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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 09:20:01 2001
Gun question, guys...:)

Guns like Glocks and the Infiltrator and Puzzler from
Cannon Companion, that are non-metallic - how exactly
do they work? I mean, in the real world, what's a
Glock made out of that it doesn't show up on metal
detectors?

Also, what about ammo and clips? I'd presume that the
clips are made out of the same stuff as the guns. As
for the bullets, here's my understanding: casings are
typically brass, bullets are typically lead. Neither
metal is ferrous. Metal detectors are actually MADs -
Magnetic Anomaly Detectors - they detect ferrous
materials. The ammo therefore won't be detected
because it's non-ferrous. Is this correct, or is my
recollection of high school science even worse than I
thought it was? ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 09:40:01 2001
Gun question, guys...:)

Guns like Glocks and the Infiltrator and Puzzler from
Cannon Companion, that are non-metallic - how exactly
do they work? I mean, in the real world, what's a
Glock made out of that it doesn't show up on metal
detectors?

Also, what about ammo and clips? I'd presume that the
clips are made out of the same stuff as the guns. As
for the bullets, here's my understanding: casings are
typically brass, bullets are typically lead. Neither
metal is ferrous. Metal detectors are actually MADs -
Magnetic Anomaly Detectors - they detect ferrous
materials. The ammo therefore won't be detected
because it's non-ferrous. Is this correct, or is my
recollection of high school science even worse than I
thought it was? ;)

====Doc'
========================================================A glock's made of synthetics and
plastics almost in entirety so it won't
show on metal detectors

Derek
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 09:45:01 2001
At 08:32 09.08.2001 -0500, Derek Hyde wrote:

<snip>

>A glock's made of synthetics and plastics almost in entirety so it won't
>show on metal detectors

Wrong. Glocks show up on detectors like any other weapon. And anyone
overlooking a gun barrel and receiver parts is not very competent, so to say.

Arclight
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nightwinder)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 10:05:01 2001
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Gun question, guys...:)
>
> Guns like Glocks and the Infiltrator and Puzzler from
> Cannon Companion, that are non-metallic - how exactly
> do they work? I mean, in the real world, what's a
> Glock made out of that it doesn't show up on metal
> detectors?

Small note: Glocks DO show up on metal detectors, because they DO have metal in them.
They've just got a polymer frame as compared to a steel one. That's about the only
difference between them and most other guns, except you can't tell glock models apart
unless you're REALLY familiar with them (Damn people what make their gun's almost exactly
the same)

But as for the Infiltrator & Puzzler, they'd have a polymer frame, with a
"ceramic" (You
know, like how vehicle armour nowadays is "ceramic") barrel, muzzle, hammer etc.
Or maybe
the inside of the gun is made out of a polymer material, but I doubt it. Less good in
compression than other stuff (From memory. I could be mistaken, and they could have made
something up)

> Also, what about ammo and clips? I'd presume that the
> clips are made out of the same stuff as the guns. As
> for the bullets, here's my understanding: casings are
> typically brass, bullets are typically lead. Neither
> metal is ferrous. Metal detectors are actually MADs -
> Magnetic Anomaly Detectors - they detect ferrous
> materials. The ammo therefore won't be detected
> because it's non-ferrous. Is this correct, or is my
> recollection of high school science even worse than I
> thought it was? ;)

Clips are generally made in either a polymer, or steel. That's about all the range
you're going to get nowadays. The G11 (For those not in the know, the only caseless
firearm designed so far excluding the "Metal Storm" or whatever that insane
autofire rate
weapon is caleed) was designed with a polymer case (At least, looking at the pictures of
it at www.hkpro.com)

With the ammunition, generally you'd be right, although it depends on the bullet. Whilst
usually, the rounds are brass and lead, some types of ammo have penetrators, either
steel, tungsten or a similar metal. So it really all depends on what you're packing,
doesn't it?


.....Ooops. I'm out in the open now :) I might be forced to stay like this.


--
Nightwinder
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagn'nagl fhtagn
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 10:10:02 2001
> >A glock's made of synthetics and plastics almost in
entirety so it won't show on metal detectors
>
> Wrong. Glocks show up on detectors like any other
weapon. And anyone overlooking a gun barrel and
receiver parts is not very competent, so to say.
> Arclight

More info please, Arclight? What kinds of scanners?

I'm not talking about breaking a gun down and hiding
the pieces (although the CC guns let you do that), nor
about hiding the gun from physical searches - just
about hiding them from electronic scanning.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 10:30:01 2001
At 15:04 09.08.2001 +0100, Rand Ratinac wrote:

<snip>

>More info please, Arclight? What kinds of scanners?
>
>I'm not talking about breaking a gun down and hiding
>the pieces (although the CC guns let you do that), nor
>about hiding the gun from physical searches - just
>about hiding them from electronic scanning.

http://www.millenniumsend.com/pdf/airport.pdf

It's not written for shadowrun, but should give a good impression I think.
The scaner-specific part is located in the middle of the document, but
everything there is extremely interesting.

Arclight
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 10:35:01 2001
> Small note: Glocks DO show up on metal detectors,
because they DO have metal in them. They've just got a
polymer frame as compared to a steel one. That's about
the only difference between them and most other guns,
except you can't tell glock models apart unless you're
REALLY familiar with them (Damn people what make their
gun's almost exactly the same)

So TV and movies have been LYING to me! Bum! ;)

Out of curiousity, are there any completely
non-metallic guns in existence today?

> But as for the Infiltrator & Puzzler, they'd have a
polymer frame, with a "ceramic" (You know, like how
vehicle armour nowadays is "ceramic") barrel, muzzle,
hammer etc. Or maybe the inside of the gun is made out
of a polymer material, but I doubt it. Less good in
compression than other stuff (From memory. I could be
mistaken, and they could have made something up)

They call it 'polyresin' in CC.

> Clips are generally made in either a polymer, or
steel. That's about all the range you're going to get
nowadays. The G11 (For those not in the know, the
only caseless firearm designed so far excluding the
"Metal Storm" or whatever that insane autofire rate
weapon is caleed) was designed with a polymer case (At
least, looking at the pictures of it at www.hkpro.com)

What do Glocks use, do you know?

> With the ammunition, generally you'd be right,
although it depends on the bullet. Whilst usually,
the rounds are brass and lead, some types of ammo have
penetrators, either steel, tungsten or a similar
metal. So it really all depends on what you're
packing, doesn't it?
> Nightwinder

Of course...what I meant was 'typical' ammo. Regular
ammo, to use the SR term. :) Assuming it's cased, it'd
be brass and lead - caseless and it's just the lead
bullet itself. Obviously, steel penetrators would show
up on a metal detector, but what about the other kinds?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nightwinder)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 10:55:04 2001
Rand Ratinac wrote:


> Out of curiousity, are there any completely
> non-metallic guns in existence today?

To the best of my knowledge, no. They'd be possible to make, but probably wouldn't last
very long once used. Fractures and such. Of course, someone could have made one but
that kind of weapon would not reach the market.

> What do Glocks use, do you know?

Glock goes with the polymer clip to the best of my knowledge, but you could get a steel
one if you wanted.

>
> Of course...what I meant was 'typical' ammo. Regular
> ammo, to use the SR term. :) Assuming it's cased, it'd
> be brass and lead - caseless and it's just the lead
> bullet itself. Obviously, steel penetrators would show
> up on a metal detector, but what about the other kinds?

I honestly couldn't tell you for certain, not knowing how other metals react to MAD
scanners. At a guess, I'd say that tungsten and the other, non-steel penetrators
wouldn't show up, but without having specific knowledge, I can't tell you and be 100%
certain.


--
Nightwinder
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagn'nagl fhtagn
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 11:00:05 2001
<snip>

>A glock's made of synthetics and plastics almost in entirety so it won't
>show on metal detectors

Wrong. Glocks show up on detectors like any other weapon. And anyone
overlooking a gun barrel and receiver parts is not very competent, so to
say.

Arclight


I'm referring to game mechanics not reality

Derek
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 14:00:05 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Thu, 09 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Guns like Glocks and the Infiltrator and Puzzler from
> Cannon Companion, that are non-metallic - how exactly
> do they work? I mean, in the real world, what's a
> Glock made out of that it doesn't show up on metal
> detectors?

IRL, Glocks use plastic for many large parts that traditionally were made
of steel. As plastic is transparent to X-rays and not magnetic, weapon
detectors wouldn't be able to pick up these bits; however, this isn't
really a problem because there is enough metal in the weapon to set off MAD
systems, and to let anyone with a functioning brain recognize it as a
weapon on an X-ray image. Still, Glock added X-ray-opaque dyes to the
plastic in response to the media's "transparent gun" cries.

> Also, what about ammo and clips? I'd presume that the
> clips are made out of the same stuff as the guns.

Magazines are usually made from sheet steel, up to maybe a millimeter thick,
or sometimes from aluminium or plastic, and have a steel spring. Since metal
detectors can find (perhaps even count) loose change, that spring alone,
being two or three times the length of the magazine, isn't going to cause
them problems.

Therefore, if you want to make a completely non-metallic weapon, you're
going to have to find a solution to this. The most obvious one is to use a
break-open weapon, like a double-barrel shotgun, or a revolver and make it
out of ceramics and high-strength plastics. Then make ceramic bullets and
stick them onto caseless propellant blocks.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 14:00:23 2001
According to Nightwinder, on Thu, 09 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Clips are generally made in either a polymer, or steel. That's about all the range
> you're going to get nowadays. The G11 (For those not in the know, the only caseless
> firearm designed so far excluding the "Metal Storm" or whatever that insane
autofire rate
> weapon is caleed)

And a Daisy .22 rifle.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jason Lantrip)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 14:15:01 2001
On Thursday, August 09, 2001 11:07 AM, Gurth [SMTP:Gurth@******.nl] wrote:
> however, this isn't really a problem because there is enough metal in the
weapon to set off MAD
> systems, and to let anyone with a functioning brain recognize it as a
> weapon on an X-ray image. Still, Glock added X-ray-opaque dyes to the
> plastic in response to the media's "transparent gun" cries.

That's where guns like the puzzler and the infiltrator come in handy...even
with enough material in them to set off a metal detector, they're broken down
into smaller pieces that may not be recognizable as pieces of a weapon. It
would also let you spread the amount of metal over an area (neck, waist, ankle,
etc) which might not set off the detector (if it's set to look for x amount of
metal concentrated in any area). At an airport, or a high-level press
conference, you'd be screwed (a small belt buckle at a lot of airports will set
off the sensors). It'd let you get through the x-ray scanner easily enough,
though.

>
> Therefore, if you want to make a completely non-metallic weapon, you're
> going to have to find a solution to this. The most obvious one is to use a
> break-open weapon, like a double-barrel shotgun, or a revolver and make it
> out of ceramics and high-strength plastics. Then make ceramic bullets and
> stick them onto caseless propellant blocks.
>

Or, like the Clint Eastwood movie (where he was secret service), conceal the
bullet somewhere. I think they used a lucky rabbit's foot attached to a key
ring. Are credsticks made with enough metal to set off a MAD? If so, you could
possibly hollow out a credstick, slide a couple of rounds into it and leave
some kind of fake LED/LCD screen/whatnot up to fool anyone who might want to
make a passing glance at it. People expect you to carry a credstick, right? It
probably wouldn't get you through any kind of xray system, but it'd probably
get you past most non-paranoid security guards.

It just depends on the situation and how much time you have. There is no
security measure that can be designed by Man that cannot be circumvented by
Man. Sneaking the gun in with you is not always required. Not if you can get
the gun in before you get there...

--J
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 17:20:01 2001
At 07:18 PM 8/9/2001 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>According to Nightwinder, on Thu, 09 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > Clips are generally made in either a polymer, or steel. That's about
> all the range
> > you're going to get nowadays. The G11 (For those not in the know, the
> only caseless
> > firearm designed so far excluding the "Metal Storm" or whatever that
> insane autofire rate
> > weapon is caleed)
>
>And a Daisy .22 rifle.

LOL! :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 21:35:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Therefore, if you want to make a completely
non-metallic weapon, you're going to have to find a
solution to this. The most obvious one is to use a
break-open weapon, like a double-barrel shotgun, or a
revolver and make it out of ceramics and high-strength
plastics. Then make ceramic bullets and stick them
onto caseless propellant blocks.
> Gurth@******.nl -

Or like the Puzzler and Infiltrator, make them out of
polyresin (whatever that is) and use Hi-C rounds? :)

Would that actually work, or do you think that's
another "cool in fiction, never gonna happen in real
life" things?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Thu Aug 9 21:55:01 2001
Ooo, one question comes to mind.

Assuming you're in a situation where you know that the
only thing you have to worry about are metal
detectors. You know there are no x-ray scanners and
you won't be physically searched. Does anyone know of
a way you could carry a gun (y'know, inside something
or other) that would ensure a MAD wouldn't detect it?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Smith)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 10 02:40:00 2001
<snippety-snip-snip>
Gurth Sez:
> Therefore, if you want to make a completely
>non-metallic weapon, you're going to have to find a
>solution to this. The most obvious one is to use a
>break-open weapon, like a double-barrel shotgun, or a
>revolver and make it out of ceramics and high-strength
>plastics. Then make ceramic bullets and stick them
>onto caseless propellant blocks

<and again!>
The Doc sez:
> Or like the Puzzler and Infiltrator, make them out of
> polyresin (whatever that is) and use Hi-C rounds? :)
>
> Would that actually work, or do you think that's
> another "cool in fiction, never gonna happen in real
> life" things?

well... There are plastics out now that act as (very) low-grade springs...
You've probably seen them.

Anything that has the little locking-tabs on it (you usually have to push
the tabs in to remove whatever from the slot is often made of plastic and it
does have a bit "give" to it. Certainly nothing like a steel spiral-type
spring, but I'm betting they'd be able to come up with something that'd be
comparable to one in half a century or so.

Lepper.
seutekh@*******.com (period)
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 10 06:40:01 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Fri, 10 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Or like the Puzzler and Infiltrator, make them out of
> polyresin (whatever that is) and use Hi-C rounds? :)

Hi-C rounds are, IMO, more or less what I described. It's just that I was
thinking more in RL terms than in SR ones :)

> Would that actually work, or do you think that's
> another "cool in fiction, never gonna happen in real
> life" things?

I wonder mainly how they make the clip work. Other than that, I could see
it working, even though it reeks of Hollywood a bit too much for my taste :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 10 09:05:00 2001
At 12:02 10.08.2001 +0200, Gurth wrote:

<snip>

>I wonder mainly how they make the clip work. Other than that, I could see
>it working, even though it reeks of Hollywood a bit too much for my taste :)

Hmh, there are clips using thin plates of metal sheet to hold the rounds
under pressure, this could work ... the sheet is rolled together, and when
rounds are fired, expands.

Arclight
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 10 10:50:01 2001
> >I wonder mainly how they make the clip work. Other
than that, I could see it working, even though it
reeks of Hollywood a bit too much for my taste :)
>
> Hmh, there are clips using thin plates of metal
sheet to hold the rounds under pressure, this could
work ... the sheet is rolled together, and when rounds
are fired, expands.
> Arclight

But wouldn't a metal detector pick that up (which is
the point here)?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 10 10:55:01 2001
At 15:48 10.08.2001 +0100, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > Hmh, there are clips using thin plates of metal
>sheet to hold the rounds under pressure, this could
>work ... the sheet is rolled together, and when rounds
>are fired, expands.
> > Arclight
>
>But wouldn't a metal detector pick that up (which is
>the point here)?

Sure. But this method might be easier to build a clip when using only
plastics ;)

Arclight
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (C J Tipton)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 10 14:25:00 2001
On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 02:50:11 +0100 (BST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> Ooo, one question comes to mind.
>
> Assuming you're in a situation where you know that the
> only thing you have to worry about are metal
> detectors. You know there are no x-ray scanners and
> you won't be physically searched. Does anyone know of
> a way you could carry a gun (y'know, inside something
> or other) that would ensure a MAD wouldn't detect it?

Most places you could enter with a bag of stuff will have an X-ray to
scan the bag in addition to a metal detector, assuming that security is
really an issue. So obviously your trying to get this into a club or some
other kind of one shot security place. Your options are:
1. Have a gun built out of a laminated plastic or ceramic, base it on a
pepper box design(a lengthened revolver chamber which substitutes for a
barrel), load it with caseless ammo made of anything but metal
(my obvious favorite being ice, but that creates other problems), and
walk in carrying the gun and several extra chambers. Do yourself a favor
with this one and don't do anything to provoke a search, like wearing a
metal belt buckle, having a metal plate in your head, etc.
2.Build a gun with a tractor feed clip arrangement (eliminating the need
for a magazine spring). Obviously you want to use all ceramics and
plastics, and of course caseless ammo. Do not provoke a search, as above.
3.Cut the crap and use ceramic knives. By definition, they should be
dykote-able. Again, do not provoke a search.
4. If by some chance you actually do have a metal plate in your head(or
elsewhere), you will provoke a physical search unless you manage to bluff
your way past by convincing security that they needn't search you further
because you've got a metal plate in your head. As you will probably fail
at this difficult bluff, there is only one real recourse left to you:
Leave the guns and knives at home and learn some adequate hand to hand
combat skills, and stop believing that every exercise in your chosen
profession must include a weapon other than yourself.

Cowboy(knows KUNG FU)
CJ
Arkades@****.com

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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 00:20:01 2001
>Gun question, guys...:)
>
>Guns like Glocks and the Infiltrator and Puzzler from
>Cannon Companion, that are non-metallic - how exactly
>do they work? I mean, in the real world, what's a
>Glock made out of that it doesn't show up on metal
>detectors?

In the real world, Glock handguns have a frame made of (I believe) a fiber
reinforce polycarbon. Its basically a really stiff, durable plastic. The
most similar plastic I've seen is used in the structure that holds the
wheels on certain high quality inline skates.
However, that is just the frame (and most of the trigger mechanism, slide,
etc). The barrel, slide spring, and other highly stressed componats that
need to be flexable or hard are still made from normal metal, and Glocks
show up just fine on metal detectors.

>Also, what about ammo and clips? I'd presume that the
>clips are made out of the same stuff as the guns.

Yes. Actually, they are made from pretty normal plastic, not even the fancy
stuff used in the frame. AFAIK, the spring used to push up the bullets is a
plain old metal spring.

> As
>for the bullets, here's my understanding: casings are
>typically brass, bullets are typically lead. Neither
>metal is ferrous. Metal detectors are actually MADs -
>Magnetic Anomaly Detectors - they detect ferrous
>materials. The ammo therefore won't be detected
>because it's non-ferrous. Is this correct, or is my
>recollection of high school science even worse than I
>thought it was? ;)

MAD scanners detect alterations in a magnetic field. Any conductive
material moving through a magnetic field will have an induced current, which
causes it to interact with and alter the magnetic field. Ferrous metals
aren't any easier or harder to detect- its mostly the cross sectional size
of the conductive material that matters. I once got nearly got
stripsearched
because I had a mylar foil packet in my back pocket that was setting off an
airport metal detector, and didn't know it was there. The gaurds were
patting me down, couldn't feal anything, I was saying I didn't have
anything, they figure I must have a gun hidden somewere really clever...

-Mongoose
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 05:50:01 2001
In article <007001c12220$a6a1bd40$9dfc5486@****>, Sebastian Wiers
<m0ng005e@*****.com> writes
>In the real world, Glock handguns have a frame made of (I believe) a fiber
>reinforce polycarbon. Its basically a really stiff, durable plastic. The
>most similar plastic I've seen is used in the structure that holds the
>wheels on certain high quality inline skates.
>However, that is just the frame (and most of the trigger mechanism, slide,
>etc). The barrel, slide spring, and other highly stressed componats that
>need to be flexable or hard are still made from normal metal, and Glocks
>show up just fine on metal detectors.

Also, the polymer frame has metal inserts (the slide rail and a panel
for the serial number), and the plastic itself contains a compound that
makes it opaque to X-rays.

Used to own one, so I know a reasonable amount about Glocks :)


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 05:55:01 2001
In article <20010809142939.46088.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Out of curiousity, are there any completely
>non-metallic guns in existence today?

Not that I know of.

<re. magazines>
>What do Glocks use, do you know?

The standard Glock magazines are plastic with metal wire springs. Some
companies made steel magazines and others will sell you metal weights
for the base, both intended to help the magazine fall free when released
rather than be retained (makes for slightly faster reloads during
Practical Pistol matches)

>Of course...what I meant was 'typical' ammo. Regular
>ammo, to use the SR term. :) Assuming it's cased, it'd
>be brass and lead - caseless and it's just the lead
>bullet itself.

Plus metallic bits like the primer and booster cup. (Caseless ammo is a
lot more complex than just a lump of propellant glued together)

Typical firing sequence for caseless ammo: firing pin hits the primer in
the base of the round, which ignites. It's set in a copper cup, which
hugs the base of the bullet and contains a booster charge: this fires
the bullet into the barrel, sealing the chamber. Once the barrel's
sealed and the bullet is seated, the flash from the booster cup is
igniting the rest of the propellant, generating hot gas which forces the
bullet down the barrel (with the primer and booster cup being blown
clear too).

>Obviously, steel penetrators would show
>up on a metal detector, but what about the other kinds?

Just about any metallic penetrator would register. You might be able to
do something with ceramic bullets in plastic sabots, but they'd be
pricey.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 06:10:01 2001
According to Arclight, on Fri, 10 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Hmh, there are clips using thin plates of metal sheet to hold the rounds
> under pressure, this could work ... the sheet is rolled together, and when
> rounds are fired, expands.

You mean leaf springs? Sure, but it's still a fairly large mass of steel
that would show up on a metal detector.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 11:50:01 2001
> 2.Build a gun with a tractor feed clip arrangement
(eliminating the need for a magazine spring).
Obviously you want to use all ceramics and plastics,
and of course caseless ammo. Do not provoke a search,
as above.
<snipt!(TM)>
> Cowboy(knows KUNG FU)
> CJ

Tractor feed arrangement? Could you explain to this
poor ignoramus what that is?

Oh, and don't worry - when I'm playing the game, not
contemplating hypotheticals, I never rely on having to
have a gun. The percentages are against you. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 11:50:06 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Just about any metallic penetrator would register.
You might be able to do something with ceramic bullets
in plastic sabots, but they'd be pricey.
> Paul J. Adam

Okay then...say price is not an object - the only
object is carrying an assembled pistol through x-ray
scanners and metal detectors. Is it possible - and how
would you go about accomplishing it?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 12:15:02 2001
On 8/11/01 10:46 am, Rand Ratinac said:

><snipt!(TM)>
>> Just about any metallic penetrator would register.
>You might be able to do something with ceramic bullets
>in plastic sabots, but they'd be pricey.
>> Paul J. Adam
>
>Okay then...say price is not an object - the only
>object is carrying an assembled pistol through x-ray
>scanners and metal detectors. Is it possible - and how
>would you go about accomplishing it?
>


In situations like this always go after the weakest link of any security
system. Do a little Human Factors Engineering and
bribe/blackmale/threaten a guard to "not notice" the gun showing up on
his X-Ray machine. It is much easier to convince someone that it is in
their best interest that you meet your goals than it is to defeat an
arbitrarily good hogh tech scanning system.


Steve
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 13:40:22 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Sat, 11 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> Tractor feed arrangement? Could you explain to this
> poor ignoramus what that is?

I think what he means is a mechanism that pull a round out of the magazine
every time the weapon is cycled, instead of using a spring to push it out
of the magazine into the working parts' way. A bit like the way a belt-fed
weapon works, but with a magazine instead of a belt.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 22:10:01 2001
> > Tractor feed arrangement? Could you explain to
this poor ignoramus what that is?
>
> I think what he means is a mechanism that pull a
round out of the magazine every time the weapon is
cycled, instead of using a spring to push it out of
the magazine into the working parts' way. A bit like
the way a belt-fed weapon works, but with a magazine
instead of a belt.
> Gurth@******.nl -

So you'd actually have a miniature linked belt inside
the pistol that is fed through and pulls the bullets
along? Has anyone ever done anything like this before
(besides regular belts, of course)? How would loading
a new clip work? I mean, with regular belts you have
to feed the belt in - could the same effect be
achieved by simply slapping a clip in?

Which brings to mind that marvellous minigun from
Terminator 2. :) IIRC, that had some kind of steel
case around the belt. What is that thing, is it
similar to what we're talking about here and how does
it work? Anyone?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sat Aug 11 22:50:01 2001
> Which brings to mind that marvellous minigun from
> Terminator 2. :) IIRC, that had some kind of steel
> case around the belt. What is that thing, is it
> similar to what we're talking about here and how does
> it work? Anyone?
>
AFAIK it was just an ammo guide, one of the larger problems you
have with man portable weapons is the belt not feeding straight
and either jamming or breaking, both problems would probably be
amplified in an extremely high rate of fire weapon like a rotary
weapon.
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sun Aug 12 02:05:00 2001
[Rand Ratinac] writes:

> Or like the Puzzler and Infiltrator, make them out of
> polyresin (whatever that is) and use Hi-C rounds? :)
>
> Would that actually work, or do you think that's
> another "cool in fiction, never gonna happen in real
> life" things?

Such things are probably quite technically possible. The major problems I can
see are the components that have to be able to withstand the high pressures,
temperatures, and forces inside the weapon's firing chamber and mechanism.
Pretty much all plastics do not have the strength, stiffness, or temperature
tolerance to withstand such conditions. OTOH, some polymers have very high
temperature capabilities, for example. No polymers that come to mind at the
moment have either the strength or stiffness of steel, which is normally
used in these high stress components in firearms. High durability polymer
components could probably be fabricated, but their life would be very
limited before they deformed from high pressures/impact/temperature etc.

Ceramics have very high strength and stiffness, too, and are not going to
set off MAD scanners. They can also stand up to very high temperatures.
OTOH, they also tend to be very brittle, so using them in explosive
combustion chambers like a weapons firing chamber or in high impact
applications such as a firing pin may not be very advisable.

A composite of primarily ceramic with a small polymer addition might work,
though. Try making the high performance components out of highly densified
yttria stabilised zirconia or something similar, with
veins/layers/fibres/bubbles or something of a high temperature plastic. The
plastic would act as a sort of shock adsorber when then firing pin hit the
bullet, and also allow the firing chamber to flex a little when the
propellant detonated (but not enough to throw off the dimensions of the
chamber and ruin the sealing). This type of adsorption technique is why cast
iron is used as base plates in pianos - the graphite nodules in the iron
dampen the sound vibrations quickly, and allow for purer sound.

It might be possible to use elctrically detonated caseless ammunition to
avoid any metallic components in the ammunition, too. Others know more about
this than I, though.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sun Aug 12 07:20:06 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Sun, 12 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> So you'd actually have a miniature linked belt inside
> the pistol that is fed through and pulls the bullets
> along? Has anyone ever done anything like this before
> (besides regular belts, of course)? How would loading
> a new clip work? I mean, with regular belts you have
> to feed the belt in - could the same effect be
> achieved by simply slapping a clip in?

I think so, but it might be somewhat bulky. One way I can think of is to do
it like Hotchkiss machine guns (of around 1900-1940) worked: the cartridges
were held in a metal strip that was pulled through the gun. Not unlike a
belt in principle, except you've got a rigid strip moving from left to
right through the weapon. This would be possible for a pistol, too,
especially when using caseless ammo, but you'd have the strip coming out
the top of the weapon every time you fire a shot.

> Which brings to mind that marvellous minigun from
> Terminator 2. :) IIRC, that had some kind of steel
> case around the belt. What is that thing, is it
> similar to what we're talking about here and how does
> it work? Anyone?

Those are mostly guides for the belt to run through, so it doesn't snag on
anything. Just about all automatic weapons on vehicle mounts have some
variation on this, often more or less the type seen in T2. With automatic
weapons that fire unbelted ammo, the guide actually makes sure the rounds
get to the weapon.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sun Aug 12 09:10:01 2001
> I think so, but it might be somewhat bulky. One way
I can think of is to do it like Hotchkiss machine guns
(of around 1900-1940) worked: the cartridges were held
in a metal strip that was pulled through the gun. Not
unlike a belt in principle, except you've got a rigid
strip moving from left to right through the weapon.
This would be possible for a pistol, too, especially
when using caseless ammo, but you'd have the strip
coming out the top of the weapon every time you fire a
shot.

Probably a small price to pay in a situation where it
would be appropriate.

> Those are mostly guides for the belt to run through,
so it doesn't snag on anything. Just about all
automatic weapons on vehicle mounts have some
variation on this, often more or less the type seen in
T2. With automatic weapons that fire unbelted ammo,
the guide actually makes sure the rounds get to the
weapon.
> Gurth@******.nl -

Mmmmm...are these things ever armoured? Do they help
with jamming as well?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sun Aug 12 13:35:06 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Sun, 12 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

[possible springless pistol mechanism]
> Probably a small price to pay in a situation where it
> would be appropriate.

I'd still go with the revolver or break-open weapon, though. Much less
prone to failure -- seeing as how the weapon most likely wouldn't be all
that reliable as it is, adding yet another thing that could go wrong seems
like a none-too-smart idea.

[belt feed guides]
> Mmmmm...are these things ever armoured?

The ones you're talking about are, AFAIK, just ordinary steel brackets that
link together to form an articulated chute. No reason why you couldn't make
them from armor-quality steel, or add armor plating around them, though
(except that when you add armor around them, they become inflexible, while
if you make them from armor steel there will still be plenty of holes in
them).

> Do they help with jamming as well?

Yes, because they ensure the belt goes into the weapon the right way,
without any twists, turns or sharp bends that might cause it to jam, as
well as keeping the belt clear of the larger types of obstructions (tree
branches, large chunks of debris, other ammo belts, etc.).

The only portable weapon type in SR that I can see using these, though, is
the LMG minigun, as anything else that's belt-fed and portable will lose a
lot of that portability by adding a feed chute. For vehicle mounts, you can
expect something like this to be standard.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Tot straks en poppelepee maar weer.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Sun Aug 12 22:30:02 2001
> I'd still go with the revolver or break-open weapon,
though. Much less prone to failure -- seeing as how
the weapon most likely wouldn't be all that reliable
as it is, adding yet another thing that could go wrong
seems like a none-too-smart idea.

A ceramic revolver...I knew there was something my
brother was good for besides making toilets...;)

> The ones you're talking about are, AFAIK, just
ordinary steel brackets that link together to form an
articulated chute. No reason why you couldn't make
them from armor-quality steel, or add armor plating
around them, though (except that when you add armor
around them, they become inflexible, while if you make
them from armor steel there will still be plenty of
holes in them).

'Kay. Neat. :)

> Yes, because they ensure the belt goes into the
weapon the right way, without any twists, turns or
sharp bends that might cause it to jam, as well as
keeping the belt clear of the larger types of
obstructions (tree branches, large chunks of debris,
other ammo belts, etc.).
>
> The only portable weapon type in SR that I can see
using these, though, is the LMG minigun, as anything
else that's belt-fed and portable will lose a lot of
that portability by adding a feed chute. For vehicle
mounts, you can expect something like this to be
standard.
> Gurth@******.nl -

What about guys in military grade armour? I'm seeing
it kinda as having weapons of assault rifle size or
bigger (modified to use belts if necessary) with a
backpack 'ammo bin' and one of these feed chutes going
from the pack to the gun, making it a LONG time before
they'd have to reload. Good idea? Looks cool, but
stupid idea? :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Mon Aug 13 05:45:05 2001
According to Rand Ratinac, on Mon, 13 Aug 2001 the word on the street was...

> > The only portable weapon type in SR that I can see
> > using these, though, is the LMG minigun, as anything
> > else that's belt-fed and portable will lose a lot of
> > that portability by adding a feed chute.

What I meant to add here is something along the lines of, "A minigun is
heavy and bulky enough already that some feed chutes won't matter much
anyway."

> What about guys in military grade armour? I'm seeing
> it kinda as having weapons of assault rifle size or
> bigger (modified to use belts if necessary) with a
> backpack 'ammo bin' and one of these feed chutes going
> from the pack to the gun, making it a LONG time before
> they'd have to reload. Good idea? Looks cool, but
> stupid idea? :)

That'd probably be a good idea, yes. Like you say, it'd allow them to
carry a large ammo supply and feed it from an awkward direction (behind the
weapon and the firer's body) without jamming. OTOH you'll have those feed
chutes to keep from snagging on all sorts of things, so you'd still have to
be careful, I think.

--
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Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Mon Aug 13 08:05:04 2001
> > What about guys in military grade armour? I'm
seeing it kinda as having weapons of assault rifle
size or bigger (modified to use belts if necessary)
with a backpack 'ammo bin' and one of these feed
chutes going from the pack to the gun, making it a
LONG time before they'd have to reload. Good idea?
Looks cool, but stupid idea? :)
>
> That'd probably be a good idea, yes. Like you say,
it'd allow them to carry a large ammo supply and feed
it from an awkward direction (behind the weapon and
the firer's body) without jamming. OTOH you'll have
those feed chutes to keep from snagging on all sorts
of things, so you'd still have to be careful, I think.
> Gurth@******.nl -

So it'd make sense for the chute to stick close to the
user's body as much as possible, to prevent it waving
around and catching on things, but not so close as to
be restrictive, or get in the way. Hmmm...possibly an
over the shoulder arrangement...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (C J Tipton)
Subject: Synthetics and the shadows...
Date: Fri Aug 17 15:00:18 2001
On Sat, 11 Aug 2001 19:36:02 +0200 Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> writes:
> According to Rand Ratinac, on Sat, 11 Aug 2001 the word on the street
> was...
> > Tractor feed arrangement? Could you explain to this
> > poor ignoramus what that is?
>
> I think what he means is a mechanism that pull a round out of the
> magazine
> every time the weapon is cycled, instead of using a spring to push
> it out
> of the magazine into the working parts' way. A bit like the way a
> belt-fed
> weapon works, but with a magazine instead of a belt.
> Gurth@******.nl -
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html


You are Correct, Sir! A belt feed is one of several types of tractor feed
ammo arrangements.
Generally not practical in a hand gun due to the size of the mechanism,
but years ago I read about a gun in some bit of fiction or another that
fired needles with a chemical propellant mounted in the base which was
ignited by electric charge. The needles were loaded into a belt which was
then placed in a box magazine which fed into the butt of the weapon. I
thought this was a pretty nifty idea, as a number of belt fed machine
guns have very similar "belt holders", designed to enable a single person
to effectively fire the weapon without needing another moron who does
nothing but feed the pig ammo. Seeing it applied to something on a
smaller scale was cool.
Some weapons that use "stripper clips" also use a tractor mechanism, as
has already been mentioned, however it bears noting that some of the very
first machine guns used a tractor feed of an entirely different type: The
Gravity Feed magazine, aka drop box magazine. Once the first round was
fired (and the case hopefully extracted), gravity would be nice enough to
pull another round down into the chamber.
Very prone to jamming, but it certainly wouldn't require metal parts to
duplicate 2060 style.

Cowboy(still wants his blue steel Warhawks)
CJ
Arkades@****.com
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