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Message no. 1
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:20:05 -0500
Using only Shadowrun rules without house rule varients, how can you attac=
k
an astrally project mage.

The only way that I have found is through unarmed / armed combat with the=

Astral entity. Killing the body workd but for this example assume that th=
e
body can not be found.

In SR II P.148 it says that a Magician in astral space can cast a spell a=
ny
astral being execpt a spell.
On Page 149 it goes on to describe the physical-physical symmetry require=
d
to cast a spell. =

Finally on page 150 it talks about the physical component (ie the body)
containing a spiritual compononet (the aura). In this case a
physical-physical symmetry is not required.

Can someone explain how Astrall projecting Mages fit into this picture.

As far as I can tell the Astrally projecting mages who has left their bod=
y
at home can not be targetted by a spell as the attacker can not see the
physical component (ie no physical-physical symmetry), AND the Astrally
projecting mage in question CAN NOT cast spells at the poor perceiving ma=
ge
due to not meeting this physical-physical symmetry.
=

Is this true.

rob.. (Scratching his head and getting confused).
Message no. 2
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:36:30 PST
>Using only Shadowrun rules without house rule varients, how can you
attack an astrally project mage.
>

You can target him with a spell, or engage him in astral combat.

To do so, you must be actively onthe astral plane as well. That means
projecting, percieving, or dual natured.

A percieving mage or dual natued creature is (afaik, after persnal
coversation with FASA folk) present on the astral plane, but resricted
ONLY to actions they can perform in physical space, so they would need
to use unarmed / armed combat (or normal critter combat), not sorcery
and astral combat pool. They can target astral beings with spells, but
not all spells will affect the astral being (You need a mana spell,
afaik). Critter powers might also work in a-space, if not purely
physical in effect.

Astral VS Astral is detailed pretty well in the main book. Purely
astral combat is alittle differentfrom normal combat, and is what the
astral mage would use to resist such attacks. He resists spell effects
as normal.

So, in answer- you need acsess of some sort to astral space, and either
astral combat, or a mana effecting abilty / spell.

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Message no. 3
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 04:17:38 -0500
Mon goose kindly wrote...

>Astral VS Astral is detailed pretty well in the main book. Purely
>astral combat is alittle differentfrom normal combat, and is what the
>astral mage would use to resist such attacks. He resists spell effects
>as normal.

I've read that section many times but I can not get my head arround this
physical-physical symmetry. In the bit on How spells work (p149 I think) =
it
says that a spell works by creating a bridge between Astral and Normal
space. If this is so then how does a Mana spell work on a pure astral
target. They have no physical componet in line of site.

>So, in answer- you need acsess of some sort to astral space, and either
>astral combat, or a mana effecting abilty / spell.<

Do mana spells not need this P-P S, or is it a Goof.

Rob.
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:34:53 +0100
Robert Cozens said on 4:17/22 Feb 98...

> I've read that section many times but I can not get my head arround this
> physical-physical symmetry. In the bit on How spells work (p149 I think) it
> says that a spell works by creating a bridge between Astral and Normal
> space. If this is so then how does a Mana spell work on a pure astral
> target. They have no physical componet in line of site.

What you need is plane-to-plane symmetry, not physical-to-physical. If the
caster and the target are both on the physical plane and there is LOS, a
spell can be cast. Likewise, if both caster and targer are on the astral
plane and there is LOS. a spell can be cast. Grounding out is a
side-effect of being in two planes at once.

--
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This ain't no holiday, but it always turns out this way
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Message no. 5
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:11:26 -0500
Message text written by Gurth 22/0298
>>
>Robert Cozens said on 4:17/22 Feb 98...
>
>> I've read that section many times but I can not get my head arround th=
is
>> physical-physical symmetry. In the bit on How spells work (p149 I thin=
k)
it
>> says that a spell works by creating a bridge between Astral and Normal=

>> space. If this is so then how does a Mana spell work on a pure astral
>> target. They have no physical componet in line of site.
>
>What you need is plane-to-plane symmetry, not physical-to-physical. If t=
he
>caster and the target are both on the physical plane and there is LOS, a=

>spell can be cast. Likewise, if both caster and targer are on the astral=

>plane and there is LOS. a spell can be cast. Grounding out is a
>side-effect of being in two planes at once.
>

I think that I've been reading that section for tooooooooo long.
Its taljking about casting a physical spell to a physical target..

[1] From mundane space you create the P.P.S. by syncronization.

[2] From Astral space you can not create a P.P.S as the caster is in astr=
al
space as in no physical component. canne cast spells at target.
NOTE If the target was duel natured / or astrally proceiving / was wearin=
g
a spell lock / or an active magical item then the bridge created could b=
e
used to target a spell through (either physical or Manna).
?Question what would happenif the target was projecting ie no Aura in sit=
e
?

[3] If the target was Astrally projecting but the body was in site then y=
ou
should be able to target both spell types

[4] If both target and caster are Astral only, for example projecting mag=
e
and spirit then an Astral - Astral Symmetry is required.
If this is the case then wen p 149SRII says :-

Upon impact its energies ground out through the aura of the target and
effect either the target's physical component (if its a physical spell) o=
r
its spiritual component of the spell is a mana spell.

In my mind this is saying that a spell only works (in the way described i=
n
its description) when a Astral meets the Physical. Therefore an Mana spel=
l
can not be cast at a purely Astral Target. =

We all agree that a Physical Spell can not be cast at a purely Astral
Target.

Rob.....
Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:33:12 PST
>>What you need is plane-to-plane symmetry, not physical-to-physical. If
the caster and the target are both on the physical plane and there is
LOS, aspell can be cast. Likewise, if both caster and targer are on the
astral plane and there is LOS. a spell can be cast. Grounding out is a
side-effect of being in two planes at once.
>>

A good summary and guidline. An astrally projectingmage can't
castcertain spells (physical manipulations).

>[1] From mundane space you create the P.P.S. by syncronization.
>

Sure, if thats how you view it.

>[2] From Astral space you can not create a P.P.S as the caster is in
astral space as in no physical component. canne cast spells at target.

AR, UM- more clearly? Can he (? who) cast spells at the target (which?)
No, astral mages can't affect purely physical targets.

>NOTE If the target was duel natured / or astrally proceiving / was
wearing a spell lock / or an active magical item then the bridge
created could be used to target a spell through (either physical or
Manna).
>

Yes. In all those cases, the spell is being cast at / through something
that is presenton the astral plane.

>?Question what would happenif the target was projecting ie no Aura in
site?
>

His body is a purely physical target, by itself.

>[3] If the target was Astrally projecting but the body was in site then
you should be able to target both spell types
>

HUH? Spell TYPE has little to do with it. If ohysically present, you
can target his body. If astrally present (percieving or projecting) you
can target the "astral body".

>[4] If both target and caster are Astral only, for example projecting
mage and spirit then an Astral - Astral Symmetry is required.
>

Astral symetry? Thats not an issue. You can cast any spells at
eachother you want, except DM's and other physical manipulations, which
just don't work in astral space.

>In my mind this is saying that a spell only works (in the way described
in its description) when a Astral meets the Physical. Therefore an Mana
spell can not be cast at a purely Astral Target.
>
>We all agree that a Physical Spell can not be cast at a purely Astral
>Target.
>
>Rob.....
>

UM, actually, physical spells CAN be cast at an astral targets. A mages
attributes when projecting may be different, but if you fireball him, it
works fine. If youfirball some dual natured critter, the fire ball even
"grounds" and affects targets nearby that are purely on the physical.

Spells affect astral targets because both are astral, both are magical
(thats why physical manipulations don't work).

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Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:47:19 +0100
Robert Cozens said on 5:11/23 Feb 98...

> [1] From mundane space you create the P.P.S. by syncronization.

Yes.

> [2] From Astral space you can not create a P.P.S as the caster is in astral
> space as in no physical component. canne cast spells at target.
> NOTE If the target was duel natured / or astrally proceiving / was wearing
> a spell lock / or an active magical item then the bridge created could be
> used to target a spell through (either physical or Manna).

True again. And don't use the G-word if you want to avoid getting thwapped
or worse :)

> ?Question what would happenif the target was projecting ie no Aura in site
> ?

Then IMHO you can still cast spells at the body. This is not really
mentioned either way in the rules, I think, but it makes sense to me (if
only because it makes magicians more careful about where they leave their
bodies).

> [4] If both target and caster are Astral only, for example projecting mage
> and spirit then an Astral - Astral Symmetry is required.
> If this is the case then wen p 149SRII says :-
>
> Upon impact its energies ground out through the aura of the target and
> effect either the target's physical component (if its a physical spell) or
> its spiritual component of the spell is a mana spell.
>
> In my mind this is saying that a spell only works (in the way described in
> its description) when a Astral meets the Physical. Therefore an Mana spell
> can not be cast at a purely Astral Target.
> We all agree that a Physical Spell can not be cast at a purely Astral
> Target.

We don't agree on that... IMO only physical manipulation spells can't be
cast from the astral to the astral, because they travel through the
physical plane to the target. All other spells travel through the astral
plane, and since they're targeted at the aura (which is in astral space as
well), they can hit the target.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
This ain't no holiday, but it always turns out this way
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 8
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:02:36 EST
> > ?Question what would happenif the target was projecting ie no Aura in site
> > ?
>
> Then IMHO you can still cast spells at the body. This is not really
> mentioned either way in the rules, I think, but it makes sense to me
> (if only because it makes magicians more careful about where they
> leave their bodies).

Well, there is that bit about how you can heal the body to heal the
astral mage via repercussion, so I guess it might say it
indirectly.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:40:18 -0700
Brett Borger wrote:
/
/ > > ?Question what would happenif the target was projecting ie no Aura in site
/ > > ?
/ >
/ > Then IMHO you can still cast spells at the body. This is not really
/ > mentioned either way in the rules, I think, but it makes sense to me
/ > (if only because it makes magicians more careful about where they
/ > leave their bodies).
/
/ Well, there is that bit about how you can heal the body to heal the
/ astral mage via repercussion, so I guess it might say it
/ indirectly.

Also, the rules don't state that Aura = Astral Form. My
interpretation is that the aura is linked to a mage's body and that
his astral form is independent. So if a mage is projecting his
astral form his body still has an aura.

-David

ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
--
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--
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Message no. 10
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:16:40 -0500
From: Mon goose

>>We all agree that a Physical Spell can not be cast at a purely Astral
>Target.
>
>Rob.....
>

UM, actually, physical spells CAN be cast at an astral targets. A mages
attributes when projecting may be different, but if you fireball him, it
works fine.
> Mon goose<

Why does the Spells and Astral Space section (p.149) say that a Physica=
l
Caster Physical Target Symmetry must exit fot the spell to work. ?
Message no. 11
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:16:42 -0500
Message text written Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Robert Cozens said on 5:11/23 Feb 98...

>> ?Question what would happenif the target was projecting ie no Aura in
site
>> ?
>
>Then IMHO you can still cast spells at the body. This is not really
>mentioned either way in the rules, I think, but it makes sense to me (if=

>only because it makes magicians more careful about where they leave thei=
r
>bodies).

Its not directly mentioned but putting two pieces of information together=
, =

[
(SRII p.146 Title Astral Projection)
In which the magician's aura "separates" from his body and is able to mov=
e
freely and independantly for some time.
(and SRII p.149 Spells and Astral space)
What happens next is that the spell grounds out through the target's aura=

]
I have to conclude that the magician's aura is simply not present with th=
e
body during astral projection.

If you have drawn other conclusions I would be greatfull if you could
explain your reasoning.

I have had a group of munchkin mages playing shadowrun on or off for a lo=
ng
time now and I'm trying to create a controlled fun game that almost
everyone else seems to have no problems with.
The player pool at the moment is far too small, so everyone's
munching............
Rob...
Message no. 12
From: Robert Cozens <RobCozens@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:16:45 -0500
>>From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
>
>Also, the rules don't state that Aura = Astral Form. My
>interpretation is that the aura is linked to a mage's body and that
>his astral form is independent. So if a mage is projecting his
>astral form his body still has an aura.
>
>-David
>
P. 146 SRII does describe projection as the act of 'separtating one aura
from ones body'.
Rob....
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:17:11 -0700
Robert Cozens wrote:
/
/ >>From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
/ >
/ >Also, the rules don't state that Aura = Astral Form. My
/ >interpretation is that the aura is linked to a mage's body and that
/ >his astral form is independent. So if a mage is projecting his
/ >astral form his body still has an aura.
/ >
/ >-David
/
/ P. 146 SRII does describe projection as the act of 'separtating one aura
/ from ones body'.

oh. Well in that case, I'd rule the mage's body as an inanimate
object for purposes of targeting spells.

-David

--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
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Message no. 14
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:28:49 PST
>Why does the Spells and Astral Space section (p.149) say that a
PhysicaCaster Physical Target Symmetry must exit fot the spell to work.
?
>

That section states that in order to affect a physical target, the mage
must be there physically. [The SPELL TYPE used is not affected at all,
nor is "astral targeting"]
Basically, the "physical symetry" is a cludge thrown in to explain how a
spell (a purely astral entity) can travel through astral space and then
affect a purely physical target. It has nothing to do with affecting
astral targets.

Also, "grounding" is an exeption to the rule forbiding astral beings
from affecting physical ones. In grounding, the "bridge" to astral
space is created by the TARGET, not by the mage and the "physical
symetry".



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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Targetting Projecting Magicians
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 21:01:59 +0100
Robert Cozens said on 5:16/24 Feb 98...

> >Then IMHO you can still cast spells at the body. This is not really
> >mentioned either way in the rules, I think, but it makes sense to me (if
> >only because it makes magicians more careful about where they leave their
> >bodies).
>
> Its not directly mentioned but putting two pieces of information together,
[info snipped]
> I have to conclude that the magician's aura is simply not present with the
> body during astral projection.
>
> If you have drawn other conclusions I would be greatfull if you could
> explain your reasoning.

Well, as has been mentioned you can cast Heal and Treat spells at the
"comatose" body of the magician, and this _will_ heal wounds. It would be
very unlikely that only those spells can target the body, and others for
some reason can't.

Also, it can be argued that the magician's body is still a physical
object, and you can cast spells at physical objects. Physical spells will
damage non-living objects, so a physical spell at least would be able to
wound the magician's body.

Then there's the matter that if you cast an area-effect spell at an
astrally-projecting magician, it grounds out on the magician's body,
wherever that may be at the time -- so there is some kind of connection.
Reading between the lines, you can conclude that spells cast at the body
will travel the same route the other way, and hurt the magician's aura.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
This ain't no holiday, but it always turns out this way
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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