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Message no. 1
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject: Talismongers...
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:56:35 -0800
I'm thinking about using a Talismonger as a contact (which is really
good if you're a magic-user), and I'm trying to write a backround story for
her. But one thing was confusing me: do Talismongers need to be magically
active? Do they actually make the stuff they sell, or do they just know
someone who makes it, and they sell it? I thought I heard (or read)
somewhere that Talismongers can actually see the worth of a focus or fetish,
and if that's the case, then I would imagine they would have to be magically
active...now that I think about it, if they weren't magically active, and
just sold the stuff, then they would have no clue whether or not what they
were selling was authentic or just pretty baubles. Anyway, any have an
answer for this?

Christopher Hayes

(Previously known as Jag, Wynter, Lupo, and a few other dead runners.)

chris_hayes@*******.com

(Still looking for a deep and thoughtful .sig, or one to just make you fall

out of your seat laughing.)
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:03:02 +1000
Chris Hayes writes:
--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Thursday, 2 April 1998 10:56
Subject: Talismongers...


> I'm thinking about using a Talismonger as a contact (which is really
>good if you're a magic-user), and I'm trying to write a backround story for
>her. But one thing was confusing me:
> do Talismongers need to be magically active?

nope (though some are. If they aren't, they'll probably have a friend who
can at least astrally perceive, to help them identify and value magical
items)

> Do they actually make the stuff they sell, or do they just know
>someone who makes it, and they sell it?

It varies. Some will produce the goods themselves, others will be resellers.
In general, IMHO, talismongers collect the low-level magical stuff (ritual
materials, basic fetish type equipment, etc) themselves (this level of
enchanting can be done by anyone, not just magically active individuals).
They may make the odd focus themselves, but it's more likely that they
acquire them from other individuals (making a power focus and selling it
unbonded is a good way for a mage strapped on cash to get some). Enchanting
adepts are the most likely to do this. Note that supply would be low for
stuff like this, as it's not easy to make. Most would be custom orders.

> I thought I heard (or read)
>somewhere that Talismongers can actually see the worth of a focus or
fetish,
>and if that's the case, then I would imagine they would have to be
magically
>active...

A lot of talismongers in my game are New Age people. They wouldn't have a
clue about the magical powers of the stuff they sell, and probably sell a
lot of crystals to mage wannabes. The stuff they have would still be good
for ritual purposes and fetishes (repeat: you don't need to be magically
active for enchanting at that level), but I wouldn't trust them to supply
more powerful stuff. OTH, they could have a you-beaut power focus on the
back shelf collecting dust because they don't know how good it is.

>now that I think about it, if they weren't magically active, and
>just sold the stuff, then they would have no clue whether or not what they
>were selling was authentic or just pretty baubles. Anyway, any have an
>answer for this?


*grin* The best analogy I have for talismongers are rare-book sellers...
some know what they are doing, and they know the value of every book ever
printed to the nearest cent. Others don't have a clue, and will let you pick
up a first-ed copy of Dickens because it's got mold on the cover.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:13:27 -0500
A Talismonger doesn't *have* to be magically active, but the ability to
astrally assense sure would be nice for one.

I seem to recall that a non-magician can resort to a mundane skill to
determine if something is magical or what it can do...if my memory is
finally coming back to me, this is a skill that every Talismonger would
have. Or at worst, they'd have the Special Skill Evaluate Object (Magical).

But for the most part, a Talismonger is really nothing more than a highly
specialized Fixer. Where your normal Fixer will cultivate relationships
with weapons dealers and Mr. Johnsons and mercenaries and gangs and what
not, your normal Talismonger is going to work on relationships with
magicians, enchanters especially, and other "magic types." This is true
regardless of the Talismonger's magical abilities.

I think what prevents a Talismonger from selling useless baubles to
magicians (which *is* what they do to mundanes) is a couple of things.
First of all, the average buyer can assense and will be able to tell if
something is magical. Second, if the Talismonger gets screwed by some get
rich quick Enchanter, you can guarantee the Talismonger is going to put a
big hurt on the Enchanter in one way or another (freeze them out of
business, send leg-breakers, have a conjurer send some spirit leg-breakers,
etc.). Same sort of things that can happen if a Fixer gets the shaft from
one of their contacts.
Message no. 4
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:16:56 -0700
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>


>[D]o Talismongers need to be magically
>active? Do they actually make the stuff they sell, or do they just know
>someone who makes it, and they sell it?

Either/Or.. though I'd place more faith in those that I knew were magically
active since if you really really NEED that fetish, there's a chance your
magically active Talismonger will be able to make it.


> I thought I heard (or read)
>somewhere that Talismongers can actually see the worth of a focus or fetish,
>and if that's the case, then I would imagine they would have to be magically
>active...now that I think about it, if they weren't magically active, and
>just sold the stuff, then they would have no clue whether or not what they
>were selling was authentic or just pretty baubles.

There's also the Astral Sight edge from the companion, which would enable an
otherwise "mundane" to be able to pick the real stuff from the drek.

Finally, I suppose it's entirely possible that a mundane talismonger could be
very reliable, if it was someone with the right/reliable contacts (say a
former teacher of magic history)

-Karl
$.02?? You think it's worth *that* much?
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:27:01 +0100
Chris said on 16:56/ 1 Apr 98...

> I'm thinking about using a Talismonger as a contact (which is really
> good if you're a magic-user), and I'm trying to write a backround story for
> her. But one thing was confusing me: do Talismongers need to be magically
> active?

No. Some are, some aren't. I think most magically active talismongers
would be enchanting adepts, because they could sell what they make but
have little else they can do with their magical abilities, IMHO.

> I thought I heard (or read) somewhere that Talismongers can actually see
> the worth of a focus or fetish, and if that's the case, then I would
> imagine they would have to be magically active...now that I think about
> it, if they weren't magically active, and just sold the stuff, then they
> would have no clue whether or not what they were selling was authentic
> or just pretty baubles. Anyway, any have an answer for this?

Well, if the talismonger isn't magically active, they could work with
someone who is, and trust he or she doesn't deceive the talismonger. At
any rate, many talismongers sell junk to magical-wannabes, and probably
sell more of that than actual magic items. Also, anyone with Enchanting
skill can make fetishes, whether the enchanter is magically active or not.
Since most magicians will buy more fetishes than foci, this would help
them stay in business.

Although one thing that puzzles me a bit about talismongers: the price of
a good focus (any type) is several hundred thousand nuyen. Making one
doesn't take more than a few months, and costs the enchanter very little
money. So what is stopping them from making a focus every couple of
months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
very small, but even selling one would allow you to make that
round-the-world trip you always wanted but never had the money for...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:59:05 +0000
> Although one thing that puzzles me a bit about talismongers: the price of
> a good focus (any type) is several hundred thousand nuyen. Making one
> doesn't take more than a few months, and costs the enchanter very little
> money. So what is stopping them from making a focus every couple of
> months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
> time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
> very small, but even selling one would allow you to make that
> round-the-world trip you always wanted but never had the money for...

True. But how about the cost of security? Then there is the matter
of taxes and licensing. "Protection" monies. With this kind of
pressure, they can't leave until they sell 2 or 3 foci. :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:51:16 -0700
Gurth wrote:
/
/ Although one thing that puzzles me a bit about talismongers: the price of
/ a good focus (any type) is several hundred thousand nuyen. Making one
/ doesn't take more than a few months, and costs the enchanter very little
/ money. So what is stopping them from making a focus every couple of
/ months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
/ time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
/ very small,

Basic economic rules: A price for a product increases when the
demand is high and the supply is low. If the supply increases of
demand slumps off the price drops.

So, we must be missing something. If a focus is easy to make and the
demand is low then it doesn't add up.

Demand is definitely low. Even though most mages want foci, there
aren't enough mages provide the demand necessary.

Foci are easy to make and don't cost much to make, *if* you have the
skill.

The number of people with the required skills must be extremely low,
resulting in a low enough supply to push the prices up as high as
they are. It makes sense because magic hasn't been around all that
long. And maybe enchanters have an unspoken agreement about not
passing on their skills to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:02:05 +0000
David Buehrer wrote

> Gurth wrote:
> / months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
> / time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
> / very small,
>
> Basic economic rules: A price for a product increases when the
> demand is high and the supply is low. If the supply increases of
> demand slumps off the price drops.

IMO a too simplistic view. You always have to consider the "value" of
the goods and for what price talismongers are willing to sell their
Foci. Foci do cost Karma to creat, so talismongers won't go into a
"price war". And even worse, even though the creation time is not so
long, you won't earn much karma, while creating a focus. You'll have
to take some time afterwards to gain the new karma.

> The number of people with the required skills must be extremely low,
> resulting in a low enough supply to push the prices up as high as
> they are. It makes sense because magic hasn't been around all that
> long. And maybe enchanters have an unspoken agreement about not
> passing on their skills to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

And especially an agreement not to go into a pric war (see above) :-)

bye mike

---
Shadowrun Character Generator 1.3 released.
Goto: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/newreed/15
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:19:51 -0700
Mike Hartmann wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer wrote
/
/ > Gurth wrote:
/ > / months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
/ > / time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
/ > / very small,
/ >
/ > Basic economic rules: A price for a product increases when the
/ > demand is high and the supply is low. If the supply increases of
/ > demand slumps off the price drops.
/
/ IMO a too simplistic view.

Talk to my economics teachers :) And keep in mind that I did use the
word *basic*. Advanced economic theory takes all sorts of twists and
turns when you have to account for price setting, monopolies,
government interference, cultural aspects, advertisement campaigns,
etc. And that's not something that I want to get into.

/ Foci do cost Karma to create...
/ ...And even worse, even though the creation time is not so
/ long, you won't earn much karma, while creating a focus. You'll have
/ to take some time afterwards to gain the new karma.

Ah, that'd do it. Foci *aren't* easy to make. While the skills are
available and materials are cheap, karma isn't. Supply is low, the
price is high, fini.

As a side note, for the people that use "cash for karma" rules you
could look at the foci creation rules, subtract the ammount the
enchanter pays for time and materials, and you have the SR price of a
karma point.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:43:58 -0500
At 07:51 AM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:

>So, we must be missing something. If a focus is easy to make and the
>demand is low then it doesn't add up.
>
>Demand is definitely low. Even though most mages want foci, there
>aren't enough mages provide the demand necessary.

Demand low? I'm not so sure about that. Nearly every magician wants a
focus or two of *some* sort, even if it's just a dinky spell lock. Sure,
it's a specialized market, but every magician seems to think they have got
to have one. Think of it this way; there may only be 100 mages in a given
market, but there's at best 1 enchanter to service all of them. No way 1
enchanter can provide all the needs for 100 magicians.

>Foci are easy to make and don't cost much to make, *if* you have the
>skill.

Well, the high cost of karma was recently mentioned so they do have a real
cost far higher than what could be implied by the raw materials cost. And
some of those raw materials can be very difficult to find, such as
orichalcum or dragon nail clippings.

And the skill? How many PC magicians do you know that have the Enchanting
Skill? It's very often a luxury skill for the magician early in his
career, and even after several initiation grades and new spells and
increases to the core skills of sorcery, conjuring and magic theory,
Enchanting is likely to be no higher than 2 or 3. Karma is always far too
scarce for the magician to be spent frivolously and Enchanting is not a
skill that directly impacts the survival ability of the average magician,
PC or NPC.

You have to think that full magicians have better things to do than crank
our magic items for sale; any they do enchant are likely for themselves.
Probably only enchanting adepts (who have got to be the second rarest
magician in the SR world, behind only the supposedly extremely rare
physical magician) would be cranking out magic items. That's got to be a
pretty small number. Then the number with really good skill ratings (like
6+) have got to be very rare indeed and these are the guys that can make
the real kick-ass foci.

There's also, in addition to protection costs and bribes and such, the cost
of the Enchanting shop itself. A full permanent shop is what, something
like 100K?

I think it's mentioned in several places, especially fiction I think, that
a lot of magic shops and talismongers (and probably enchanters too) make
most of their day to day money by selling worthless charms to mundanes.
New age crystals to new agers, good luck charms, spirit shields to the
paranoid and stupid, "magic" books to the gullible and so on. Selling real
magic items probably allows them to buy more telesma, buy protection, pay
bribes and maybe even the occasional trip around the world.

>The number of people with the required skills must be extremely low,
>resulting in a low enough supply to push the prices up as high as
>they are. It makes sense because magic hasn't been around all that
>long. And maybe enchanters have an unspoken agreement about not
>passing on their skills to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

Well, I answered part of that above. Heck, maybe there is a society of
enchanters that works to protect their "profession" by keeping it as
exclusive as possible (which then makes it possible to charge outrageous
prices). Makes some sense to me. But then again, there could simply be so
few full-time enchanters out there simply aren't many teachers available.

Or it could have something to do with the fact that enchanting isn't the
sexiest and most exciting application of magic. I mean, if you had the
choice between slinging manabolts, living life on the edge and working in a
lab, mixing chemicals, slowly grinding karma into a focus, which would
*you* choose?

The lab might be cool for a day or two, but put me out in the thick of
things slinging magic dude.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:48:40 -0700
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ At 07:51 AM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
/
/ >So, we must be missing something. If a focus is easy to make and the
/ >demand is low then it doesn't add up.
/ >
/ >Demand is definitely low. Even though most mages want foci, there
/ >aren't enough mages provide the demand necessary.
/
/ Demand low? I'm not so sure about that. Nearly every magician wants a
/ focus or two of *some* sort, even if it's just a dinky spell lock.

Not in my game :) Foci are vulnerable to attack from astral space.
Also, the prices would put off most of the mage population. Sure,
shadowrunners can afford foci, but your typical wage mage can't.
Wanting a foci is one thing, actually being able to buy it is
another. I want a ferrari, but I can't afford it. My wanting a
ferrari isn't going to raise the prices.

/ >Foci are easy to make and don't cost much to make, *if* you have the
/ >skill.
/
/ Well, the high cost of karma was recently mentioned so they do have a real
/ cost far higher than what could be implied by the raw materials cost.

Yep. IMO that's the real reason for the high cost. It would also probably
result in a low number of talismongers too.

/ I think it's mentioned in several places, especially fiction I think, that
/ a lot of magic shops and talismongers (and probably enchanters too) make
/ most of their day to day money by selling worthless charms to mundanes.
/ New age crystals to new agers, good luck charms, spirit shields to the
/ paranoid and stupid, "magic" books to the gullible and so on. Selling real
/ magic items probably allows them to buy more telesma, buy protection, pay
/ bribes and maybe even the occasional trip around the world.

<chuckle> That's something that I'd never considered before. "For sale,
one monkey's paw. Normally it sells for seven drakmas, but because I'm in
a good mood today it's yours for five drakmas."

/ The lab might be cool for a day or two, but put me out in the thick of
/ things slinging magic dude.

Definitely.

-David
--
"Belief is a truth held in the mind.
Faith is a fire in the heart."
- Joseph F. Newton
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 12
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:21:21 EST
> Demand low? I'm not so sure about that. Nearly every magician
> wants a focus or two of *some* sort, even if it's just a dinky spell
> lock. Sure, it's a specialized market, but every magician seems to
> think they have got to have one. Think of it this way; there may
> only be 100 mages in a given market, but there's at best 1 enchanter
> to service all of them. No way 1 enchanter can provide all the
> needs for 100 magicians.

Hmm. My groups have included exactly three spell lock and a
power lock out of about....20 or so mages. Those were between two
characters. I dispute your "nearly every magician" statement. Mine
almost never do. Too Karma expensive. I'd prefer to Quicken, raise
skills and initiate. I can't misplace my initiation.

1 Talismonger, as a career talismonger, could indeed supply 100
magicians. (Depending, but also realize that few magicians can
afford the big stuff anyway)

> Or it could have something to do with the fact that enchanting isn't
> the sexiest and most exciting application of magic. I mean, if you
> had the choice between slinging manabolts, living life on the edge
> and working in a lab, mixing chemicals, slowly grinding karma into a
> focus, which would
> *you* choose?

Me? Well, seeing as how I intend to be happily married in a year,
I'll take the boring profitable job. As for that, how many of *US*
have TRIED to get into the special Forces (or whatever for our
respective countries)? I'm guessing quite a few of us like
excitment, but most of us value our safety too.

-=SwiftOne=-
Love has made me passive
...in some ways >:)
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:24:54 +0100
And verily, did Karl Low hastily scribble thusly...
|
|-----Original Message-----
|From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
|
|
|>[D]o Talismongers need to be magically
|>active? Do they actually make the stuff they sell, or do they just know
|>someone who makes it, and they sell it?
|
|Either/Or.. though I'd place more faith in those that I knew were magically
|active since if you really really NEED that fetish, there's a chance your
|magically active Talismonger will be able to make it.

And since when do you need to be magically active to make fetishes?
The enchantment skill is one of the few skills mundanes can have that're
concerned with magic....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:38:35 EST
> And since when do you need to be magically active to make fetishes?
> The enchantment skill is one of the few skills mundanes can have
> that're concerned with magic.... --

For fetishes, you are correct. However making foci requires you to
be magically active, although you can be an enchanting adept.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 15
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:53:36 +0100
And verily, did Brett Borger hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> And since when do you need to be magically active to make fetishes?
|> The enchantment skill is one of the few skills mundanes can have
|> that're concerned with magic.... --
|
|For fetishes, you are correct. However making foci requires you to
|be magically active, although you can be an enchanting adept.

Exactly my point...
You only need to have a magic rating if you want to start messing around
with Karma soaking items...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 16
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:11:46 -0500
At 03:21 PM 4/2/98 EST, you wrote:

>Hmm. My groups have included exactly three spell lock and a
>power lock out of about....20 or so mages. Those were between two
>characters. I dispute your "nearly every magician" statement. Mine
>almost never do. Too Karma expensive. I'd prefer to Quicken, raise
>skills and initiate. I can't misplace my initiation.

Interesting. I've been part of games in which some magicians jingled every
time they sneezed they had so many foci and locks. After that first lesson
in grounding, they kept them powered down until needed, but still.
Awakenings calls these guys mechanics, and has that Focus Addiction rule
(which toned things down, especially for me), but I still run across some
serious mechanics now and again.

And in nearly every game I've been a part of, the magician has *at least*
one magic item. The lock is most common, since it only costs One Karma and
allows non-Initiated mages a version of Quickening. Usually something like
Increased Reflexes or Armor gets locked down real fast.

And *every* magician I've *ever* come across wants a Power Focus of Rating
2 or better you can teach them to beg like a dog. The Power Focus is the
holy grail of magic items to magicians; Weapon Foci is the same thing to
most physical adepts.

So I would say that most, but not necessarily all, magicians regardless of
type want a magic item and are willing to work for it.

>1 Talismonger, as a career talismonger, could indeed supply 100
>magicians. (Depending, but also realize that few magicians can
>afford the big stuff anyway)

That's probably how things go. But I'm sure even the best Talismonger
can't just say, because demand may be low, "Oh, sure, I've got a sale on
Combat Spell Foci right now, 20% off. And I'll throw in the Armor spell
lock I just so happen to have in my pocket if you act right now!"

>Me? Well, seeing as how I intend to be happily married in a year,
>I'll take the boring profitable job. As for that, how many of *US*
>have TRIED to get into the special Forces (or whatever for our
>respective countries)? I'm guessing quite a few of us like
>excitement, but most of us value our safety too.

We all value our safety, but if we really had the choice, which would we
chose? I mean, seriously, a lot of gamers have a hard time doing a single
push-up; how are they supposed to go through Basic Training? If we had
what it takes both physically and mentally, I'd be willing to be a pretty
hefty percentage of us would go the Special Forces route, because of the
excitement/glamor/thrill/rush/whatever. I would; hell, I'm taking boxing
classes and if I thought for a second I had what it takes to fight
professionally, I would do it in a heartbeat. But with two concrete blocks
for feet and hands not much faster, I'll be lucky to win a few amateur
fights. So I have to stay in my "boring profitable job."

Erik J.


No .sig today. .Sig tomorrow. There's always a .sig tomorrow.
Message no. 17
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:12:08 -0500
At 12:48 PM 4/2/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Not in my game :) Foci are vulnerable to attack from astral space.
>Also, the prices would put off most of the mage population. Sure,
>shadowrunners can afford foci, but your typical wage mage can't.
>Wanting a foci is one thing, actually being able to buy it is
>another. I want a ferrari, but I can't afford it. My wanting a
>ferrari isn't going to raise the prices.

Actually, the fact that you, and a lot of other people, want a Ferrari
*does* raise the price of it. Desire is what allows things like Beany
Babies and Tickle-Me-Elmos to be as expensive as they have been. If I have
something you want so badly you can taste it, I can charge more for it than
if you had only a mild interest.

Cars like Ferrari's owe part of their price to the percieved desire for
them. If people suddenly decided they didn't like them anymore, you can be
sure prices would drop.

Yes, with a Ferrari you are also paying more because it is relatively rare
and for the craftsmanship and materials and the Ferrari name, but a piece
of that price tag is because the dealers know they can charge more for
something people have a strong desire for.

Another example. Two pairs of jeans, exactly alike. But Jnco jeans (they
are one the big makers of those huge baggy jeans that five people could fit
in; and my brother works in their art department) are the one's that are
considered cool. Lucky jeans are just as good, but lack the cache'. There
is a stronger desire for Jnco jeans, so retailers, if not Jnco itself, can
charge more despite the fact they are the exact same jeans.

><chuckle> That's something that I'd never considered before. "For sale,
>one monkey's paw. Normally it sells for seven drakmas, but because I'm in
>a good mood today it's yours for five drakmas."

Heh. Sounds about right to me.

"This is an ancient book of mysteries, translated direct from the original
Sumerian into modern English. The original is priceless; copies from the
Dark Ages cost millions of nuyen. But I'll part with this datachip for
only 20nY so that I can pass their priceless ancient wisdom on to you. Deal?"

Erik J.


No .sig today. .Sig tomorrow. There's always a .sig tomorrow.
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:41:09 +0100
David Buehrer said on 7:51/ 2 Apr 98...

> So, we must be missing something. If a focus is easy to make and the
> demand is low then it doesn't add up.

My point too. (I guess never taking economics in school means I have to
describe everything instead of saying it in a few words :)

> The number of people with the required skills must be extremely low,
> resulting in a low enough supply to push the prices up as high as
> they are. It makes sense because magic hasn't been around all that
> long. And maybe enchanters have an unspoken agreement about not
> passing on their skills to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

I can agree with the first bit, but the "unspoken agreement" I don't buy.
There would always be someone willing to teach someone else to do things,
unless there's some kind of organization breathing down their necks,
promising various penalties for teaching things to outsiders. And that
doesn't fit in with SR, IMHO -- sure, there may be magical groups that
only accept Enchanter adepts, but there's no such things as an
all-encompassing organization for _anything_ in SR.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Circumvent yourself.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:07:38 +0000
> And *every* magician I've *ever* come across wants a Power Focus of Rating
> 2 or better you can teach them to beg like a dog. The Power Focus is the
> holy grail of magic items to magicians; Weapon Foci is the same thing to
> most physical adepts.

I had one character that took a Power Focus 4 from an opponent that,
um, no longer needed it. I ended up selling it, because I didn't use
trinkets. My other mage character won't go for anything that isn't
at least a Rating 6 (and since I'm in a reasonable power level
campaign, this means I go without). Other players around me don't
think it's worth the Karma cost to get a only a few extra dice.

> So I would say that most, but not necessarily all, magicians regardless of
> type want a magic item and are willing to work for it.

Most: Okay. Want: Okay Work: How much? At most prices and Karmic
prices, it's doubtful.

> That's probably how things go. But I'm sure even the best Talismonger
> can't just say, because demand may be low, "Oh, sure, I've got a sale on
> Combat Spell Foci right now, 20% off. And I'll throw in the Armor spell
> lock I just so happen to have in my pocket if you act right now!"

Um. Okay, I have no troubles agreeing to this.

Say, this brings up another idea...how specifically do you guys refer
to magic? I'm considering magic all magical and foci references in
my game vague, since the characters don't have SR2 and Grimmy (just
the players...) Should I?

> push-up; how are they supposed to go through Basic Training? If we had
> what it takes both physically and mentally, I'd be willing to be a pretty
> hefty percentage of us would go the Special Forces route, because of the
> excitement/glamor/thrill/rush/whatever. I would; hell, I'm taking boxing
> classes and if I thought for a second I had what it takes to fight
> professionally, I would do it in a heartbeat. But with two concrete blocks
> for feet and hands not much faster, I'll be lucky to win a few amateur
> fights. So I have to stay in my "boring profitable job."

Erik, you are a T-type personality. :) To answer: I don't know. My
gaming group splits down the middle, but they're weird anyway.
Anyone else?

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:57:50 -0500
At 09:07 AM 4/3/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Say, this brings up another idea...how specifically do you guys refer
>to magic? I'm considering magic all magical and foci references in
>my game vague, since the characters don't have SR2 and Grimmy (just
>the players...) Should I?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. I've always played as if there was
a 205x version of the sourcebooks that the characters could access. I
mean, the PCs are supposed to know a lot about spellcasting, but what do we
know? The PCs know the in-game theory, the Players know the game rules.
By allowing the Players to know and use the books, I feel it's like
allowing the PCs to do those things they could do anyway (but we as players
don't know enough about the world to let them).

I hope that makes sense.

>> push-up; how are they supposed to go through Basic Training? If we had
>> what it takes both physically and mentally, I'd be willing to be a pretty
>> hefty percentage of us would go the Special Forces route, because of the
>> excitement/glamor/thrill/rush/whatever. I would; hell, I'm taking boxing
>> classes and if I thought for a second I had what it takes to fight
>> professionally, I would do it in a heartbeat. But with two concrete blocks
>> for feet and hands not much faster, I'll be lucky to win a few amateur
>> fights. So I have to stay in my "boring profitable job."
>
>Erik, you are a T-type personality. :) To answer: I don't know. My
>gaming group splits down the middle, but they're weird anyway.
>Anyone else?

Okay, I'll bite. I've heard of Type A and Type B personalities, but what's
a Type T?

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 21
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:57:57 EST
> I'm not sure what you are referring to. I've always played as if
> there was a 205x version of the sourcebooks that the characters
> could access. I mean, the PCs are supposed to know a lot about
> spellcasting, but what do we know? The PCs know the in-game theory,

Well, look at guns. In RL, you have to argue obscure measurments
than 90% of the population won't understand to see a difference
between a 7M handgun and a 6M one. (or even twixt two 9M's...)

I figure that not all spell formulae are the same. Mana Bolt, that
staple spell, has probably been done about 50 ways in SR. Thus, the
enemy doesn't "cast a manabolt at you, force 6", he "channels a
significant chunk of mana your way". It isn't a Spirit Focus 4, it's
"a earthen bowl etched with characters. Astrally, you see a webwork
of energies lying over it, a respectable amount, but not huge. The
energies appear to pierce astral space into somewhere beyond..."

Basically I'm trying to decide if the roleplaying benefit is worth
the frustration all around.

> >Erik, you are a T-type personality. :) To answer: I don't know. My
> >gaming group splits down the middle, but they're weird anyway.
> >Anyone else?
>
> Okay, I'll bite. I've heard of Type A and Type B personalities, but
> what's a Type T?

Thrill. The bungee jumpers, etc. It's been a bit of a buzz-phrase
lately.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 22
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:33:03 -0600
At 12:27 PM 98-04-02 +0100, you wrote:
>Chris said on 16:56/ 1 Apr 98...

>Although one thing that puzzles me a bit about talismongers: the price of
>a good focus (any type) is several hundred thousand nuyen. Making one
>doesn't take more than a few months, and costs the enchanter very little
>money. So what is stopping them from making a focus every couple of
>months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
>time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
>very small, but even selling one would allow you to make that
>round-the-world trip you always wanted but never had the money for...

Karma mainly. If I remember correctly first bonding is manditory AND bonds
the focus to the maker. Instead of selling it you might as well use it
(besides isn't it a valid ritual connection to the maker). Of course you
could buy Gold, Silver, Mercury and copper in raditcal form for 44,000 and
double your money if you get even one success to make Orichalcum (I figure
with a magic rating of say 7 and enchanting of 6 you should get around 3
successes for a total profit of 220000). On the other hand raw gold is
10,000 per units. I assume you play with two units (TN 2) and get 4
successes (enchanting of 6) for a total of 8 refined units for a total of
300,000 profit with no karma cost. Which brings up an interesting question
why is someone who can make 300K a month hanging around with a bunch of
runners for 30K a run (karma probably). Like deckers, mages can do better
on there own.

SteveD
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
> Circumvent yourself.
>-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
>-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
>-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
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Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
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the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:16:31 -0500
At 02:57 PM 4/3/98 EST, you wrote:

>I figure that not all spell formulae are the same. Mana Bolt, that
>staple spell, has probably been done about 50 ways in SR. Thus, the
>enemy doesn't "cast a manabolt at you, force 6", he "channels a
>significant chunk of mana your way". It isn't a Spirit Focus 4, it's
>"a earthen bowl etched with characters. Astrally, you see a webwork
>of energies lying over it, a respectable amount, but not huge. The
>energies appear to pierce astral space into somewhere beyond..."
>
>Basically I'm trying to decide if the roleplaying benefit is worth
>the frustration all around.

Ah, I see. I'm not so sure it's worth the trouble. If the assensing PC
has enough successes on the test to see what it is, you could simply say
"It looks like a power focus." The PCs will almost certainly know what a
normal power focus is supposed to look like, right? It's the players that
have no clue.

But that's strictly a role-playing decision to be made by each group. I
usually try for a middle ground "It's a elemental conjuring focus shaped
like a clay bowl with intricate artwork on it. Without closer study you
think it's maybe rating 2 or 3; definetly not higher.

>> >Erik, you are a T-type personality. :) To answer: I don't know. My
>> >gaming group splits down the middle, but they're weird anyway.
>> >Anyone else?
>>
>> Okay, I'll bite. I've heard of Type A and Type B personalities, but
>> what's a Type T?
>
>Thrill. The bungee jumpers, etc. It's been a bit of a buzz-phrase
>lately.

Ah, okay. You're right. I've bungee jumped. I play paintball, which is
an adrenaline sport (I mean, how often do you spend a day in which you hope
to only get *shot at* a few times?). And those Malibu Grand Prix type race
cars are just too cool.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 24
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:47:11 -0800
> >I figure that not all spell formulae are the same. Mana Bolt, that
> >staple spell, has probably been done about 50 ways in SR. Thus, the
> >enemy doesn't "cast a manabolt at you, force 6", he "channels a
> >significant chunk of mana your way". It isn't a Spirit Focus 4, it's
> >"a earthen bowl etched with characters. Astrally, you see a webwork
> >of energies lying over it, a respectable amount, but not huge. The
> >energies appear to pierce astral space into somewhere beyond..."
> >
> >Basically I'm trying to decide if the roleplaying benefit is worth
> >the frustration all around.
>
> Ah, I see. I'm not so sure it's worth the trouble. If the assensing PC
> has enough successes on the test to see what it is, you could simply say
> "It looks like a power focus." The PCs will almost certainly know what a
> normal power focus is supposed to look like, right? It's the players that
> have no clue.
>
> But that's strictly a role-playing decision to be made by each group. I
> usually try for a middle ground "It's a elemental conjuring focus shaped
> like a clay bowl with intricate artwork on it. Without closer study you
> think it's maybe rating 2 or 3; definetly not higher.

But would the PC's know what a "rating" is? Of course, we're speaking
only
of semantics, but for the RP'ing feel of it...would PC's know what a "rating
6" power focus is, or what a "force 6" Mana Bolt is? Or would they speak
more of how much astral energy they're trying to build up?

Hermetic Mages 1 & 2 are sharing a drink at Icarus Descending:

Mage 1: "So then what did you do?"
Mage 2: " Well, I just looked him straight in the eye, and I said
'Frag
you, chummer!' Then I built up as much astral energy
as I could (force
6), and laid into the fragger with a Mana Bolt. Drained
the hell out of
me, but afterwards, he was laid out on the floor."
Mage 1: "Wow, I don't think I've ever handled that much astral drek
before. Do you
you think you could teach me how to do that one day?"
Mage 2: "Sure, all you need is the right concentration, and this
power
focus shaped
like a rabbit's foot. It isn't very powerful (rating 3), but it
gets the
job
done in a pinch."

Chris Hayes
"Who put their hoo-hoo dilly in your cha-cha?" - Cartman
Message no. 25
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:54:35 EST
In a message dated 4/3/98 4:48:12 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
chris_hayes@*******.COM writes:

> But would the PC's know what a "rating" is? Of course, we're
> speaking only
> of semantics, but for the RP'ing feel of it...would PC's know what a
"rating
> 6" power focus is, or what a "force 6" Mana Bolt is? Or would they
speak
> more of how much astral energy they're trying to build up?
>
Force ratings are an often-left-vague value in most RPing situations. It is
hard to determine if the character's language makes such determination of
things. However, Hermetics would readily come up with some sort of scale of
power IMO. Especially if they were taught at a major place of education, such
as MIT&M or some such. Professor has a given "Force 1" spell, let's say
Nutrition, it's an "L" drain. Almost as basic as it gets anywhere. Students
could then gainsay their perceptions appropriately. Also, as for gauging the
force of spirits, this too become possible, as a given formula for a Conjured
Elemental, complete with a Rating 1 Hermetic Circle, would be useful in
determining such relavent energy levels.

Sure, they may not know the numeric values if for nothing else, purposes of
"abstract value estimation".

As for the ratings on objects, perhaps similar objects are kept in laboratory
usage only. A given object as determined by the staff to be "a Force 1 Power
Foci" could be staged aside, and left for the purposes of example and value
determination.

As for the terminology, that becomes something else. When someone uses the
example of "all the mana I could handle" and doesn't have an actual value to
compare with, then of course discussion of "can I do that?" comes into play.

Yep, not all that hard to discuss, especially once the idea that any of the
magical universities have a graduating class of some kind. At that point,
their knowledge sort of "decamps into the World Sector" as it were, and the
value comparisons spread.

-K
Message no. 26
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:17:20 -0500
At 01:47 PM 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:

> But would the PC's know what a "rating" is? Of course, we're
speaking only
>of semantics, but for the RP'ing feel of it...would PC's know what a "rating
>6" power focus is, or what a "force 6" Mana Bolt is? Or would they
speak
>more of how much astral energy they're trying to build up?

Well, as Keith (Ereskanti, welcome back!) said, they probably will have
some sort of language to say that. They might say something like "I
channeled 34 approxiate astral units" or "I channeled a Rating 10 Mana Bolt
on the Adams-Kenson scale" or something like that. It's just a whole lot
easier to simply use the game rule language instead of inventing all that
drek up. It's fun to do on TK, for BSing and whatnot, but not for "normal"
in game conversations.

So the long and the short of it is yes, your normal magician would
essentially know what a Force 6 Mana Bolt is.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 27
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:30:08 -0800
> So the long and the short of it is yes, your normal magician would
> essentially know what a Force 6 Mana Bolt is.


Along the same sort of lines: How would two shamans talk about it? Two Cat
shamans for example? Or maybe a wolf shaman and a rat shaman? What type of
terminology would they use?


> Erik J.

Chris Hayes
"Who put their hoo-hoo dilly in your cha-cha?" - Cartman
Message no. 28
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:29:29 -0800
----------
> From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Talismongers...
> Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 3:30 PM
>
> > So the long and the short of it is yes, your normal magician would
> > essentially know what a Force 6 Mana Bolt is.
>
>
> Along the same sort of lines: How would two shamans talk about
it? Two Cat
> shamans for example? Or maybe a wolf shaman and a rat shaman? What type
of
> terminology would they use?
>

Parables? Zen koans? A song and dance routine?
Message no. 29
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:29:53 -0600
> > So the long and the short of it is yes, your normal magician would
> > essentially know what a Force 6 Mana Bolt is.
>
> Along the same sort of lines: How would two shamans talk about it?
Two Cat
> shamans for example? Or maybe a wolf shaman and a rat shaman? What type of
> terminology would they use?

"Wolf allowed me to channel as much of his power that my frail for could
take.
While the act tired me, the fire he sent against my foes destroyed them."
For the Hermetic among us, the Wolf shaman above just said "I cast a Rating 8
(6+2 dice for being a wolf shaman) Hellblast on the bastards. Damn knocked me
out, but not a single one of them can do more than smoke anymore."

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
************
Yet, I'm also a man who's constantly strivin' for a perfection I'll never
achieve... and probably wouldn't even recognize it if I did.
-Logan, in issue 124 of "Wolverine"
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 30
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:50:49 -0500
At 03:30 PM 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>> So the long and the short of it is yes, your normal magician would
>> essentially know what a Force 6 Mana Bolt is.
>
>
> Along the same sort of lines: How would two shamans talk about it?
Two Cat
>shamans for example? Or maybe a wolf shaman and a rat shaman? What type of
>terminology would they use?

With shamans it could become tricky. Some of them, those that have
received some element of formal education, are likely to use the same
language the hermetics use. And there are probably a suprisingly large
number of shamans like this (they aren't all back to nature types).

Two cat shamans without any formal training/education might make analogies
to different cat types ("That spell you just threw was as weak as a newborn
kitten. Watch as I channel the strength of 10 tigers to power my magic!")
or something like that.

Of course, that same cat shaman would have difficulty communicating magical
theory to a hermetic or a gator shaman or something.

Again, it's fun to role-play now and again, but this sort of talk would get
very tiresome after a while ("Damn it Bob, so what if your spell was like
10 tigers! What was the f*ckin' force for the manabolt!?!").

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 31
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:53:46 -0500
<snip: How do characters describe magic ratings in character?>

Keep in mind that the "quantum" nature of magical ratings is probably
only a game mechanic. You could cast a spell at force 4.9271, but
effects are similar enough to a force 5 that, in game, it is treated as
force 5 IN EVERY WAY. The only "hard" numbers out there would be
transition point between "easy" casting and "hard" casting for a mage,
most other measurements would be somewhat subjective. Sort of like
like, IIRC, Moh's hardness scale for minerals. It was easy enough for
geologists to compare to minerals and see which was harder, but
assigning numbers to hardness was difficult. So, one guy just got a
dozen common rocks together and numbered them softest to hardest
(or was it hardest to softest?). Quartz was a seven, I think. Anyway,
you could now say "Softer than quartz (7), harder than foobarcite (6),
lets just say this has hardness 6.5", and thats what they did. Worked
pretty well.

IMHO, this is what hermetic mages (and shaman too) do. They get a
few landmarks in the sliding scale, and guestimate positions between
them. Problem is, there aren't many landmarks at the high end.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 32
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:21:05 -0400
FYI, my PC mage has Enchanting 6, and is the "armorer" for the mages
in our group. The following info is dangerous to GMs, as it shows just
how easy it is for a PC to get foci at below cost (karma and nuyen).
Hopefully this will clear up some misconceptions about foci.

Enchanting Foci and Karma

Page 26 of the Grimoire II describes the First Bonding process of
enchanting foci. This happens at the end of the enchanting process. The
enchanter and/or the person to receive the focus must pay the First Bonding
Karma cost. The key thing is that the enchanter doesn't have to pay any
karma, it can all be paid by the person to receive the focus. And the
First Bonding does bond the focus. As such, an enchanter can make focus
after focus as long as he has customers willing to pay the Karma cost.

Next, what sort of Karma cost are the customers paying? Less that
the normal bonding cost if the enchanter knows what he is doing. The First
Bonding base cost is higher than the regular bonding cost, but it can be
significantly reduced by using alchemical radicals (which are dirt cheap
compared to the price of the focus). An enchanter can get the First
Bonding karma cost of any focus down to 1xRating is he's willing to use
Orichalcum, and that's usually only needed on the more powerful foci
(power and weapon foci). That means a mage can get a Force 3 Power Focus
for 3 Karma (and a lot of money).

Enchanting Foci and Money

How much does a focus cost? Whatever the Enchanter charges. How
much does it cost to make? Not much. One time fixed costs include an
Enchanting Shop (100k nuyen) and an Enchanting Library (9k to 36k). For
a single "make and model" of focus, the Enchanter also has design time
(a few days to many months). An enchanter may skip the library and design
time by buying finished designs for almost nothing (a few k nuyen at most).
To create each focus, the enchanter needs the material basis (the physical
material of the focus), probably some alchemical radicals (a few k nuyen),
and time. Low force foci (like a Force 3 Power Focus) can usually be
completed in a week by a skilled Enchanter (with Enchanting 6) as long as
he is using plenty of radicals and a Virgin Talesma (a magically pure item
for the material basis). An enchanter can pay for his shop and still have
money for a two month world cruise at luxury lifestyle after spending a
week or two making a single focus (IIRC, a Force 3 power focus sells for
300k nuyen).

Prices for foci are absurd. Foci that contain Orichalcum (all weapon
foci and some reduced-karma foci) should be fairly expensive. The only
explanation for the high price of ALL foci is that demand FAR exceeds
supply. There simply aren't enough Enchanters in the world to keep up
with demand.

Resale of Foci

Low force Foci should have a much better resale value than high force
foci. Sure a lot of mages would love a Force 6 Power Focus, but not if
they have to spend a huge chunk of Karma to get it. Let the Atlantean
Foundation buy it. Better to get one custom made and pay less. Also, a
Spell Lock is always going to cost 1 karma. Spell Locks probably have the
best resale value.

Alchemical Radicals

The prices for most radicals is far too low. It takes 28 days to
create radicals, and a skilled enchanter can make 12 units on average
(starting with 3 units of refined materials). That's usually longer
that it takes to make a focus, and the markup is far less. A skilled
enchanter can't even maintain a Medium lifestyle unless he is making
the more expensive radicals. The cost for radicals should be a fixed
amount over the cost of refined materials (like 1k nuyen).

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 33
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:26:57 EDT
In a message dated 4/6/98 5:22:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mooreb@*****.FAC.COM writes:

> FYI, my PC mage has Enchanting 6, and is the "armorer" for the mages
> in our group. The following info is dangerous to GMs, as it shows just
> how easy it is for a PC to get foci at below cost (karma and nuyen).
> Hopefully this will clear up some misconceptions about foci.
>
<snipped huge summary of enchanting>

Actually, that sounds familiar. Yep, Enchanter can claim "X" karma to bond
the object, but in fact with their skills, it only costs "x-?" to the
enchanter. Money is a similar situation. And if Centering is thrown into
things for an Initiate, all of that bonding cost stuff can get MUCH less.
Don't forget performing such in an activated magical site reduces target
numbers for the enchanter by it's rating. Please note also, that Enchanting
is often described as Ritualistic, and in the London book for power sites
(Druid stuff mostly), that number can be (depending on GM ruling) two or three
times the rating on behalf of the individual.

Yep, been there, done that.
-K
Message no. 34
From: legion <legion@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Talismongers...
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:16:39 +1000
>
> Although one thing that puzzles me a bit about talismongers: the price of
> a good focus (any type) is several hundred thousand nuyen. Making one
> doesn't take more than a few months, and costs the enchanter very little
> money. So what is stopping them from making a focus every couple of
> months, selling them for lotsa money, and doing nothing else in the mean
> time? The only reason I can come up with is that the market for foci is
> very small, but even selling one would allow you to make that
> round-the-world trip you always wanted but never had the money for...
>
>



i think the reason it's so cost-effective to make feteishs, etc is to give
a smart PC mage a way to make lots of cash...............




Hangfire

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