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Message no. 1
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 19:16:09 -0500
Tasers are SUPPOSED to be nasty. Trust me! I got co-nailed by one at a
political rally in new orleans a few years ago.

Several of us were on a gay rights march and the police, finding the
'unruly' crowd unresponsive to tear gas, started in with tasers. My
friend and I were locked arm in arm with a bunch of tohers forming a human
chain in front of the parish hall and she got nabbed. The shock
incapacitated her, myself, and 4 others.

And that's a 1991-era taser!

After we got shocked, there was nothing we could do except to lie on the
ground and quiver. For about 15 minutes or so, the world became really
weird. I couldn't hear anything except for faint shouts like they were
far in the distance and the sound of my heart pounding in my ears about
about 10 billion decibles. My peripheral vision all but dissappeared.

After about 10 minutes or so, my hearing improved as did my vision, and
after a few more minutes, I could move (shakily). Buy this time, I was in
the paddy wagon being hauled downtown, so it was effective for
incapacitating us, I guess.

(Incidently, just so you know, no charges were filed and the whole
incident was investigated because tasers were never authorized for use,
although the CS was.).

Ahh to be you and an anarchist again.......

{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ #include <std_disclaimer.h> <]}
{[> \ /__ ------------------------------- <]}
{[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ / Bigotry is what is incompatible <]}
{[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ with military service. <]}
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Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 19:29:07 -0500
On Wed, 28 Jul 1993, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> Ahh to be you and an anarchist again.......

that should read: Ahh, to be YOUNG and an anarchist again....

{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ #include <std_disclaimer.h> <]}
{[> \ /__ ------------------------------- <]}
{[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ / Bigotry is what is incompatible <]}
{[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ with military service. <]}
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Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 22:10:29 -0500
I'm answering this question publically, simply because it is valid to the
discussion.


--

On Wed, 28 Jul 1993 SPEEDBMP@*******.SIU.EDU wrote:
> Bob,
> Just read your post on tasers and I have a question. I hope you can answer
> it for me. Did you or your friend experience any short term memory loss from t
> he taser shot. Seems to me that if you pump that much current into a body that
> it would mess up some of the short term memory funtions. If I have hit a raw sp
> ot I am sorry about that.

Hmm. I don't really recally any gaps. I don't really remember being
tossed into the wagon (kinda like blurry images that you can't really
focus on).

And don't worry, I'll never be ashamed of any of my many acts of civil
disobediance from my youth. My rap sheet is pretty lengthy if you include
those things, but otherwise I'm a fairly good boy . . . well . . . sometimes.


{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ #include <std_disclaimer.h> <]}
{[> \ /__ ------------------------------- <]}
{[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ / Bigotry is what is incompatible <]}
{[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ with military service. <]}
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Message no. 4
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 22:32:43 -0500
Kudos to Rob for
1)standing up for something
2)reality checking the rules
From GURPS High Tech:
Tasers are available circa 1970. They use compressed gas to fire a
dart at the target. The dart is connected to a battery which delivers an
electric charge. Subject rolls vs Will to avoid being stunned AS LONG AS
THE DARTS ARE CONNECTED. A stunned character cannot remove the darts.

I have some questions about the Pulsar, and ranged stun weapons in general?
Do you suppose that in the future they'll somehow be able to get rid of the
wires? like a cpacitor in the dart or something? That could result in less
power.

Why not use Tasers? Well, they don't kill people; they'll wake up afterwards
and sound the alawrm. Simple, some say: Kill them once capacitated. All fine
and good if you play ruthless, efficient runners. But I don't think stabbing
a convulsing man on the ground who's just doing his job is very heroic. And
for most people in real life, even trained soldiers, killing someone like that
is a threshold that is difficult to cross; some GMs may require a Willpower
roll for some characters to bring themselves to be so brutal.

Oh, and if the Pulsar uses wires, maybe the victim's buddies can cut them
or something. Or he could stumble behind something that yanks them out.

J Roberson
Message no. 5
From: Matt Vanek <aa2239@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 00:02:54 -0400
>
>Kudos to Rob for
> 1)standing up for something
> 2)reality checking the rules
>
>Why not use Tasers? Well, they don't kill people; they'll wake up afterwards
>and sound the alawrm. Simple, some say: Kill them once capacitated. All fine
>and good if you play ruthless, efficient runners. But I don't think stabbing
>a convulsing man on the ground who's just doing his job is very heroic. And
>for most people in real life, even trained soldiers, killing someone like that
>is a threshold that is difficult to cross; some GMs may require a Willpower
>roll for some characters to bring themselves to be so brutal.

Right, shooting someone in the back is so much more heroic. And
infinately more easy to do if you are not standing over the quivering body.
Don't forget...no blood on the runner...don't want to dirty his suit.

ahhhh the humanity of it all...

But seriously, there are other alternatives to death. tie the
corp gaurd up...hit him in the head withn something heavy...this should give
a good runner enough time to finish the run, AND it saves the corp the time
and money of finding a replacement...

later
Iron Claw


--
Even though, after all, it's only natural, | Lcfn:aa2239/Cfn:ab148
I'm Childish | Matt Vanek:
--The Judybats, don't drop the baby | The Iron Claw; aka.
Huh? Nevermind. I donno, I just got here. | Zxquebly Bejru
Message no. 6
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 22:55:23 -0500
Kudos to Rob for
1) Standing up for an important cause and
2) Taking the time to reality check the rules for us

From GURPS High Tech
The Taser is available circa 1970. It uses compressed gas to fire
darts connected by an electrical wire to a battery. The target
rolls vs Will at -4 (call it TN of 5 in SRun) to avoid being
stunned as long as the wires are connected. The target cannot
remove the wires while stunned.

Here are some questions to consider: Is there a wire involved with the
Pulsar? If so, it could become tangled or get torn out by the victim's
movements or a budy. If not, then the power would be limited by whatever
battery or capacitor they put in it.

The disadvantage is that the target isn't totally incapacitated. He can
wake up and sound the alarm. B, you say, why not dispatch at leisure
with either knife or gun? All well and good if your characters are
ruthless, efficient runners. I find such activity to be hardly in line
with the heroic background of Shadowrun. Also, people in real life,
even trained soldiers, have difficulty crossing that threshold. How
would you feel about killing a convulsing victim who was only doing
his job? Some GMs may require a Willpower roll to bring yourself to
such a task. Of course, it would become easier over time.

J Roberson
-->this is the garbage your editor gives you when you emulate a VT220
teminal instead of a VT100. The software just can't do it!

ragetyweywy
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 22:59:14 -0500
Hey, sorry I posted that twice, but the first time I got it back and it
said the iris had closed or something. . .it was from Owner@*****.

Anyway, sure you can tie the guard up, but can you take that kind of
time when you're being chased? Or when a dozen go-gangers are revving
up to give you new treads?

J Roberson
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@********.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 13:33:37 +0930
Well, my all-time favourite trick for incapicitating people is the ye olde
Narcoject Pistol. Admittedly, it's got some problems like low ammo, and high
cost, but it works better than anything else.

BTW, SRI & II say tasers can be either wire-connected, or have capicitators in
the darts. Says something about how the capicitators have to be recharged, and
it takes forever, I think.

--
Robert Watkins
bob@******.cs.ntu.edu.au
************ It wouldn't be luck if you could get out of life alive. ***********
Message no. 9
From: Matt Vanek <aa2239@*******.LORAIN.OBERLIN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 00:17:59 -0400
>
>Hey, sorry I posted that twice, but the first time I got it back and it
>said the iris had closed or something. . .it was from Owner@*****.
>
>Anyway, sure you can tie the guard up, but can you take that kind of
>time when you're being chased? Or when a dozen go-gangers are revving
>up to give you new treads?
>
>J Roberson
>
>
I'm not saying that a quick kill is nopt sometimes helpful, but
i am saying that it is not always needed.

--
Even though, after all, it's only natural, | Lcfn:aa2239/Cfn:ab148
I'm Childish | Matt Vanek:
--The Judybats, don't drop the baby | The Iron Claw; aka.
Huh? Nevermind. I donno, I just got here. | Zxquebly Bejru
Message no. 10
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 23:11:02 -0500
On Wed, 28 Jul 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> Kudos to Rob for
> 1)standing up for something

I'm just glad I live in a country where one can DO that, but all of those
things are for another forum.

> 2)reality checking the rules

I personally believe that the tasers in SR are WIMPY. In RL we're talking
one taser dart taking out SIX persons (although Jen and I got the brunt of
the charge, the others were much less effected) Assuming we all had
'average' BODY ratings for a human, that's 18 BODY stats that got
whompled. Willpower has nothing to do with resisting this (at least
mental willpower). You are shocked and you fall down and quiver.
Thinking about it is the last thing on your mind.

This is interesting, because if you remember back to the Rodney King case
(and I don't want to get into an argument about the case itself), one of
the arguments put forth by the state was the fact after the chase ended
and they were attempting to subdue King, they hit him with not one, but
TWO tasers, and yet he continued to 'fight back'. Apparently, PCP endows
in the recipient of a taser burst resistance to the shock and it ws the
contention of the State that it was believed that Kind was on PCP because
of this.

Anyways, sorry to digress a little bit.


> >From GURPS High Tech:
> Tasers are available circa 1970. They use compressed gas to fire a
> dart at the target. The dart is connected to a battery which delivers an
> electric charge. Subject rolls vs Will to avoid being stunned AS LONG AS
> THE DARTS ARE CONNECTED. A stunned character cannot remove the darts.
>
> I have some questions about the Pulsar, and ranged stun weapons in general?
> Do you suppose that in the future they'll somehow be able to get rid of the
> wires? like a cpacitor in the dart or something? That could result in less
> power.

If I remember correctly (and I'm too lazy to find my book at look it up),
where are two types of tasers in SR. One was a dart connected to a
capacitor. It was all in one unit. The other one was a dart with a
trailing wire which did more 'damage'.

Obviously the 'trailing wire' version is a hinderance. You really only
have one shot and it is cumbersome to use. A dart/capacitor is relatively
low-tech item to make, with size and effectiveness being your limiting
factors.

> Why not use Tasers? Well, they don't kill people; they'll wake up afterwards
> and sound the alawrm. Simple, some say: Kill them once capacitated. All fine
> and good if you play ruthless, efficient runners. But I don't think stabbing
> a convulsing man on the ground who's just doing his job is very heroic. And
> for most people in real life, even trained soldiers, killing someone like that
> is a threshold that is difficult to cross; some GMs may require a Willpower
> roll for some characters to bring themselves to be so brutal.

I've run a character that used a 'taser shotgun'. This essentially was a
Roomsweeper where the shell ammo was ~30 darts packed together in the shell.
Each dart individually was pretty wimpy, but since you would get hit by
several, they were cumulitive (the distance you were from the target
determined how many or few darts hit ya). [I'll write up some rules when I
get around to it]. Of course, bullets were rather expensive (~100 =Y=
apiece).

What was nice is the fact that the character developed a reputation and
was highly sought after. He not only was good, but when a corp found out
that they had just been robbed by 'Sparky', they felt much better because
they knew they didn't have to replace 20 guards. And one time, the corp
got a drop on him and ended up releasing him because the three previous
times he robbed the company, he didn't blow up 9/10 of the buildings and
wipe out all of the guards.

Kinda a little professional courtesy there, I guess.

{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ #include <std_disclaimer.h> <]}
{[> \ /__ ------------------------------- <]}
{[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ / Bigotry is what is incompatible <]}
{[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ with military service. <]}
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Message no. 11
From: The Reverend <MDB0213@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Tasers...
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 01:16:46 -0500
Just another thought about tasers:
I'm running a character who works for a courier service. We agreed that me and
the "enemies" were professional rivals ONLY. Outside of the job, we could
actually be friends, but all that dies when you're On The Job. This way, I can
incapacitate them, without having to worry about a friend dying. Then again,
they DO have (Body)number of minutes to get some first aid, don't they?

Rev
---
The Reverend (NEW ADDRESS! mdb0213@****.tamu.edu)
"They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained"
aka
Head Shot "A Head Shot a day keeps the Doktor away"
Message no. 12
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Tasers
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 17:18:50 +0100
On Wed, 31 May 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >This is especially useful when do Stun damage as its easy to say okay
> >you're knocked out and take a Moderate Physical as well (for Deadly+2).
>
> Or to let players kill someone they only want to knock out... a 10S Stun
> taser can now kill if you get 10 successes :)
Call me evil but I don't allow taser damages to be staged up as the
electric charge is the same voltage no matter what. I admit that where
you hit someone may affect the damage but my rule also prevents every
character using one, I mean 10S damage, *half* IMPACT armour and a
general +2 TN for a base time of 10 turns, seems enough incentive to me!


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 13
From: Brett Ryan Brown <calvinoi@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 16:38:26 18000
> Call me evil but I don't allow taser damages to be staged up as the
> electric charge is the same voltage no matter what.

Well, although this may be totally obvious, I just up the required
successes for staging to 3 or 4. One of my most often used house rules,
considering how many of my players use taser weapons (every single one :-)

--
_/_/_/_/ _ calvinoi@*******.scri.fsu.edu
_/ | | _ _
_/ __ _ | | __ __ (_) _ _ ___ (_) Fight the War.
_/ / _` | | | \ V / | | | ' \ / _ \ | | Fuck the Norm.
_/_/_/_/ \__,_| |_| \_/ |_| |_||_\ \___/ |_| Don't Conform.
================================================ --------------
Message no. 14
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 20:22:39 BST
> Call me evil but I don't allow taser damages to be staged up as the
> electric charge is the same voltage no matter what. I admit that where
> you hit someone may affect the damage but my rule also prevents every
> character using one, I mean 10S damage, *half* IMPACT armour and a
> general +2 TN for a base time of 10 turns, seems enough incentive to me!

'ts exactly how I do it chummer, OTOH if you actually hit someone with a
stun-baton, rather than just goose them ;-), then you should get sap
damage too. I believe the stun-baton's +1 reach is due to the fact that you
only have to touch the guy and press the buton to give him a charge.

'You have the right to do the 250=Jive'
'You have the right to lie on the floor smoking'
'You have the right to cyberware damage '
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 15
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 01:13:02 -0700
First of all I would like to say I'm baaack..It has been a long time..Too
long..But now I'm here and I guess it is time to stick my nose in..By the way
I love cut and paste..This was chopped and hacked from posts until they only
barely resemble the originale... :)

.. The "incapacitated for 3d6-(number of success on Body(8) test)
> >unless damage completely resisted" means that anyone you hit
> >with this is down for a few
> >turns...

That is a deffinite Afirm..And anyone who completely resisted the stunning
effects of this little love toy is probably bi-polar [or has another similar
imbalace] or only has the most primative portions of their lizzard brains
functioning...

> Incapacitated doesn't mean out of it... if you read the rules under
> tasers in the main book, it means there's
> a + to target numbers (based on the number of successes you got).
> Incapacitated does indeed mean out of it..That is one of the reasons it is
called Stun Damage...And that is what the increase in target numbers
represents...

> i adjust taser to 1.5 times impact as ceramic / cloth armour should
> insulate you if it stops the dart, however the things still work
> quite well.
>I am not certain if you are talking about a blend of ceramics and cloth or
are speaking about 2 kinds of armour..Cloth and Ceramic...I will adress this
one as though you are talking about 2 kinds of armour..I would completely
agree that ceramics are excellent insulators and would offer the best
protection from an electrical stun..However..cloth armour..I would have to
dissagree..Even though you are refering to a form of kevlar..I doubt it would
offer much insulation..I have experiance with real life Stun technology..When
I was being trained in the use of an Electronic Response Device [ERD] we had
to stun ourselves and each other a number of times..cloth offers no
protection at all...Neither does a heavy leather coat..The device we use does
not fire a barbed projectile..It must be applied in direct contact like the
stun baton in SRII...

I have seen what happens to a person that is stunned with this 50,000 Volt
device..Well lets just say they end up Very out of it..One time a guy lost
conciousness after a partial 5 second application...
Well I guess this post is quite long enough..
-------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 16
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:26:29 GMT
GRANITE writes
>
> > i adjust taser to 1.5 times impact as ceramic / cloth armour should
> > insulate you if it stops the dart, however the things still work
> > quite well.
> >I am not certain if you are talking about a blend of ceramics and cloth or
> are speaking about 2 kinds of armour..Cloth and Ceramic...I will adress this
> one as though you are talking about 2 kinds of armour..
i was taking the fact that SR armours use these a lot, wihout being
too specific, i don't want to have to have 'armour rating vs tasers'
column. (though i argee that without it any rule is a compromise.)

> I would completely
> agree that ceramics are excellent insulators and would offer the best
> protection from an electrical stun..However..cloth armour..I would have to
> dissagree..Even though you are refering to a form of kevlar..I doubt it would
> offer much insulation..I have experiance with real life Stun technology.
ah help!
I was working from the fact that as written SR taser are THE weapon
and that in the Hero system they are good but 'armour = immune' as i
know too little about real tasers.

>.When
> I was being trained in the use of an Electronic Response Device [ERD] we had
> to stun ourselves and each other a number of times..cloth offers no
> protection at all...Neither does a heavy leather coat..The device we use does
> not fire a barbed projectile..It must be applied in direct contact like the
> stun baton in SRII...
>
> I have seen what happens to a person that is stunned with this 50,000 Volt
> device.
that explains lots i knew the voltage was going to be high but at
that sort of level shoe soles, ordinary coats etc aren't going to help
much.

Mark
Message no. 17
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 11:48:48 -0500
At 01:18 PM 7/31/96 GMT, you wrote:
>> >Yep! The Yamaha Pulsar (NAGRL) is THE nastiest man-portable wepon in the
>> >game... The "incapacitated for 3d6-(number of success on Body(8) test)
>> >unless
>> >damage completely resisted" means that anyone you hit with this (with
the
>> >possible excpetion of as REALLY thick Tasnk Troll(tm)) is down for a few
>> >turns... <evil (checks hat) GM laugh here>

>> Incapacitated doesn't mean out of it... if you read the rules under
>> tasers in the main book, it means there's
>> a + to target numbers (based on the number of successes you got).
>>
>>
>thats for the defiance super shock, unfortunately the yamaha pulsar
>(NAGRL) has its own rules and as written is simply the most leathal
>weapon is SR

Which brings up an interesting point. The NAGRL was written about the same
time SR2 rules were coming out - all the damage codes are written as SR1
with SR2 add-ons. Perhaps the rules for the Yamaha Pulsar were done before
the rules for Shock Weapons in the SR2 rule book were written. FASA could
have thought that how they wrote the Pulsar was how tasers/shock wpns would
work in Shadowrun 2nd Ed. Obviously, the Shock Weapons rules in the SR2
book are different - perhaps this is FASA trying to correct the way the
Pulsar works.

For reference, here's what the SR2 rule book says on page 103:

An additional effect of a successful hit by a stun weapon [besides only
doing Stun damage] is that the target is stunned for a number of Combat
Turns equal to the power of the attack, minus one-half (round down) any
Impact armor worn, and minus the successes generated from a Body or
Willpower (whichever is greater) Test made against a Target Number 4. This
state of disorientation imposes an additional +2 target modifier to all test
for the duration.

The definition of a shock weapon ["both melee-combat stun batons and
ranged-combat tasers", SR2 p. 103; "shock weapon" and "stun
weapon" appear
to mean the same thing in this section] fits the Yamaha Pulsar.

So the only question is which was written first, the Shock Weapons rules in
the SR2 main book or the Yamaha Pulsar damage rules in the NAGRL? If the
SR2 book came first, the Pulsar rules work fine, just like VR2.0 replaces
the Matrix section in the SR2 book. If the NARGL came first, then the Shock
Weapons rules may have been an attempt at correcting the Pulsar mistake.

Does anyone have a copy of the SR1 rule book? What do the rules say about
shock/stun weapons, if anything?

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"So my love, are you ready to get snockered tonight?"
-"Bill" to his wife.
Message no. 18
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 10:30:07 +0100
Faux Pas said on 11:48/ 3 Aug 96...

> Which brings up an interesting point. The NAGRL was written about the same
> time SR2 rules were coming out - all the damage codes are written as SR1
> with SR2 add-ons. Perhaps the rules for the Yamaha Pulsar were done before
> the rules for Shock Weapons in the SR2 rule book were written. FASA could
> have thought that how they wrote the Pulsar was how tasers/shock wpns would
> work in Shadowrun 2nd Ed. Obviously, the Shock Weapons rules in the SR2
> book are different - perhaps this is FASA trying to correct the way the
> Pulsar works.
>
> For reference, here's what the SR2 rule book says on page 103:
>
[rules snipped]
>
> The definition of a shock weapon ["both melee-combat stun batons and
> ranged-combat tasers", SR2 p. 103; "shock weapon" and "stun
weapon" appear
> to mean the same thing in this section] fits the Yamaha Pulsar.
>
> So the only question is which was written first, the Shock Weapons rules in
> the SR2 main book or the Yamaha Pulsar damage rules in the NAGRL? If the
> SR2 book came first, the Pulsar rules work fine, just like VR2.0 replaces
> the Matrix section in the SR2 book. If the NARGL came first, then the Shock
> Weapons rules may have been an attempt at correcting the Pulsar mistake.
>
> Does anyone have a copy of the SR1 rule book? What do the rules say about
> shock/stun weapons, if anything?

The Yamaha Puslar works different than SR1 taser rules, too. The rules
for tasers there are hidden quite well in the Equipment chapter, on page
120, but they state:

"Police and security forces favor these electroshock weapons in
low-threat environments. The standard model fires a dart that trails a
10-meter wire. An electrical charge surges down the wire to incapacitate
the target as long as the current flows. The Victim makes a Body
Resistance Test with a Target Number of 10 to avoid the effect. After the
current stops, it takes the victim some time (10 - Body Rating in turns)
to recover from the muscular convulsions. A variant of these weapons
fires darts that contain high-capacitance batteries. The darts discharge
on contact, stunning the target, effectively paralyzing him for 2D6
turns. The victim makes a Body Resistance Test with a Target Number of 6,
and each success reduces the number of turns of paralyses."

This helps almost nothing, also because it is not defined what type the
Defiance Super Shock is -- the wire-trailing model or the
dart-with-batteries type; all we know is it fires "heavy darts." Stun
batons use different rules, explained on page 118:

"The baton needs only to touch a victim to cause five turns of
disorientation (+2 for all Target Numbers). The victim makes a Body
Resistance Test, reducing the duration by one turn for each success."

As I recall, we tended to use a combination of these two rulings for both
ranged and melee taser weapons, applying a +2 TN modifier for a number of
turns, but I can't remember how many turns (this was about 3 1/2 years
ago).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't waste your time with your visions of the future and your party lines.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 19
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:03:49 -0700
Gurth wrote:
> This helps almost nothing, also because it is not defined what type the
> Defiance Super Shock is -- the wire-trailing model or the
> dart-with-batteries type; all we know is it fires "heavy darts." Stun
> batons use different rules, explained on page 118:
> Actually..NAGRL states specifically that the dart is a charged capacitor
eliminating the trailing wires of other kinds of stun dart tech..I am not
sure where you got the "heavy darts" from...However I would rule that it
still be overall governed by the same rules as a Taser; since it does indeed
fire a dart..The biggest differance is it only fires a single dart..A Taser
will not work without 2 darts making contact with the victim..Thus closing
the circut and allowing the disrupting charge to flow, instead of pissing the
guy off with 1 dart stuck in his chest...
-------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 20
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:22:14 -0700
Mark Steedman wrote:
> > dissagree..Even though you are refering to a form of kevlar..I doubt it >
> > would offer much insulation..I have experiance with real life Stun
> > technology.

Although, I must admit I have not been able to test this one..I can't get
anyone to hold still long enough to test this one..And since I don't have any
Kevlar I can't test it out on myself..If I am ever able to test this one I
will let you know..Although I have tested the transmission power of the
device through a steel plate..Holding my hand on the plate aproximately 6
inches away..I could only feel a slight tingle..And with my hand on the
shoulder of a subject being stunned nothing could be felt at all by me..Not
even the slightest tingle..

> > I have seen what happens to a person that is stunned with this 50,000 > >
Volt device...

I have seen devices rated at much higher..The highest I have seen is 200,000
Volts..Now that would light up your life...

> that explains lots i knew the voltage was going to be high but at
> that sort of level shoe soles, ordinary coats etc aren't going to help
> much.

Actually since the device is designed to be non-lethal the Amps are extremely
low..Something like .025 Milliamps..It can be used on a subject with a pace
maker with complete safety..It is the Amps that kills..The devices in SR must
be more like a cattle prod..Both high Amps and Volts..that is the only way
they could actually kill...

-------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 21
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 01:27:23 -0600 (CST)
>Gurth wrote:
>> This helps almost nothing, also because it is not defined what type the
>> Defiance Super Shock is -- the wire-trailing model or the
>> dart-with-batteries type; all we know is it fires "heavy darts." Stun
>> batons use different rules, explained on page 118:
>> Actually..NAGRL states specifically that the dart is a charged capacitor
>eliminating the trailing wires of other kinds of stun dart tech..I am not
>sure where you got the "heavy darts" from...However I would rule that it
>still be overall governed by the same rules as a Taser; since it does indeed
>fire a dart..The biggest differance is it only fires a single dart..A Taser
>will not work without 2 darts making contact with the victim..Thus closing
>the circut and allowing the disrupting charge to flow, instead of pissing the
>guy off with 1 dart stuck in his chest...


Unless the dart has 2 pionts (leads). Charge a 5amp cap and toss it to a
"friend".

Ahzmandius
Message no. 22
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:44:35 -0700
Ahzmandius wrote:
> Unless the dart has 2 pionts (leads).

That is a a good point [No pun intended] a single dart with dual leads
and a dual contact point would work..Howerever, [there is always a but]
this would reduce the effectiveness of the charge, since the charge would
be spread over a reduced area [the distance between the contact points]
when the distance is several inches the device work with increased
effectiveness..At least that is what we were taught when we were being
trained to use the ERD...

> Charge a 5amp cap and toss it to a "friend".

Then all that is left is attending the funural ;)
-------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 23
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:34:26 +0100
GRANITE said on 0:03/ 5 Aug 96...

> > This helps almost nothing, also because it is not defined what type the
> > Defiance Super Shock is -- the wire-trailing model or the
> > dart-with-batteries type; all we know is it fires "heavy darts."
>
> Actually..NAGRL states specifically that the dart is a charged capacitor
> eliminating the trailing wires of other kinds of stun dart tech..I am not
> sure where you got the "heavy darts" from...However I would rule that it
> still be overall governed by the same rules as a Taser; since it does indeed
> fire a dart..The biggest differance is it only fires a single dart.

The heavy darts thing comes from the SRI rulebook, in the description of
the Super Shock. The easiest way to solve all this IMHO is to use the SRII
taser rules to all taser-like weapons, and add the 3D6 turns of
incapacitation that the Pulsar gives to that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't waste your time with your visions of the future and your party lines.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Message no. 24
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 10:53:25 GMT
GRANITE writes

> I have seen devices rated at much higher..The highest I have seen is 200,000
> Volts..Now that would light up your life...
>
> > that explains lots i knew the voltage was going to be high but at
> > that sort of level shoe soles, ordinary coats etc aren't going to help
> > much.
>
> Actually since the device is designed to be non-lethal the Amps are extremely
> low..Something like .025 Milliamps..It can be used on a subject with a pace
> maker with complete safety..It is the Amps that kills..
well overall power to be more precise, thats how folks can die of a
few hundred volts or live through ligtning, though where it stikes
the body and how damp it is (determining skin resistance matters as
well)

> The devices in SR must
> be more like a cattle prod..Both high Amps and Volts..that is the only way
> they could actually kill...
Yeah, having seen NPC's reduced to perm dead by excessive taser fire.

The voltage however will determine what sort of things count as
insulating protection. A lot of materials everyone considers
insulators will conduct quite happily if you apply enough volts.

Mark
Message no. 25
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Tasers
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 15:20:09 EST
-----------this is a reply------------------
> Actually..NAGRL states specifically that the dart is a charged capacitor
eliminating the trailing wires of other kinds of stun dart tech..I am not sure
where you got the "heavy darts" from...However I would rule that it still be
overall governed by the same rules as a Taser; since it does indeed fire a
dart..The biggest differance is it only fires a single dart..A Taser will not
work without 2 darts making contact with the victim..Thus closing the circut
and allowing the disrupting charge to flow, instead of pissing the guy off
with 1 dart stuck in his chest... -------------------------------GRANITE
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Now where did you get that idea? 2 darts? nonsense. Imagine those darts as
supercharged static electricity batteries or something. You are confused as to
circuits'+ and - poles perhaps? both are on the same dart.
Ferri
Message no. 26
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Tasers
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 96 15:22:52 EST
-------------------------------reply----------------

>Gurth wrote:
>> This helps almost nothing, also because it is not defined what
ype the >> Defiance S
uper Shock is -- the wire-trailing model or the
>>
dart-with-batteries typ
e;
a
ll we know is i
t fires "heavy darts." Stun >> batons use different rules, explained on
pag
e 118:
>> Actually..NAGRL states specifically that the dart i
s a charged capacitor >eliminating the trailing wires of other kinds of s
tun dart tech..I am not >sure where you got the "heavy
darts" from...However I would rule that it >still be overall governed by the
same rules as a Taser; since it does indeed >fire a dart..The biggest diff
erance is it only fires a single dart..A Taser >will not work without 2 da
rts making contact with the victim..Thus closing >the circut and allowing the
disrupting charge to flow, instead of pissing the >guy off with 1 dart stuck
in his chest...


Unless the dart has 2 pionts (leads). Charge a 5amp cap and toss it to a
"friend".

Ahzmandius
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh just throw a metal net at someone and plug it into the mains.. :)
F.
Message no. 27
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:08:10 -0500
At 10:30 AM 8/4/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Faux Pas said on 11:48/ 3 Aug 96...
>
>> Which brings up an interesting point. The NAGRL was written about the same
>> time SR2 rules were coming out - all the damage codes are written as SR1
>> with SR2 add-ons.

>The Yamaha Puslar works different than SR1 taser rules, too. The rules
>for tasers there are hidden quite well in the Equipment chapter, on page
>120, but they state:
[Dart with trailing wire] The Victim makes a Body
>Resistance Test with a Target Number of 10 to avoid the effect. After the
>current stops, it takes the victim some time (10 - Body Rating in turns)
>to recover from the muscular convulsions.

[Darts with charge] The darts discharge
>on contact, stunning the target, effectively paralyzing him for 2D6
>turns. The victim makes a Body Resistance Test with a Target Number of 6,
>and each success reduces the number of turns of paralyses."

Both of these are similar to the Yamaha Pulsar rules: Incapacitated for 3d6
turns (by muscle convulsions). Victim makes a Body Resistance Test with a
TN of 8 to reduce numbre of turns. So the Yamaha Pulsar is the
darts-with-charge from SR1 rules with an additional die of paralyzing shock.

Seeing as how the Shock/Stun Weapons have been redone in SR2, the Yamaha
Pulsar damage statement was most likely written before the stun weapons
section of SR2 was written. Therefore, the Shock Weapons section in the
black book on page 103 takes precedence - the 2nd Edition Yamaha Pulsar
should stun the target for 10 combat turns (minus 1/2 [rounded down] any
Impact armor worn, and minus the successes made against a target number of 6
from a Willpower or Body test.) The only effect should be a +2 penalty to
all TNs for that time [or +3, depending on your GM].


-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"So my love, are you ready to get snockered tonight?"
-"Bill" to his wife.
Message no. 28
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Tasers
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 01:04:20 -0700
>The heavy darts thing comes from the SRI rulebook...
Ah..Ok..I have not gotten a copy of the SRI rules yet..one of these days
I will..Just so I can have it for this sort of referance..

>The easiest way to solve all this IMHO is to use the SRII
>taser rules to all taser-like weapons, and add the 3D6 turns of
>incapacitation that the Pulsar gives to that.
That could solve it and account for the improved tech that is supposed to
make the Pulsar more effective...

> >..It is the Amps that kills..

> well overall power to be more precise, thats how folks can die of a
> few hundred volts or live through ligtning...

No..Actually it is the increased Amperage that does things like Fry the
guy in the electric chair..Otherwise Things like the 200,000 Volt stun
baton or stun gun could not be sold over the counter as they would by
leathal weapons not listed as Non-lethal weapons..If a charge with a few
hundred volts kills a person it is because of High Amps...

> Yeah, having seen NPC's reduced to perm dead by excessive taser fire.

And now I see why..In the Street Sam Cat The add touts more than enough
Amps for your security needs...Ouch..This stuff is designed to be
lethal...
-----
>Now where did you get that idea?

The way a Taser works in real life and are refered to in the SR source
books...

> 2 darts? nonsense.

No..not nonsense..2 darts each trailing a wire attached to the power pack
in the handle of the Taser..when "both" darts impact and are able to form
a closed circuit with your body in between..you do the electric jerk
until the power is switched off...

> Imagine those darts as supercharged static electricity batteries or >
> something.

It is called a capacitor which can instantly dissapate its charge when
touched or grounded...This is why it is still not safe to open the back
of a TV just after you unplugg it..there are some heavy duty capacitors
in there that can just ruin your day if you touch them...

>You are confused as to circuits'+ and - poles perhaps? both are on the
>same dart.

No I believe you are confused between the way a Pulsar works and the way
a Taser works...A Pulsar uses a charged capacitor which instantly
dissapates upon impact [no wires and more than likely a single contact
point]..A Taser fires [usually sharp and barbed] electrodes attached to
wires which are in turn attached to a power source

>Oh just throw a metal net at someone and plug it into the mains.. :)
That should pretty much put an end to your problems..Of course it would
probably put out the lights as well..The breaker should throw shortly
after plug in time...Always the party-pooper ;)
-------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 29
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tasers
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 12:39:32 +0100
Ferri Pagano said on 15:22/ 5 Aug 96...

> Oh just throw a metal net at someone and plug it into the mains.. :)

Try CP2020's Chromebook 2, that has a netgun firing a taser net...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Back to the known.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 30
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: Tasers
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 96 10:15:31 EST
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Tasers

-----
>Now where did you get that idea?

The way a Taser works in real life and are refered to in the SR source
books...

> 2 darts? nonsense.

No..not nonsense..2 darts each trailing a wire attached to the power pack
in the handle of the Taser..when "both" darts impact and are able to form
a closed circuit with your body in between..you do the electric jerk
until the power is switched off...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really necessary, you just need grounding, and the floor works REAL
nice to create a circuit, you just need a single pole, the earth supplies
the other.
Though a 2-dart thingie could affect flying mages.... :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Imagine those darts as supercharged static electricity batteries or >
> something.

It is called a capacitor which can instantly dissapate its charge when
touched or grounded...This is why it is still not safe to open the back
of a TV just after you unplugg it..there are some heavy duty capacitors
in there that can just ruin your day if you touch them...

>You are confused as to circuits'+ and - poles perhaps? both are on the
>same dart.

No I believe you are confused between the way a Pulsar works and the way
a Taser works...A Pulsar uses a charged capacitor which instantly
dissapates upon impact [no wires and more than likely a single contact
point]..A Taser fires [usually sharp and barbed] electrodes attached to
wires which are in turn attached to a power source
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is no longer necessarily true under sr2, tasers come in all 3
variants according to the base book, hand-held, wires and charged darts
though I forget if those last are single-shot or semi-auto.
I had wondered about that difference, though.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

>Oh just throw a metal net at someone and plug it into the mains.. :)
That should pretty much put an end to your problems..Of course it would
probably put out the lights as well..The breaker should throw shortly
after plug in time...Always the party-pooper ;)
----------GRANITE
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferri
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tasers
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:19:16 -0700
> No..not nonsense..2 darts each trailing a wire attached to the power pack
> in the handle of the Taser..when "both" darts impact and are able to form
> a closed circuit with your body in between..you do the electric jerk
> until the power is switched off...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Not really necessary, you just need grounding, and the floor works REAL
> nice to create a circuit, you just need a single pole, the earth supplies
> the other.============
EEEEEEERRRRTTTTT..Thanks for playing our game..Sorry but I think you have
been watching too many JC VanDam films...The whole idea is if a short circuit
is created..And the whole deal of 2 darts is to keep the effects target
specific..If one electrode hits to target and the other hits the ground the
target gets an extremely light wound [the kind you get from a fish hook
except it can go in as much as a cm...and nothing else happens to the
target...things like shoe leather, dirt and such become enough of an
insulator preventing the flow of electricity...they are designed to function
this way...
=====
> Though a 2-dart thingie could affect flying mages.... :)=====
Yea..I can see some runner in the middle with a mage circling around his head
like one of those battery operated airplanes on a cable I had as a kid...;)
=====
> This is no longer necessarily true under sr2, tasers come in all 3
> variants according to the base book, hand-held, wires and charged darts
> though I forget if those last are single-shot or semi-auto.
> I had wondered about that difference, though.=====
Now you lost me...What is not necessarily true?? I agree that they come in
all 3 varieties...The Pulsar fires SA however anything with wires would have
to be SF..Upon some resarch I find that the supershock is SA as well..This
could be a real mess with a 4 round Magazine..you would have 8 wires hanging
out of the barrel all arrached to the same power pack..Oh and by the way in
the discription of the SuperShocker it refers to side by side darts..Just
like the ones we have today..
-------------------------------GRANITE

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