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Message no. 1
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:38:23 -0500
Just to vent my frustration, I've been thinking about a Shadowrun future
history for the city of Jerusalem. Not much so far, but here's how it
starts:

In 2020, Jerusalem is occupied by a great dragon. She methodically sets fire
to every site holy to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. She stays there until
they are all ashes, then leaves.
Message no. 2
From: Michael Baer m.r.baer@********.att.net
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:01:23 -0500
From: Wordman

> Just to vent my frustration, I've been thinking about a Shadowrun future
> history for the city of Jerusalem. Not much so far, but here's how it
> starts:
>
> In 2020, Jerusalem is occupied by a great dragon. She methodically sets
fire
> to every site holy to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. She stays there
until
> they are all ashes, then leaves.

Would this be before they manage to kill each other? No offense intended to
any members, or anyone in fact, that may hail from those parts, but that
area has some serious problems.

Though, I *really* would like to see this region covered whenever the Middle
East is done. The impact of magic and technology on the constantly
squabbling religous factions could quite interesting.

~NexusVoid
(AKA Mike Baer the Magical Mystical Ninja)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Got Bling?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 3
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:48:15 EST
In a message dated 11/2/00 3:40:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> In 2020, Jerusalem is occupied by a great dragon. She methodically sets fire
> to every site holy to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. She stays there
until
> they are all ashes, then leaves.

<giggle> THAT woulda been noted in SR3, doncha think?:-) Besides...nah. It'd
be too damn FUN to think about doing a run on the Western Wall, al-Aqsa
mosque, or Church of the Holy Sepulchre, perhaps bodyguard
work/extraction/assassination.
Message no. 4
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:55:12 EST
In a message dated 11/2/00 5:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
m.r.baer@********.att.net writes:

> Though, I *really* would like to see this region covered whenever the Middle
> East is done. The impact of magic and technology on the constantly
> squabbling religous factions could quite interesting.
>

Exactly. But, can we leave out the "Israel conquered by Arabs/Jewish
extremists/misc" and "Jerusalem and other holy places
zapped/destroyed/nuked"? They're so overdone by other game systems (including
Battletech, if I remember right). I'd love to see a stalemate, kinda like
today, but with magic and such thrown in, as well as perhaps the creation of
Kurdistan, etc. That'd actually be the most interesting.
Message no. 5
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:25:17 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: DemonPenta@***.com <DemonPenta@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Target: Jerusalem


>In a message dated 11/2/00 5:04:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>m.r.baer@********.att.net writes:
>
>> Though, I *really* would like to see this region covered whenever the
Middle
>> East is done. The impact of magic and technology on the constantly
>> squabbling religous factions could quite interesting.
>>
>
>Exactly. But, can we leave out the "Israel conquered by Arabs/Jewish
>extremists/misc" and "Jerusalem and other holy places
>zapped/destroyed/nuked"? They're so overdone by other game systems
(including
>Battletech, if I remember right). I'd love to see a stalemate, kinda like
>today, but with magic and such thrown in, as well as perhaps the creation
of
>Kurdistan, etc. That'd actually be the most interesting.
>


A stalemate for the next 60 years is very likely, especially with the
formations of yet more states to war with eachother. yes, this has my vote.
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:16:45 +0100
According to Wordman, on Thu, 02 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> In 2020, Jerusalem is occupied by a great dragon. She methodically sets fire
> to every site holy to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. She stays there until
> they are all ashes, then leaves.

I don't think you need a dragon for that...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:56:02 -0500
>Just to vent my frustration, I've been thinking about a Shadowrun future
>history for the city of Jerusalem. Not much so far, but here's how it
>starts:
>
>In 2020, Jerusalem is occupied by a great dragon. She methodically sets
fire
>to every site holy to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. She stays there
until
>they are all ashes, then leaves.

My opinion? These people have been at war for centuries. Even the
current "Peace process" was a joke with both side moving behind the other's
back. Jerusalem is gonna be a war torn hell for many many years to come.
Even if one majority takes over the people will revolt. There will never be
peace because the Palestinians want more than the Isrealis are willing to
give, and the Isrealis want more than the Palestinians are willing to give.
I see no reasonable solution in the next 60 years.

And if I managed to offend anyone with that, tough $#!+. Please flame
privately.
Message no. 8
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 19:01:47 EST
In a message dated 11/3/00 6:57:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wagemage@**.rr.com writes:

> My opinion? These people have been at war for centuries. Even the
> current "Peace process" was a joke with both side moving behind the
other's
> back. Jerusalem is gonna be a war torn hell for many many years to come.
> Even if one majority takes over the people will revolt. There will never be
> peace because the Palestinians want more than the Isrealis are willing to
> give, and the Isrealis want more than the Palestinians are willing to give.
> I see no reasonable solution in the next 60 years.
>

Actually...with the coming of magic, let alone cyberware, you'll likely
see the conflict get peaceably resolved quickly. Quite bluntly, too, nobody
wants to piss off a dragon with a conflict in the holy land. (They never
knew...) Thus....LOTTA impetus to resolve things peaceably. I could see
Jerusalem being turned into something like Denver, especially...Not that it
works all that WELL, but it works.

John
Message no. 9
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:53:15 -0600
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>



<Snip>
> > I see no reasonable solution in the next 60 years.

> Actually...with the coming of magic, let alone cyberware, you'll
likely
> see the conflict get peaceably resolved quickly. Quite bluntly, too,
nobody
> wants to piss off a dragon with a conflict in the holy land. (They never
> knew...) Thus....LOTTA impetus to resolve things peaceably. I could see
> Jerusalem being turned into something like Denver, especially...Not that
it
> works all that WELL, but it works.

[hoping not to offend any with the reply]

Actully I tend to see something in the middle. The 'return' of the Dragon
would cause a lull in the fighting, lots of fear of this new power in the
region. Tensions would continure to rise at any rate until they boil over
into conflict once again. If the Dragon tries to intervene personally it's
going to have problems. In a direct assault IMHO the Dragon would loose,
hands down. A dragon (even a Great Dragon ) may be powerful, but against an
army it's still only one creature. It's better course of action would be to
manipulate things behind the scenes to get what it wants. If at worst it
may become a three way battle between Isreal, Palistine and the Dragons
followers.

Of course that would perhaps depend on the mindset of the Dragon. Does it
embrace the new way of thinking amonst it's kind, as is represented by Dunk,
and Lofwyr. Or does it stubbornly hold to the old ways of acting such as
Alamaise seems to perfer.

Hmm, wonder how such a battle of ideals would be fought out should the
dragons decide to come to conflict over this?

<sigh> there go my thoughts, wandering all over the place again..
*Jalong1 grabs a net to collect his wandering thoughts*

Jalong1
Message no. 10
From: Chipeloi chipeloi@***.nl
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 02:11:16 +0100
In the asylum, Wagemage whispered in the corridors:


>
> My opinion? These people have been at war for centuries. Even the
> current "Peace process" was a joke with both side moving behind the
> other's back. Jerusalem is gonna be a war torn hell for many many
> years to come. Even if one majority takes over the people will revolt.
> There will never be peace because the Palestinians want more than the
> Isrealis are willing to give, and the Isrealis want more than the
> Palestinians are willing to give. I see no reasonable solution in the
> next 60 years.
>
> And if I managed to offend anyone with that, tough $#!+. Please
> flame
> privately.
>

Wel as i see it within the next 6 years...
atomic bomb somwhere in israel


As for in shadow run? the same, Nice run: locate suitecase
kill anyone holding it, place it in an car in jerusalem and leave
next day hear on the trid(tv) that there was an ataomic explosion ...
nice..




--
>If you thought Chipeloi was crazy just wait till you meet me !
Message no. 11
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:05:59 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Long <jalong8@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, November 05, 2000 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: Target: Jerusalem



>Actully I tend to see something in the middle. The 'return' of the Dragon
>would cause a lull in the fighting, lots of fear of this new power in the
>region. Tensions would continure to rise at any rate until they boil over
>into conflict once again. If the Dragon tries to intervene personally it's
>going to have problems. In a direct assault IMHO the Dragon would loose,
>hands down. A dragon (even a Great Dragon ) may be powerful, but against an
>army it's still only one creature. It's better course of action would be to
>manipulate things behind the scenes to get what it wants. If at worst it
>may become a three way battle between Isreal, Palistine and the Dragons
>followers.
>
I don't know, I think a great dragon could take guerilla warfare to a new
level. It could pop out of the astral, strafe the munitions dump, send a few
mana blasts at the mess hall, and disappear before the army knew what was
happening. Any mage foolish enough to go astral after it would last less
than a second. They can go bodily into astral space right? Even if they
can't, they're big, fast, and have a huge array of spells.
They'd lose a head on fight sooner or later, but they're crafty buggers and
just wouldn't do that.
Message no. 12
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 11:33:38 +0100
According to Simon and Fiona, on Sun, 05 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> I don't know, I think a great dragon could take guerilla warfare to a new
> level. It could pop out of the astral, strafe the munitions dump, send a few
> mana blasts at the mess hall, and disappear before the army knew what was
> happening. Any mage foolish enough to go astral after it would last less
> than a second. They can go bodily into astral space right? Even if they
> can't, they're big, fast, and have a huge array of spells.

AFAIK, dragons can't transport their bodies into astral space, unless you
allow them to use Earthdawn spells or abilities. Powerful spirits, though,
would make great guerrilla fighters using those tactics -- materialize, use
Innate Spell (Flamethrower) against a fuel dump, flee into astral space. If
done well, even low-Force spirits could be used to great effect this way.

> They'd lose a head on fight sooner or later, but they're crafty buggers and
> just wouldn't do that.

Wouldn't lose, or wouldn't get into a head-on fight? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:02:00 +1100
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wagemage" <wagemage@**.rr.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Target: Jerusalem


> >Just to vent my frustration, I've been thinking about a Shadowrun future
> >history for the city of Jerusalem. Not much so far, but here's how it
> >starts:
> >
> >In 2020, Jerusalem is occupied by a great dragon. She methodically sets
> fire
> >to every site holy to Islam, Christianity and Judaism. She stays there
> until
> >they are all ashes, then leaves.
>
> My opinion? These people have been at war for centuries. Even the
> current "Peace process" was a joke with both side moving behind the
other's
> back. Jerusalem is gonna be a war torn hell for many many years to come.
> Even if one majority takes over the people will revolt. There will never
be
> peace because the Palestinians want more than the Isrealis are willing to
> give, and the Isrealis want more than the Palestinians are willing to
give.
> I see no reasonable solution in the next 60 years.
>
> And if I managed to offend anyone with that, tough $#!+. Please flame
> privately.
>

No peace while Arafat (sp?) is still alive at least. Anything he does now
is his legacy, and peace will involve the Palestinians giving up something.
(The Israelies too for that matter). And sure as hell, Arafat doesn't want
his legacy to be that he gave something up.


Annachie


------------------------------------------------

-----"Vakar Ashok, our gun arrays are now fixed on your ship and will fire
the instant you come -----into range. You will find their power quite
impressive.. for a few seconds."
----- Ivanova to a Drazi Sunhawk
Message no. 14
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:23:04 EST
In a message dated 11/5/00 7:01:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
paulcollins@*******.com writes:

> No peace while Arafat (sp?) is still alive at least. Anything he does now
> is his legacy, and peace will involve the Palestinians giving up something.
> (The Israelies too for that matter). And sure as hell, Arafat doesn't want
> his legacy to be that he gave something up.

Precisely. Barak can afford to give stuff up, legacywise. He'll look BETTER
for it.
Arafat can't.
Message no. 15
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 19:02:01 GMT
>
> No peace while Arafat (sp?) is still alive at least. Anything he does now
> is his legacy, and peace will involve the Palestinians giving up something.
> (The Israelies too for that matter). And sure as hell, Arafat doesn't want
> his legacy to be that he gave something up.
>
>
> Annachie
>

It's not just him, either. Maybe it's the standard "CNN
refraction factor", but the news I've been reading about this subject
lately all point to the agressive behavior of the Israeli people and
government (which promisses peace all the while it has several very
unpeaceful actions against the Palestinians take place) as one of the
main causes the situation is getting worse again.
As I said in a previous message, in cases like this one there
are neither saints nor demons on any of the sides, so you can't blame
only one of them for everything.



Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 16
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:17:12 +0100
Von Bira :

<snip>

> It's not just him, either. Maybe it's the standard "CNN
> refraction factor", but the news I've been reading about this subject
> lately all point to the agressive behavior of the Israeli people and
> government (which promisses peace all the while it has several very
> unpeaceful actions against the Palestinians take place) as one of the
> main causes the situation is getting worse again.

IMO this is the typical behaviour of the press - the side
with the biggest guns gets blamed, as long as it's not the own
armed forces. And even then, they may be the "bad folks"...

Arclight
Message no. 17
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Target Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 22:52:56 +1100
I put a little thought into this today. (Usually between saying breath and
don't push yet)

Anyway, I was thinking what would make this area ineteresting, and what
could bring peace.

I think it will take an outside force to do it, ala Tom Clancy's soloution
of getting the swis guards from the Vatican City to police the area. ( Not
that I thinkm that would work mind)

About the only way to get peace would likely be a dragon descending into the
area and taking control, sort of, as suggested in the beging.
Perhaps landing on the mount or whatever is good and central (and holy) to
the area, declaring that the land is actually his, and that he takes a dim
view of all these humans fighting near his lair. (Hmm, imagine waking a
dragon and he gets up on the wrong side of the bed, so to speak). Not that
this is likely to cause peace to break out, but I reckon it should drive the
fighting underground. Making both sides fight the sneaky guerilla type of
fight. ie: Lots of shadowrun type jobs. Toss in a couple of corperations
(Not AAA's mind, but there are some decent company's that could base in
Jerusalem or surrounds)

Just a couple of thoughts.

(Oh, my original response about Arafat may have sounded a little criticle of
him. I also didn't mean to imply that Israel is blameless in the whole
mess either. To be honest we have no real way of knowing. Just an opinion
on what could happen in RL, thus what forms the basis for a target book)

Annachie

------------------------------------------------

-----High explosives and school don't mix
-----Bart's blackboard
Message no. 18
From: Wage Mage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 09:09:52 -0500
><snip my message>

> Actually...with the coming of magic, let alone cyberware, you'll likely
>see the conflict get peaceably resolved quickly. Quite bluntly, too, nobody
>wants to piss off a dragon with a conflict in the holy land. (They never
>knew...) Thus....LOTTA impetus to resolve things peaceably. I could see
>Jerusalem being turned into something like Denver, especially...Not that it
>works all that WELL, but it works.

They HAVE a lot of impetus to resolve things now! But they won't.
I've seen interviews with families where 6 year old girls are willing to
die to destroy the evil Israeli dogs. The same from Israeli kids. These
tensions are deeply ingrained and built in from the time kids can talk.
These will not pass away due to magic or technology. Ancient hatreds do not
die overnight. You can't bomb them out, you can burn them out. Every life
taken is a martyr for their cause. There is no end to this crap.
The only way a dragon might "resolve" anything is to level the
city. And I mean gone, no stone on top of another, Old Testament style mass
devastation. But honestly I think that they would come back and build
monuments to the fallen monuments. And then fight over those.
I don't know if I'm just a cynical bastard or if I have an
understanding of human nature (which if true would make me a cynic anyway)
but I think the only non violent (kinda) way this might work out is if
another nearby nation fell in the turmoil and the Palestinians managed to
grab up a chunk of land bordering on Israel for themselves. They might then
be able to work out some bizarre dual city type thing like the divided
Germanys during the cold war.
Message no. 19
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:52:39 -0500
A little more thinking about this, and I've come up with this. This is based
on the assumption that any really drastic event (like a nuke, or a dragon)
would show up in SR's official history, so to build a consistent history, it
would need to be a little more low key.

(Note, I know very little about Jerusalem, Judaism or Islam. In the fashion
of a true Harvardian, however, this lack of any real knowledge will in no
way prevent me from spouting off about it.)

1000 BC: Jerusalem well established as capital of Ertez Israel. After reign
of King Solomon, splits into two kingdoms (Israel and Judah).
722 BC: Israel conquered by Assyrians
586 BC: Judah conquered by Babylonians
5th cent BC: Persian rule
4th cent BC: Alexander conquers region
141 BC: Maccabees revolt against Hellenic rule, creating new Jewish state.
70 BC: State falls to the Romans.
AD 66: Temple in Jerusalem destroyed by Romans after failed revolt. Large
numbers of Jews expelled (known as the Jewish Diaspora).
AD 132: Second rebellion quelled. Israel and Judah become known as
Palestine, after the name of its ancient inhabitants, the Philistines.
4th cent AD: Christianity officially recognized by Roman Empire; Palestine
becomes center of Christian pilgrimage, administered as part of Byzantine
Empire.
AD 636: Islamic expansion from Arabia brings Palestine under Islamic rule.
AD 661-750: Palestine ruled by Caliphate of Damascus.
AD 762-1258: Palestine ruled by Caliphate of Baghdad.
AD 1099: Part of Palestine briefly captured by European Crusaders.
AD 1258: Palestine conquered by Mongols.
AD 1260: Mongols defeated, Palestine joins Mamluk empire.
AD 1516: Palestine incorporated into Ottoman Empire.
AD 1870: Zionist movement; emigration of Jews from Europe to Israel.
AD 1905: Chiam Weizmann lobbies for Turkish approval of a new state of
Israel.
AD 1917: Ottoman Emipre collapses; Palestine under British rule. Britain
issues Balfour Declaration, committing Britain to aiding establishment of
Jewish homeland in Palestine.
AD 1923: League of Nations mandates British governance of Palestine,
increasing Jewish immigration and Arab opposition. Britain places limits on
immigration. Tensions mount.
AD 1923-1946: Tensions continue. During war, Jewish community generally
supports British war effort; some anti-Zionist groups sympathize with Axis.
AD 1947: United Nations' Special Committee on Palestine (boycotted by
Palestine) recommends partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab sectors,
with Jerusalem to be administered under international control. UN adopts
recommendation on Nov. 29 and the British start a withdrawal.
AD 1948, May 18: Independent State of Israel established, with capital at
Tel Aviv. Arab League nations attack Israel on the same day.
AD 1949: Armistices signed. Jordan controls West Bank. Egypt occupies Gaza.
Population exchange occurs, with Arabs moving to Arab lands and Jews moving
to Israel.
AD 1956, Oct. 29: Seizing opportunity presented by Suez Crisis, Israel
invades Egypt. Withdraw days later, but retain control of Gaza.
AD 1967, May 19: UN peacekeepers withdraw from Egypt-Israel border. Egypt
re-occupies Gaza and closes Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping.
AD 1967, Jun 5-10: Six Days War. Israel recaptures Gaza, occupies the Sinai
Peninsula to the Suez Canal. West Bank and Old City of Jerusalem captured
from Jordan. Golan Heights captured from Syria. UN supervises another
cease-fire.
AD 1973, Oct 6 (Yom Kippur): Egypt and Syria (backed by Soviet airlifts)
invade Israel. With strong U.S. support, Israel drives back Syria and pushes
all the way into Egypt.
AD 1974, Jan 18: Cease-fire signed.
AD 1982: Israel completes staged withdrawal from Suez canal and the Sinai
Peninsula.
AD 1975-76: Lebanese Civil War. Israel aids Christian militia forces and
attacks bases in southern Lebanon.
AD 1978: Israeli forces invade southern Lebanon, quickly withdrawing and
replaced with UN peacekeepers.
AD 1979, Mar 26: Egypt and Israel sign formal peace treaty and establish
diplomatic relations.
AD 1980: Capital moved to Jerusalem. Israel encourages Jewish settlement in
West Bank, provoking protest from Palestinian leaders.
AD 1981, April: Israel and Syria clash briefly.
AD 1981, Jun 7: Israeli planes destroy nuclear reactor near Baghdad, Iraq.
AD 1982, June 6: Israel launches full scale invasion of Lebanon.
AD 1982, Sep 16: Hundreds of Palestinian civilians killed by Lebanese
Christian militia, who were tacitly allowed into refugee camps by Israel.
International outcry against Israel's occupation of Lebanon.
AD 1985, June: Israeli forces withdraw from Lebanon.
AD 1985-present: Protest, terrorism, peace talks, break down, yadda yadda
yadda.

OK, now my guesses on an SR future:

present-2003: Things continue as they are, with peace talks on and off.
Protests and terrorism continue.

2003, Dec 15: Libya's military dictator Col. Muammar Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi
dies (possibly assassinated). Civil War erupts, pitting Islamic
fundamentalists against Qadhafi's heirs, with the military splitting nearly
in half to back either side. Israel's relations with Arab countries,
particularly Libya, continue to deteriorate.

2004: In an ill-fated attempt to win support of the Moslems away from the
fundamentalist factions, the forces of Qadhafi's heirs unleash a
chemical-weapons attack against Israel. Israel responds with a nuclear
attack that destroys half of Libya's cities (sr2.22). Iraq launches
conventional missile attacks against Israel and the Middle East prepares for
war. The United Nations strongly condemn Libya and Israel's use of weapons
of mass destruction; however, since Israel's attack resulted in many more
civilian deaths, the UN signs a resolution demanding that Israel pay
significant reparations to Libya. The armies of Israel, Jordan and Syria
(with the backing of Iraq) stare at each other across their borders. With
CNN and the world watching, none seem anxious to make the next aggressive
move. The United States lobbies for a stand-down, but stations a carrier
group in the Mediterranean Sea and another in the Indian Ocean.

In the weeks that follow, Yassir Arafat dies, probably of natural causes. A
power struggle ensues between Palestinian factions. Mossad does all it can
to draw out the squabbling as long as possible. While the power struggle
continues, Syria and Iraq wait to see how it turns out. During the
squabbling, violence against Israel decreases, but murders among
high-ranking Palestinians increase.

2005: As the Palestinian power struggle continues, the U.S. hints that an
attack on Israel would force them into the conflict. Simultaneously, the
U.S. and Turkey bring political pressure on Syria to stand down. While this
appears to have no effect, neither Syria nor Jordan attack. As the year
continues, Israel makes good on its reparations to Libya and the region
settles into a state of stalemated alert.

2007: One Palestinian faction finally manages to dominate and, to build
internal support, immediately embarks on a large scale bombing campaign
against Israel's civilians. Public opinion in the United States, which had
been turning steadily against supporting Israel since the turn of the
century, especially since the nuclear attack and the long station of the
U.S. navy to enforce the stalemate, turns strongly against the Palestinians,
politically reinvigorating the United State's support of Israel.

2009: After the long, costly stalemate, all parties begin searching for
face-saving ways out of the stalemate. While tentative discussions about
peace talks fail to bring anyone to the table, it becomes clear that all
sides are no longer as ready for war as it may seem.

2010: VITAS strikes hard in Israel. Violence drops to zero, as populations
hide in fear. As the cure to VITAS become available, Israel tries to build a
peace by going out of its way to make the cure available to poor
Palestinians and lobbies hard to get the cure distributed cheaply in Arab
countries. This, combined with several genuine acts of kindness on both
sides during the plague, allow serious peace talks to begin. U.S. Syrian,
Iraqi and Israeli troops stand down.

2012: As the peace talks make steady but very slow progress, magic returns
to the world. One of the first groups to make magic work in the middle east
is a group of scholars of Islamic alchemical traditions. One of these
scholars has ties to a Palestinian group highly opposed to the peace talks
and, with them, forms a small group of skilled sorcerers. This group begins
a brutal campaign of magical terrorist acts against civilians. At the same
time, the group uses its magical edge to quietly gain political control of
the Palestinian "government". Intent on pressing their magical advantage
quickly, the new Palestinians leaders plot to magically kill all of the
Israeli delegates at the next meeting of the peace process. Unbeknownst to
them, a group of Qabbalists and students of other Hebrew mystical traditions
have also realized that their magic is now working. Several of them, also
opposed to the peace process, use magic to infiltrate themselves into the
peace talks, also intent on magically destroying their opposition at the
talks. In spite of the magical attacks, a meeting of both sides is called.
As soon as it gets underway, magic erupts from both sides, followed shortly
after by a lot of shooting. After the smoke clears, nearly everyone is dead.

2013: Chaos follows, with both sides in-fighting to fill their power
vacuums. Against the advice of Syrian leaders, Lebanon launches an attack on
Israel. Lacking decisive political leadership, Israel's receives conflicting
guidance from the government, allowing Lebanon to capture part of the Golan
Heights for a few days. The attack jars Israel into quickly deciding upon
its leadership. The Israeli army floods into the Golan Heights and central
Lebanon, crushing the Lebanese army. Syria rolls troops into Northern
Lebanon, intent on expelling Israel. Not wanting a war with Syria, Israel
(with help from the UN) calls for a cease-fire. While talks go on, small
skirmishes occur between Syrian and Israeli forces and Syria moves more and
more troops into Lebanon.

2014, Feb 2: Kurdish rebels in Iraq (with the backing of the U.S.) and Syria
(without the backing of the U.S.) declare the Republic of Kurdistan as an
independent nation, launching coordinated attacks, including significant
combat magic, against their respective countries. Forced to move troops out
of Lebanon to deal with the Kurds, Syria surprises the world by offering
Israel an agreement to split Lebanon in half between them, adding the south
to Israel and the north to Syria. This raises the ire of Iraq, Jordan and
Egypt against Syria.

2014-2021: Israel continues to deal with terrorism, both magical and
conventional, from both Palestinian and Lebanonese groups. While fighting
between Arab nations drastically reduced the funding and support for
terrorism against Israel, Israel's own funding from the United States was
also cut drastically, as the U.S. came to grips with the Treaty of Denver.

2021: Goblinization...

Ug... it's 3am. More later.

Wordman
Message no. 20
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:17:44 -0500
On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:52:39 -0500 "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com> writes:
<snip everything>
>
> 2021: Goblinization...
>

So far, really cool :-)

> Ug... it's 3am. More later.
>

no it's not, it's only (looks at header) 10:52.
GET BACK TO WORK!!!

:-)
________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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Message no. 21
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Target Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:08:32 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Collins" <paulcollins@*******.com>

> About the only way to get peace would likely be a dragon descending into
the
> area and taking control, sort of, as suggested in the beging.
> Perhaps landing on the mount or whatever is good and central (and holy) to
> the area, declaring that the land is actually his, and that he takes a dim
> view of all these humans fighting near his lair. (Hmm, imagine waking a
> dragon and he gets up on the wrong side of the bed, so to speak). Not
that
> this is likely to cause peace to break out, but I reckon it should drive
the
> fighting underground. Making both sides fight the sneaky guerilla type of
> fight. ie: Lots of shadowrun type jobs. Toss in a couple of
corperations

Actually, isn't Aden in the area? I seem to recall that he completely
destroyed Teheran, and now lives on Ararat (which is on the Sinai peninsula,
right?). I would say a great dragon, known to have destroyed cities in the
past, would tend to quiet things down a little bit...
Message no. 22
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:13:41 EST
In a message dated 11/6/00 9:10:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wagemage@**.rr.com writes:

> They might then
> be able to work out some bizarre dual city type thing like the divided
> Germanys during the cold war.

Been there, done that w/ Jerusalem. From 1948-1967.....The Israelis HATED it,
and, frankly, so did the Arabs.
Message no. 23
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:49:08 -0500
A continuation of a little more thinking about this. This is still based on
the assumption that any really drastic event (like a nuke, or a dragon)
would show up in SR's official history, so to build a consistent history, it
would need to be a little more low key.

2014-2021: Israel continues to deal with terrorism, both magical and
conventional, from both Palestinian and Lebanonese groups. While bickering
between Arab nations drastically reduced the funding and support for
terrorism against Israel, Israel's own funding from the United States was
also cut drastically, as the U.S. came to grips with the Treaty of Denver.

2020: The ayatollah of Iran attempts to halt the growing political animosity
between Arab nations by uniting them with a jihad against a new enemy:
metahumans (which, at this point, consisted of just elves and dwarves).
Shortly after this declaration, the great dragon Aden came seemingly from
nowhere and demolished Teheran in retaliation (sr3.268).

2021, Apr 30: 10% of the world goblinizes. Though Aden's attack stole the
wind from the sails of the jihad against metahumans, goblinization renewed
much of its zeal. Islamic fundamentalists, fearful of a repeat on the attack
on Teheran, begin a secret campaign of violence against the goblinized.
Hordes of metahumans attempt to run the border into Israel for sanctuary.
Those who survive the border crossing find themselves economically trapped
as the underclass in Israel. While the government official protects
metahumans, incidents of violent racism are common.

2021-2029: Metahuman presence in Israel does little to reduce ethnic tension
and much to increase it. Three metahuman groups form in Israel, with
radically different agendas. The smallest, but most radical, of these uses
terrorism in an attempt to force all humans out of Israel. Another uses
slightly less loathsome terrorism in an attempt to force concessions for
metahumans from the government. The last, and by far the largest of these
groups, uses non-violent protest to work for equal rights and acceptance for
metahumans. The groups (mostly the last) find themselves both using and
being used by Palestinian and Lebanese terrorist groups, making the
political situation in Israel even more confusing.

2029, Feb 8: Having spent the last four decades building an economy around
high technology, Israel is hit extremely hard by the Crash of '29.

OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a shadow
of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to think
of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive. Here are
a couple of options:

1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other factor.
For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.
2) Japan. Somehow.
3) Magic - Israel becomes, secretly, a thaumatocracy.
4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and overruns
Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.

What do you think would happen?

Wordman
Message no. 24
From: Wage Mage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 12:08:16 -0500
><snip>



>OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a shadow
>of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to think
>of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive. Here are
>a couple of options:
>
>1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other factor.
>For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
>Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.
>2) Japan. Somehow.
>3) Magic - Israel becomes, secretly, a thaumatocracy.
>4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and overruns
>Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.
>
>What do you think would happen?

Is there any particular reason why Israel *shouldn't* have been
overrun? I mean realistically the only reason they've lasted this long is
with major support from the west. They've managed to piss off nearly every
neighboring country and most of the region and then poured salt in the
wounds over and over. I'm not saying I favor taking Israel out, I just
think that eventually those bills are gonna come due, and they are
seriously outnumbered.
I always wondered about the Israeli stance on the region around
them. I understand that the Jews were kicked around the desert for
centuries and then slaughtered wholesale in WWII. I don't think anyone
should belittle those sufferings. But once the state is actually created,
they promptly whip it out and piss on all their neighbors? This seems like
bad foreign policy at best, and political suicide at worst.
Honestly with the amount of hatred they've garnered over the
years, and the state of the world in 2029 (US split and dealing with it's
own issues, wars raging, plagues, etc.) I really don't see how Israel
WOULDN'T collapse.
Message no. 25
From: Walter Scheper ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:20:15 -0500
On 7 Nov 2000, at 10:49, Wordman wrote:

[snip the history bit]
> OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a
> shadow of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is
> difficult to think of what would prevent the Arab countries from
> eating Israel alive. Here are a couple of options:
>
> 1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other
> factor. For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much
> like in Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation. 2)
> Japan. Somehow. 3) Magic - Israel becomes, secretly, a thaumatocracy.
> 4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and
> overruns Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.
>
> What do you think would happen?
>
> Wordman

Well, first off with the massive decrease in oil use, going from the
rather widespread use of electric-grid powered autos and that large
portions of the United States are now controlled by supposedly eco-
friendly NAN, I would have to say that the Arab oil countries aren't
any better off than Israel. Then you need to figure out if the mega's
would want a piece of the oil money that's left, which they probably
would since oil is used in a lot more than just cars. As to what
reaction there might be to the corporations taking over...

That is all
-Walter
Message no. 26
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:12:12 -0200 (BRST)
ra002585@***.unicamp.br
>
> Well, first off with the massive decrease in oil use, going from the
> rather widespread use of electric-grid powered autos and that large
> portions of the United States are now controlled by supposedly eco-
> friendly NAN, I would have to say that the Arab oil countries aren't
> any better off than Israel. Then you need to figure out if the mega's
> would want a piece of the oil money that's left, which they probably
> would since oil is used in a lot more than just cars. As to what
> reaction there might be to the corporations taking over...
>
> That is all
> -Walter
>

Well, the US is not the only customer of the Arabs, though it is a
large one. There would be many others in Europe, Asia (Japan) and the
other Americas who would still be buying. They'd just close the wells a
bit, and maybe up the price. Besides, the changeover to electric grids
won`t occur overnight, and won't be all that cheap either.
With all the things happening at that time, another oil crisis
would just be icing on the cake :) . It wouldn't make our hypothethical
Mid-East situation grind to a halt, and as someone already said on this
list, there is no "story" need to keep the country intact. We just have to
be careful not to slag everything like the official authors did in the
books so they didn't need to cover the rest of the world in detail :) .


--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
-- Redator da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ # 4055455
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:20:37 +0100
According to Wordman, on Tue, 07 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a shadow
> of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to think
> of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive.

Determination can go a long way -- it's basically what kept Israel in
existence in 1948 when nobody was willing to sell arms to them. Also, don't
forget that Israel is the main military force in the region; the Arab
countries may have large armies but they aren't anywhere near the standards
of the IDF in just about all respects. Outdated Russian equipment, low
training standards, poor motivation, rigid doctrines, and more are only
partly compensated by the armies' sizes.

Of course, the problem for Israel would be that this can only be counted on
for short-term survival. Eventually, a far larger enemy will wear them down
unless there is some outside help they can count on to make that stategy
too costly in the long run.

> 1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other factor.
> For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
> Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.
> 2) Japan. Somehow.

I don't see them having much of an interest in the region. They might
decide to go after the oil (after all, there's a Japanese colony in Africa
in SR) but they wouldn't need to get involved on Israel's side for that. It
seems more plausible to me that they'd support the Arabs in exchange for
oil, even.

> 4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and overruns
> Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.

IMHO, if you continue current-day events into SR's timeline, this would more
likely lead to an increase in the anti-Israeli feelings than to a decrease.

5) Arab in-fighting. Although it may seem to us that the Arab world is
united, in truth there is a lot of distrust not just between countries but
also between different groups within countries. Eventually there will be
disagreement about how best to get rid of the "Zionists" and that could get
out of hand, especially if it goes on for long enough.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"20% of all Americans are going to vote; the remaining 80% can't
fit into the polling booths." --Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Message no. 28
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:26:05 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>

> OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a
shadow
> of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to
think
> of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive. Here
are
> a couple of options:

I don't think there is anything, really... _Perhaps_, at a stretch, you
could claim that many Russian Jews, including soldiers, wind up coming in to
reinforce the Israelis after the Euro Wars... until this point, I imagine
the Israelis would largely be surviving based on technology they still have
that wouldn't rely on networked computers, and the fact that other countries
would be as crippled as they are. Until the end of the Euro Wars, Israel
would basically be a constant riot, with both sides relying heavily on magic
to bolster failing technology. I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of
a new Crusade carving itself a chunk of Israel, and maybe even Jerusalem.

***
Skald-Mark Mjöksiglandi
a.k.a. Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated November 4th, 2000
Message no. 29
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:06:06 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Wordman wrote:

> OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a shadow
> of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to think
> of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive. Here are
> a couple of options:
>
> 1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other factor.
> For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
> Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.

Perhaps much of the Arab world is dealing with its own problems,
i.e. the fact that many of their oil fields are running dry. It's tough
to finance a jihad when 80% of your GNP dries up. Forecasts say that many
of the existing oil fields in the middle east will be played out in the
next few decades, so the timing would be right.
As a side note, I've always felt that fuel prices in Shadowrun
were way too low, but that's just me picking a nit.

> 2) Japan. Somehow.

Unlikely. Japan does not have a sizable indigenous Jewish lobby,
neh? And therefore, they really have no reason to piss off the people
that give them one of the natural resources their techno-industrial
machine needs - oil - which if you go by the above is in great demand.
Also keep in mind that some of Japan's suppliers of raw materials that are
more local also have sizable Muslim populations (Indonesia, Malaysia, the
Phillippines, etc). Backing Israel would alienate these nations as well
(though it's not as much an issue for the Phillippines as they are an
occupied territory anyway [cf. Cyberpirates]).
No, Japan has little to gain and much to lose.

> 3) Magic - Israel becomes, secretly, a thaumatocracy.

Eh.

> 4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and overruns
> Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.

Eh. Said movement would probably sweep Israel off the map. Being
able to do what none of the other Islamic movements have done would go a
long way toward uniting the arab world. I think it unlikely, and again I
think that anything of this scope would have been mentioned.

Alternatives:

The way I see it, there are a couple of alternatives. This is by
no means an exhaustive list, so if anybody has any more I'd be happy to
hear them. Further, if these break down logically, please point it out.

5) With the decrease in oil revenues due to steadily failing
reserves, Arab nations have fewer and fewer resources to throw at Israel.
As such, the conflict continues, though at a much lower pace. There's
less threat of use of weapons of mass destruction by either party, but
cross border clashes between basic infantry (supported by outdated armor
and artillery) are common. The Israelis still hold a technical edge (as
their intelligence service continues to collect technical sources and
methods data as voraciously as they do now, if not moreso), but they are
outnumbered on a man-for-man basis. Oddly enough, a significant protion
of metahumans will support Israel regardless of religious leanings, as it
was Islamic fundamentalism that drove them to emigrate to Israel in the
first place.

6) Israel still has backing from Europe. Britain, Germany,
France, Italy, and other industrialized western nations tend to view
Israel as a check on rampant arab fundamentalism, and continue to support
Israel even after the US withdraws large scale support to deal with
internal issues.
Unfortunately, this option only works up until the EuroWars (the
dates of which escape me, so this might be a moot point).

7) Outnumbered and outgunned, Israel is a nation driven by
prophecy. Rabbis and Qabbalists agree that many of the signs of the
coming of the Messiah have come to pass. Israeli people rally around a
person who motivates and inspires. Whether or not this person is actually
the Messiah, or whether or not they are a puppet of someone else is
immaterial. Actually, the thought of a 12-year-old "Messiah" being subtly
(or not-so-subtly) manipulated by political, religious, mystical, or
corporate entities has plenty of potential for fun. This is even more fun
if various "religious artifacts" get brought into the fray (the Arc of the
Covenant, for instance). Are they real, or technological frauds? Does
anyone care? Are they show-pieces, or do they have function in
non-religious areas (political, military, etc)?

8) Israel gets rolled into the sea by the combined forces of Arab
nations who've "had enough." The second Jewish Diaspora begins wholesale.
Jews are still allowed to make pilgrimages to the Western Wall, but any
hope of a Third Temple is crushed. Displaced persons either a) move to
other nations with friendly emigration policies and less overt
anti-semitism, b) become second-class citizens in nations ruled by Islamic
governments (and perhaps under Islamic Sharia religious law), or c) wander
the desert as semi-nomadic religious groups. Said groups probably have
terrorist elements, and some portion of them probably wage small campaigns
of sabotage/guerilla warfare against whatever Arab state they happen to be
wandering through at the time.
Combined with option 7), this has plenty of potential. You know,
a Child Messiah, born of the desert, come to lead his people home, yadda,
yadda, yadda.

9) Currently, in our world, there's a lot of back-door dealing
with Israel by even the most fundamentalist of Islamic regimes. Indeed,
Israel is the "hated enemy" second only to the "Great Satan" of the
US,
but it's surprising that even Iran under the Ayatollah engaged in a lot of
back-door tech transfer with Israel. For many nations of the middle east,
Israel is a clearing house for new and interesting technologies. An
Israeli technology that allowed more oil to be pulled from existing "dry
wells" may well be the answer to many a mullah's prayers. As such,
there's no reason to believe that such surreptitious deals wouldn't
continue. Israel conducts top-notch bio-genetic research. A microbe that
bonds with petroleum, is easily extracted from wells, and can be easily
separated again in the refining process could extend the life of many
"empty" oil wells by decades. Perhaps an Israeli irrigation/fertilization/
soil rejuvenation microbe turns the Tigris/Euphrates region into the
"Breadbasket of Babylon." It's entirely possible that joint ventures
between arab nations and Israel will pave the way to what 70 years of
suspicion and hatred have not yet been able to accomplish - relative
stability in the region.

Just a few ideas. Hopefully someone finds inspiration in all of
this. A few of these ideas could be combined, and would probably fill out
the complex future history of the region better than any single idea.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 30
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:12:31 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Renouf" <renouf@********.com>

> > 4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and
overruns
> > Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.
>
> Eh. Said movement would probably sweep Israel off the map. Being
> able to do what none of the other Islamic movements have done would go a
> long way toward uniting the arab world. I think it unlikely, and again I
> think that anything of this scope would have been mentioned.

Well, another option (unlikely though it is) would be another mass
conversion of people to Judaism, like is supposed to have happened with the
Khazars. You get a militant enough population converted and suddenly
descending on Israel, and the Arab nations would have a major problem on
their hands.
Message no. 31
From: BillT@*********.com BillT@*********.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 12:26:09 -0800
On 11/7/00, Wordman wrote:

<snip>
>
>OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a shadow
>of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to think
>of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive. Here are
>a couple of options:
>
>1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other factor.
>For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
>Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.
>2) Japan. Somehow.
>3) Magic - Israel becomes, secretly, a thaumatocracy.
>4) Some sort of movement (possibly Islamic) begins in Africa, and overruns
>Egypt and parts of Saudi Arabia.
>
>What do you think would happen?
>
>Wordman

What about a magically active Mossad, working behind the scenes to
distabilize attempts at Arab unity? Perhaps an early awakening of
Kabala giving them a headstart. They may or may not become a secret
thaumatocracy, but they could certainly turn the tide.
--
BillT@*********.com | PGP KeyID#: 0xECB1EE6F
-"I don't need children of my own...I have end users."
Message no. 32
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:21:06 EST
In a message dated 11/7/00 10:51:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wordman@*******.com writes:

> 2029, Feb 8: Having spent the last four decades building an economy around
> high technology, Israel is hit extremely hard by the Crash of '29.
>
> OK, now here things get a little difficult. With the United States a shadow
> of its former self, and Israel's economy in ruins, it is difficult to think
> of what would prevent the Arab countries from eating Israel alive. Here are
> a couple of options:
>
> 1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other factor.
> For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
> Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.

Definitely this. Also remember, it's noted in SR that while oil is important
in SR, it's been replaced consumerwise by electric vehicles and such. Thus,
oil wealth is not there. Arab countries also could easily turn to tech, just
as Israel has....Though, less so. Add the crash to continuous Arab bickering
(trust me, if you think the Arab-Israeli conflict is bad, look at the
INTERNAL conflicts among the Arabs....OUCH!), and the Arabs would be too busy
licking their wounds and knifing each other to kick Israel.

John
Message no. 33
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:25:57 EST
In a message dated 11/7/00 3:10:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
renouf@********.com writes:

> 9) Currently, in our world, there's a lot of back-door dealing
> with Israel by even the most fundamentalist of Islamic regimes. Indeed,
> Israel is the "hated enemy" second only to the "Great Satan" of
the US,
> but it's surprising that even Iran under the Ayatollah engaged in a lot of
> back-door tech transfer with Israel. For many nations of the middle east,
> Israel is a clearing house for new and interesting technologies. An
> Israeli technology that allowed more oil to be pulled from existing "dry
> wells" may well be the answer to many a mullah's prayers. As such,
> there's no reason to believe that such surreptitious deals wouldn't
> continue. Israel conducts top-notch bio-genetic research. A microbe that
> bonds with petroleum, is easily extracted from wells, and can be easily
> separated again in the refining process could extend the life of many
> "empty" oil wells by decades. Perhaps an Israeli
irrigation/fertilization/
> soil rejuvenation microbe turns the Tigris/Euphrates region into the
> "Breadbasket of Babylon." It's entirely possible that joint ventures
> between arab nations and Israel will pave the way to what 70 years of
> suspicion and hatred have not yet been able to accomplish - relative
> stability in the region.

THANK you for mentioning this. Now that it's brought up....great idea. To be
blunt, Israel has almost entered the status of "being one of the tribes", as
someone I know called it once...they're tolerated these days. Not LIKED, but
tolerated. Kinda the annoying cousin who happens to be smart and rich as hell.

John
Message no. 34
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:32:02 EST
In a message dated 11/7/00 3:19:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.net writes:

> Well, another option (unlikely though it is) would be another mass
> conversion of people to Judaism, like is supposed to have happened with the
> Khazars. You get a militant enough population converted and suddenly
> descending on Israel, and the Arab nations would have a major problem on
> their hands.

Ah, the "rabid badger" theory. From personal experience, badgers seem to
always be kicked around (like Israel), and seem to have friends in the
WEIRDEST places...I go punt the transplanted badger out of my yard (I'm in
NJ, doubt badgers are native, and no clue HOW it got there...), and about 30
squirrels are running towards me, quite pissed off. Much like Israel.
Actually, post the NAN stuff, an emigration of Jews from the US that used to
live in the west would not be unlikely. Rabidness need only be supplied by
being pissed off at seeing your adopted homeland get ruthlessly kicked around
rhetorically by the locals.

John
Message no. 35
From: Pepe Barbe a19960615@****.edu.pe
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 17:00:55 -0500
At 12:08 p.m. 07/11/00, Wage Mage wrote:
> Is there any particular reason why Israel *shouldn't* have been
> overrun?

Um. They are the Chosen Nation? :)

Pepe
Message no. 36
From: Achille Autran aautran@****.fr
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 05:06:43 +0100
From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
>
>> 1) The Arab world is hit just as hard by the crash, or some other
factor.
>> For example, perhaps an Awakened revolt begins in Iraq, much like in
>> Siberia, but it is eventually put down by Arab cooperation.
>
>Perhaps much of the Arab world is dealing with its own problems,
>i.e. the fact that many of their oil fields are running dry. It's
tough
>to finance a jihad when 80% of your GNP dries up. Forecasts say that
many
>of the existing oil fields in the middle east will be played out in the
>next few decades, so the timing would be right.
>As a side note, I've always felt that fuel prices in Shadowrun
>were way too low, but that's just me picking a nit.

Apparently, arabic countries aren't that poor around '29, since they
waged a Jihad in 33 that went as far a Yugoslavia, totally wiped Greece,
and got blocked by a coalition of european countries just hot from
Eurowars I. During this Jihad, I think that Israel may be reduced to a
very small node of resistance (Marc's option 7 arise), that suddenly
fights back into the belly of the disparate islamic forces, thanks to a
large support from Europe (a British and a French carrier off St Jean
d'Acre could seriously change the balance, for example). Those european
countries have much political interest in backing Israel, since they are
already fighting Arabs, at least they could get jewish votes... And you
get a new stalemate circa 2035, with severely wounded countries on all
sides, and even more bad blood. Seems like time for megacorps to come
in, isn't it ?
Message no. 37
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:57:49 -0500
> Apparently, arabic countries aren't that poor around '29, since they
> waged a Jihad in 33 that went as far a Yugoslavia, totally wiped Greece,
> and got blocked by a coalition of european countries just hot from
> Eurowars I.

This reads as if it is official FASA published information. Is it? If so,
where is it?
Message no. 38
From: Caleb Quindrael caleb@*******.nl
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 20:13:30 +0100
>> Apparently, arabic countries aren't that poor around '29, since they
>> waged a Jihad in 33 that went as far a Yugoslavia, totally wiped Greece,
>> and got blocked by a coalition of european countries just hot from
>> Eurowars I.
>
>This reads as if it is official FASA published information. Is it? If so,
>where is it?

No, AFAIK this is not FASA info, but FanPro info (they publish the German
version of SR). It was in "Deutschland in der Schatten", the original
German book that got translated into the Germany Sourcebook. However, this
part was left out (maybe just because at FASA had no idea yet what they
were going to do with the Arabian countries, maybe because they didn't want
to risk such a "touchy" subject yet... possibly Khomeini was still alive in
those days?).

VrGr Da5id

"I am the monster from your dreams, I am what you like to be. I am the
malcontent that slips through the cracks. I am the nightmare that always
comes back. I cannot be caught, I am above the law. Humanity is not what I
suffer from." (Velvet Acid Christ - "Caught")

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
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PE- Y-- PGP- t@ 5 X@ R+++ tv+ b+++ !DI D+ G+ e++* h r(+) y+*
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Message no. 39
From: Achille Autran aautran@****.fr
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:32:43 +0100
>>>>>[From: "Wordman" <wordman@*******.com>

> Apparently, arabic countries aren't that poor around '29, since they
> waged a Jihad in 33 that went as far a Yugoslavia, totally wiped
Greece,
> and got blocked by a coalition of european countries just hot from
> Eurowars I.

This reads as if it is official FASA published information. Is it? If
so,
where is it?]<<<<<

Germany Sourcebook p.27: "Unfortunately for Europe, this brief calm did
not last. A number of Islamic states also experienced violent upheavals
during 2032, giving way to fundamentalism. One resulting alliance that
included Turkey invaded Europe through the Balkans, forcing Russia to
post the bulk of her troops on her southern borders and ending much of
the sporadic fighting of the continuing Euro-Wars. In early 2034,
Germany's elite MET2000 together with a combined force of Hungarian,
Czech, Austrian and Ukrainian troops halted their territory gains,
though they could not roll back their territory gains."

Target: Smuggler Heavens p.36: "When the Islamic militants surged
northward in 2034, we [russians] were forced to divert several armies
south "

I DO remember having seen mentionned somewhere the Alliance for Allah
(Middle East and Morocco) and the Federation of Islamic States (Maghreb,
Sahel, Nigeria), the Alliance for Allah being refered before as "one
resulting alliance". I just can't find it now... Grrr.

Anyway this is canon for the EuroSB team, and I'm not the only one with
these memories. With this, you could update the sixthworld site ;-).
Message no. 40
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:09:47 EST
In a message dated 11/8/00 2:17:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, caleb@*******.nl
writes:

> No, AFAIK this is not FASA info, but FanPro info (they publish the German
> version of SR). It was in "Deutschland in der Schatten", the original
> German book that got translated into the Germany Sourcebook. However, this
> part was left out (maybe just because at FASA had no idea yet what they
> were going to do with the Arabian countries, maybe because they didn't want
> to risk such a "touchy" subject yet... possibly Khomeini was still alive
in
> those days?).

He was. Iran...well...Damn, that was a weird time. A suggestion nonetheless?
Keep to FASA info, English authoritative. FanPro....*shudder*. Dear God, let
us not go there.
Message no. 41
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:10:43 +0100
According to Achille Autran, on Thu, 09 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Germany Sourcebook p.27: "Unfortunately for Europe, this brief calm did
> not last. A number of Islamic states also experienced violent upheavals
> during 2032, giving way to fundamentalism. One resulting alliance that
> included Turkey invaded Europe through the Balkans

Today, Turkey is probably the most un-fundamentalist Islamic country;
certainly it's one of the few that tries to maintain a strong separation of
church and state, to the extent that it (and mainly the army) takes other
non-democratic measures to ensure religion and government don't mix. IOW,
this sounds somewhat implausible to me.

> I DO remember having seen mentionned somewhere the Alliance for Allah
> (Middle East and Morocco) and the Federation of Islamic States (Maghreb,
> Sahel, Nigeria), the Alliance for Allah being refered before as "one
> resulting alliance". I just can't find it now... Grrr.

This is easier to believe, IMO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And now, the weather.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:44:07 -0500
> Anyway this is canon for the EuroSB team, and I'm not the only one with
> these memories. With this, you could update the sixthworld site ;-).

Hell, I might even have to update the map!

Thanks for the reference!
Message no. 43
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:18:22 -0800
From: Nexx

> Well, another option (unlikely though it is) would be another mass
> conversion of people to Judaism, like is supposed to have happened with
the
> Khazars. You get a militant enough population converted and suddenly
> descending on Israel, and the Arab nations would have a major problem on
> their hands.

There are still Russian Jews that haven't emigrated yet and the Israeli
government is sending over people all the time to "recruit" those people.
If you get a war in Russia (which is SR canon) this might be a good
incentive for those people to start moving into the slightly more peaceful
country of Israel. Low estimates are that there are about 3 million still
there (about 600.000 already emigrated). That's a lot of extra people
specially if you consider that most countries in the region do not have
very large populations (Egypt and Iran being the exceptions).

I think there is a very reasonable chance that Israel is still around in
2060 based on army size, quality and pure tenacity. I suspect that any
cooperation between the Arab nations will not hold out very long. The
countries delivering the manpower to invade Israel will have to worry
about weakening themselves too much, lest the others decide to go for
a little land grabbing themselves. Plus some countries just won't
cooperate, not even to destroy Israel.

Unless some kind of new prophet appears that can unite all people on
the basis of religion (somehow not very likely either), I think it's
still going to be there, no matter what FanPro wrote (they're famous
for exaggeration IIRC anyway)

Martin
- Where is Eric when you need him!? -
Message no. 44
From: Nexx nexx@********.net
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:23:25 -0600
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Steffens" <marste@*********.com>

> I think there is a very reasonable chance that Israel is still around in
> 2060 based on army size, quality and pure tenacity.

Apocryphal, but fortuitous. Since I had TT out to answer a question
yesterday, I was flipping through it before I went to bed. When they were
talking about the Elven Rite of Passage, someone said that it sounded
unbearably sappy... to which someone else replied that he should tell that
to an big Israeli commando, and compare it to his Bar Mitzvah. So, as of
'53 or '54 (the book reads like its supposed to be '53, but all the dates
are in '54... some even make references back to posts, and use the date
'53).

***
Skald-Mark Mjöksiglandi
a.k.a. Nexx
a.k.a. Mark Hall
***
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no
light. If I lose paper and ink I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I
will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them
to you."
-Henry Rollins
***
http://www-personal.interkan.net/~nexx/index.html
Updated November 4th, 2000
Message no. 45
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:42:36 EST
In a message dated 11/10/00 1:13:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
marste@*********.com writes:

> Unless some kind of new prophet appears that can unite all people on
> the basis of religion (somehow not very likely either), I think it's
> still going to be there, no matter what FanPro wrote (they're famous
> for exaggeration IIRC anyway)
>
Exaggeration? Um...Nice understatement.:-)
Message no. 46
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:20:38 -0800
From: Nexx

[Israel's existence]
> So, as of '53 or '54 (the book reads like its supposed to be '53,
> but all the dates are in '54... some even make references back to
> posts, and use the date '53).

Thanks Nexx! That should clear things up since if Israel would have
been invaded afterwards, it would have made it in the "news".
Great, they do liven up the area considerably; nothing like a
shadowrun in a country where the people are more paranoid than you
>:)

Martin
- Who likes the idea that he can still go there for holidays in 2054 -
Message no. 47
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Target: Jerusalem
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 03:23:57 -0800
From: DemonPenta@***.com

[snip]
> > still going to be there, no matter what FanPro wrote (they're
> > famous for exaggeration IIRC anyway)

> Exaggeration? Um...Nice understatement.:-)

Well the people who did read their stuff scared me away from them
so effectively that I never actually read anything written by them.
So I gave them the benefit of the doubt :)

Martin
- Who can't wait for a Shadowrunners of Cathan supplement -

Further Reading

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