too heavy (half the weight of a pistol) and it outmatches a
knife handily. A sword can be concealed pretty well (4, add +2 for a
concealable holster, add more for a long coat), is more acceptable to
the police (swords don't ricochet, don't negligently discharge, don't
kill too many bystanders) and has a handy psychological effect.

It doesn't _replace_ a firearm, but in the game world it's a handy
supplement to one.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 26
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:55:37 -0500
>As Mike said: Only if you manage to take the head off with the first blow.
>
>> It doesn't jam?
>
>Have you ever tried to run through a hallway with a two-hander in your
>hands?

Yep and it's not as hard as your making it out.

>> It doesn't run out of ammo at an inopportune moment?
>
>Neither does my combat-knife. And it's not even 1,5m long.

And the combat knife is a hell of a lot shorter than a sword. Reach can be a
amazing thing.

>> It looks cool?
>
>Just imagine how cool you look being gunned down by a decker as you try to
>attack him with your claymore.


Which is why you don't use the sword in a gun fight. It has it's place.


>> Hey, I don't know, but I like swords too :)
>
>But would you take one to your friendly friday evening shadowrun?

Yep.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 27
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:02:18 -0500
>Quite frankly: Melee combat is why I carry a heavy pistol. Remember
>"Raiders of the lost arc"? :)

Yep. I also remember when the gun was knocked out of the car in Temple of
Doom and Indy had to use his whip after that.

>> One: Swords are still perceived as the ultimate expression of person to
>> person combat. It's very rare to see someone use a axe or a hammer in a
movie.
>
>But SR is not Braveheart. I mean it's a cyberpunk-game with a lot of
>SINless folks that - at times - would kill for a burger fighting for
>survival. Not actually the guys I'd expect to carry a sword (note: I'm not
>speaking of physads here)


But SR has a whole lot of fantasy elements with medieval european and
japenese influence. It's got knight, paladins, samarui, and ninja. Besides a
ganger aren't the only ones who run the shadows.

>> Two: They're quiet. A sword is definitely quieter than a gun any day of the
>> week and most sec guards aren't equipped to deal with it.
>
>Get a good silencer. Or a simple knife.


Deal with a muzzle flash or a shorter weapon.

>> Three: Style. Nuff said.
>
>Hehehe...


>> Four: The old AD&D mentality.
>
>Next thing you tell me's that SR-characters are heros. :)


Last I checked most player thought of themselves that way. ;)

>> Five. The martial arts mentality. I am a weapon I do not need a gun.
>
>Then why do you have that smartlink?


So you can use the gun better in the "gun" fight.
>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 28
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:06:26 -0500
At 12:02 AM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>So you can use the gun better in the "gun" fight.

Um, if swords are so nifty in the firearm age, why isn't the military still
training with them and using them? The only places you tend to see swords
nowadays are fencing, and collectors.

losthalo
Message no. 29
From: Nexx <Nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:12:24 -0600
> At 12:02 AM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >So you can use the gun better in the "gun" fight.
>
> Um, if swords are so nifty in the firearm age, why isn't the military still
> training with them and using them? The only places you tend to see swords
> nowadays are fencing, and collectors.

A few reasons.
1) Same reason they use automatic weapons. Much easier to teach someone how
to shoot than how to use a sword effectively
2) Military campaigns have to worry about military armor. If a shadowrunner
is regularly running into military-grade armor, he needs a new Johnson.
3) In military terms, an improvised spear (read: rifle with bayonet) is much
more space-efficient, which is important when you're in other lands. Not to
mention a spear is still easier to use than a sword.
4) Which kind of sword? While each kind of rifle is used generally the same
way, you have 3 different swords, you can easily have 6 different fighting
styles.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
ICQ 8108186
************
I often think I would put this belief in magic from me if I could, for I have
come to see or to imagine, in men and women, in houses, in handicrafts, in
nearly all sights and sounds, a certain evil, a certain ugliness, that comes
from the slow perishing through centuries of a quality of mind that made this
belief and its evidences common over the world.
-William Butler Yeats "Magic"
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 30
From: Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:42:40 -0600
/On 8 Mar 98 at 22:45, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

/> On 8 Mar 98, Zixx disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
/> writing:

/> > Hmmmm... Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with
/> > him?
/>
/> Well, first, your Predator is not going to be very effective against
/> that fire elemental. Then, your sword is not going to be much better,
/> but at least you'll fry trying. (Err. Make that die trying. ;))

/Oh great. So getting toasted in an extremly stupid swordfight with a
/firewall is better then to punch some 10mm holes into it and then run
away
/as it doesn't seem to work? :)

I've NEVER lost a fight with a spirit dumb enough to manifest and take
my character on in melee, primarily because he always has something with
reach handy for whacking tham with. I ALMOST lost to big nasty toxic,
but I tied it up long enough for the mage to get his ass in gear and do
his thing. Killing spirits with physical damage makes it harder for
them to be brought back to this world, so is prefered for the ones you
don't want coming back (like that toxic), although I'd use a combat ax
instead of a sword to do it.
There is something to be gained from playing a Samuria with magic theory
skill.

/> Oh, and swords are not really that quiet. The odds of felling a guard
/> with one sword-stroke, as opposed to a silenced headshot with
/> subsonic ammo, are pretty low. And if you don't kill kim with one
/> strike, he can SCREAAAAAAM!!!!

If he's wearing heavy security, a few shots from a silinced HP won't
usually take him out either. Same scream. If you stuck with a bunch of
HP's, and they come after you in heavy armor, one good combat option is
for stronger characters to switch to melee combat, becuase thier Impact
rating is lower, and your power might be as high or higher.

Mongoose
Message no. 31
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:11:24 -0600
Zixx wrote:
>
> On 8 Mar 98 at 15:29, NightLife wrote:
>
> > >Why would Sam the sam carry a damn two-handed sword with him?

This I agree with the Katana or other (long swords) are not well suited
to urban environments.


> > Two: They're quiet. A sword is definitely quieter than a gun any day of the
> > week and most sec guards aren't equipped to deal with it.
>
> Get a good silencer. Or a simple knife.

It would also depend on the type of sword used the Wakizashi (Short
Sword) is a wonderful tool.

> Next thing you tell me's that SR-characters are heros. :)

Can be depends of the flavor of the campaign and the players involved. I
played with one group that the flavor was very much the "Robin Hood"
feeling when we did stuff.

> > Five. The martial arts mentality. I am a weapon I do not need a gun.

Hmmmm is all I can say to this. Martial arts constitute many things and
and guns are not always the answer many times stealth is the order of
the day. Get in and out without anyone the wiser guns even silenced ones
tend to make noise and attract attention. 50 cm of cold rolled steel is
quite effective and very stealthy.

> Then why do you have that smartlink?

> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 32
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:39:37 -0600
losthalo wrote:
>
> At 12:02 AM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >So you can use the gun better in the "gun" fight.
>
> Um, if swords are so nifty in the firearm age, why isn't the military still
> training with them and using them? The only places you tend to see swords
> nowadays are fencing, and collectors.

Blade fighting is still very much a part of the training in many modern
militaries.
Not swords but pole arms in form of bayonet fixed to a rifle. I can see
the flames now for my stating that modern military forces train in pole
arms. A rifle with a fixed bayonet make a very effective footmen's pike
which is has been around for a very long time bronze age tech at best.
Message no. 33
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:07:46 +0000
On 10 Mar 98 at 0:02, NightLife wrote:

> >Quite frankly: Melee combat is why I carry a heavy pistol. Remember
> >"Raiders of the lost arc"? :)
>
> Yep. I also remember when the gun was knocked out of the car in Temple of
> Doom and Indy had to use his whip after that.

So? If the whip had been knocked out of the car, he would have used the
gun.

> >> One: Swords are still perceived as the ultimate expression of person to
> >> person combat. It's very rare to see someone use a axe or a hammer in a
> movie.
> >
> >But SR is not Braveheart. I mean it's a cyberpunk-game with a lot of
> >SINless folks that - at times - would kill for a burger fighting for
> >survival. Not actually the guys I'd expect to carry a sword (note: I'm not
> >speaking of physads here)
>
>
> But SR has a whole lot of fantasy elements with medieval european and
> japenese influence. It's got knight, paladins, samarui, and ninja. Besides a
> ganger aren't the only ones who run the shadows.

Well, - again - I was talking about regular shadow-folk.

> >> Two: They're quiet. A sword is definitely quieter than a gun any day of the
> >> week and most sec guards aren't equipped to deal with it.
> >
> >Get a good silencer. Or a simple knife.
>
>
> Deal with a muzzle flash or a shorter weapon.

Silencer make the muzzle flash a lot less visible. And to be realistic: You
won't have to fence with your sword. Except for the Red Samurai, NO guard
carries a sword.

> >> Four: The old AD&D mentality.
> >
> >Next thing you tell me's that SR-characters are heros. :)
>
> Last I checked most player thought of themselves that way. ;)

I guess they are in the wrong game then. :)

> >> Five. The martial arts mentality. I am a weapon I do not need a gun.
> >
> >Then why do you have that smartlink?
>
> So you can use the gun better in the "gun" fight.

And when do you enter a "sword"-fight in a SR-game? When all the guys from
Knight Errant suddenly put down thier Alphas and start behaving as if they
were in some cheap chinese movie?


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 34
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:07:46 +0000
On 9 Mar 98 at 23:55, NightLife wrote:

> >> It doesn't jam?
> >
> >Have you ever tried to run through a hallway with a two-hander in your
> >hands?
>
> Yep and it's not as hard as your making it out.

Depends on the hallway, I guess. :)

> >> It doesn't run out of ammo at an inopportune moment?
> >
> >Neither does my combat-knife. And it's not even 1,5m long.
>
> And the combat knife is a hell of a lot shorter than a sword. Reach can be a
> amazing thing.

Oh well. We were talking about taking them out as long as they didn't see
you. As soon as they see you're not seen, the range doesn't matter. And as
soon as you are seen, the other people will fire at you.

> >> It looks cool?
> >
> >Just imagine how cool you look being gunned down by a decker as you try to
> >attack him with your claymore.
>
> Which is why you don't use the sword in a gun fight. It has it's place.

In SR? C'mon. When do you had your last swords-only-fight in 205x? I mean
there are guns and one guy with an AR can take down 20 with swords.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 35
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:07:46 +0000
On 9 Mar 98 at 22:54, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >On 8 Mar 98 at 23:55, Paul J. Adam wrote:
> >> It's quiet?
> >
> >As Mike said: Only if you manage to take the head off with the first blow.
>
> A wounded man is audible for a lot less distance than rifle fire. You
> can hear rifles for miles on a quiet night, even using blank ammo. A
> scream will carry for a lot less.

Well, I think that's why god invented the silencer/supressor. :)

> >> It doesn't jam?
> >
> >Have you ever tried to run through a hallway with a two-hander in your
> >hands?
>
> Does a L1A1 with fixed bayonet count? If so, yes. You get used to it
> quickly.

If you can get used to it, it doesn't. :)
In the town I live in, there's a fortress (the "Sparrenburg", yeah!:)) and
there are mediavel (sp?) festivals every year. Among other things, they do
fights and sometimes LARP. Anyway, about every year some swordfighter with
a twohanded-sword gets stuck in the tower. These things are just to big,
bulky and heavy for anything other than an open battlefield.

> >> It looks cool?
> >
> >Just imagine how cool you look being gunned down by a decker as you try to
> >attack him with your claymore.
>
> For a lot of deckers, he blows his foot off drawing the gun and I take
> his head off to finish the job... :)

Geeee...if that's true, lock him in his room till the run is over. :)

> Besides - and again it's not an effect the game models well - there's a
> visceral effect produced by someone rushing you with cold iron that
> really is frightening. Hence the British Army's insistence that troops
> assault the enemy position with bayonets fixed.

And another thing that's not well modeled: Try running around with 15kg of
steel on your back. Additional to your combat gear.

> >> Hey, I don't know, but I like swords too :)
> >
> >But would you take one to your friendly friday evening shadowrun?
>
> Yes. Not too heavy (half the weight of a pistol) and it outmatches a
> knife handily.

Exuse me? Half the weight of a pistol? What kind of sword are you talking
about?

> A sword can be concealed pretty well (4, add +2 for a
> concealable holster, add more for a long coat),

Ever tried concealing a long-sword? I did. Even with a long-coat it's
totally impossible.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
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R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++ e>+++++(*)
h! r--
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Message no. 36
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:12:02 -0500
At 12:06 AM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:02 AM 3/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>So you can use the gun better in the "gun" fight.
>
>Um, if swords are so nifty in the firearm age, why isn't the military still
>training with them and using them? The only places you tend to see swords
>nowadays are fencing, and collectors.


Simple. When swords fell out of favor as did armor nobody bothered to keep
the techniques for making them. On top of that when the battle field changed
After the Civil War in America where repeating firearms came into the
battlefield changed. No longer was it man to man fighting but distance
fighting with firearms. It wasn't until the trenches of WW1 did the
recognize the need for a HTH weapon so the knife was reworked and introduced
for trench fighting. But for the most part its still fighting at a distance.
In SR a lot of HTH goes on as taking down sec guards requires a silent
method and a pistol isn't always the best choice. Especially if one fancies
themselves a martial artist.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 37
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:26:03 -0500
>> >Quite frankly: Melee combat is why I carry a heavy pistol. Remember
>> >"Raiders of the lost arc"? :)
>>
>> Yep. I also remember when the gun was knocked out of the car in Temple of
>> Doom and Indy had to use his whip after that.
>
>So? If the whip had been knocked out of the car, he would have used the
>gun.

Ok what if time. So what does Indy do after he's out of ammo?

>Well, - again - I was talking about regular shadow-folk.

So phy adpets and other martial artist aren't "regular" shadow-folk?

>Silencer make the muzzle flash a lot less visible. And to be realistic: You
>won't have to fence with your sword. Except for the Red Samurai, NO guard
>carries a sword.


No but how often does he carry a stun baton a HTH weapon. Unless people
started throwing their batons.


>I guess they are in the wrong game then. :)

What game should they play then?

>And when do you enter a "sword"-fight in a SR-game? When all the guys from
>Knight Errant suddenly put down thier Alphas and start behaving as if they
>were in some cheap chinese movie?


No but they do run the chance of surprising a guard. Or running out of ammo,
or the gun jambs, water get in the ammo....etc, all sorts of different
things can go wrong or change when a melee weapon might be needed. For the
above idea why do the police carry a baton on duty in the age of firearms?
Simple, melee happens, a gun isn't always necessary or desireable so
somebody is going to carry a back up be it a sword, a baton or a machete.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 38
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:31:49 -0500
>Depends on the hallway, I guess. :)

>Oh well. We were talking about taking them out as long as they didn't see
>you. As soon as they see you're not seen, the range doesn't matter. And as
>soon as you are seen, the other people will fire at you.

You're maiking the assumption that you already haven't reached HTH
distances. I'm taling about differnt situations. But they only one you seem
to acknowledge is down range. I guess you character's never had to enage in HTH.


>In SR? C'mon. When do you had your last swords-only-fight in 205x? I mean
>there are guns and one guy with an AR can take down 20 with swords.

Depends it the distnace is too far to cover. If a fight is person to person
then the guy with at AR could be in a whole lot of trouble. If it's
downrange then the distnace weapon wins every time. But then again the only
situatuion we're allowed to think of here has been downrange.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 39
From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:35:42 -0500
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Zixx wrote:

> > Sounds like what I'd do too. (Of course I tried getting useful info out of
> > three women sitting in front of a tent on a certain medieval-like
> > metaplane by shooting between their feet with a Manhunter...)
>
> Depends on the info you want, actually. ;)))
>

Sounds like a cool way to pick up a date, neh? After all, an orc street
sam might have some trouble using the standard approaches...

NOTE:this post in no way reflects the views and opinions of him
who posted it...
Message no. 40
From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:00:16 -0500
On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Zixx wrote:

> Exuse me? Half the weight of a pistol? What kind of sword are you talking
> about?
>

Don't know about you, but the only swords I have any experience with are
the Japanese "samurai sword" variety, and they're pretty darned light.
After all, they were designed to be swung around and all that jazz in a
fight--how could they not make 'em light? Unless you're talking about
claymores... Hm. Well, they're pretty light for troll sams! (g)

Humbly (always!)...

Jonathan Andrews
Message no. 41
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:08:10 +0000
On 10 Mar 98, Wafflemiesters disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

[...]
> I've NEVER lost a fight with a spirit dumb enough to manifest and
> take my character on in melee, primarily because he always has

You don't meet a lot of Force 12 elementals, now do you?

Well, neither do I, so I guess it's OK. <grin>

[...]
> If he's wearing heavy security, a few shots from a silinced HP won't
> usually take him out either. Same scream. If you stuck with a

Well, it depends on ammo, and if you can sneak up on him, just aim
carefully and blow his throat off. ;>

> bunch of HP's, and they come after you in heavy armor, one good
> combat option is for stronger characters to switch to melee combat,
> becuase thier Impact rating is lower, and your power might be as
> high or higher.

Well, that's because of the, hmmm, quite peculiar rules SR uses to
determine Power of melee fighters. (So, that cyber-troll with a
katana penetrates armor better than .50 BMG? Oh, boy. ;>)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Carpenters do it with their tools.
Message no. 42
From: Philaims <Philaims@***.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:39:57 EST
In a message dated 98-03-10 16:18:49 EST, you write:

> And another thing that's not well modeled: Try running around with 15kg of
> steel on your back. Additional to your combat gear.

Uhm? 15 kilos? 33 pounds? For a sword? This would be the depleted uranium,
armor piercing two handed sword of doom, I take it? Typical 2 hander weighs
maybe 7 -10 pounds....and wouldn't it, if the guy's using it, by definition be
part of his combat gear?
Message no. 43
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:10:34 +0000
In article <199803102102.WAA29159@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>On 9 Mar 98 at 22:54, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> A wounded man is audible for a lot less distance than rifle fire. You
>> can hear rifles for miles on a quiet night, even using blank ammo. A
>> scream will carry for a lot less.
>
>Well, I think that's why god invented the silencer/supressor. :)

Fine for pistols, okay for SMGs, rather poor for assault rifles. Depends
on what you're using, where you're using it, and how many weapons you
want to carry.

Also, don't forget that guns aren't a guaranteed one-shot kill either,
especially in Shadowrun.

>> Does a L1A1 with fixed bayonet count? If so, yes. You get used to it
>> quickly.
>
>If you can get used to it, it doesn't. :)

Practice makes perfect.

>In the town I live in, there's a fortress (the "Sparrenburg", yeah!:)) and
>there are mediavel (sp?) festivals every year. Among other things, they do
>fights and sometimes LARP. Anyway, about every year some swordfighter with
>a twohanded-sword gets stuck in the tower. These things are just to big,
>bulky and heavy for anything other than an open battlefield.

What sort of two-hander are we talking about? One of those monstrous
"ambush swords" designed to crack field plate armour? Or a Japanese
katana? Remember, FASA's "sword" includes big and nasty knives; the only
"two-handed sword" they have is the katana. Stuff like the claidh heamh
mor are larger and heavier.


Even sticking with Japanese stuff, I'll gladly concede a no-dachi is a
stupid weapon to carry indoors (think of the monster sword Kikuchiyo is
carrying in "The Seven Samurai"). A katana, though, is a pretty handy
weapon. A kukhri is better still.

>> Besides - and again it's not an effect the game models well - there's a
>> visceral effect produced by someone rushing you with cold iron that
>> really is frightening. Hence the British Army's insistence that troops
>> assault the enemy position with bayonets fixed.
>
>And another thing that's not well modeled: Try running around with 15kg of
>steel on your back. Additional to your combat gear.

15kg? What sort of sword are we talking here? Something like a katana
weighs a couple of kilograms.

>> Yes. Not too heavy (half the weight of a pistol) and it outmatches a
>> knife handily.
>
>Exuse me? Half the weight of a pistol? What kind of sword are you talking
>about?

A katana, or an epee, or a kukhri ("larger or more vicious knives" -
show me something more vicious than a kukhri). My kukhri weighs almost
exactly a pound, or half a kilogram. In SR terms that's half a _light_
pistol.

>> A sword can be concealed pretty well (4, add +2 for a
>> concealable holster, add more for a long coat),
>
>Ever tried concealing a long-sword? I did. Even with a long-coat it's
>totally impossible.

What type of blade? A kukhri's not too hard to hide under a jacket, let
alone a long coat.

And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 44
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:20:12 +1000
Paul J. Adam writes:
>What type of blade? A kukhri's not too hard to hide under a jacket, let
>alone a long coat.


Analogy to the kukhri in SR: the Cougar Fine-Blade (long version).

>And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
>from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.


Not any more... didn't they disband the Gurkhas? (Okay, there are some
ex-soldiers from Nepal...)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 45
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:39:18 GMT
On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:55:37 -0500, NightLife wrote:

> >> It doesn't run out of ammo at an inopportune moment?
> >
> >Neither does my combat-knife. And it's not even 1,5m long.
>
> And the combat knife is a hell of a lot shorter than a sword. Reach can be a
> amazing thing.

Unfortunately, reach can also be a very bad thing-- SR doesn't model what
happens when a guy with a knife gets *inside* the reach of a guy with a
sword.

A friend of mine witnessed an SCA member that fought with nothing other
than a large shield and a knife. He would continue to push forwards in an
attempt to get inside the range of his opponent's sword. With his shield
in contact with his opponent's body, his knife would sneak out from behind
the shield and stab, stab, stab. It worked quite well, actually :)



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 46
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:32:55 +0000
In article <3.0.3.16.19980310001309.21571cca@**********.com>, losthalo
<losthalo@********.COM> writes
>Um, if swords are so nifty in the firearm age, why isn't the military still
>training with them and using them? The only places you tend to see swords
>nowadays are fencing, and collectors.

My platoon commander won the unit Sword of Honour ;) They ain't dead
yet.

The Light Regiments (the Light Infantry and the Royal Green Jackets)
still refer to bayonets as "swords" - a hangover from the 1800s, where
as skirmishers they used sword-bayonets that were as handy weapons off
the rifle as on it. And the British Army is still quite serious about
the use of the bayonet in close-quarters fighting.


True swords faded away because they were time-consuming to train in the
use of, marked their users out as sniper bait, and once repeating
firearms arrived a more useful weapon was a rifle with bayonet (you can
shoot bad guys, or you can introduce them to something sharp and nasty,
in one handy package).

However, I'd personally class a Gurkha kukhri as "a sword" under SR
rules, and the Gurkhas still carry theirs with deserved pride. The sight
of a Gurkha battalion drawing their blades in the final stages of their
assault led to a rapid Argentinian surrender, in one of the battles
around Stanley.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 47
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:18:50 PST
Please, people. This thread is getting totally pointless and going
nowhere fast. We can bander the pros and cons of using swords until we
are blue in the face (and from the looks of it, some of you have). So
unless you can add something useful to this thread, refrain from
posting, or take it to private email.

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"And all I lov'd, I lov'd alone."
-E.A. Poe


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 48
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:54:18 -0500
On 10 Mar 98 at 19:18, The Vagabond wrote:

> Please, people. This thread is getting totally pointless and going
> nowhere fast. We can bander the pros and cons of using swords until
> we are blue in the face (and from the looks of it, some of you
> have). So unless you can add something useful to this thread,
> refrain from posting, or take it to private email.

I had nothing to do with it.
Really.
Ok, Adam? :)

--


-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes you're
- drekhead@***.net - | the pigeon, and sometimes
*-GridSec : Enforcer Division-* | you're the statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" | -Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 49
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:08:27 -0500
>Unfortunately, reach can also be a very bad thing-- SR doesn't model what
>happens when a guy with a knife gets *inside* the reach of a guy with a
>sword.
>
>A friend of mine witnessed an SCA member that fought with nothing other
>than a large shield and a knife. He would continue to push forwards in an
>attempt to get inside the range of his opponent's sword. With his shield
>in contact with his opponent's body, his knife would sneak out from behind
>the shield and stab, stab, stab. It worked quite well, actually :)

Actually as some who's spent a fair amout of time in and around the SCA in
the past, I've also dealt with an opponent like that and they're not a
successful as you might think espically against someone like me who prefers
florintine(sp?).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:23:04 +0100
NightLife said on 17:12/10 Mar 98...

> Especially if one fancies themselves a martial artist.

Now you've hit he nail on the head. 99% of the time, it doesn't have
anything to do with being practical or better in some situations -- people
use swords because they look cool. Why else would katana-replicas be
available today? Not because anyone wants to learn kenjutsu, let alone
carry the thing around with them, but because they can tell their friends
"I've got a katana."

And, I might add, they're damn handy implements for threatening an
annoying GM with :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 51
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:23:04 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 11:20/11 Mar 98...

> Not any more... didn't they disband the Gurkhas? (Okay, there are some
> ex-soldiers from Nepal...)

They disbanded one regiment, IIRC. There are still quite a lot of Gurkas
in the British Army.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 52
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:23:03 +0100
Philaims said on 18:39/10 Mar 98...

> > And another thing that's not well modeled: Try running around with 15kg of
> > steel on your back. Additional to your combat gear.
>
> Uhm? 15 kilos? 33 pounds? For a sword?

Perhaps someone left out a decimal point/comma?

> and wouldn't it, if the guy's using it, by definition be part of his
> combat gear?

So you're saying that if something is part of your "combat gear," it's
not subject to the Hauling The Load rules in SRII?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 53
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:14:53 +0000
In article <03de01bd4c8b$d73ce7e0$624811ac@********.mincom.oz.au>,
Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM> writes
>Paul J. Adam writes:
>>And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
>>from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.
>
>Not any more... didn't they disband the Gurkhas? (Okay, there are some
>ex-soldiers from Nepal...)

No. The Gurkhas now have (IIRC) two battalions of their own, against
five previously. The "disbanded" units were used to make up the
establishment of other units: the Parachute Regiment acquired a goodly
number, for instance.

Gurhkas in red berets. Know fear.


There will be Gurkhas in the British Army, for as long as the Nepalese
wish to continue the long and honourable tradition they have
established.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 54
From: Philaims <Philaims@***.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:45:18 EST
In a message dated 98-03-11 06:24:14 EST, you write:

> So you're saying that if something is part of your "combat gear," it's
> not subject to the Hauling The Load rules in SRII?
>
Er. No. Just asking him to clarify his terminology:)
Message no. 55
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:43:38 -0700
At 12:23 11/03/98 +0100, you wrote:

>> and wouldn't it, if the guy's using it, by definition be part of his
>> combat gear?
>
>So you're saying that if something is part of your "combat gear," it's
>not subject to the Hauling The Load rules in SRII?

Oh hell Gurth, you know some people don't have anything But combat gear.

;)

Err..umm.. but we send them to play RIFTS..yeah.. :)

-Adam
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ fro@***.ab.ca
"Now I'm going to come on stage, and nobody is going to fight, because I wear
rented suits and can't be hurt." -- Jerry Springer.
Message no. 56
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:13:02 -0600
Paul J. Adam wrote:
<SNIP>
> >> Does a L1A1 with fixed bayonet count? If so, yes. You get used to it
> >> quickly.
> >
> >If you can get used to it, it doesn't. :)
>
> Practice makes perfect.

I didn't get a bunch of flames on my comment about rifle and bayonet
being a footmen's pike which is something of a shock actually. The
importance of HTH combat is often times overlooked in SR but sometimes
it is the best solution...

<snip>

> >Ever tried concealing a long-sword? I did. Even with a long-coat it's
> >totally impossible.
>
> What type of blade? A kukhri's not too hard to hide under a jacket, let
> alone a long coat.

Would be rather easy actually as would any of the big knives and/or
short swords.

> And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
> from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.

Probably hand you your head for the trouble for that matter.
Message no. 57
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:50:12 +0100
I have a few swords at home, which, when I think about it, might be one
of the reasons for most of the disagreements - a sword isn't a sword.
One of the swords is a museum copy of a viking sword. It's big, brutal, long,
damn heavy, with ok balance. Another is a polish cavalry saber. Light, sharp
point, edge that *might* cut cheese.. a fast, light, elegant weapon. Both is,
basically, swords, both could kill (given a little sharpening) but they are
quite different from each other in how it is intended used.

Many think of swords as the AD&D 'viking' style swords. In Shadowrun I'd think
of most swords as modern swords - small and light enough to be quick, while
long enough to give a significant reach advantage compared to a knife. Probably
a stabbing sword as much as a slashing sword. If someone used a larger, heavier
sword, that is in some cases less effective - I'd like to think there's a
reason why fencing has moved steadily towards lighter, faster weapons.
(Metallurgy is one, though, not just efficiency.). A large two hander would
have both better damage and reach than an epee, but should probably penalize
the combat pool... ((damage level * reach)-str or quickness) for instance,
in style similar to heavy armour..

Just an idea.

--
Fade, runefo@***.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 58
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:12:37 PST
>Many think of swords as the AD&D 'viking' style swords. In Shadowrun
I'd think
>of most swords as modern swords - small and light enough to be quick,
while
>long enough to give a significant reach advantage compared to a knife.

I'm sorry, but I just can't picture a troll with a Strength of 12
weilding a rapier- unless he was picking chuncks of elf out of his
tusks. <g>

Probably
>a stabbing sword as much as a slashing sword. If someone used a larger,
heavier
>sword, that is in some cases less effective - I'd like to think there's
a
>reason why fencing has moved steadily towards lighter, faster weapons.

Yes, but with the above example, it's also all about style and what
is personally comfortable for you. I've seen plenty of huge, burly
fighters in the SCA(who'd a thunk) get their butts kicked in a
fencing-type compitition, but once they had the big bastard or two-hand
sword in their hands, it was clobberin' time.

>(Metallurgy is one, though, not just efficiency.). A large two hander
would
>have both better damage and reach than an epee, but should probably
penalize
>the combat pool... ((damage level * reach)-str or quickness) for
instance,
>in style similar to heavy armour..

I disagree. What if all I learned how to fight with was a bulking
two-handed sword (the MacLoud family sword in "Highlander" springs to
mind)? I should be penelized for using the sword I trained with, but
not a rapier? It's unbalanced... game-wise, I mean. <g>



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"And all I lov'd, I lov'd alone."
-E.A. Poe


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Message no. 59
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 20:33:30 +0100
*Large swords has better damage and reach but has cpool penalty*
> I disagree. What if all I learned how to fight with was a bulking
>two-handed sword (the MacLoud family sword in "Highlander" springs to
>mind)? I should be penelized for using the sword I trained with, but
>not a rapier? It's unbalanced... game-wise, I mean. <g>

Game - wise it deals with that situation by giving you more dice
in the 2-hander due to a skill specialization. Normally you're equally trained
in either. It's a way to give a sword more individuallity - less combat pool
is usually easily outweighed by reach and/or damage advantage, and your
Highlander would still be dangerous with the twohander sword. It's a marginally
better solution than treating the two swords equally, or giving the heavy sword
advantages only.

--
Fade, runefo@***.uio.no
----------------------------------
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 60
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:55:49 -0800
---James Lindsay wrote:
> > And the combat knife is a hell of a lot
shorter than a sword. Reach can be a
> > amazing thing.
> Unfortunately, reach can also be a very bad
thing-- SR doesn't model what
> happens when a guy with a knife gets *inside*
the reach of a guy with a
> sword.
>
> A friend of mine witnessed an SCA member that
fought with nothing other
> than a large shield and a knife. He would
continue to push forwards in an
> attempt to get inside the range of his
opponent's sword. With his shield
> in contact with his opponent's body, his knife
would sneak out from behind
> the shield and stab, stab, stab. It worked
quite well, actually :)
>
Your friend saw what happens when a person
doesn't realize the total effectiveness of
his/her weapon. The knife & shield guy saw how
to defeat his opponents using their "danger
ares" against them. The Roman Empire deafeted
most of their opponents by standing in a sheild
wall and using their gladius' (i.e. short
swords) to stab in-between the gaps in the wall
and in their opponents armor. A big sword with
a sharp edge don't mean jack vs. a highly
trained individual with a good understanding of
weapon design. A swords' 'danger areas" are
it's edge and point (if it has either). If one
can avoid these areas on a sword or use them
against their opponent, they can seriously do
some damage.

-Paul H. Yan a.k.a. Bushidoboy@**********.com
===={==============='
"HHHHIIIIYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAA"

_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 61
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:17:17 +0000
On 10 Mar 98 at 17:31, NightLife wrote:

> >Depends on the hallway, I guess. :)
>
> >Oh well. We were talking about taking them out as long as they didn't see
> >you. As soon as they see you're not seen, the range doesn't matter. And as
> >soon as you are seen, the other people will fire at you.
>
> You're maiking the assumption that you already haven't reached HTH
> distances. I'm taling about differnt situations. But they only one you seem
> to acknowledge is down range. I guess you character's never had to enage in HTH.

Sure. If I *wanted* them to (or: if they wanted to). Basically, if you want
to knock them down (and were not intelligent enough to get a narcoject or
some gel-rounds), you go into HTH-combat. But you don't start a swordfight
when you want to knock them down. If you run into someone, would you put
down your guns, draw your sword and attack, or simply point your gun at the
guy and put a couple of holes into his head?



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 62
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:17:17 +0000
On 10 Mar 98 at 17:26, NightLife wrote:

[Indy and his gun...yeah...it's OT]
> >So? If the whip had been knocked out of the car, he would have used the
> >gun.
>
> Ok what if time. So what does Indy do after he's out of ammo?

He's an action-hero. He doesn't run out of ammo.

> >Well, - again - I was talking about regular shadow-folk.
>
> So phy adpets and other martial artist aren't "regular" shadow-folk?

Well, it could be me, but personally, I consider "regular shadow-folk"
gangers and stuff like that.

> >Silencer make the muzzle flash a lot less visible. And to be realistic: You
> >won't have to fence with your sword. Except for the Red Samurai, NO guard
> >carries a sword.
>
> No but how often does he carry a stun baton a HTH weapon. Unless people
> started throwing their batons.

Countering stun-batons with swords? Kinda over-powered, don't you think?

> >I guess they are in the wrong game then. :)
>
> What game should they play then?

Some "hero"-game. :))



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 63
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:17:17 +0000
On 11 Mar 98 at 0:10, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >Well, I think that's why god invented the silencer/supressor. :)
>
> Fine for pistols, okay for SMGs, rather poor for assault rifles. Depends
> on what you're using, where you're using it, and how many weapons you
> want to carry.
>
> Also, don't forget that guns aren't a guaranteed one-shot kill either,
> especially in Shadowrun.

Basically, I outfit characters based on reality, not on the rules. So OK,
in SR a 10mm doesn't do that much damage. IRL...well, you know better then
I do.


> >In the town I live in, there's a fortress (the "Sparrenburg", yeah!:))
and
> >there are mediavel (sp?) festivals every year. Among other things, they do
> >fights and sometimes LARP. Anyway, about every year some swordfighter with
> >a twohanded-sword gets stuck in the tower. These things are just to big,
> >bulky and heavy for anything other than an open battlefield.
>
> What sort of two-hander are we talking about? One of those monstrous
> "ambush swords" designed to crack field plate armour?

Yup. That's the stuff I see so many runners running around with.

> Or a Japanese katana?

IIRC, the katana is basically a one-handed sword. The No-Dachi is the
two-hander.

> Remember, FASA's "sword" includes big and nasty knives; the only
> "two-handed sword" they have is the katana. Stuff like the claidh heamh
> mor are larger and heavier.

But that's what I'd call a sword.

> Even sticking with Japanese stuff, I'll gladly concede a no-dachi is a
> stupid weapon to carry indoors (think of the monster sword Kikuchiyo is
> carrying in "The Seven Samurai").

Never seen that.

> A katana, though, is a pretty handy
> weapon. A kukhri is better still.

Granted.

> >> Besides - and again it's not an effect the game models well - there's a
> >> visceral effect produced by someone rushing you with cold iron that
> >> really is frightening. Hence the British Army's insistence that troops
> >> assault the enemy position with bayonets fixed.
> >
> >And another thing that's not well modeled: Try running around with 15kg of
> >steel on your back. Additional to your combat gear.
>
> 15kg? What sort of sword are we talking here? Something like a katana
> weighs a couple of kilograms.

As I said. Big chiunks of metal from the dark-ages. :)

> >> Yes. Not too heavy (half the weight of a pistol) and it outmatches a
> >> knife handily.
> >
> >Exuse me? Half the weight of a pistol? What kind of sword are you talking
> >about?
>
> A katana, or an epee, or a kukhri ("larger or more vicious knives" -
> show me something more vicious than a kukhri). My kukhri weighs almost
> exactly a pound, or half a kilogram. In SR terms that's half a _light_
> pistol.

Well, I know a certain two-hander that weights 20kg. THAT's a sword! :))

> >> A sword can be concealed pretty well (4, add +2 for a
> >> concealable holster, add more for a long coat),
> >
> >Ever tried concealing a long-sword? I did. Even with a long-coat it's
> >totally impossible.
>
> What type of blade? A kukhri's not too hard to hide under a jacket, let
> alone a long coat.

About one meter. A long-sword. A short-sword (like the ones the Romans
used) is concealable (though not very effectivly) under a long-coat. But a
jacket's not long enough.

> And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
> from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.

If I get some automatic weapons to show my arguments....:)



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 64
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:17:17 +0000
On 10 Mar 98 at 17:00, Jonathan Andrews wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, Zixx wrote:
>
> > Exuse me? Half the weight of a pistol? What kind of sword are you talking
> > about?
> >
> Don't know about you, but the only swords I have any experience with are
> the Japanese "samurai sword" variety, and they're pretty darned light.

Well, never had any of them in my hand. But a couple of european swords are
damn heavy. As I wrote in another post, swords are not intended to cut, but
to crush (Katanas are supposed to cut, though). So if they are not heavy
enough, they're pretty much useless.

> After all, they were designed to be swung around and all that jazz in a
> fight--how could they not make 'em light?

Well, there is a difference between Highlander and a real swordfight, you
know. :)

> Unless you're talking about
> claymores... Hm. Well, they're pretty light for troll sams! (g)

...and only for trolls...



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 65
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:17:17 +0000
On 10 Mar 98 at 18:39, Philaims wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-10 16:18:49 EST, you write:
>
> > And another thing that's not well modeled: Try running around with 15kg of
> > steel on your back. Additional to your combat gear.
>
> Uhm? 15 kilos? 33 pounds? For a sword? This would be the depleted uranium,
> armor piercing two handed sword of doom, I take it? Typical 2 hander weighs
> maybe 7 -10 pounds....and wouldn't it, if the guy's using it, by definition be
> part of his combat gear?

Depends on your style. I know people who would only take real medieval
metal for any sword. That stuff is heavy. And we were talking about the "I
do it because I'm a real warrior"-approach, I think.
Yeah, modern stuff is lighter, but a sword is not intended to cut things.
Especially not a two-handed one. So less weigth ruins your combat value.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 66
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:47:01 -0500
>> Uhm? 15 kilos? 33 pounds? For a sword? This would be the depleted uranium,
>> armor piercing two handed sword of doom, I take it? Typical 2 hander
>>weighs
>> maybe 7 -10 pounds....and wouldn't it, if the guy's using it, by definition
>>be
>> part of his combat gear?
>
>Depends on your style. I know people who would only take real medieval
>metal for any sword. That stuff is heavy. And we were talking about the "I
>do it because I'm a real warrior"-approach, I think.
>Yeah, modern stuff is lighter, but a sword is not intended to cut things.
>Especially not a two-handed one. So less weigth ruins your combat value.

Whoa! Not intended to cut things? How about a katana? Old medieval
english-type broadswords weren't meant to cut, but there are many
others that are - the katana for instance. Katanas aren't particularly
strong, but they *are* sharp and meant for cutting.

What about rapiers? A 10 pound rapier would be utterly useless - it
needs to be light, strong and sharp. Then there's those big curved
Arab swords (forget what they're called). They slice, not bash.

Basically, people used whatever they had the metallurgy to support.
A broadsword doesn't require any more than the ability to form iron
into a rough bar. A katana requires folding soft iron with good hard
steel. A rapier requires pretty high-quality spring steel. Given a
choice, I'd probably like to have some sort of katana variant (good
for chopping with the edge, slicing with the tip and stabbing) but
with stronger and lighter materials.

James Ojaste
Message no. 67
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:03:52 -0500
>Sure. If I *wanted* them to (or: if they wanted to). Basically, if you want
>to knock them down (and were not intelligent enough to get a narcoject or
>some gel-rounds), you go into HTH-combat. But you don't start a swordfight
>when you want to knock them down. If you run into someone, would you put
>down your guns, draw your sword and attack, or simply point your gun at the
>guy and put a couple of holes into his head?


You don't buy into the samauri honor bit do you? Not statring a sword fight
to knock someone down. Sure you do you hit them with the flat of the blade.
On the note of putting down you guns. Generally the HTH comes when you're
out of ammo, out of options or just feeling macho. What about when you're
under a 0 fatalities job. No bodies, no noise. You're going to have to
engage in melee ar some point. A whacking somebody with a sword or a
baseball bat for that matter is pretty quit compared to the average gun,
even if it's silenced. On a diffrent note, you;ve never heard of two
enforcers just duking it out to see who's better?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 68
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:08:50 -0500
>He's an action-hero. He doesn't run out of ammo.

We're resorting to Bull-logic here. ;)

>Well, it could be me, but personally, I consider "regular shadow-folk"
>gangers and stuff like that.


That's a personal distinction. According to most of the SR I've read ganger
and the like are just gutter trash and not really runner material.


>Countering stun-batons with swords? Kinda over-powered, don't you think?

No, not really.


>Some "hero"-game. :))

What defines a hero game? Maybe you could let palladium know so they can get
heroes unlimited right this time. ;)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 69
From: Wafflemiesters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:24:04 -0600
---James Lindsay wrote:
> > And the combat knife is a hell of a lot
shorter than a sword. Reach can be a
> > amazing thing.
> Unfortunately, reach can also be a very bad
thing-- SR doesn't model what
> happens when a guy with a knife gets *inside*
the reach of a guy with a
> sword.
>

A good point. If you oponets weapon is large enough to hinder him, or
you are obviously inside its range, you should ge "supperior position".
<plug> I wrote an article for shadowland #8 with a bunch of special
combat skills. Fighting inside sombodys reach was one of those skills.
</plug>

> A friend of mine witnessed an SCA member that
fought with nothing other
> than a large shield and a knife. He would
continue to push forwards in an
> attempt to get inside the range of his
opponent's sword. With his shield
> in contact with his opponent's body, his knife
would sneak out from behind
> the shield and stab, stab, stab. It worked
quite well, actually :)
>

I love SCA annecdotes, but AFAIK, there are rules that apply there that
don't in "real life". FREX, you can't grapple, grab you opponets
weapon, or hit him when he's down, AFAIK. Certain weapons are also
rendered cumbersome or inneffective by saftey requirements- spears, I
think, are not easily addapted to fit SCA reqirements and still fight
well.
The genaeral conclusions are good, but specifics might fall down.

Mongoose
Message no. 70
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:12:26 -0500
>Well, never had any of them in my hand. But a couple of european swords are
>damn heavy. As I wrote in another post, swords are not intended to cut, but
>to crush (Katanas are supposed to cut, though). So if they are not heavy
>enough, they're pretty much useless.

You must have handled a dress sword. My two hander come in a 5 lbs. As for
not cutting. Sorry that's just wrong All swords have a edge to cut as well
as crush. Limbs don't get severed by crushing damage.

>Well, there is a difference between Highlander and a real swordfight, you
>know. :)
>> Unless you're talking about
>> claymores... Hm. Well, they're pretty light for troll sams! (g)

Actually the one I had my hands one are pretty light. Weighing only a bit
more than my two-hander.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 71
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:38:36 -0500
At 07:03 PM 3/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>You don't buy into the samauri honor bit do you?

Very few people do, in SR or RL.

Not statring a sword fight
>to knock someone down. Sure you do you hit them with the flat of the blade.
>On the note of putting down you guns. Generally the HTH comes when you're
>out of ammo, out of options or just feeling macho.

I can see a melee weapon as a _backup_, in SR. Spur, razors, bonelacing
(dual purpose :), they're all a lot more concealable than a 'sword'. Add
in switchblades and butterfly knives, for street punks (and the "Orchid" of
ICE's CyberSpace game, a handle with a bunch of blades around it) - they
like melee weapons for intimidation value, so add in baseball bats
(possibly with nails pounded through them), tire irons, lengths of pipe or
chain, etc. And a monifilament whip commands a lot or respect from anyone,
as well as having practical uses, and being concealable. Katanas? Sure,
the Yaks cary them, mostly as a sign of status, though they can prolly use
them, too; but the Yakuza rely primarily on guns, like the intelligent,
ruthless criminals they are. But carrying around a large weapon like a
shortsword or machete? Every weapon you try to stick under that trenchcoat
has to up the chances of being discovered, something SR doesn't model; I
figure you should get a -1 target number to spot weapons on someone for
every add'l weapon or so maybe.

What about when you're
>under a 0 fatalities job. No bodies, no noise. You're going to have to
>engage in melee ar some point. A whacking somebody with a sword or a
>baseball bat for that matter is pretty quit compared to the average gun,
>even if it's silenced.

Whacking someone with a sword without cutting them isn't easy (+2 taret
number), and the baseball bat to the head is asking to accidentally concuss
the guy into a coma, or cause serious brain damage). No the rules don't
model it, but in reality it'd be a concern. A narcoject, or squirt
(loading some knock-out drug) would prolly be more effective for subduing
without killing. Or a taser (that's their function). And if you want a
melee weapon for subdual, try the stun baton. :) **zot** "Oi, he's
trynna get back up again!" **zot**

On a diffrent note, you;ve never heard of two
>enforcers just duking it out to see who's better?

Yeah, but why would my character carry a weapon for that? If I'm a sam, I
hire myself out, I'm a professional. Gangers do stuff like that (and
prolly do carry a nasty melee weapon at all times, too). :)

losthalo
Message no. 72
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 01:13:20 +0000
In article <199803132012.VAA28165@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>On 11 Mar 98 at 0:10, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Fine for pistols, okay for SMGs, rather poor for assault rifles. Depends
>> on what you're using, where you're using it, and how many weapons you
>> want to carry.
>>
>> Also, don't forget that guns aren't a guaranteed one-shot kill either,
>> especially in Shadowrun.
>
>Basically, I outfit characters based on reality, not on the rules.

For PCs, "the rules" are the reality. So IRL a good heavy pistol is a
one-shot-stop... that isn't so in Shadowrun. The game mechanics do have
_some_ influence.

>> What sort of two-hander are we talking about? One of those monstrous
>> "ambush swords" designed to crack field plate armour?
>
>Yup. That's the stuff I see so many runners running around with.

That's a pole arm, not a sword.

>> Or a Japanese katana?
>
>IIRC, the katana is basically a one-handed sword. The No-Dachi is the
>two-hander.

The katana is designed to be used with both hands, but can be managed
with one (the European 'bastard sword' springs to mind). Monsters like
the nodachi or the "ambush sword" _need_ both hands.

>> Remember, FASA's "sword" includes big and nasty knives; the only
>> "two-handed sword" they have is the katana. Stuff like the claidh heamh
>> mor are larger and heavier.
>
>But that's what I'd call a sword.

Really? Look at the "court sword". Fifteen inches of blade. Or the
cutlasses aboard HMS Victory and HMS Warrior (one-handed weapons for
sure). Or FASA's definition of what _they_ call a sword.

I split "swords" into the one-handed fighting blades (FASA definition)
and the two-handed monsters (STR+3 M damage, reach +2, and - house rule
- you better have Strength 5 or better to use it).

>> 15kg? What sort of sword are we talking here? Something like a katana
>> weighs a couple of kilograms.
>
>As I said. Big chiunks of metal from the dark-ages. :)

Thanks, but I'm using a nifty sliver of single-crystal steel made in
2057. I don't take a flintlock to a gunfight and I don't insist on using
ancient and outdated blades.

>> A katana, or an epee, or a kukhri ("larger or more vicious knives" -
>> show me something more vicious than a kukhri). My kukhri weighs almost
>> exactly a pound, or half a kilogram. In SR terms that's half a _light_
>> pistol.
>
>Well, I know a certain two-hander that weights 20kg. THAT's a sword! :))

That's way out of what FASA call a sword. More like a combat axe...

>> What type of blade? A kukhri's not too hard to hide under a jacket, let
>> alone a long coat.
>
>About one meter. A long-sword. A short-sword (like the ones the Romans
>used) is concealable (though not very effectivly) under a long-coat. But a
>jacket's not long enough.

I could hide a kukhri under a jacket, and for sure it's both Reach 1 and
rather alarming in damage. The most monstrous swords are Reach 2
(they're as long as I am tall, and I ain't small), require considerable
strength from the user, and are designed to dismember armoured knights.

>> And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
>> from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.
>
>If I get some automatic weapons to show my arguments....:)

They have assault rifles if you want to debate at longer ranges, and
bayonets and kukhris for close-range squabbles. I don't recall them
losing a fight in living memory.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 73
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:41:37 +0000
On 10 Mar 98 at 22:07, Zixx wrote:

> On 9 Mar 98 at 23:55, NightLife wrote:
>
> > >> It doesn't jam?
> > >
> > >Have you ever tried to run through a hallway with a two-hander in your
> > >hands?
> >
> > Yep and it's not as hard as your making it out.
>
> Depends on the hallway, I guess. :)
>

No it is more a matter how you look at things, if you remember it can
also be used like a short spear (especially if it has that leather
sleave on the blade forward of the guard.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

====================================================
Those who are too intelligent to engage in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 74
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:58:19 +0000
On 13 Mar 98 at 19:03, NightLife wrote:

> >Sure. If I *wanted* them to (or: if they wanted to). Basically, if you want
> >to knock them down (and were not intelligent enough to get a narcoject or
> >some gel-rounds), you go into HTH-combat. But you don't start a swordfight
> >when you want to knock them down. If you run into someone, would you put
> >down your guns, draw your sword and attack, or simply point your gun at the
> >guy and put a couple of holes into his head?
>
>
> You don't buy into the samauri honor bit do you?

Let's say I don't buy into any honor. Especially not in a cyberpunk game.
PC's with high moral standart are not going to get old in a world that has
no other interest then to abuse them.

> Not statring a sword fight
> to knock someone down. Sure you do you hit them with the flat of the blade.

Well, hitting with the flat side sounds good in theory, but IRL a katana
will cut of half of the guys face and a two-handed will smash his skull.
Thank you very much. :)

> On the note of putting down you guns. Generally the HTH comes when you're
> out of ammo, out of options or just feeling macho. What about when you're
> under a 0 fatalities job. No bodies, no noise. You're going to have to
> engage in melee ar some point. A whacking somebody with a sword or a
> baseball bat for that matter is pretty quit compared to the average gun,
> even if it's silenced.

Well, bashing someone down with a baseball bat is not very quiet.
Personally I'd say a narcoject (can they be silenced?) is a bit better, as
they are prbably air-operated

> On a diffrent note, you;ve never heard of two
> enforcers just duking it out to see who's better?

No. At least in my game, noone would be that stupid. No hero/macho-shit in
my game, if you want to survive.


((Damn, I want my keyboard back. This one SUCKS!))

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 75
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:58:19 +0000
On 13 Mar 98 at 19:08, NightLife wrote:

> >Well, it could be me, but personally, I consider "regular shadow-folk"
> >gangers and stuff like that.
>
> That's a personal distinction. According to most of the SR I've read ganger
> and the like are just gutter trash and not really runner material.

Well, runners ARE gutter-trash. If you are so damn hot and got all that
fancy corp/military training, why don`t you sell out to a corp? Much
healthier.

> >Countering stun-batons with swords? Kinda over-powered, don't you think?
>
> No, not really.

A bit like countering stun-rounds with EX-explosives...

> >Some "hero"-game. :))
>
> What defines a hero game?

Basically, a game where the PCs are rolemodels or, well, someone you would
like to be.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 76
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:58:19 +0000
On 13 Mar 98 at 19:12, NightLife wrote:

> >Well, never had any of them in my hand. But a couple of european swords are
> >damn heavy. As I wrote in another post, swords are not intended to cut, but
> >to crush (Katanas are supposed to cut, though). So if they are not heavy
> >enough, they're pretty much useless.
>
> You must have handled a dress sword. My two hander come in a 5 lbs. As for
> not cutting. Sorry that's just wrong All swords have a edge to cut as well
> as crush. Limbs don't get severed by crushing damage.

Sorry NightLife, but when it comes to swords, I believe those folks I know
who practically life in the dark ages.
What you have is a modern sword. Stuff for shows or just decor for the
wall, but no fighting weapon. And the "edge" is because it breaks the bones
better.

> >Well, there is a difference between Highlander and a real swordfight, you
> >know. :)
> >> Unless you're talking about
> >> claymores... Hm. Well, they're pretty light for troll sams! (g)
>
> Actually the one I had my hands one are pretty light. Weighing only a bit
> more than my two-hander.

Try contacting a smith. Someone who specialises in medieval-european
swords. Then take some of his "fighting-style" weapons.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 77
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:58:19 +0000
On 13 Mar 98 at 15:47, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

> >Depends on your style. I know people who would only take real medieval
> >metal for any sword. That stuff is heavy. And we were talking about the "I
> >do it because I'm a real warrior"-approach, I think.
> >Yeah, modern stuff is lighter, but a sword is not intended to cut things.
> >Especially not a two-handed one. So less weigth ruins your combat value.
>
> Whoa! Not intended to cut things? How about a katana? Old medieval
> english-type broadswords weren't meant to cut, but there are many
> others that are - the katana for instance. Katanas aren't particularly
> strong, but they *are* sharp and meant for cutting.

(Damn missed to mention the katana)
Anyway, of course, you're right. But I was more thinking about broadswords,
two-handed swords, long-swords or the all-time favourite executinor-sword.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 78
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:58:19 +0000
On 14 Mar 98 at 1:13, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> >> Also, don't forget that guns aren't a guaranteed one-shot kill either,
> >> especially in Shadowrun.
> >
> >Basically, I outfit characters based on reality, not on the rules.
>
> For PCs, "the rules" are the reality. So IRL a good heavy pistol is a
> one-shot-stop... that isn't so in Shadowrun. The game mechanics do have
> _some_ influence.

Hehehe. That is the reason I rewrote the damage-system....:)

> >> What sort of two-hander are we talking about? One of those monstrous
> >> "ambush swords" designed to crack field plate armour?
> >
> >Yup. That's the stuff I see so many runners running around with.
>
> That's a pole arm, not a sword.

:)

> >> Or a Japanese katana?
> >
> >IIRC, the katana is basically a one-handed sword. The No-Dachi is the
> >two-hander.
>
> The katana is designed to be used with both hands, but can be managed
> with one (the European 'bastard sword' springs to mind). Monsters like
> the nodachi or the "ambush sword" _need_ both hands.

OK, that is a question of definition. Pesonally I would say a two-hander is
a sword that needs two hands. But that is just me.
(Talking about ambush weapons: Lately I have heared a story about some guy
with a giant hammer hitting someone in the chest in a show-fight. the
victim flew back some three meter. His luck he was armored really good.

> >About one meter. A long-sword. A short-sword (like the ones the Romans
> >used) is concealable (though not very effectivly) under a long-coat. But a
> >jacket's not long enough.
>
> I could hide a kukhri under a jacket, and for sure it's both Reach 1 and
> rather alarming in damage.

Reach was one per meter weapon lenght, IIRC.

> >> And if you believe it's obsolete and useless, there are some soldiers
> >> from Nepal who will debate the matter with you.
> >
> >If I get some automatic weapons to show my arguments....:)
>
> They have assault rifles if you want to debate at longer ranges, and
> bayonets and kukhris for close-range squabbles. I don't recall them
> losing a fight in living memory.

OK, ok, I will give them a beer and then sneak away...:)

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

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Message no. 79
From: "<Robert Habenicht>" <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:05:20 +0000
> > You don't buy into the samauri honor bit do you?
>
> Let's say I don't buy into any honor. Especially not in a cyberpunk game.
> PC's with high moral standart are not going to get old in a world that has
> no other interest then to abuse them.

Whatever.


> Well, hitting with the flat side sounds good in theory, but IRL a katana
> will cut of half of the guys face and a two-handed will smash his skull.
> Thank you very much. :)

You've never been trained in using one have you?

> Well, bashing someone down with a baseball bat is not very quiet.
> Personally I'd say a narcoject (can they be silenced?) is a bit better, as
> they are prbably air-operated

Obviously you're never going to run out of ammo and you go to the
bathroom with all you weapons,so there's no point here.

> No. At least in my game, noone would be that stupid. No hero/macho-shit in
> my game, if you want to survive.

whatever.
Message no. 80
From: "<Robert Habenicht>" <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:05:20 +0000
> Sorry NightLife, but when it comes to swords, I believe those folks I know
> who practically life in the dark ages.
> What you have is a modern sword. Stuff for shows or just decor for the
> wall, but no fighting weapon. And the "edge" is because it breaks the bones
> better.

And I know just as many people in the SCA and all my weapons are
functional. In fact I could always renew my membership. As for
the shot about my weapons they are not I repeat are NOT dress
weapons.

> Try contacting a smith. Someone who specialises in medieval-european
> swords. Then take some of his "fighting-style" weapons.

Ok how about the Highlander Artisan. Look it up.
Message no. 81
From: "<Robert Habenicht>" <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:05:20 +0000
> Well, runners ARE gutter-trash. If you are so damn hot and got all that
> fancy corp/military training, why don`t you sell out to a corp? Much
> healthier.

Last I checked a lot of players would argue that statement.

> A bit like countering stun-rounds with EX-explosives...

Whatever.

> Basically, a game where the PCs are rolemodels or, well, someone you would
> like to be.

I'll remember that next time I play Star Wars.
Message no. 82
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:47:41 -0800
> On 13 Mar 98 at 19:12, NightLife wrote:
*Well, never had any of them in my hand. But a
couple of european swords are damn heavy. As I
wrote in another post, swords are not intended
to cut, but to crush (Katanas are supposed to
cut, though). So if they are not heavy enough,
they're pretty much useless.*

If any of you subscribe to a
magazine/catalogue called Mideival Arms Ltd.,
they have a section describing all of their
weapons. Actual Medieval weaponry was comprably
weighty, but not heavy. On average a sword
(1-hnd long or broad) was around 6-7lbs.
Metallurgy wasn't really all that good then, but
generals didn't want their troops carrying huge
15-30lbs blades all day and swinging them during
battle for long periods of time.

*All swords have a edge to cut as well as crush.
Limbs don't get severed by crushing damage.*

Most swords did have an edge, but not a very
good one or sharp one. Limbs can be crushed
off. The force of a 6-7lbs. blade smashing into
your arm at around 10-12 mph (My assumption of
the speed someone can swing a blade around) can
destroy whatever gets in it's way.

-P.H.Y. A.K.A. BUSHIDOBOY@**********.COM
===={===================='

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 83
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: swords (was: Special Forces campaign help)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:44:44 +0000
In article <199803162053.VAA21768@*********.netsurf.de>, Zixx <t_berghof
f@*********.NETSURF.DE> writes
>Try contacting a smith. Someone who specialises in medieval-european
>swords. Then take some of his "fighting-style" weapons.

I did. Fellow based in Ringwood (since moved on) who made weapons for
re-enaction enthusiasts.

Not an ambush sword in sight, his blades were all usable one-handed (the
European-type ones _only_ one-handed) and pretty light.

Take a trip to the Tower of London, and look at the collection there.
"Swords" cover a broad category, from dainty little rapiers you'd hardly
dare eat dinner with up to six-foot-long Landsknecht two-handers
designed to be used as part of a four-man unit.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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