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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Thu Feb 7 17:50:01 2002
<snipping a rather terse correction of a simple misunderstanding involving a
synaptic accelerator>
>
> Ok......I surrender in my incorrectness.....I was going off of a non
> game knowledge approach....synapses are in the brain therefore it's a
> brain aug....oh well....

Synapses are anywhere that a nerve can "connect", whether it is between a
motor neuron and a secondary relay neuron or the multiple connections of
each neuron on the brain (though the connection between a muscle and a nerve
is technically not a synapse, but it functionally acts similar to one). The
"synaptic accelerator", as such, is a misnomer... from the description, it
does not do anything to the synapses at all. In fact, modifying the
millions of synapses in the spinal cord alone would be catastrophic and
ineffective in terms of cost, even with nanites. It increases the
cross-sectional area of the existing nerves, which increases the speed of
transmission, though how this process is done without permanent damage or
any cerebellar retraining is beyond me... I'd think that a person who had
this treatment would manifest symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis, but this is
the doctor in me speaking, not the gamer. The somatic nerves tend to only
have 2 synapses (one "input", one "output"... this doesn't include
nerves
that are involved in reflexes and inhibitory responses) while central
neurons tend to have multiple connections (the connections in the brain are
said to exceed the stars in the universe). While traditionally, science has
held that the neurons in the brain are static and do not change or regrow,
it has been shown recently (and indeed, makes sense) that they are
constantly remodeling and changing (perhaps not replicating).

Ahem, back to SR, the synaptic accelerator is probably the name the biotech
marketing people chose for the augmentation, as opposed to the egghead
scientists that developed it (who probably care less).

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know
that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed."
-G. K. Chesterton
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Tue Feb 19 11:25:02 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: Hahns Shin <Hahns_Shin@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Synapses


> Synapses are anywhere that a nerve can "connect", whether it is between a
> motor neuron and a secondary relay neuron or the multiple connections of
> each neuron on the brain (though the connection between a muscle and a
nerve
> is technically not a synapse, but it functionally acts similar to one).
The
> "synaptic accelerator", as such, is a misnomer... from the description, it
> does not do anything to the synapses at all. In fact, modifying the
> millions of synapses in the spinal cord alone would be catastrophic and
> ineffective in terms of cost, even with nanites. It increases the
> cross-sectional area of the existing nerves, which increases the speed of
> transmission, though how this process is done without permanent damage or
> any cerebellar retraining is beyond me...

Couldn't this be part of the "healing time"? I mean, recovering from
nanosurgery alone probably wouldn't take anytime as I doubt there are many
incisions (if any). I figure it would ammout to the equivilant of Pys Ther.

> I'd think that a person who had
> this treatment would manifest symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis, but this is
> the doctor in me speaking, not the gamer. The somatic nerves tend to only
> have 2 synapses (one "input", one "output"... this doesn't
include nerves
> that are involved in reflexes and inhibitory responses) while central
> neurons tend to have multiple connections (the connections in the brain
are
> said to exceed the stars in the universe). While traditionally, science
has
> held that the neurons in the brain are static and do not change or regrow,
> it has been shown recently (and indeed, makes sense) that they are
> constantly remodeling and changing (perhaps not replicating).

I thought MS was the degredation of the neural wall. I know motor control
is lost in MS patients (which I can see as a symptom) but what about the
increases sensativity? I can hardly see this personally.

> Ahem, back to SR, the synaptic accelerator is probably the name the
biotech
> marketing people chose for the augmentation, as opposed to the egghead
> scientists that developed it (who probably care less).

This is probably true (unless it was writer error). Marketing usually only
cares about "does it sound good? Will it sell?", not "is it
accurate?"

Ahrain
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Tue Feb 19 13:10:01 2002
<snip comment about cerebellar retraining>
>Couldn't this be part of the "healing time"? I mean, recovering from
>nanosurgery alone probably wouldn't take anytime as I doubt there are many
>incisions (if any). I figure it would ammout to the equivilant of Pys Ther.

Well, the problem is that cerebellar retraining is EXACTLY the process one
uses when one learns a somatic "skill", such as riding a bike or playing the
violin. Why do you get better when you practice? Part of it is knowledge and
conscious thought, and part of it is the cerebellum. The cerebellum is the
portion of the brain that redundantly wires and processes conscious
movement. As you repeat a motion, the cerebellum helps you "learn" how to do
an action without thought. Think about throwing a ball... when you first
start doing it, you have to consciously make many "calculations" in each and
every aspect of throwing it. Now think of a cricket player throwing a ball
to a teammate... the repetition now allows the cricket player to perform the
action automatically and with effortless precision. Any change to the
pathway AFTER the brain (read: the spinal cord and motor neuron end plates)
forces the cerebellum to "retune". This is why physical therapy is so
important after catastrophic injury. In other words, it may take MONTHS to
finally do most of the things that you used to do. You have to "get used to
your own body", so to speak.

Of course, neuroscience may have advanced far enough that such cerebellar
retraining may be done through nanotechnology, but I highly doubt that
considering the order of magnitude of corrections that need to be made. It
would be far easier to let the patient work things out on their own in
physical therapy than to mess with it.

> > I'd think that a person who had
> > this treatment would manifest symptoms of Multiple Sclerosis, but this
>is
>I thought MS was the degredation of the neural wall. I know motor control
>is lost in MS patients (which I can see as a symptom) but what about the
>increases sensativity? I can hardly see this personally.
>
Sorry, I should have emphasized the right words. I was saying that it would
resemble the "symptoms" of MS, not manifest MS itself. Of course, Syndromes
are merely collections of symptoms, I guess, but MS has a known cause. The
problem with MS is far greater than mere degeneration of "the neural wall"
(umm, I think you mean demyelination, and that DOES occur, but also in other
diseases such as ALS of Stephen Hawking fame). MS is not diffuse or
discrete, but random in nature. Some nerves demyelinate and degenerate
outright, and others don't. As the disease progresses, some of the
degenerated nerves regenerate while others start degenerating anew. In ALS,
to take another example, it is massive and diffuse degeneration of the motor
neurons only. MS can manifest somatic AND sensory changes, as well as
changes in balance, consciousness, and mental state. The central nervous
system is more often than not affected in addition to peripheral nerves.
Each MS case is unique and requires personalized treatment. It ranges from
mere spasms to premature senility and coma to even Parkinson-like symptoms.

Back to SR, I'm guessing although it may myelinate and expand nerves
completely and as a whole, Synaptic Accelrators would cause atonia and
spasms resembling the somatic form of MS initially. It would take time and
tweaking to finally tune things up to the original physiology. Of course,
this is probably reflected in the surgery time/costs, but every surgery
requires followup (in this case, months). How often would shadowrunners
follow up on their elective procedures before going back to the biz? Would
they even make the effort? Knowing the lack of compliance of patients in the
present day, even when the surgery is an outpatient procedure, makes me
highly doubt that they would. This is why every razorboy MUST have a street
doc contact, whether they want to or not. A walking machine needs the
occasional lube and maintenance, especially one as complex as the human body
and cybernetics.

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon

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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Tue Feb 19 13:25:01 2002
On Tue, 19 Feb 2002, Hahns Shin wrote:

> Well, the problem is that cerebellar retraining is EXACTLY the process one
> uses when one learns a somatic "skill", such as riding a bike or playing
the
> violin.

[SNIP]

> Any change to the pathway AFTER the brain (read: the spinal cord and
> motor neuron end plates) forces the cerebellum to "retune". This is why
> physical therapy is so important after catastrophic injury. In other
> words, it may take MONTHS to finally do most of the things that you
> used to do. You have to "get used to your own body", so to speak.

In my mind, this is what the months of recovery from drastic
invasive surgery represent. Having nanites lay wires down along your main
nerve trunks and hooking it to your brain probably won't cause a lot of
tissue damage, but learning to move again, learning to function at a
"normal" level, and teaching your body to obey your commands the way it
would before the surgery will take time and effort. Hence, whenever you
get a whole mess of wired reflexes installed, you have to recover from a
"deadly" wound. That time is not so much recovery of the body, but
physical therapy and motor re-training.

Marc
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Wed Feb 20 05:00:01 2002
>From: "Hahns Shin" <hahns_shin@*******.com>
><snip comment about cerebellar retraining>
>>Couldn't this be part of the "healing time"? I mean, recovering from
>>nanosurgery alone probably wouldn't take anytime as I doubt there are many
>>incisions (if any). I figure it would ammout to the equivilant of Pys
>>Ther.

My take on this is that because Biotech (particularly synaptic acceleration)
is virtually non-invasive; I see the procedure as an injection of nanites
and modified RNA into the spinal column and major nerve trunks. I would say
that the recovery time is basically rest, physio and a period of modified
diet or IV drip to provide the chemicals the body requires to rebuild the
nerves. The "retraining" time however would be minimal as, unlike wires, the
process is a gradual one, every move you make would be very slightly off
what you would expect, every move a learning experience but so small that
you don't notice. Where wires are a digital change synaptic accelleration is
far more incremental, more analogue and therefore easier to adjust to. If
you've ever read Roald Dahl think about The Twits and Mrs Twits walking
stick, if the change is small enough you adjust to it without noticing.

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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Wed Feb 20 09:20:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: Hahns Shin <hahns_shin@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Synapses


> Sorry, I should have emphasized the right words. I was saying that it
would
> resemble the "symptoms" of MS, not manifest MS itself. Of course,
Syndromes
> are merely collections of symptoms, I guess, but MS has a known cause. The
> problem with MS is far greater than mere degeneration of "the neural wall"
> (umm, I think you mean demyelination, and that DOES occur, but also in
other
> diseases such as ALS of Stephen Hawking fame). MS is not diffuse or
> discrete, but random in nature. Some nerves demyelinate and degenerate
> outright, and others don't. As the disease progresses, some of the
> degenerated nerves regenerate while others start degenerating anew. In
ALS,
> to take another example, it is massive and diffuse degeneration of the
motor
> neurons only. MS can manifest somatic AND sensory changes, as well as
> changes in balance, consciousness, and mental state. The central nervous
> system is more often than not affected in addition to peripheral nerves.
> Each MS case is unique and requires personalized treatment. It ranges from
> mere spasms to premature senility and coma to even Parkinson-like
symptoms.

Sorry, I didn't know you were talking about the somatic symptoms. My sister
has MS in which she has lost motor control of parts of her body, decreased
and increased sensativity, etc. Didn't know every case was that different
though.

> Back to SR, I'm guessing although it may myelinate and expand nerves
> completely and as a whole, Synaptic Accelrators would cause atonia and
> spasms resembling the somatic form of MS initially. It would take time and
> tweaking to finally tune things up to the original physiology. Of course,
> this is probably reflected in the surgery time/costs, but every surgery
> requires followup (in this case, months). How often would shadowrunners
> follow up on their elective procedures before going back to the biz? Would
> they even make the effort? Knowing the lack of compliance of patients in
the
> present day, even when the surgery is an outpatient procedure, makes me
> highly doubt that they would. This is why every razorboy MUST have a
street
> doc contact, whether they want to or not. A walking machine needs the
> occasional lube and maintenance, especially one as complex as the human
body
> and cybernetics.

I beleive this is one of the reasons they have introduced Stress tests to
'ware. It's a little bogging on the upkeep department, but I think was a
needed addition.

Ahrain
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Wed Feb 20 09:25:02 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
Subject: Re: Synapses


> In my mind, this is what the months of recovery from drastic
> invasive surgery represent. Having nanites lay wires down along your main
> nerve trunks and hooking it to your brain probably won't cause a lot of
> tissue damage, but learning to move again, learning to function at a
> "normal" level, and teaching your body to obey your commands the way it
> would before the surgery will take time and effort. Hence, whenever you
> get a whole mess of wired reflexes installed, you have to recover from a
> "deadly" wound. That time is not so much recovery of the body, but
> physical therapy and motor re-training.

Precisely my thoughts. Just not sure on the total healing times on a Deadly
wound (no books at work ;-( ) I think it's close to 6 months with 1
success. Not sure though.

Now this brings up something else. Body is rolled in recovery to reduce the
time. If recovering from something like this, wouldn't it be closer to
Willpower or Intelligence since it's (probably) mostly the body/mind
relearning how to move?

Ahrain
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Wed Feb 20 15:05:01 2002
ACK! So many replies. I get this in digest form, so it takes a while to
"ruminate" on it. (excuse the pun)

<snip>
> would before the surgery will take time and effort. Hence, whenever you
> get a whole mess of wired reflexes installed, you have to recover from a
> "deadly" wound. That time is not so much recovery of the body, but
> physical therapy and motor re-training.
>
> Marc
I wasn't thinking about the actual SR3 rules regarding damage and recovery
when I wrote the original post (the post might have been more useful if I
had... I'll look things up in Man and Machine and perhaps write another
piece). Still, it proves an important justification in the length of
recovery time for surgery. I'd rule that it would take a minimum amount of
months regardless of your Body tests. Otherwise, you'd have shadowrunners
taking flights to Chiba and bopping out in a week. As cool as that would be
for the surgeons (the patient's in and out, and the check is in the mail), I
doubt it would happen. Incidentally, this is why eye surgeons LOVE laser
surgery, because it takes less than an hour to perform, and the patient gets
some eye drops and a couple of followup appointments. No fuss, no muss, the
patient is happy, and the cash is in the bank.

> My take on this is that because Biotech (particularly synaptic
acceleration)
> is virtually non-invasive; I see the procedure as an injection of nanites
<snip>
A procedure that affects the nervous system, in my mind, is drastically
invasive, and this used to be reflected in the rules (neural bioware is
drastic invasive surgery in Shadowtech). I'm actually thinking about the
opposite (again, reflected in the recovery times listed in Shadowtech, which
are tripled for normal bioware and doubled for cultured bioware... I'm not
sure what Man and Machine says): since you can implant optical chips with
co-processors to "steady" the movement and integrate it with feedback, the
wired reflexes would actually be easier to retrain. Not only do you adapt to
the wires, the wires adapt to you. But then I also realized that there are
various combat drugs that increase initiative by +1d6, so I'm thinking that
perhaps a +1d6 adjustment wouldn't take so long for recovery. You'd just
think you were hopped up all the time. Insomnia, ADHD, and the like would be
symptoms for a while.

> Now this brings up something else. Body is rolled in recovery to reduce
the
> time. If recovering from something like this, wouldn't it be closer to
> Willpower or Intelligence since it's (probably) mostly the body/mind
> relearning how to move?
>
> Ahrain
No, the body "retrains" itself, rather than the mind "relearning" how
to
move. It doesn't matter how determined or intelligent you are, there is a
prerequisite amount of time and exercise that you have to go through
(although determination makes it more bearable), and although there is
variability, it is more a consequence of the side effects of surgery than
anything else. Even in 2050, there would at least be a minimum amount of
time for physical therapy. Maybe even emotional counseling, because
passionate emotions may trigger unwanted side effects and reactions.

Hahns Shin, MS II
Budding cybersurgeon
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know
that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed."
-G. K. Chesterton
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Synapses
Date: Thu Feb 21 05:20:01 2002
>From: "Hahns Shin" <Hahns_Shin@*******.com>
>A procedure that affects the nervous system, in my mind, is drastically
>invasive, and this used to be reflected in the rules (neural bioware is
>drastic invasive surgery in Shadowtech). I'm actually thinking about the
>opposite (again, reflected in the recovery times listed in Shadowtech,
>which
>are tripled for normal bioware and doubled for cultured bioware... I'm not
>sure what Man and Machine says): since you can implant optical chips with
>co-processors to "steady" the movement and integrate it with feedback, the
>wired reflexes would actually be easier to retrain. Not only do you adapt
>to
>the wires, the wires adapt to you.

I can't see that, the physical recovery time (ie bed-rest while your
stitches close) must be shorter for Bioware. When you have wires implanted
they'd have to cut you open and place superconductive cable down your
spine...etc the addition of an active feedback subprocesser would be even
more so, after all it's got to go somewhere. Yes the nanites actually wire
it into your system but nanites can only change what's there, they can't
create superconductive wire or preprogrammed optical chips, (or at least I'm
pretty sure they can't.)
With Neural Bioware (especially synaptic enhancement and brain
augmentation(?)) they have another option, the way it's written suggests
that rather than opening your spine from top to bottom they either do it as
injections (see my original comment) or they implant a "gland" at the base
of the skull. Rather than replacing the nervous system therefore it
encourages the body to do the work itself. So not only do you have less time
lying around doing nothing but, as my original comment tried to explain,
less need for physio as well.
Imagine you go to have some wires implanted, when you come out from the
annaesthetic you have cuts running the entire length of your spine, down the
inside of your arms and legs and in a network across your shoulders and
hips. worse than that (unless you had a reflex trigger put in) when you
reach for a glass of water you end up smashing it because your arm is moving
much further than you expect. In a couple of months your physio allows you
your major motor functions again and you can get on with your life.
Compare that to the bioware solution, you come out from the annaesthetic (if
you've had one) feeling virtually no different other than the cut in the
back of your neck, three weeks later you still feel no different so you have
"a word" with your doc, who tells you that he hasn't stiffed you (Yeah well
he would wouldn't he, you've stuck your Ares Pred into the collection of
hanging bioware he really doesn't want to lose.) he shows you test results
which say that you're 37.8677823432 percent faster than you were when you
came in and he expects you to reach 52 percent before you leave. do you
believe him? maybe not until you get back to your omaes when you suddenly
realise that you can quickdraw faster than your elven chummer for the first
time in your career. The change with neural Bioware is going to be so
gradual as to be unnoticable to those who see it regularly.
If you have a pair of shoes and one night I sneak in and glue a paper thin
layer of rubber to the soles you aren't going to notice when you put them on
the next day, even if I keep sneaking back, gluing an extra paper thin layer
to the soles each night you aren't going to notice in the morning that
anything is different. there will come a point when you say "hey, how come I
keep walking into this (insert obect here)?!? if however I snuck in each
night and glued the paper thin layer to the soles of a pair of shoes you
wore once every six months then the next time you put them on you'd notice
immediately.

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