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Message no. 1
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:51:50 +0000
and thus did bryan.covington@****.COM speak on 23 Jul 98 at 14:13:

[instaling bio/cyberware]
> I'm gonna agree here. I think as players and GM's we
> tend to overlook the trauma of having parts added to or removed from you
> body. When your arm gets chopped off that's one thing but just from
> fear? That's a serious emotional problem.

Yeah, well hardly any of the suggested options we discussed here
require much lopping, chopping or mauling.

I cannot predict the acceptance level for mods in 205X apart from
using extrapolations based on current trends, but it's likewise
unrealistic to project current ethics onto acceptance levels in 205X.

There are two things here, first the size and the invasiveness of the
replacement and second the type of replacement. Things like cyberarms
and their ilk will have a higher aversion value in Jane Normal's
eyes, but a relatively small mod, like a datajack can be pretty
normal. It's small, increases your productivity immediately and it
doesn't have much effect essence wise. I can see companies offering
to finance, co-finance, or offer a payment scheme for workers that
want to go for a jack. Same thing with some of the other mods:
memory, math-spu (obligatory for accountants), and of course
softlinks. Fairly invisible, small essence cost, cheap and as far as
I can judge very acceptable.

Likewise I can see specialists being equipped with some of the more
specific cyber: A chemist would benefit greatly from the whole range
of gas spectrometers, chemical analyzers, olfactory boosters,
softlinks to boost her skill sets, etc. Company drivers/pilots, apart
from being bodyguards, get a radio and an orientation unit with high
detail maps to plan escape routes, etc. Corp secretary gets a
Commlink, phone receiver, memory and maybe a noise filter. etc. etc.
There are hundreds of ways which small cyber can be used in
relatively inexpensive ways to enhance the productivity of the
normal employee. Put a clause in their contract that they have to
give it back upon termination of the contract and you have an extra
incentive to keep them in the corporation.
Cyber has to be more common than the 1 in 100 that Bandit reported,
simply because it makes economic sense. And judging from myself I
would be quite happy to get them myself right after 2011 and a magic
test.

Bioware is even less invasive for non-magicians, so instead of
replacing organs, it's just an enhancement. Items like the enhanced
articulation probably are common treatment for arthritis and forms of
rheumatism, mnemonic enhancers could help against Alzheimers (if
there isn't a solution for it already), tracheal filters could be
standard issue in case of inhalation related allergies. The only
acceptance problems I can see are with the obvious combat related
items like orthoskin, adrenal pump, etc. Although in most cases the
mod won't be obvious to the on-looker, those are drastic changes with
definite set backs so a person might think twice before opting for
any of those. But if it wasn't for the high price, people would line
up for a cerebral booster operation, get a few levels of mnemonic
enhancers (oh, what I wouldn't give for those...) and one of the
items to help you fight common diseases. The muscle mod would be a
favourite with the lazy arnie-wannabies again if it wasn't for the
high cost.

These items don't change yourself or the way people look at you, they
just enhance your abilities. And with the discussion today raging
over whether genetics will eventually result in a class of
super-humans (all right Brian, super-(meta)humans in SR's case :P )
it shows that a lot of people realize that once the possibility is
there to modify your kid or yourself into something better, smarter
and perfect looking, there are loads of people who want to do it. And
in my opinion it will be the same with cyber/bioware as long as the
effects are not de-humanizing or have negative side effects.
What it boils down to is of course who can afford it, but the Seattle
book lists at least a bunch of "family style" and "no frills" body
shops, which indicates a fairly general acceptance.


Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:13:10 -0400
At 11:51 AM 7/24/98 +0000, you wrote:
>and thus did bryan.covington@****.COM speak on 23 Jul 98 at 14:13:
>
>[instaling bio/cyberware]
>> I'm gonna agree here. I think as players and GM's we
>> tend to overlook the trauma of having parts added to or removed from you
>> body. When your arm gets chopped off that's one thing but just from
>> fear? That's a serious emotional problem.
>
>Yeah, well hardly any of the suggested options we discussed here
>require much lopping, chopping or mauling.

Not much lopping, but some might say significant mauling.

>memory, math-spu (obligatory for accountants)

See, there you go actually. Adding cyberware is a competitive advantage in
many instances. It's not that people necessarily *want* that datajack or
Math SPU, it's that they feel they *have* to have it to remain competitive,
to retain that edge, regardless of what else that 'ware might do to them.

Given the choice, I'm not sure many people at all would opt to go under the
knife. I think most folks, even in the shadows, feel obligated to do it
just so they can do their job at least good enough not to get fired.

Think about speed increases in the shadows. It gives an edge to the first
person to have them. This causes others to find some way to speed up their
reflexes too, so at least they are on even footing. It's an arms race
essentially, to continually retain the edge.

Same would likely be true in the megacorporate world. A datajack and
memory to become more efficient at processing things. Tailored Pheremones
to become more charming. Various brain enhancers to become smarter than
your competitors, not in another business, but in your own office. Audio
enhancements to hear the juicy gossip which can be a weapon.

But you know what? Few business people go that far, and it's not just
because of cost issues. There's got to still be a general reluctance to go
under the knife among the general public, psycho shadowrunners aside.
There's got to be a fear of the dehumanizing affects of implanting metal
into someone.


>replacing organs, it's just an enhancement. Items like the enhanced
>articulation probably are common treatment for arthritis and forms of
>rheumatism, mnemonic enhancers could help against Alzheimers (if
>there isn't a solution for it already), tracheal filters could be
>standard issue in case of inhalation related allergies.

And it's likely that's where those applications actually arose from. Using
bioware or cyberware to cure a condition is one thing. Using it to become
more than human is something else.

>it shows that a lot of people realize that once the possibility is
>there to modify your kid or yourself into something better, smarter
>and perfect looking, there are loads of people who want to do it.

But there are loads more that are terrified about the entire concept.
Would *I* have a problem flipping a few genes to try and make my baby
"better"? As of this moment, being single and nowhere near fatherhood,
sure I would. But I'm in a distinct minority with this view.

>What it boils down to is of course who can afford it, but the Seattle
>book lists at least a bunch of "family style" and "no frills" body
>shops, which indicates a fairly general acceptance.

Cyberware, in general, probably does have general acceptance. That
*doesn't* mean that you would accept having it installed yourself or accept
your friend if they had 'ware installed. Think about tattoos for a moment;
the idea and concept is widespread and accepted. But there are plenty of
people who would never get a tattoo themself and would think less of
someone that had a tattoo.

Maybe you oughta either write this up for you own web page or allow Blaze
or I to put it up. Would fit in great with either of our sites, but you
might want to host it yourself.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 3
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:06:24 EDT
In a message dated 7/24/98 6:53:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chimerae@***.IE
writes:

> Cyber has to be more common than the 1 in 100 that Bandit reported,
> simply because it makes economic sense. And judging from myself I
> would be quite happy to get them myself right after 2011 and a magic
> test.

Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population is
uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.

-Bandit
Message no. 4
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:42:28 +0800
On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:13:10 -0400, Erik Jameson wrote:

>But there are loads more that are terrified about the entire concept.
>Would *I* have a problem flipping a few genes to try and make my baby
>"better"? As of this moment, being single and nowhere near fatherhood,
>sure I would. But I'm in a distinct minority with this view.


I am married, and have determined that I will not have kids until I CAN do this. My wife
suffers from a number of minor health problems that are mostly genetic in nature, and I
do not want to wish these on any potential offspring.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com

Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.

Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:54:44 +0100
M. Sean Martinez said on 14:06/24 Jul 98,...

> Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population is
> uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.

If you just look at the costs involved, it's easily understandable. A
datajack cost 1000 nuyen, which about doubles if you include
surgery and hospitalization costs. I don't think many people
today spend US$2000 without seriously thinking about what
they're spending it on, and whether they really need it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Asher <asrosenberg@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:16:49 +0300
On 25 Jul 98 at 11:54, Gurth wrote:

> If you just look at the costs involved, it's easily understandable. A
> datajack cost 1000 nuyen, which about doubles if you include
> surgery and hospitalization costs. I don't think many people
> today spend US$2000 without seriously thinking about what
> they're spending it on, and whether they really need it.

$2000 is about the cost of a "business desktop" here. (i.e. the type
of system most businesses will buy to put on an employee's desktop.
Not a top of the line 400MHZ P2, but not a Celeron or P75, either.)
It's also towards the upper end of the price range for a home PC
you'd find at a CompUSA, or other computer store.

Considering how prevalent computers are today, especially in the
workplace, I don't see the 2000 nuyen price tag as being much of a
limiting factor.

On 26 Jul 98 at 16:01, Avenger wrote:

> There is always the possibility that by "uncybered" FASA are not
> including the datajack. Datajacks are described in several places
> as being used to interface with programmable house modules, such as
> coffee machines, cookers, trid sets etc. It may be that the
> datajack as being the most versatile of units to have implanted and
> one of the cheapest doesn't come into the equation, but that the
> comment is aimed at those units that augment the person beyond their
> normal capability, such as limbs, wires, encephalon etc. I can
> think of at least four mods that don't come into this "augment"
> heading and therefore might qualify as "normal". After all there
> are 101 uses for a datajack - in fact probably more.

Now, this I like. Only 1% of people have the fancy stuff, but a lot
more have some of the basic mods, which are now so common,
most people in 205x don't even think of them as "really" being
cyberware.
Message no. 7
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 22:22:34 +0100
In article <01IZV2B4DHKY906UFV@******.com>, Asher
<asrosenberg@******.COM> writes
>On 26 Jul 98 at 16:01, Avenger wrote:
>
>> normal capability, such as limbs, wires, encephalon etc. I can
>> think of at least four mods that don't come into this "augment"
>> heading and therefore might qualify as "normal". After all there
>> are 101 uses for a datajack - in fact probably more.
>
>Now, this I like. Only 1% of people have the fancy stuff, but a lot
>more have some of the basic mods, which are now so common,
>most people in 205x don't even think of them as "really" being
>cyberware.

The way I look at is the casualness of current "toys". For instance
cell phones. A few years ago they were a "symbol" now they're a part of
everyday life. I don't follow that using a datajack would "phase" the
user out of reality, that's something more likely to be associated with
full decking specifically as that includes a greater amount of headware
and greater involvement than talking to your "word recognition software"
or coffee pot. :) Datajacks are so useful and so versatile. OK they're
expensive, but is a thousand nuyen really that much? After all, how
much are things like Psion computers, good cell phones, electronic
organisers etc? The jack invades a person's skull, it is connected to a
certain amount of electronics which interface with the brain. The jack
itself might only cost 200 nuyen, the rest is in the delicate operation
to install it - again, the surgery costs announced in FASA material,
I've always associated with "augment" mods, not things I consider as
everyday tools.

Think about it. Who the heck would need a good stenographer, when the
person can interface with the typewriter/computer and "think" the letter
to the machine - using a linguasoft in a chip jack would enable them to
write in a foreign language, albeit it in a more formal manner
(depending on the rating of the soft).

--
Avenger
http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm
(Newbies Survival Guide to Stk & SR stuff)
http://freespace.virgin.net/p.siems/index.htm
(UK Survival Guide, SR Guide to the Oceans.)
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:12:27 +0100
Asher said on 13:16/26 Jul 98,...

> $2000 is about the cost of a "business desktop" here. (i.e. the type
> of system most businesses will buy to put on an employee's desktop.
> Not a top of the line 400MHZ P2, but not a Celeron or P75, either.)
> It's also towards the upper end of the price range for a home PC
> you'd find at a CompUSA, or other computer store.
>
> Considering how prevalent computers are today, especially in the
> workplace, I don't see the 2000 nuyen price tag as being much of a
> limiting factor.

Not for any reasonable-sized corporation, no. But I can't picture
many people walking along the street and stepping into a Body +
Tech because they suddenly decided to get a datajack. If their
employer is paying for it, or if it's necessary for their job, then I
don't see all that many problems with it (except ethical ones of
the "Is it right to drill a hole in my skull?" variety which everyone
has to solve for themselves).

I should also add that the datajack was an example, being one of
the cheapest pieces of cyberware I could remember off-hand.
More expensive items are out of the reach of most people IMO,
even if they are very useful to them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:17:16 -0300
At 11:54 25/07/98 +0100, you wrote:
>M. Sean Martinez said on 14:06/24 Jul 98,...
>
>> Under the pedestrain contact it states that 99% of the population is
>> uncybered. It was a shock to me as well, but I could see it.
>
>If you just look at the costs involved, it's easily understandable. A
>datajack cost 1000 nuyen, which about doubles if you include
>surgery and hospitalization costs. I don't think many people
>today spend US$2000 without seriously thinking about what
>they're spending it on, and whether they really need it.

One of my characters got her datajack (her only piece of cyber) at age
21 as a present from her parents.
Some give cars, some computers, she got the jack : ) .

Bira
Message no. 10
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:06:13 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/1998 1:47:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:

> >If you just look at the costs involved, it's easily understandable. A
> >datajack cost 1000 nuyen, which about doubles if you include
> >surgery and hospitalization costs. I don't think many people
> >today spend US$2000 without seriously thinking about what
> >they're spending it on, and whether they really need it.
>
> One of my characters got her datajack (her only piece of cyber) at age
> 21 as a present from her parents.
> Some give cars, some computers, she got the jack : ) .
>
Hey, younger... Think of "Ferris Beuller" here..."I wanted a car, but my
sister got that, my parents gave me the computer...what do I want with a
computer???"

-K
Message no. 11
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:15:43 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-30 16:07:14 EDT, you write:

> > One of my characters got her datajack (her only piece of cyber) at age
> > 21 as a present from her parents.
> > Some give cars, some computers, she got the jack : ) .
> >
> Hey, younger... Think of "Ferris Beuller" here..."I wanted a car, but
my
> sister got that, my parents gave me the computer...what do I want with a
> computer???"

Actually, K, its "I asked for a car, I got a computer. How's that for being
born under a bad sign?"

Nexx, who used to watch that movie every time he got sick
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Taking Women Seriously / willingness to get bio/cyber
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:15:00 +0100
K is the Symbol said on 16:06/30 Jul 98,...

> Hey, younger... Think of "Ferris Beuller" here..."I wanted a car, but
my
> sister got that, my parents gave me the computer...what do I want with a
> computer???"

"_Nine_ times...!" 9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's pretty scary.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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