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Message no. 1
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:47:36 -0500 (EST)
Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...

A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...

What do you think, and why...?



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 2
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:43:52 +1000 (EST)
> Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...
>
> A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
> initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
> himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
> spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...
>
> What do you think, and why...?

Errr I'd tend to say that if you want to do that you'd have to use an
increase Cybered Ref's spell, or the like. No real reason, apart from
Game Balance and fairness. (Although maybe I'm just biased... we're
keeping our group slow on purpose - even the big tuff sammie only goes at
14+2d6...)



Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: brett@***.orst.edu (Brett Barksdale)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 16:47:28 PDT
>Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...
>
>A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
>initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
>himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
>spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...
>
>What do you think, and why...?

I have a mage player who tried the same. I ruled that the Increased Reflexes
spell Lvl 3 doesn't add 3 dice, but simply raises the number of dice for
initiative to 4. It doesn't matter if it's being raised from one die to
four dice or three dice to four dice. He has the benefit of 3 dice (with
the Syn Acc II) w/o magic of he wants, but he doesn't get some godawful
amount of dice to roll (6) by overlapped bioware and magic.

Why? That's easy. Game balance - pure and simple.

- Brett
Message no. 4
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:05:38 -0500 (EST)
>> Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...
>>
>> A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
>> initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
>> himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
>> spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at
all...
>>
>> What do you think, and why...?
>
>Errr I'd tend to say that if you want to do that you'd have to use an
>increase Cybered Ref's spell, or the like. No real reason, apart from
>Game Balance and fairness. (Although maybe I'm just biased... we're
>keeping our group slow on purpose - even the big tuff sammie only goes at
>14+2d6...)
>
>Lady Jestyr
>
>
That's pretty much the reason I'm asking, cause we now have a Shaman who
moves at something like 13 + 6d6 or something, probably a lot higher
reaction...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 5
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:55:20 +0000
On 10 Sep 96 at 19:47, Steven Ratkovich wrote:
> A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
> initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
> himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
> spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...
>
> What do you think, and why...?
Nonsense. Well, come to think of it, not really. Well, depends.
The synaptic Accelerator _is_ Bioware, granted. But on the other hand,
Shadowtech p. 4 states that magicians have to spend Body Index _and_ Essence,
so one could argue you'd have to use the cyberered version of the spell ...
no, wait, SRII p. 155: "There is no cybered version of this spell, [...]". On
the other hand, noone I know actually uses the rule on p.4 of Shadowtech. So
most people use the "can't cast magic an increased reflexes of any
kind"-approach. And if your magician really should insist ... well, it _is_ by
the book.

What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 6
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 00:31:47 -0500 (EST)
>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
>
Ok, you asked for it. Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
better than most steet sams... He has over 300 karma, takes regular trips
to Chicago... is married to a Mantis Hive Queen, has slept with another
Mantis queen... He is married to a talismonger as well. He considers the
chicago ghoul community friends, and they regard him the same. He knows and
works for Harlequin on a semi regular basis, and he is the cockiest damn
shaman in the world. He, along with my character, have been through almost
every moduale FASA has piut out, and we have gone on dozens of original
runs... Name it, and we've dine it...:) That's what kind of shaman he is...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 7
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:01:39 -0500 (EST)
>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???

He's a COYOTE shaman, who thought he was a Cat shaman, except that was a
joke played on him by Spider.
He's married to a Mantis Queen spirit AND an enchanting adept.
He lives with an Orc with an intelligence of 8, a free spirit, and a pair of
5 year old twins who drink Neuro Stun for tea.

Puzzle that one out if you will . . .:-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Help! The toad is kicking my butt!"
Message no. 8
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:11:50 -0500 (EST)
>>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
>>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
>>
>Ok, you asked for it.

Sure did, hope you're ready to eat the flames on this post, cause I'm sure
they're a comin'! :-)

>Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
>cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
>better than most steet sams...

>He has over 300 karma,

NO, he has earned a TOTAL of apprx 300 karma throughout his career. Lest
anyone cry "MUNCHKIN" These PC's have been around a long time, and we game
an awful lot.
Hey, I live in frickin' Unionville, OH Does that tell you anything about the
nightlife around here?

<takes regular trips
>to Chicago... is married to a Mantis Hive Queen, has slept with another
>Mantis queen...

>He is married to a talismonger as well.

Actually she's an Enchantress Adept.

<He considers the
>chicago ghoul community friends, and they regard him the same.

>He knows and
>works for Harlequin on a semi regular basis,

OK, he works for him, but c'mon - he doesn't really KNOW him does he Bull?
<evil grin>

>and he is the cockiest damn
>shaman in the world.

Yep, that he is. Although that Roach spirit had him messed up pretty bad, so
did Penthisil's sacrifice, and Xuxa's chip addiction!

>He, along with my character, have been through almost
>every moduale FASA has put out, and we have gone on dozens of original
>runs... Name it, and we've dine it...:) That's what kind of shaman he is...:)

I think the only published FASA runs we haven't done are Imago, and DNA/DOA!

Silly isn't it? :-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Help! The toad is kicking my butt!"
Message no. 9
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:20:23 -0500
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> He's a COYOTE shaman, who thought he was a Cat shaman, except that was a
> joke played on him by Spider.
> He's married to a Mantis Queen spirit AND an enchanting adept.
> He lives with an Orc with an intelligence of 8, a free spirit, and a pair of
> 5 year old twins who drink Neuro Stun for tea.
>
> Puzzle that one out if you will . . .:-)
>
>
If you're GM isn't smoking something, I'm very affraid. (Hell, if s/he is,
I wanna know why s/he isn;t sharing... Thats some GOOD shit.)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
galens@*********.org argentum@****.isca.uiowa.ede galen-silversmith@*****.edu
http://www.isca.uiowa.edu/users/galen-silversmith/
"May the ducks of your life quack ever harmoniously"--Andromeda Yelton
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UL++++S++>H++++ P+>+++ L+(++)>+++ 3+>- E H++(+) K- !W>--- M+>-- V(-)
-op+ Y+>++
______ t+ 5+ j R++ G++ tv+ b+ D B--- e+ u* h! f?- r-- n+(--) y?
__\___ / Don't tease or feed the straight people SilenceÞath
\ // If space and time are curved, where do all the straight people
\ // come from? Bi, Pagan, And Proud!
\/ ListManager:death-and-pineapples@******.com
Message no. 10
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:44:41 -0500 (EST)
>On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>> He's a COYOTE shaman, who thought he was a Cat shaman, except that was a
>> joke played on him by Spider.
>> He's married to a Mantis Queen spirit AND an enchanting adept.
>> He lives with an Orc with an intelligence of 8, a free spirit, and a pair of
>> 5 year old twins who drink Neuro Stun for tea.
>>
>> Puzzle that one out if you will . . .:-)
>>
>>
>If you're GM isn't smoking something, I'm very affraid. (Hell, if s/he is,
>I wanna know why s/he isn;t sharing... Thats some GOOD shit.)

The GM is me.
Smoking? Naaahhh.
That's far too tame!
I just find a lot of really whacked out ideas and go with them all at once.
I'm a firm believer in the dangling plot thread coming back to haunt the PC's!


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"Help! The toad is kicking my butt!"
Message no. 11
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 01:36:57 -0700
The Jestyr wrote:
>
> > Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...
> >
> > A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
> > initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
> > himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
> > spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...
> >
> > What do you think, and why...?
>
> Errr I'd tend to say that if you want to do that you'd have to use an
> increase Cybered Ref's spell, or the like. No real reason, apart from
> Game Balance and fairness. (Although maybe I'm just biased... we're
> keeping our group slow on purpose - even the big tuff sammie only goes at
> 14+2d6...)
>
> Lady Jestyr

We have a house rule that no-one in our game (PC or NPC) is able to get
above 4d6 initiative dice unless you want to completely cheat the laws
of (meta)physics like the move-by-wire system, and then you'll be paying
a price anyways so enjoy the speed while you have it. Just common sense,
and a small grasp at some form of realism.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 12
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:04:35 GMT
Brett Barksdale writes

> >Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...
> >
> >A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
> >initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
> >himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
> >spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...
> >
> >What do you think, and why...?
>
You are correct. You can add the physad inc reflexes power to that
list as well.

> I have a mage player who tried the same. I ruled that the Increased Reflexes
> spell Lvl 3 doesn't add 3 dice, but simply raises the number of dice for
> initiative to 4. It doesn't matter if it's being raised from one die to
> four dice or three dice to four dice. He has the benefit of 3 dice (with
> the Syn Acc II) w/o magic of he wants, but he doesn't get some godawful
> amount of dice to roll (6) by overlapped bioware and magic.
>
> Why? That's easy. Game balance - pure and simple.
>
> - Brett
>
That is one solution which many people follow, including the former
DLOH as folks have quoted him as origonally ruling you could gat a
max 4 dice, but since move by wire that limit is broken.

I allow anything the book does not ban and get away with a lot as
most players do not find the abuses. considering that synaptic 2
costs lots of money and 1.6 body indax (yes thats 2 magic, geas
time!) this is not liable to that much abuse. I do tend to discourage
this sort of thing though and NPC's that use it are very very rare (i
think i remember 2 in the last 2-3 years, both i time apperances of
very powerful characters).

Mark
Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:12:31 +0100
Steven Ratkovich said on 19:47/10 Sep 96...

> Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...
>
> A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
> initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto
> himself. Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. The
> spell doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...

Because SRII doesn't refer to books you don't really need to run the game
(unlike, say, Phoenix Command), they didn't put in any reference to
bioware.
However, there is a DLOH ruling that says you cannot combine initiative
enhancements, and that only the highest one works (unless specifically
mentioned otherwise in the rules, of course). Taking your example, the
character would get the +3D6 from the spell, and totally disregard the
+2D6 from the accelerator.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I swore I'd never ever be like him...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 14
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:36:14 -0500 (EST)
>>>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
>>>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
>>>
>>Ok, you asked for it.
>
>Sure did, hope you're ready to eat the flames on this post, cause I'm sure
>they're a comin'! :-)
>
Ahhh, ya think?

>>Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
>>cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
>>better than most steet sams...
>
>>He has over 300 karma,
>
>NO, he has earned a TOTAL of apprx 300 karma throughout his career. Lest
>anyone cry "MUNCHKIN" These PC's have been around a long time, and we game
>an awful lot.
>Hey, I live in frickin' Unionville, OH Does that tell you anything about the
>nightlife around here?
>

I stand corrected, oh great and mighty toad fighter...:)

><takes regular trips
>>to Chicago... is married to a Mantis Hive Queen, has slept with another
>>Mantis queen...
>
>>He is married to a talismonger as well.
>
>Actually she's an Enchantress Adept.
>

Whatever...:)

><He considers the
>>chicago ghoul community friends, and they regard him the same.
>
>>He knows and
>>works for Harlequin on a semi regular basis,
>
>OK, he works for him, but c'mon - he doesn't really KNOW him does he Bull?
><evil grin>
>

Not in the Biblical sense, no... <bigger grin>

>>and he is the cockiest damn
>>shaman in the world.
>
>Yep, that he is. Although that Roach spirit had him messed up pretty bad, so
>did Penthisil's sacrifice, and Xuxa's chip addiction!
>

Good luck puzzling those out, boys and girls, I barely scratched the
surface...:)

>>He, along with my character, have been through almost
>>every moduale FASA has put out, and we have gone on dozens of original
>>runs... Name it, and we've dine it...:) That's what kind of shaman he is...:)
>
>I think the only published FASA runs we haven't done are Imago, and DNA/DOA!
>
>Silly isn't it? :-)
>
Incredibally...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 15
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 06:39:21 -0500 (EST)
>On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>> He's a COYOTE shaman, who thought he was a Cat shaman, except that was a
>> joke played on him by Spider.
>> He's married to a Mantis Queen spirit AND an enchanting adept.
>> He lives with an Orc with an intelligence of 8, a free spirit, and a pair of
>> 5 year old twins who drink Neuro Stun for tea.
>>
>> Puzzle that one out if you will . . .:-)
>>
>>
>If you're GM isn't smoking something, I'm very affraid. (Hell, if s/he is,
>I wanna know why s/he isn;t sharing... Thats some GOOD shit.)
>
>
He is the gM, Galen...:) And I'm the Shaman's Ork buddy, a decker with an
intelligence of 10, thank you very much...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 16
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 15:13:25 EST
---------------------------------------------------------------

%Ok, quick question for you boys and girls to toss about...

%A shaman in our group alread has Synaptic Accelerator Lvl 2, giving him 3d6
%initiative. He then quickens an Incrrease Initiative 3d6 spell onto %himself.
%Now, nowhere in any books could we find that it doesn't work. %The spell
%doesn't work with wired reflexes, but doesn't mention bioware at all...

%What do you think, and why...?



%Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
%Not a flame, but a small glow:)
---------------------------------------------------
DO NOT ALLOW IT. I got a mail from mark explaining
why adepts were the best characters: Get an adept,
buy synaptic 2, get a mage to use a spell of inc.
init on you [+3d6], initiate so you can mask it.
Also buy from adept abilities +3d6 initiative [other
mods are also cumulatieve] . "by the book" all these
things are cumulative!!!!, now if you allow such
things you'll end up with adepts averaging around 50
in initiative [no, I'm NOT kidding!!] when using
drugs. else something around 43!!!! can we say
monti-haul?
Ferri
Message no. 17
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 96 17:04:10 EST
-------------------------------------------------
%>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
%>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
%>
%Ok, you asked for it. Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
%cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
%better than most steet sams... He has over 300 karma, takes regular trips
%to Chicago... is married to a Mantis Hive Queen, has slept with another
%Mantis queen... He is married to a talismonger as well. He considers the
%chicago ghoul community friends, and they regard him the same. He knows
%and works for Harlequin on a semi regular basis, and he is the cockiest
%damn shaman in the world. He, along with my character, have been through
%almost every moduale FASA has piut out, and we have gone on dozens of
%original
%runs... Name it, and we've dine it...:) That's what kind of shaman he is...:)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their "accomplishments"?
Ferri
Message no. 18
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:40:55 -0500 (EST)
>Because SRII doesn't refer to books you don't really need to run the game
>(unlike, say, Phoenix Command), they didn't put in any reference to
>bioware.
>However, there is a DLOH ruling that says you cannot combine initiative
>enhancements, and that only the highest one works (unless specifically
>mentioned otherwise in the rules, of course). Taking your example, the
>character would get the +3D6 from the spell, and totally disregard the
>+2D6 from the accelerator.

I know I should know this, but what is DLOH?


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"What?! No pretzels?!"
Message no. 19
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:07:47 -0500 (EST)
>-------------------------------------------------
>%>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
>%>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
>%>
>%Ok, you asked for it. Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
>%cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
>%better than most steet sams... He has over 300 karma, takes regular trips
>%to Chicago... is married to a Mantis Hive Queen, has slept with another
>%Mantis queen... He is married to a talismonger as well. He considers the
>%chicago ghoul community friends, and they regard him the same. He knows
>%and works for Harlequin on a semi regular basis, and he is the cockiest
>%damn shaman in the world. He, along with my character, have been through
>%almost every moduale FASA has piut out, and we have gone on dozens of
>%original
>%runs... Name it, and we've dine it...:) That's what kind of shaman he is...:)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their "accomplishments"?
> Ferri

I'm really getting tired of that "M" word.

I've posted this before.
These are EXPERIENCED characters.
We play a LOT!

Figure an average of three play sessions each week, completing one adventure
each week.
Average that out to maybe 40 adventures completed a year.
That's a minimum of probably 100 shadowruns these PC's have completed.
Assuming an average karma score of 3 (low estimate) that's at least 300
total karma.

What could your character have accomplished with 300 karma points?

I know a lot of people think that characters this powerful should be
retured, but hey, it's a lot of fun, and it has really changed the scope of
the whole game.
I'll agree that with a large team playing with weaker characters is fun, but
with two players and a GM, it's easy to maintain this power level, and still
keep things interesting.

This is NOT a munchkin campaign. These characters started out as two of the
worst shadowrunners ever!
Johhny could barely cast a force 3 spell without dropping unconcious from
drain, and Bull would regularly get stumped by the simplest barrier/access IC.

I've always thought that experience deserved some sort of reward, and after
putting this much effort in the PC's the players deserve to enjoy this kind
of power.

Sheeeeesh! :-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"What?! No pretzels?!"
Message no. 20
From: Dvixen Vidi Vici <dvixen@****.spydernet.com>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:08:18 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> I know I should know this, but what is DLOH?

The 'Dark Lord on High' who, I beleive is Mike Mulihvill at present.
(I think I lost track. Wan't he the one who preferred not to be termed
as such? And who was the first DLOH?)

> FAMOUS LAST WORDS
> "What?! No pretzels?!"

How 'bout some corn chips?

--
AJ Schaafsma Dvixen@****.spydernet.com
This post in no way reflect the opinions of the myriad voices in my head.

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Message no. 21
From: "Galen \"Marphod\" Silversmith" <argentum@****.isca.uiowa.edu>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:33:48 -0500
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> I know I should know this, but what is DLOH?
>

Dark Lord on High.

(read the FAQ)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galen Silversmith "Please relax and enjoy your shoes"--DNA
galens@*********.org argentum@****.isca.uiowa.ede galen-silversmith@*****.edu
http://www.isca.uiowa.edu/users/galen-silversmith/
"May the ducks of your life quack ever harmoniously"--Andromeda Yelton
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\ // come from? Bi, Pagan, And Proud!
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Message no. 22
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:18:16 -0500 (EST)
>>Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their "accomplishments"?
> Ferri
>
>
Actually, Bull and Johnny strated off as two of the weakest characters I've
ever seen. Ask Steve Tinner here on the list, our erstwhile GM. We have
earned everything we have, the hard way... With blood...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 23
From: The Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:22:06 +1000 (EST)
> I know a lot of people think that characters this powerful should be
> retured, but hey, it's a lot of fun, and it has really changed the scope of
> the whole game.

Ahhhh, rubbish. I've had several characters get to 150 karma +, and two
of our team members, the PhysAd and the Rigger, (the PhysAd's player
moved away and the Rigger retired) had 400+ Karma and 600+ Karma
respectively... :)


Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:21:34 +1000 (EST)
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> >>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get increased
> >>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
> >>
> >Ok, you asked for it.
>
> Sure did, hope you're ready to eat the flames on this post, cause I'm sure
> they're a comin'! :-)
>
> >Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
> >cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
> >better than most steet sams...
>
> >He has over 300 karma,
>
> NO, he has earned a TOTAL of apprx 300 karma throughout his career. Lest
> anyone cry "MUNCHKIN" These PC's have been around a long time, and we game
> an awful lot.

I see no problem here, We have a rigger in our group with over 500. Cause
he doesn't play anymore but still.


===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.
Message no. 25
From: Jamie Houston <s430472@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:29:06 +1000 (EST)
On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Joker wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> > >>What kind of sick Shaman is that, anyway? Spending 1.6 BI to get
increased
> > >>reflexes? Does he have no sense of dignity? Or is he toxic???
> > >>
> > >Ok, you asked for it.
> >
> > Sure did, hope you're ready to eat the flames on this post, cause I'm sure
> > they're a comin'! :-)
> >
> > >Johnny 99 is a Coyote Shaman that thought he was a
> > >cat shaman. He tends to forget he's not a Phys Ad at times, is faster and
> > >better than most steet sams...
> >
> > >He has over 300 karma,
> >
> > NO, he has earned a TOTAL of apprx 300 karma throughout his career. Lest
> > anyone cry "MUNCHKIN" These PC's have been around a long time, and we
game
> > an awful lot.
>
> I see no problem here, We have a rigger in our group with over 500. Cause
> he doesn't play anymore but still.

He has every skill on the skill web....



______________________________________________________________________
Jamie Houston * "If a kid asks why it's raining,
aka Bollox, Hamish,(and * a cute thing to tell him is "God is
lots of other unmentionable * crying"...And if he asks why God is
pseudonyms) * crying, another cute thing to tell
s430472@*****.student.gu.edu.au * him is "It's probably something
Griffith Uni * you did!"
______________________________________________________________________
Message no. 26
From: Joker <s1057948@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:45:10 +1000 (EST)
On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> I've posted this before.
> These are EXPERIENCED characters.
> We play a LOT!
><Snip>
>
> I've always thought that experience deserved some sort of reward, and after
> putting this much effort in the PC's the players deserve to enjoy this kind
> of power.
>
> Sheeeeesh! :-)
>

Well Put.


===================================================================
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go,
because, man, they're gone.
===================================================================
The Joker,
Craig Chatfield. Email : s1057948@*****.student.gu.au

===================================================================
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.
And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never
expect it.
Message no. 27
From: The WARLOCK <BADBENE@***********.HTL-TEX.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:35:58 +0100
> Ahhhh, rubbish. I've had several characters get to 150 karma +, and two
> of our team members, the PhysAd and the Rigger, (the PhysAd's player
> moved away and the Rigger retired) had 400+ Karma and 600+ Karma
> respectively... :)
>
> Lady Jestyr
I got a total of 1500+ karma in all my characters. My mage alone
nears 700. (The one with the 56+ successes). Needless to say, I've
been playing shadowrun a lot.

WARLOCK
Message no. 28
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:36:25 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 14:07/11 Sep 96...

> >Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their "accomplishments"?
> > Ferri
>
> I'm really getting tired of that "M" word.
[snipped rest of post]

Have to agree. I don't know these characters at all, but I get a bit tired
of calling high-powered (or even long-lived ones) characters "munchkins"
as an automatic reaction. I'd say, before you acuse anyone of anything
(and that's what Ferri was doing), get an informed opinion on the person
in question -- if you'e played a game with them, *then* you can decide
whether or not they're munchkins or just characters who are good at what
they're doing (with or without help from the GM, that doesn't matter if
you ask me).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tourist, Rincewind had decided, meant 'idiot'.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 29
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:30:06 +0000
On 12 Sep 96 at 11:36, Gurth wrote:
> Steven A. Tinner said on 14:07/11 Sep 96...
> > I'm really getting tired of that "M" word.
> [snipped rest of post]
> Have to agree. I don't know these characters at all, but I get a bit tired
> of calling high-powered (or even long-lived ones) characters "munchkins"
> as an automatic reaction. I'd say, before you acuse anyone of anything
> (and that's what Ferri was doing), get an informed opinion on the person
> in question -
[snip]
"Funny" thing is it this often-seen-always-boring discussion comes from my
question what kind of shaman would have a Syn.Acc. lvl 2 implanted. That was
answered, and obviously Steve's style of gaming doesn't match mine, so topic
was off. I don't know why people suddenly feel the urge to jump up and scream
"*****" Well, you know what they scream...

Hey, folks, please CALM DOWN, let other people play the game the way they
like, even if it _is_ munchkinism in your eyes.
_I_ wouldn't change my style o game just 'cause someone tells me "That's
stupid, do it the way we do", I am sure Steve and his group wount, and I'll
bet none of you who is now or was recently screaming will. So CALM DOWN
please.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 30
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[4]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 15:42:59 EST
----------------------------------------------------------------

%Steven A. Tinner said on 14:07/11 Sep 96...

%> >Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their
%"accomplishments"? > >
% Ferri
%>
%> I'm really getting tired of that "M" word.
%[snipped rest of post]

%Have to agree. I don't know these characters at all, but I get a bit tired
%of calling high-powered (or even long-lived ones) characters "munchkins"
%as an automatic reaction. I'd say, before you acuse anyone of anything
%(and that's what Ferri was doing), get an informed opinion on the person
%in question -- if you'e played a game with them, *then* you can decide
%whether or not they're munchkins or just characters who are good at what
%they're doing (with or without help from the GM, that doesn't matter if
%you ask me).

--
%Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
-------------------------------------------------------
The whole thing just seemed tooooo improbable at the time.. come on, married to
a bug queen??? But I do understand that different people have different
standards for what they consider appropriate for a sr2 gaming session I would
certainly dissaprove [and that is mildly put] of it in one of my games,
regardless of whether the character had 1500 karma or not. That of course
doesn't mean you can't play that way, it's a game so play it whatever way you
like.
Oh btw. You perhaps use the term munchkin differently than I do, I also count
overpowered characters in there, whether GM or player controlled [I ve quit more
than one campaign on grounds of what I call gm-munchkinism]

Ferri
Message no. 31
From: Peter Leitch <pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:43:52 +1000
At 11:36 12/09/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Steven A. Tinner said on 14:07/11 Sep 96...
>
>> >Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their "accomplishments"?
>> > Ferri
>>
>> I'm really getting tired of that "M" word.
>[snipped rest of post]
>
>Have to agree. I don't know these characters at all, but I get a bit tired
>of calling high-powered (or even long-lived ones) characters "munchkins"
>as an automatic reaction. I'd say, before you acuse anyone of anything
>(and that's what Ferri was doing), get an informed opinion on the person
>in question -- if you'e played a game with them, *then* you can decide
>whether or not they're munchkins or just characters who are good at what
>they're doing (with or without help from the GM, that doesn't matter if
>you ask me).
>

To my way of thinking, a munchkin is the player, not the character.
A player who persistently rapes the rules to advance his character,
who dominates a session in a way that doesn't allow other players
roleplaying opportunities...these are the things that make up a
munchkin. These are the characters that need to be "retired"...in
the sense that the Mob means it, of course. Retired with extreme
prejudice, in fact.

I do have to say, however, that characters with extremely high
karma counts need something else to focus on, different styles
of adventures (I use that word advisedly instead of runs). In our
campaign, the gross characters (someone dubbed them The
Wrecking Crew, but I don't like the nickname) tend to play games
with a political bent. The non-Combat skills tend to get used
in these games. THIS is where skills like Etiquette (Corporate),
Negotiation, Psychology, and Sociology come into their own.
These make extremely good (and bloody complex!!) games.
Lots o' fun!!


PML

***************************************
Peter Leitch
<pleitch_hpcs@*******.com.au>
Canberra, Australia
Message no. 32
From: chaos@*****.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 05:25:07 -0500 (EST)
>I do have to say, however, that characters with extremely high
>karma counts need something else to focus on, different styles
>of adventures (I use that word advisedly instead of runs). In our
>campaign, the gross characters (someone dubbed them The
>Wrecking Crew, but I don't like the nickname) tend to play games
>with a political bent. The non-Combat skills tend to get used
>in these games. THIS is where skills like Etiquette (Corporate),
>Negotiation, Psychology, and Sociology come into their own.
>These make extremely good (and bloody complex!!) games.
>Lots o' fun!!
>
>
>
My comment about our groups characters was what started this mess. Well,
our games HAVE taken a somewhat non combative bent to them. We have
EXTREMELY well developed personal lives and characterization. Usually,
about one in three game seesions don't even involve dice. We just role play
and have fun...

And for those times when we do need a little combat, there's nothing like a
stroll through the DMZ in chicago...:)



Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?
Not a flame, but a small glow:)
Message no. 33
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Synaptic Accelerator and Increased Initiative
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:33:31 -0500 (EST)
>At 11:36 12/09/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>>Steven A. Tinner said on 14:07/11 Sep 96...
>>
>>> >Ever noticed munchkins are always proud of their
"accomplishments"?
>>> > Ferri
>>>
>>> I'm really getting tired of that "M" word.
>>[snipped rest of post]
>>
>>Have to agree. I don't know these characters at all, but I get a bit tired
>>of calling high-powered (or even long-lived ones) characters "munchkins"

>>as an automatic reaction. I'd say, before you acuse anyone of anything
>>(and that's what Ferri was doing), get an informed opinion on the person
>>in question -- if you'e played a game with them, *then* you can decide
>>whether or not they're munchkins or just characters who are good at what
>>they're doing (with or without help from the GM, that doesn't matter if
>>you ask me).
>>
>
>To my way of thinking, a munchkin is the player, not the character.
>A player who persistently rapes the rules to advance his character,
>who dominates a session in a way that doesn't allow other players
>roleplaying opportunities...these are the things that make up a
>munchkin. These are the characters that need to be "retired"...in
>the sense that the Mob means it, of course. Retired with extreme
>prejudice, in fact.
>
>I do have to say, however, that characters with extremely high
>karma counts need something else to focus on, different styles
>of adventures (I use that word advisedly instead of runs). In our
>campaign, the gross characters (someone dubbed them The
>Wrecking Crew, but I don't like the nickname) tend to play games
>with a political bent. The non-Combat skills tend to get used
>in these games. THIS is where skills like Etiquette (Corporate),
>Negotiation, Psychology, and Sociology come into their own.
>These make extremely good (and bloody complex!!) games.
>Lots o' fun!!

I completely agree.
That's the way our campaign has moved as well.
Interaction with NPC's is much more interestig than blowing away sec-guards
and stealing data anyway! :-)


FAMOUS LAST WORDS
"What's red and has six holes in it?"
"blam! blam! blam! blam! blam! blam!"
"You. . ."

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