Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: An Unofficial Shadowrun Guru Named Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Target Numbers
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:25:12 +0200
>>I find that if you trust the players to do their own target numbers,
>>and everyone knows the rules, then you can speed things up a lot.
>
>Works sometimes - but most of the players don't remember half the TN - heck I
>never remember half the TN. If you need to - get a basic idea and wing it.

I was thinking of making a quick reference card -- copy or print some of the
most-used tables from the rulebook, stick them to a piece of cardboard, and
put plastic over it. Then drop it onto the table so your players can use it
without having to look through rulebooks a lot. Needless to say, don't try
this for RoleMaster :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Mr. Buzzcut sent us over to say hi to someone named Gene
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 2
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Target Numbers
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:16:46 -0500
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, An Unofficial Shadowrun Guru Named Gurth wrote:

> I was thinking of making a quick reference card -- copy or print some of the
> most-used tables from the rulebook, stick them to a piece of cardboard, and
> put plastic over it. Then drop it onto the table so your players can use it
> without having to look through rulebooks a lot. Needless to say, don't try
> this for RoleMaster :)

Doesn't the GM's Screen have most of this stuff? You could just
get another one of those, or something along those lines.
I've heard that T$R (The Bad Witch of the Industry) has player
screens out for the different classes now. Not a horrible idea, but
sorta useless most of the time if you ask me.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "And as we stand on the edge of darkness, |
| Let our chant fill the void." |
| -- Tibetan Book of the Dead |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 3
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Target Numbers
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:23:24 -0700
>> I was thinking of making a quick reference card -- copy or print some of the
>> most-used tables from the rulebook, stick them to a piece of cardboard, and
>> put plastic over it. Then drop it onto the table so your players can use it
>> without having to look through rulebooks a lot. Needless to say, don't try
>> this for RoleMaster :)

Rolemaster - drops it on the table - table collapses

> Doesn't the GM's Screen have most of this stuff? You could just
>get another one of those, or something along those lines.

Heck - I made my own stuff and taped it all to the SR I screen :)

> I've heard that T$R (The Bad Witch of the Industry) has player
>screens out for the different classes now. Not a horrible idea, but
>sorta useless most of the time if you ask me.

THATS A GREAT IDEA

then the GM can't see what we roll!!!

Better yet - we can all hide behind ours screens and never see each other while
we roleplay!!!

Multiclass characters - STACK the screens one on top of the other.

--------

What you really could do is make a page for different things and then stick them
in a ring binder.

Combat Section
Rules page TN mods and such
Ranges
Damages Codes and stuff

Magic Section
Spell casting TN
conjuring
Ritual Sorcery
Astral Space
Big table of spells

Decking section
Tn and stuff
Program stuff

Gee - how often do I use deckers in my game :)

Critters Section
Power short description
Critter summary - sort of like PNAE

Contacts and Archtypes
who then stats then skills - try one line only it may work if you use tables


I am going to attemp this once I finally get my own computer


Nightfox

DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU - Daniel Waisley HTTP://DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU/~DJW2/
- Insanity is such a delightful state of mind.
BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!BOINGEE!!!
Geek code V2.1 GE d-? H++ s+:->++: g+ p? !au(-) a21! w++ v+* C++$(++++)
U(-) p? L !3 E? N K- W M+ V+ -po+(---) Y+ t+ 5+++! j-x R+(++) G' tv
b+(+++) D(+) B--- e+ u+*(++)(**) h(*) f+(*) r-->+++ !n- y+*>++
Message no. 4
From: An Unofficial Shadowrun Guru Named Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Target Numbers
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:11:50 +0200
> Doesn't the GM's Screen have most of this stuff? You could just
>get another one of those, or something along those lines.

If you own the GM screen it's no problem, but I don't feel like buying it as
it's got nothing really useful (cardboard character standups. Yeah, right.
I'll need those, sure, Mr. FASA. Throw in a couple of bridges as well.) At
least the 1st ed screen had an adventure, even though I've heard that's not
all that good either. I make due with an Earthdawn GM screen -- that had a
booklet with it with some useful info IMHO.

> I've heard that T$R (The Bad Witch of the Industry) has player
>screens out for the different classes now. Not a horrible idea, but
>sorta useless most of the time if you ask me.

Well, seeing that they make sourcebooks for each character class as well,
the screens would be the next logical step...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm not like them. But I can pretend.
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Target Numbers
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 20:28:23 +1000
NIGHTFOX writes:

> What you really could do is make a page for different things and then
> stick them in a ring binder.
>
> [Lots of tables mentioned.]

Check Paolos www page, it has a whole bunch of useful tables all organised
into sections on it. Sounds just like what you describe.

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 6
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:22:24 +0100
The Mike`s post remind me another problem with Shadowrun:Target numbers...

What is the diference between a TN of 6 (High) and a TN of 7 (Extreme)??
Ok,ok if you have penalizations the TN increase to 8 and 9,and now is
very diferent,but...

I tried in a game (but didnt work)the 1 rules from White wolf,that is;a
roll of 1 deny one exit.I thought that it will work because in white wolf
system you have a 10% of probabilities of roll a 1,and in Shadowrun the
probability increase to 16%,but it isnt a big diference(at least i
thought so).Well,all worked right until the TN increase to 10 or more.
To roll over 6,they only have a 16%,and after the probability "falls"
because they need to roll again the 6 and need a high number...
So,after a couple of rolls of "crashed" i choose to continue with the
"old" rules (but i still think that is useless the difernce between
6-7,12-13...)

Have you ever tried the white wolf rules with Shadowrun?what happened?




*************************************************
* *
* >>>>>[Tu ciberterminal sera mia.Piensalo bien *
* cuando te encuentras en lo mas oscuro de la *
* matriz]<<<<< *
* -Fastjack<18:05:46/12-22-52> *
*************************************************
Message no. 7
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:47:40 -0700
> From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.UNICAN.ES>
> I tried in a game (but didnt work)the 1 rules from White wolf

You mean you actually reveal the target numbers to your
players???That is your first mistake...Trying to fix it with weird
rules is the second... :)
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:43:28 +0100
Fastjack said on 9:22/24 Jan 97...

> What is the diference between a TN of 6 (High) and a TN of 7 (Extreme)??
> Ok,ok if you have penalizations the TN increase to 8 and 9,and now is
> very diferent,but...

Without modifiers, there is no difference: if you roll a 6, you will
_always_ roll at least 7 when you re-roll the die. The same thing goes
for 12 and 13, 18 and 19, and so on. Once modifiers are added, a base TN
6 is different from a 7, though.

> I tried in a game (but didnt work)the 1 rules from White wolf,that is;a
> roll of 1 deny one exit.I thought that it will work because in white wolf
> system you have a 10% of probabilities of roll a 1,and in Shadowrun the
> probability increase to 16%,but it isnt a big diference(at least i
> thought so).Well,all worked right until the TN increase to 10 or more.
> To roll over 6,they only have a 16%,and after the probability "falls"
> because they need to roll again the 6 and need a high number...
> So,after a couple of rolls of "crashed" i choose to continue with the
> "old" rules (but i still think that is useless the difernce between
> 6-7,12-13...)

I'm not too great at statistics, but someone (Rat?) once said on this list
that in WW's system your chances of botching the roll increase as you roll
more dice, rather than decrease; IMHO that's not really a good thing...
In SR, if you have more dice your chances of a fumble (Rule of One)
decrease, because it's a lot more unlikely to roll all ones with 6 dice
than with 3 dice (I've never seen it happen with more than 3 dice,
although I did see someone roll all sixes once, with 6 dice).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
eMpty TV
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 9
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:34:38 +0000
On 24 Jan 97 at 9:22, Fastjack wrote:
[snip]
> So,after a couple of rolls of "crashed" i choose to continue with the
> "old" rules (but i still think that is useless the difernce between
> 6-7,12-13...)
Only if you don't take into consideration any modifiers. There _is_ a
big differnce if your Smartlink lowers your TN to four or five.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 10
From: Donald G Bixler <mudgb4@***.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:22:16 -0600
> I'm not too great at statistics, but someone (Rat?) once said on this list
> that in WW's system your chances of botching the roll increase as you roll
> more dice, rather than decrease; IMHO that's not really a good thing...

In WW's system, it's when you have a combo of high difficulty
and large number of dice the the botch chances go screwy. 8+
difficulty and 6+ dice, IIRC...

Oops da Ogre
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:26:04 -0700
Fastjack wrote:
|
| The Mike`s post remind me another problem with Shadowrun:Target numbers...
|
| What is the diference between a TN of 6 (High) and a TN of 7 (Extreme)??
| Ok,ok if you have penalizations the TN increase to 8 and 9,and now is
| very diferent,but...
|
| Have you ever tried the white wolf rules with Shadowrun?what happened?

WW's rule of 1 doesn't work. The higher the skill level,
the greater the chance of failure.

Because a lot SR's target numbers are linked to stats (TN
of 7 to summon a Force 7 Spirit) the problem TNs of 6 and 7
being the same can't be fixed. And SR's success system
makes changing to another dice system a real bitch. If you
wanna play SR learn to like the Rule of Six, cuz you're
stuck with it :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 12
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:46:22 EST
On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:26:04 -0700 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>Fastjack wrote:
>|
>| The Mike`s post remind me another problem with Shadowrun:Target
>numbers...
>|
>| What is the diference between a TN of 6 (High) and a TN of 7
>(Extreme)??
>| Ok,ok if you have penalizations the TN increase to 8 and 9,and now
>is
>| very diferent,but...
>|
>| Have you ever tried the white wolf rules with Shadowrun?what
>happened?
>
>WW's rule of 1 doesn't work. The higher the skill level,
>the greater the chance of failure.
>

Huh? Botching is a whole heck of a lot more probable if you only roll a
few dice versus rolling about 8 or so. I don't see how rolling more dice
makes the odds of getting a greater percentage of 1's higher

I agree that the "rule of 1" from WW doesn't work in SR, but that's only
because the odds of getting a 1 in SR is around 15+%, while it's only 10%
in WW (1's pop up more on D6's than on D10's...that's the only
reason..).

>Because a lot SR's target numbers are linked to stats (TN
>of 7 to summon a Force 7 Spirit) the problem TNs of 6 and 7
>being the same can't be fixed. And SR's success system
>makes changing to another dice system a real bitch. If you
>wanna play SR learn to like the Rule of Six, cuz you're
>stuck with it :)

Yup, you'd have to change the whole rating system of things to conform to
the larger number range. A rating 6 anything is no longer a terribly
difficult target number (jumps from an 85% chance of failure, to a 50%
chance of failure). In a nut shell things that are now rating 6 would
have to become rating 9-10 in WW to keep them on the same
range/probability.

>
>-David
>--

~Tim
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:07:44 -0700
Tim P Cooper wrote:
|
| >WW's rule of 1 doesn't work. The higher the skill level,
| >the greater the chance of failure.
| >
|
| Huh? Botching is a whole heck of a lot more probable if you only roll a
| few dice versus rolling about 8 or so. I don't see how rolling more dice
| makes the odds of getting a greater percentage of 1's higher

White Wolf's rule of one goes: any die that comes up as a
one *counters* any die that is successful. So if you roll
6 dice vs a target of.. 7, and 3 die are successful, 2 die
fail, and 1 die comes up as a 1, you end up with two
successes.

If you role one die vs a TN of 10, you have a 10% chance of
succeeding. If you role two die your chances drop, because
if the first die comes up as a 10, there's a 10% chance
that the other dice will come up a 1 and turn the test into
a failure. The more dice you have at high target numbers,
the lower your chances of actually suceeding if you role
fewer dice. I used to have a copy of the statistics, but
have long since deleted it. I think Robert Hayden was the
person I got it from, but he hasn't been on this list in
about a year.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 14
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Target numbers
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:59:50 EST
On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:07:44 -0700 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>Tim P Cooper wrote:
>|
>| >WW's rule of 1 doesn't work. The higher the skill level,
>| >the greater the chance of failure.
>| >
>|
>| Huh? Botching is a whole heck of a lot more probable if you only roll
a
>| few dice versus rolling about 8 or so. I don't see how rolling more
dice
>| makes the odds of getting a greater percentage of 1's higher
>
>White Wolf's rule of one goes: any die that comes up as a
>one *counters* any die that is successful. So if you roll
>6 dice vs a target of.. 7, and 3 die are successful, 2 die
>fail, and 1 die comes up as a 1, you end up with two
>successes.

Yes, thank you, I'm well aquainted with it. For the past two years
we've been playing WoD games more than SR.
:-)

>
>If you role one die vs a TN of 10, you have a 10% chance of
>succeeding. If you role two die your chances drop, because
>if the first die comes up as a 10, there's a 10% chance
>that the other dice will come up a 1 and turn the test into
>a failure. The more dice you have at high target numbers,
>the lower your chances of actually suceeding if you role
>fewer dice. I used to have a copy of the statistics, but
>have long since deleted it. I think Robert Hayden was the
>person I got it from, but he hasn't been on this list in
>about a year.

Isn't the converse _also_ true? If the first die comes up a 1, you still
have a 10% chance of merely getting a failure and not a botch? And if
you have three dice to roll, you may even get a success out of the mess!
I have a feeling that the probability laws go a bit screwy when the
results directly affect themselves that way.

Of course in White Wolf games, a single success rarely means you succeed
in your action. If given a target number of 10 and told you need 3
successes (a standard 'complete' success) how many dice would you like to
roll? One or Ten? If each roll took X minutes of game time and you
needed to succeed before the 'bad guys' got there, who would you bet on
to acomplish the feat?

Either way, I've never been one to rely on probability, cause no matter
what the odds say your going to get, you really can't be be sure until
"the almighty die has spoken", to put it as I once heard it said.

>
>-David

On another note, which is more in line with the original posting in this
thread...

Anyone consider using a _modified_ version of WW's rule of one? As we
all know the rule that each 1 cancels a success doesn't work in SR, but
what about every _two_ 1's canceling a success? I know my group has
talked about using it, but then we started up a Mage game and have been
at that ever since.

~Tim
Message no. 15
From: Callum Shaw <callum_shaw@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Target Numbers
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:42:31 PDT
Thanks for all the input, I think that with these as a basis I should be
able to work something out with my players as to what we all think is
fair.

Oh, and if I seems I'm a little slow in my replies it's probably because
I get the digest the day after everyone else has posted their replies.

Thanks :)


Callum

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Target numbers, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!