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Message no. 1
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:32:30 -0000
Hello all,

I am curious to know what you all think about the possibility of teleportation in the SR
world using technological (not magical) means and have a few related questions. I'm no
physicist, so please don't flame me too hard for asking this stuff.

First, is it theoretically possible according to what we know today? If so, is it
practical? I would assume this would take a lot of energy and don't know if the energy
required would be available or even worth harvesting.

I'm not talking about personal transporters or anything like that. Rather, long distance
(world-wide) transportation of goods via fixed stations equipped for teleportation.

If it's possible, could it be cost-effective as an alternative to physically transporting
certain items?

I know the idea's out there, but I just had to ask.

Thanks for your opinions.

Justin


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Message no. 2
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:49:58 -0800
At 19:32 3/16/99 +0000, Kelson wrote:
>First, is it theoretically possible according to what we know today?

The only decent method of bulk teleportation is an Einstein-Rosen Bridge,
the original "wormhole". (Which would look and act *nothing* like the
one on Deep Space 9.) Nothing theoretically precludes their existence,
but making one would be incredibly difficult, and making one that you already
found into something safe for people to travel through would be merely
extremely difficult.

The "quantum tunneling" notion of teleportation is only effective across
very short distances for individual particles. Yes, you can arrange that
individual particles can "leak" across a solid barrier. The probability
involved decays exponentially with distance (and we're talking microscopic
distances here), and coercing an organized batch of particles to suddenly
tunnel simultaneously and arrive at a new position in their same organization
is well beyond our current understanding of physics.

> If so,
>is it practical?

No. It requires effort on the order of manufacturing your own sizable
black holes, and it's probably not bright to leave one on the surface
of your homeworld. By the time you can manage wormholes, you should
be shipping orbital-manufactured products down the space elevator
to the residents of your garden planet that has shipped all heavy
industry offworld.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 3
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:57:53 -0800
At 07:32 PM 3/16/99 -0000, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>I am curious to know what you all think about the possibility of
teleportation in the SR world using technological (not magical) means and
have a few related questions. I'm no physicist, so please don't flame me
too hard for asking this stuff.
>
>First, is it theoretically possible according to what we know today? If
so, is it practical? I would assume this would take a lot of energy and
don't know if the energy required would be available or even worth harvesting.
>
>I'm not talking about personal transporters or anything like that.
Rather, long distance (world-wide) transportation of goods via fixed
stations equipped for teleportation.
>
>If it's possible, could it be cost-effective as an alternative to
physically transporting certain items?
>
>I know the idea's out there, but I just had to ask.
>
>Thanks for your opinions.
>
>Justin


Heh, I know Adam is going to tear this one apart, but I have to give it a
try. On the subatomic/quantam mechanics level, teleportation happens. By
that I mean, a particle can be in one place, adn then be in another,
without traversing the intervening space. The trouble with this is that
the probabibility of this happening decreases exponentially with the mass
of the particle. By the time you get to the size of an atom or so, the
chance of it happening is virtually zero.

Now, if there were someway to increase the probilbility of this happening
to a specific set of atoms, say the set of atoms involved in the formation
of a human body, then you could have teleportation. Maybe. How you would
make this happen is totally beyond me. If I knew how, I would patent it,
and be richer then Mr Gates... Heh.

Now, you have to think of the consequences of having reliable
teleportation. First, the transportation industry would be completely
changed. Logistics in warfare would also be incredibly altered.
Lifestyles would change; imagine living in Brazil, and commuting to the
UCAS every morning by way of teleportation. (As an example)

I, for one, would not want this in my game; I think it would completely
change the world, and alter the SR setting far beyond what FASA intended.
However, you may think differently.

Dave
Message no. 4
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:09:47 -0000
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:57:53 Dave Post wrote:

<Snip>

>Now, you have to think of the consequences of having reliable
>teleportation. First, the transportation industry would be completely
>changed. Logistics in warfare would also be incredibly altered.
>Lifestyles would change; imagine living in Brazil, and commuting to the
>UCAS every morning by way of teleportation. (As an example)

This wasn't how I was looking at implementing the technology (should it exist). I was
more interested in it at it's infancy. Perhaps only used for certain types of heavy
shipments, etc. This would certainly not be something that Joe Anyone would use simply to
commute to work, etc. And it wouldn't be very common. It would be used by a limited few
(perhaps only the Megacorp that produced it) for special shipments. It wouldn't be at the
warfare stages yet (after all, it's not portable and it would require that the destination
be heavily prepared beforehand, etc). It would be site-to-site only, meaning that there
is a fixed starting point and a fixed ending point. These would be the only places it
could be used, etc.

>I, for one, would not want this in my game; I think it would completely
>change the world, and alter the SR setting far beyond what FASA intended.
>However, you may think differently.

I guess it's just a matter of degree of implementation. I simply thought this might be an
intriging technology to have introduced to the world without it becoming anything that the
PCs would ever have to worry about interacting with in any way.

>Dave

Justin


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Message no. 5
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:19:35 -0800
At 08:09 PM 3/16/99 -0000, you wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:57:53 Dave Post wrote:
>>I, for one, would not want this in my game; I think it would completely
>>change the world, and alter the SR setting far beyond what FASA intended.
>>However, you may think differently.
>
>I guess it's just a matter of degree of implementation. I simply thought
this might be an intriging technology to have introduced to the world
without it becoming anything that the PCs would ever have to worry about
interacting with in any way.
>
>>Dave
>
>Justin
Hey, like I said, you may see it differently.

As for warfare, heres how it could be used. The UCAS Marines take the
beach of some foreign country. All they own is maybe some airspace, and
the first few miles off that beach. In comes the components for the
destination point trasporter. Maybe it takes some large hover craft to
bring in the components. Whatever works. They emasure the site and the
location using incredibly accurate global positioning systems (As it works
today, you can get down to the nearest meter, if you have the decryption
code for the satellites. In 2060, I imagine the degree of accuracy could
be down to the nearest millimeter. Accurate enough for me) Then, if the
technology is mature enough for heavy loads, as you said elsewhere in your
post that I snipped, they start bringing in main battle tanks and such,
directly from their base in the UCAS. This alone would make a HUGE
difference in warfare, as one of the largest problems facing us today is
being able to quicly mobilize to far parts of the world. It took many
months building up our strength in Desert Storm, and we only were able to
do it because Hussein was a fool and didn't attack earlier.

Anyhow, like I said, you may think otherwise, but if you do bring in
teleportation, be sure to account for all the consequences.

Dave
Message no. 6
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:52:46 -0800
At 12:19 3/16/99 -0800, Dave Post wrote:
> They emasure the site and the
>location using incredibly accurate global positioning systems (As it works
>today, you can get down to the nearest meter, if you have the decryption
>code for the satellites. In 2060, I imagine the degree of accuracy could
>be down to the nearest millimeter. Accurate enough for me)

I think you might run into problems with the wavelength of the
signal from the GPS satellites or the resolution of their timing
codes if you want to get that precise.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 7
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:51:08 EST
In a message dated 3/16/99 3:11:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, kelson13@***
dejanews.com writes:

> This wasn't how I was looking at implementing the technology (should it
exist)
> . I was more interested in it at it's infancy. Perhaps only used for
> certain types of heavy shipments, etc. This would certainly not be
something
> that Joe Anyone would use simply to commute to work, etc. And it wouldn't
be
> very common. It would be used by a limited few (perhaps only the Megacorp
> that produced it) for special shipments. It wouldn't be at the warfare
> stages yet (after all, it's not portable and it would require that the
> destination be heavily prepared beforehand, etc). It would be site-to-site
> only, meaning that there is a fixed starting point and a fixed ending point.
> These would be the only places it could be used, etc.

In this stage of things, it would have VERY little COMMERCIAL uses, if any at
all. :-)

IMO, such a device would still be transporting only homogenous, single-element
masses, where the end shape of the object is irrelevant. Like, say, gold or
silver, where it'll just get reformed at the recieving end.

Likely, it's also still a laboratory toy. But a run centered around getting a
prototype and/or the plans and research notes could be interesting; just
stress it's TOTAL (current) ninviability as an APPLIED technology.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 8
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:19:14 EST
In a message dated 3/16/99 3:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
slothman@*********.org writes:

> I think you might run into problems with the wavelength of the
> signal from the GPS satellites or the resolution of their timing
> codes if you want to get that precise.

IIRC current military GPS measurements are accurate to within LESS than a
meter (something like 0.1m or 0.2m ... ?).

And with MULTIPLE GPS modules, you CAN get a more accurate reading; a contest
in autonomous robotics (get a robot to pick up a metal disc, fly across a
field with a wall in the middle (all of 2' high), and deposit the disk in a 1m
diameter circular target) I saw on a Discovery or TLS channel show had a
helicopter with some FIVE GPS modules, and a single base station for
reference. The little sucker was able to pinpoint itself, at least in
relation to the base station unit, to within some 1-2 CENTIMETERS, IIRC. <g>

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 9
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:47:00 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Max Rible hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 19:32 3/16/99 +0000, Kelson wrote:
|>First, is it theoretically possible according to what we know today?
|
|The only decent method of bulk teleportation is an Einstein-Rosen Bridge,
|the original "wormhole". (Which would look and act *nothing* like the
|one on Deep Space 9.)

But would it look and act anything like it's counterpart (which was called
the Einstein-Rosen Bridge in Sliders)???

:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:20:13 -0800
At 21:47 3/16/99 +0000, A Halliwell wrote:
>And verily, did Max Rible hastily scribble thusly...
>|
>|At 19:32 3/16/99 +0000, Kelson wrote:
>|>First, is it theoretically possible according to what we know today?
>|
>|The only decent method of bulk teleportation is an Einstein-Rosen Bridge,
>|the original "wormhole". (Which would look and act *nothing* like the
>|one on Deep Space 9.)
>
>But would it look and act anything like it's counterpart (which was called
>the Einstein-Rosen Bridge in Sliders)???

I've never seen Sliders. If the E-R Bridge on Sliders looked like
a big sphere hovering in space, reflecting the scene at the other
end of the tunnel and having optical distortions around the edge as
light from the local scene bent around it, it was probably pretty
accurate. If there was anything glowing, it was a teleport spell
with a scientific-sounding name.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 11
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:36:28 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Max Rible hastily scribble thusly...
|I've never seen Sliders. If the E-R Bridge on Sliders looked like
|a big sphere hovering in space, reflecting the scene at the other
|end of the tunnel and having optical distortions around the edge as
|light from the local scene bent around it, it was probably pretty
|accurate. If there was anything glowing, it was a teleport spell
|with a scientific-sounding name.

Well....
I suppose they got close then...
The *ORIGINAL* pilot episode, where he opened it for the first time, and
walked around it in shock, examining it....

It looked like a wierd wave-effect floating in mid air. As he walked round
it, it flattened into a totally invisible disk....

(If you know what I'm describing...)

Only later on did the special effects people start having fun with flashing
lights and making it look like a tunnel.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 12
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:09:19 -0800
>In a message dated 3/16/99 3:56:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>slothman@*********.org writes:
>
>> I think you might run into problems with the wavelength of the
>> signal from the GPS satellites or the resolution of their timing
>> codes if you want to get that precise.
>
>IIRC current military GPS measurements are accurate to within LESS than a
>meter (something like 0.1m or 0.2m ... ?).

A couple centimeters, with frequency modulation. GPS satellites have a
built-in uncertainty in their clocks to reduce their effectiveness for the
civilian market. After all, the military doesn't want the other side to get
the benefits of their high-tech GPS net by just buying a receiver.
Unfortunately, they didn't think it through very well and this measure is
trivial to bypass.

>And with MULTIPLE GPS modules, you CAN get a more accurate reading; a contest

Not necessary.

>Sean
>GM Pax

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 13
From: Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: 16 Mar 1999 19:42:12 -0500
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Hash: SHA1

* Dave Post <caelric@****.com> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
| Heh, I know Adam is going to tear this one apart, but I have to give it a
| try. On the subatomic/quantam mechanics level, teleportation happens. By
| that I mean, a particle can be in one place, adn then be in another,
| without traversing the intervening space.

If you are talking about 'electron tunnelling', I hate to break it to you
but it does not really happen -- it only appears to happen because of a
flawed frame of reference.
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--
Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 14
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:47:27 -0800
At 07:42 PM 3/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>* Dave Post <caelric@****.com> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
>| Heh, I know Adam is going to tear this one apart, but I have to give it a
>| try. On the subatomic/quantam mechanics level, teleportation happens. By
>| that I mean, a particle can be in one place, adn then be in another,
>| without traversing the intervening space.
>
>If you are talking about 'electron tunnelling', I hate to break it to you
>but it does not really happen -- it only appears to happen because of a
>flawed frame of reference.
>--
>Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net>

Umm, actually, I was thinking of quantam tunnelling, and from what I
understand, it does actually happen. Of course, I may be wrong.

Dave
Message no. 15
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:55:13 -0800
At 19:42 3/16/99 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>* Dave Post <caelric@****.com> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
>| Heh, I know Adam is going to tear this one apart, but I have to give it a
>| try. On the subatomic/quantam mechanics level, teleportation happens. By
>| that I mean, a particle can be in one place, adn then be in another,
>| without traversing the intervening space.

>If you are talking about 'electron tunnelling', I hate to break it to you
>but it does not really happen -- it only appears to happen because of a
>flawed frame of reference.

Where did you hear that? Electron tunneling was a perfectly
legitimate part of physics when I got my BS back in '93. I
wouldn't call quantum tunneling "teleportation" any more than I
would the ordinary electrical jumping around that is enabling
you to read this message, though...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "This episode of Sorcery Street was brought to you by the letter Omega, %%
%% the number 13, and the element of Air." - me %%
Message no. 16
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:58:23 -0800
Wow, two great physics topics at once. I only have time to research one of
them right now, and Matt Visser's book is close at hand, so:

>The only decent method of bulk teleportation is an Einstein-Rosen Bridge,

An Einstein-Rosen bridge will not work. Crossing one is invariably fatal,
the equivalent of jumping into a black hole.[1]

The Schwarzschild solution to the equations of General Relativity predicts
the "familiar" black hole (which we all now know that the universe may be
one ;-)
The Einstein-Rosen bridge is just a coordinate change to make the
Schwarzschild sigularity "disappear". Modern physics distinguishes between
coordinate singularities (an artifact of your spacetime metric) and
physical singularities. The Einstein-Rosen bridge is just a "coordinate
system (such as, for instance, isotropic coordinates) that only covers the
two asymptotically flat regions of maximally extended Schwarzschild
spacetime." [2]

Just because your coordinate system doesn't cover the singularity doesn't
mean you won't die when you encounter it.

However, I ran a Traveller game that used wormholes that could work. These
are Morris-Thorne wormholes. I think a few Earth masses worth of black hole
would make a gate about 10 meters wide. Unfortunately, they require two
difficult things to make them work (aside from getting together the mass,
making the black hole, cancelling out tidal effects, and making sure
nothing drops in the black hole to incinerate your travelers with
radiation):

1) Negative energy density
2) Exotic matter to prop open the throat to make it traversible by ordinary
people

A negative energy density is almost, but not quite, the equivalent of
negative mass. Unfortunately, no one has ever seen negative mass
(antimatter has positive mass) but there is one way to get negative energy
density: the Casimir effect.

The basics of the Casimir effect is that the vacuum fluctuation energy
(which arises from the sea of elementary particles appearing and
disappearing within the bounds of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle set as
the Energy*Time < Planck's constant divided by 2 pi otherwise known as
H-bar) is less near a boundary such as a metal wall. The Casimir force
arises between two metal plates because the energy density of the vacuum
fluctuations is less between the plates than outside the plates.

By the way, this is the basis for several hoaxes about "Free Energy from
the Vacuum" going around. Yes, there's energy there. One can naively do
calculations for how much, but from astrophysics we know that vacuum
fluctuation energy is at least 22 orders of magnitude less than what is
predicted, or else the universe would have hyperinflated so fast that you
could not see your hand. That's another topic.

At any rate, one could use the Casimir effect to generate negative energy
density which must be at 10E-22. Unfortunately, calculations indicate this
requires two concentric metal shells of Earth size separated by an Angstrom
(10E-10 meters) or less. Not real likely.

Exotic matter is stuff like WIMPs from Astrophysics (Weakly Interacting
Massive Particles) or other stuff that has significant mass but doesn't
interact with normal matter. So you use it to hold open the wormhole while
you walk through it.

However, through some complicated 4D gyrations, once you have a
microwormhole, assuming you can keep the thing from exploding, you can grow
it. So in my Traveller campaign I assumed they found one buried in an
asteroid.

The energies involved are immense. To keep a wormhole restrained, you
essentially have to be able to contain the force of an exploding nuclear
weapon. Not to mention the nasty Cosmic Censorship principles involved if
you happen to cross wormhole worldlines.

There's an involved tract on this stuff at my traveller site at
http://hapkido.ucdavis.edu/traveller/, but I'll have to put those pages
back up (currently down) if there's interest.

>The "quantum tunneling" notion of teleportation is only effective across
>very short distances for individual particles. Yes, you can arrange that
>individual particles can "leak" across a solid barrier. The probability
>involved decays exponentially with distance (and we're talking microscopic
>distances here), and coercing an organized batch of particles to suddenly
>tunnel simultaneously and arrive at a new position in their same organization
>is well beyond our current understanding of physics.

Quantum teleportation works. Unfortunately, it requires phase-entangled
particles (photons, etc) which are general made from pair production or
nonlinear optics. No way to apply this to a material body in the forseeable
future.

Another possibility is the Albuquierre space warp. Last time I checked the
literature, though, it had some fundamental flaws, but I don't remember
what they were.

References:

[1] C.W. Misner, K.S. Thorne, and J.A. Wheeler. _Gravitation_. W.H. Freeman
and Company, San Francisco, 1973
[2] Matt Visser. _Lorentzian Wormholes, from Einstein to Hawking_. American
Institute of Physics, Woodbury, 1996



--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 17
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:15:26 -0800
>>If you are talking about 'electron tunnelling', I hate to break it to you
>>but it does not really happen -- it only appears to happen because of a
>>flawed frame of reference.
>>--
>>Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net>
>
>Umm, actually, I was thinking of quantam tunnelling, and from what I
>understand, it does actually happen. Of course, I may be wrong.

Happens all the time. Basic principle of a tunnel diode.

One of the first things after learning the Schrodinger equation is to
calculate tunneling probability through a square well of n width.

Using the Wentzel-Kramers-Brillouin technique (WKB), one can calculate the
transmission coefficient for an electron traversing an energy barrier as:

T ~= exp (-2 {Integral from x1 to x2} eta(x) dx)

eta(x) = {(2m/H^2)[U(x) - E]}^.5

where H = h-bar or Planck's constant divided by 2 pi, U(x) is the energy
barrier function, x1 and x2 are bounds of the barrier on the x-axis, and E
is the kinetic energy of the electron.

References:

Albert Thomas Fromhold, Jr. _Quantum Mechanics for Applied Physics and
Engineering_. Dover Publications, New York, 1981.

>Dave

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 18
From: Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:44:07 -0500
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* Dave Post <caelric@****.com> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
| Umm, actually, I was thinking of quantam tunnelling, and from what I
| understand, it does actually happen. Of course, I may be wrong.

Same thing... and it only appears to happen because of a flawed (that is,
Newtonian) frame of reference.
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--
Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 19
From: Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: 16 Mar 1999 20:47:41 -0500
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* Max Rible <slothman@*********.org> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
| Where did you hear that? Electron tunneling was a perfectly legitimate
| part of physics when I got my BS back in '93.

Just as the concept of electrons 'jumping' between orbits (they do not).
These are approximations used to explain phenomena that require a lot more
than basic college physics to understand.
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Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 20
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:31:12 -0800
At 20:44 3/16/99 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>* Dave Post <caelric@****.com> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
>| Umm, actually, I was thinking of quantam tunnelling, and from what I
>| understand, it does actually happen. Of course, I may be wrong.
>
>Same thing... and it only appears to happen because of a flawed (that is,
>Newtonian) frame of reference.

The only problems I know of regarding Newtonian frames of reference
are relativistic. Last time I checked, the unification of quantum
physics and general relativity was still a major unsolved problem.

At 20:47 3/16/99 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>* Max Rible <slothman@*********.org> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
>| Where did you hear that? Electron tunneling was a perfectly legitimate
>| part of physics when I got my BS back in '93.
>
>Just as the concept of electrons 'jumping' between orbits (they do not).
>These are approximations used to explain phenomena that require a lot more
>than basic college physics to understand.

Are you referring to something other than the way that a wave function
will ooze around when you're not measuring it, allowing an electron
to transition between the only states at which you can observe it? I've
only had a year of upper division QM, so I'm not up on the latest topics,
but I've never seen Newtonian frames of reference mentioned in QM at that
level before.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 21
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:34:31 -0800
At 08:47 PM 3/16/99 -0500, Rat wrote:
>
>* Max Rible <slothman@*********.org> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
>| Where did you hear that? Electron tunneling was a perfectly legitimate
>| part of physics when I got my BS back in '93.
>
>Just as the concept of electrons 'jumping' between orbits (they do not).
>These are approximations used to explain phenomena that require a lot more
>than basic college physics to understand.
>
>--
>Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
>Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
>

Earlier, Adam replied
>One of the first things after learning the Schrodinger equation is to
>calculate tunneling probability through a square well of n width.
>
>Using the Wentzel-Kramers-Brillouin technique (WKB), one can calculate the
>transmission coefficient for an electron traversing an energy barrier as:
>
>T ~= exp (-2 {Integral from x1 to x2} eta(x) dx)
>
>eta(x) = {(2m/H^2)[U(x) - E]}^.5
>
>where H = h-bar or Planck's constant divided by 2 pi, U(x) is the energy
>barrier function, x1 and x2 are bounds of the barrier on the x-axis, and E
>is the kinetic energy of the electron.
>
>References:
>
>Albert Thomas Fromhold, Jr. _Quantum Mechanics for Applied Physics and
>Engineering_. Dover Publications, New York, 1981.
>
>


Umm, while I am but a lowly undergrad, I do know a couple of things, or at
least enough to understand Adam's equations, and a bit of the theory behind
it...

So, where did I go wrong in thinking that it doesn't happen? Electron
tunneling, I mean...because what I am getting from this is that it does
happen, albeit at infitesmal (sp?) distances and masses...

Dave
Message no. 22
From: Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: 16 Mar 1999 22:04:24 -0500
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* Max Rible <slothman@*********.org> on Tue, 16 Mar 1999
| I've only had a year of upper division QM, so I'm not up on the latest
| topics, but I've never seen Newtonian frames of reference mentioned in QM
| at that level before.

The Newtonian frame of references is the one we exist in, where Newton's
laws apply (or seem to). When you observe Einsteinian or Quantum phenomena
at this level, some impossible things appear to happen. They do not
actually happen, they just appear to happen because the Newtonian frame of
reference is an approximation of reality.

Of course, you start getting into the Quantum level and even more bizarre
things actually do happen :).
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Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
Message no. 23
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:40:30 -0500
Kelson wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:57:53 Dave Post wrote:
>
> <Snip>
>
> >Now, you have to think of the consequences of having reliable
> >teleportation. First, the transportation industry would be completely
> >changed. Logistics in warfare would also be incredibly altered.
> >Lifestyles would change; imagine living in Brazil, and commuting to the
> >UCAS every morning by way of teleportation. (As an example)
>
> This wasn't how I was looking at implementing the technology (should it exist). I
was more interested in it at it's infancy. Perhaps only used for certain types of heavy
shipments, etc. This would certainly not be something that Joe Anyone would use simply to
commute to work, etc. And it wouldn't be very common. It would be used by a limited few
(perhaps only the Megacorp that produced it) for special shipments. It wouldn't be at the
warfare stages yet (after all, it's not portable and it would require that the destination
be heavily prepared beforehand, etc). It would be site-to-site only, meaning that there
is a fixed starting point and a fixed ending point. These would be the only places it
could be used, etc.
>
> >I, for one, would not want this in my game; I think it would completely
> >change the world, and alter the SR setting far beyond what FASA intended.
> >However, you may think differently.
>
> I guess it's just a matter of degree of implementation. I simply thought this might
be an intriging technology to have introduced to the world without it becoming anything
that the PCs would ever have to worry about interacting with in any way.
>
> >Dave
>
> Justin

But then, what's the point?
Message no. 24
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:22:09 -0800
>The Newtonian frame of references is the one we exist in, where Newton's
>laws apply (or seem to). When you observe Einsteinian or Quantum phenomena
>at this level, some impossible things appear to happen. They do not
>actually happen, they just appear to happen because the Newtonian frame of
>reference is an approximation of reality.

Clarification: we're talking apples and oranges here. No one has done
Quantum Relativity yet.

Galilean relativity is the one that is most intuitive to us, and usually
correct. If you have two coordinate systems, x and x', to transform, for
example, velocity between them:

v' = v0 + v

where v' is velocity in the x' frame, v0 is velocity in the x frame, and v
is the velocity of the x frame with respect to the x' frame. Similiar logic
applies to position vectors, but when you transform acceleration there is
the slight complication that inertial forces arise due to an accelerated
frame of reference. In general, (Galilean) relativity holds for
non-accelerated frames of reference.

So, the speed of a bullet on a train from the ground frame of reference is
the velocity of the bullet with respect to the train plus the velocity of
the train with respect to the ground.

This does not apply at velocities approaching light.

When speaking of General Relativity, of course, you are generally doing a
Lorentz transform which is a function of z:

z = 1/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

which gives you time dilation or length contraction, respectively. Of
course, this is Special Relativity, which is a special case of General
Relativity, using "flat" Minkowski spacetime in a non-accelerated frame of
reference. In general one uses the Riemannian curvature tensor.

Newton's law of Gravitation is a special case of the weak field condition
of General Relativity. [1] More specifically, spacetime has to be flat {ie,
Minkowski or diag(-1,1,1,1)} and time-independent. It is only in that sense
that Newtonian gravity could be considered a frame of reference.

Note that frames of reference are basically artifacts of your coordinate
system.

Classical mechanics is accurate at most scales. It does assume that a
continuum exists and coordinate systems can be infinitessimally subdivided
-- a troubling proposition, given the granular nature of reality. Rather
than using Newton's laws; ie forces and his presumptive underlying idea of
"action at a distance", physicists use Hamiltonian dynamics.

Hamilton's principle, upon which it is possible to derive all of classical
mechanics, states:

"Of all the possible paths along which a dynamical system may move from one
point to another within a specified time interval (consistent with any
constraints), the actual path followed is that which minimzes the time
integral of the difference between the kinetic and potential energies."

Lagrange's equations of motion are derived from Hamilton's principle stated
in terms of the calculus of variations.[2]

Quantum mechanics tells us that we cannot repeatedly subdivide reality, and
as a consequence, strange things occur at the very small end of the scale.
Phenomena such as tunneling, Bose-Einstein condensates, quantum
teleportation, Pauli exclusion principle, and a host of other wonderful and
strange effects.

To answer Dave's question, electron tunneling does occur in a real sense
(ie, it is not an artifact of your coordinate system).

>Of course, you start getting into the Quantum level and even more bizarre
>things actually do happen :).

Physics is cool! ;-)

References:

[1] Matt Visser. _Lorentzian Wormholes, from Einstein to Hawking_. American
Institute of Physics, Woodbury, 1996

[2] Jerry B. Marion, Stephen T. Thornton. _Classical Dynamics of Particles
and Systems, 3rd edition_. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, San Diego, 1988

>Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 25
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:34:33 -0800
At 08:22 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Adam wrote:

<snip alot of physics stuff>

>Quantum mechanics tells us that we cannot repeatedly subdivide reality, and
>as a consequence, strange things occur at the very small end of the scale.
>Phenomena such as tunneling, Bose-Einstein condensates, quantum
>teleportation, Pauli exclusion principle, and a host of other wonderful and
>strange effects.
>

I like that explanation of quantam mechanics...'we cannot repeatedly
subdivide reality...' Thats the one that that makes the most sense, in
laymans terms, that I have heard yet.





>To answer Dave's question, electron tunneling does occur in a real sense
>(ie, it is not an artifact of your coordinate system).

Thank you, much better argued than I could have, and I knew I was right,
just couldn't explain why anywhere near as well.


>Physics is cool! ;-)
>

Yep, I most certainly agree

>--Adam
>
>acgetchell@*******.edu
>"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
>
>


Thank you. Like I said, you explained it much better than I could have.

Dave
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:43:10 +1000
Adam Getchell writes:
> [1] Matt Visser. _Lorentzian Wormholes, from Einstein to
> Hawking_. American
> Institute of Physics, Woodbury, 1996
>
> [2] Jerry B. Marion, Stephen T. Thornton. _Classical Dynamics of Particles
> and Systems, 3rd edition_. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, San Diego, 1988

Adam, did you recently get some software for easy bibliographic references,
or do you just do those references for the fun of it?

And here's a theoretically possible (but totally implausible)
"teleportation" method. Scan an object to determine its exact chemical
composition (including the location of the atoms to within a few
picometers). Convert the object to energy, using total conversion. Send the
energy and the data to the receiver. Reconvert the energy to matter, using
the data obtained earlier. Obviously, as you can not get 100% efficiency,
you'll have to sacrifice creating a few molecules, but they aren't all
needed, anyway.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 27
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:43:46 -0500
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At 12:52 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:
>At 12:19 3/16/99 -0800, Dave Post wrote:
>> They emasure the site and
the
>>location using incredibly accurate global positioning systems (As it
works
>>today, you can get down to the nearest meter, if you have the
decryption
>>code for the satellites. In 2060, I imagine the degree of accuracy
could
>>be down to the nearest millimeter. Accurate enough for me)
>
>I think you might run into problems with the wavelength of the
>signal from the GPS satellites or the resolution of their timing
>codes if you want to get that precise.

Since current-day seismologists use specially modified civilian GPS
units for measuring plate drift, and are accurate down to the mm-cm
range, I would imagine that unless there's a big change in the specs
for the unencrypted civilian GPS signals, then the same accuracy
should persist to Shadowrun's time.

It is true that several of these "survey" techniques for determining
position data require the receiver unit to remain stationary for a
length of time, this is not a large problem for for measuring a
teleportation target site, as Dave Post describes.

Some specifications for these various "survey" GPS applications can be
found at:

http://www.utexas.edu/depts/grg/gcraft/notes/gps/gps.html


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 28
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:51:25 -0500
AH. The "Transporter" theory from Star Trek.

Robert Watkins wrote:

> Adam Getchell writes:
> > [1] Matt Visser. _Lorentzian Wormholes, from Einstein to
> > Hawking_. American
> > Institute of Physics, Woodbury, 1996
> >
> > [2] Jerry B. Marion, Stephen T. Thornton. _Classical Dynamics of Particles
> > and Systems, 3rd edition_. Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, San Diego, 1988
>
> Adam, did you recently get some software for easy bibliographic references,
> or do you just do those references for the fun of it?
>
> And here's a theoretically possible (but totally implausible)
> "teleportation" method. Scan an object to determine its exact chemical
> composition (including the location of the atoms to within a few
> picometers). Convert the object to energy, using total conversion. Send the
> energy and the data to the receiver. Reconvert the energy to matter, using
> the data obtained earlier. Obviously, as you can not get 100% efficiency,
> you'll have to sacrifice creating a few molecules, but they aren't all
> needed, anyway.
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 29
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:54:47 -0800
At 14:43 3/17/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>And here's a theoretically possible (but totally implausible)
>"teleportation" method. Scan an object to determine its exact chemical
>composition (including the location of the atoms to within a few
>picometers). Convert the object to energy, using total conversion. Send the
>energy and the data to the receiver. Reconvert the energy to matter, using
>the data obtained earlier. Obviously, as you can not get 100% efficiency,
>you'll have to sacrifice creating a few molecules, but they aren't all
>needed, anyway.

Of course, you have three big problems:

1. Making it from the stage of "hey, we invented total conversion" to
"wow, we didn't annihilate life on the planet despite the creation
of a weapon of unprecedented destructive power".

2. Figuring out a way to record the information about 10^27 different
particles, each of which you are fundamentally unable to determine
precise information about

3. Transmitting all that data to your receiver. Can you imagine the
bandwidth required?

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 30
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:01:44 -0500
Max Rible wrote:

> At 14:43 3/17/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
> >And here's a theoretically possible (but totally implausible)
> >"teleportation" method. Scan an object to determine its exact chemical
> >composition (including the location of the atoms to within a few
> >picometers). Convert the object to energy, using total conversion. Send the
> >energy and the data to the receiver. Reconvert the energy to matter, using
> >the data obtained earlier. Obviously, as you can not get 100% efficiency,
> >you'll have to sacrifice creating a few molecules, but they aren't all
> >needed, anyway.
>
> Of course, you have three big problems:
>
> 1. Making it from the stage of "hey, we invented total conversion" to
> "wow, we didn't annihilate life on the planet despite the creation
> of a weapon of unprecedented destructive power".
>
> 2. Figuring out a way to record the information about 10^27 different
> particles, each of which you are fundamentally unable to determine
> precise information about
>
> 3. Transmitting all that data to your receiver. Can you imagine the
> bandwidth required?
>

I believe that is why he said it was implausible, however theoretically possible
it may be. I'm not a physics major, just a lowly English undergrad so I don't know
the answer to that.
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:15:05 +1000
Max Rible writes, in criticism of my (admittedly implausible) idea:
> 1. Making it from the stage of "hey, we invented total conversion" to
> "wow, we didn't annihilate life on the planet despite the creation
> of a weapon of unprecedented destructive power".

Yep. Never figured out how they do that one.

> 2. Figuring out a way to record the information about 10^27 different
> particles, each of which you are fundamentally unable to determine
> precise information about

*pshaw* a) You don't need total precision. Does it really matter if an atom
is 0.1% of it's diameter over to the left? No, of course not. b) Once you
figure out how to do it for one atom, it's a mere question of magnitude for
the rest.

> 3. Transmitting all that data to your receiver. Can you imagine the
> bandwidth required?

Merely trivial details. 10^27 is only about 2^90. If it takes, oh, 10 bytes
to record the nature and position, that's only 10 billion gigabytes. We've
got 2 gigabyte/second transfer rates already, so it'd only take 5 billion
seconds, or about 160 years for one connection. If we rack up a few thousand
such connections, you'd get the transfer done in less than a fortnight. This
is merely an engineering detail.

For what it's worth, the method I described is the exact one supposedly used
in Star Trek. I've always wondered why they bother sending photon torpedoes,
when they can transport them and just leave the beam unfocused.

Hey, can you imagine the sort of accidents that would have gone on during
the development of this technology? "Sir, there was a slight accident at the
receiver... Boston seems to no longer exist."

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 32
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:22:11 -0800
>Adam, did you recently get some software for easy bibliographic references,
>or do you just do those references for the fun of it?

Sorry, I'm in research mode. Academic standards and all.

>And here's a theoretically possible (but totally implausible)
>"teleportation" method. Scan an object to determine its exact chemical
>composition (including the location of the atoms to within a few
>picometers). Convert the object to energy, using total conversion. Send the
>energy and the data to the receiver. Reconvert the energy to matter, using
>the data obtained earlier. Obviously, as you can not get 100% efficiency,
>you'll have to sacrifice creating a few molecules, but they aren't all
>needed, anyway.

Star Trek. Completely ridiculous, and entropy and Heisenberg have something
to say about how much possible information you can obtain on a system,
assuming you have a 100.000000000% efficient scanner. Cancer and other
horrible defects would result from use of such a system. Which .001% of
your 3 billion base pairs of your DNA, at random, don't you want?

>.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 33
From: Joshua Ring strago@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:33:02 -0500
Adam Getchell wrote:

> >Adam, did you recently get some software for easy bibliographic references,
> >or do you just do those references for the fun of it?
>
> Sorry, I'm in research mode. Academic standards and all.
>
> >And here's a theoretically possible (but totally implausible)
> >"teleportation" method. Scan an object to determine its exact chemical
> >composition (including the location of the atoms to within a few
> >picometers). Convert the object to energy, using total conversion. Send the
> >energy and the data to the receiver. Reconvert the energy to matter, using
> >the data obtained earlier. Obviously, as you can not get 100% efficiency,
> >you'll have to sacrifice creating a few molecules, but they aren't all
> >needed, anyway.
>
> Star Trek. Completely ridiculous, and entropy and Heisenberg have something
> to say about how much possible information you can obtain on a system,
> assuming you have a 100.000000000% efficient scanner. Cancer and other
> horrible defects would result from use of such a system. Which .001% of
> your 3 billion base pairs of your DNA, at random, don't you want?
>
> >.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
>
> --Adam
>
> acgetchell@*******.edu
> "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

That's why you got sensors at the other end that make sure that what comes out
is the exact same, and I do mean exact same, as what went in.
Message no. 34
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:33:33 +1100
At 03:15 17/03/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>For what it's worth, the method I described is the exact one supposedly used
>in Star Trek. I've always wondered why they bother sending photon torpedoes,

Only sometimes. No explanation of any Star Trek technology is consistent in all
episodes. :-(

Ignoring all of the physical impossibilities of this teleportation method, let
the engineers solve them ;-), and getting back to the original method- after
the target is (destructively) scanned, why send the energy to the receiver?
After all, a joule is a joule is a joule. Just reconstruct the target from a
local energy / matter source. It's still the same target in every physical
meaning, although the philosophers and priests would have a field day on this
topic.

So, in Shadowrun, what would happen to a magician's magic if he's teleported
using this scheme? A vampire, shape shifter or materialized spirit? If a
projecting magician's body is teleported, could he find it again?





Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 35
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:06:32 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Max Rible hastily scribble thusly...
|1. Making it from the stage of "hey, we invented total conversion" to
| "wow, we didn't annihilate life on the planet despite the creation
| of a weapon of unprecedented destructive power".
|
|2. Figuring out a way to record the information about 10^27 different
| particles, each of which you are fundamentally unable to determine
| precise information about

Ahhhh. But that's why they use Hiesenberg compensators in Star Trek
transporters....

:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 36
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:25:00 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, A Halliwell wrote:

> Well....
> I suppose they got close then...
> The *ORIGINAL* pilot episode, where he opened it for the first time, and
> walked around it in shock, examining it....
>
> It looked like a wierd wave-effect floating in mid air. As he walked round
> it, it flattened into a totally invisible disk....
>
> (If you know what I'm describing...)
>
> Only later on did the special effects people start having fun with flashing
> lights and making it look like a tunnel.

Additionally, they were using an Einstein-Rosen-Pedowski (unsure on
spelling) bridge for their travels. Anyone know if this was something they
created, to gloss over any scientific inaccuracies?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
When someone asks you, "A penny for your thoughts,"
and you put your two cents in, what happens to the other penny?
Message no. 37
From: The Bookworm Thomas.M.Price@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:59:20 -0600 (CST)
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, Max Rible wrote:

> 1. Making it from the stage of "hey, we invented total conversion" to
> "wow, we didn't annihilate life on the planet despite the creation
> of a weapon of unprecedented destructive power".

For reference the enregy levels dealt with in total conversion are roughly
a Megaton per gram of matter converted to use the familar scale we all
know and love from Stratigic Nuclear Weapons. I REALLY dont want to be on
the same planetiod as anyone working on the experimental side of total
conversion at anything above the atomic level! :)

> 3. Transmitting all that data to your receiver. Can you imagine the
> bandwidth required?

"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a VW Bug loaded with magnetic tape"
or the moderm addendum "Or a 747 loaded with CDROMs." :)

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
Message no. 38
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:20:46 -0800
At 15:59 3/17/99 -0600, The Bookworm wrote:
>> 3. Transmitting all that data to your receiver. Can you imagine the
>> bandwidth required?
>
>"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a VW Bug loaded with magnetic tape"
>or the moderm addendum "Or a 747 loaded with CDROMs." :)

But can you compress the data of a digitized object sufficiently well
that it's more efficient to ship the data than it is to ship the object?
You would need to be able to record information about more than one atom
in the space of a single atom for it to be efficient. The technique
might work for simple objects, perhaps. But if Penrose is right about
consciousness being a quantum effect, shipping the contents of your brain
over might be risky. I'm not going to be the first human guinea pig for
one of those transporters, and I wouldn't volunteer a pet cat for the
purpose either-- what if a being came through alive, but with a
radically altered personality or loss of cognitive capabilities?


--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 39
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:27:19 +1000
> Ignoring all of the physical impossibilities of this
> teleportation method, let
> the engineers solve them ;-), and getting back to the original
> method- after
> the target is (destructively) scanned, why send the energy to the
> receiver?
> After all, a joule is a joule is a joule. Just reconstruct the
> target from a
> local energy / matter source. It's still the same target in every physical
> meaning, although the philosophers and priests would have a field
> day on this
> topic.

Because of the amount of energy involved. Conversion of energy to matter
uses the famous E=Mc^2 function. C is on the order of 3x10^8 m/s I think
(it's been a while...), so to reconstruct an 80kg person, you need...
80x(3x10^8)^2, or 80x9x10^16 joules.

As the Bookworm pointed out, it's roughly equivalent to a Megaton warhead
for each gram of the person. If you can generate the equivalent of 80000
Megatons of explosive, feel free.

In practise (gee, I'm talking about practicalities involved in a method I
said upfront was implausible...), you'd use a counterweight. Scan, send the
data, "convert" the two objects, and then recreate with the energy provided
by conversion. You don't really need to convert the counterweight back, but
lets not get into that... besides, you'd run out of counterweights
otherwise.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 40
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:30:07 +1000
Max Rible writes:
> But can you compress the data of a digitized object sufficiently well
> that it's more efficient to ship the data than it is to ship the object?
> You would need to be able to record information about more than one atom
> in the space of a single atom for it to be efficient. The technique
> might work for simple objects, perhaps. But if Penrose is right about
> consciousness being a quantum effect, shipping the contents of your brain
> over might be risky. I'm not going to be the first human guinea pig for
> one of those transporters, and I wouldn't volunteer a pet cat for the
> purpose either-- what if a being came through alive, but with a
> radically altered personality or loss of cognitive capabilities?

*chuckle* Doctor "Bones" McCoy objected to transporters as he felt that the
person who came out the other end was not the same as the person who went
in. Their soul, so to speak, was not transported. Whenever possible, he used
shuttlecraft to move around.

It's a practical impossibility, anyway, for the reasons mentioned in this
discussion. But it IS a theoretically possible form of "teleportation". :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 41
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:53:01 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:54 PM 3/16/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:
>3. Transmitting all that data to your receiver. Can you imagine the
> bandwidth required?


And here, everyone thought the latest Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom
Menace was a big long download.

:)


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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 42
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 22:08:27 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:15 PM 3/17/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>> 2. Figuring out a way to record the information about 10^27
different
>> particles, each of which you are fundamentally unable to
determine
>> precise information about
>
>*pshaw* a) You don't need total precision. Does it really matter if
an atom
>is 0.1% of it's diameter over to the left? No, of course not. b) Once
you
>figure out how to do it for one atom, it's a mere question of
magnitude for
>the rest.

One theory about the mechanism responsible for what we perceive as
"the conscious mind" places the seat of memory and thought not at the
level of neurons and the electro-chemical messages they exchange, but
at a sub-cellular level. This theory holds that the thought process
occurs in sub-cellular structures called micro-tubules, and that the
thought process is a result of quantum mechanical fluctuations in the
atoms that make up the micro-tubule walls.

I haven't heard much about the research into the above theory, but if
thought and memory are the result of a quantum mechanical process,
then total precision becomes of prime importance.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 43
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:29:07 -0800
>Additionally, they were using an Einstein-Rosen-Pedowski (unsure on
>spelling) bridge for their travels. Anyone know if this was something they
>created, to gloss over any scientific inaccuracies?

The Einstein-Rosen-Podolski thought experiment highlights one of the
general inconsistencies between Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity.
General Relativity basically implies no faster than light travel.

The EPR conjecture is as follows: suppose one generates a pair of photons
(say, from matter-antimatter annhilation). Via Quantum mechanics and other
principles, the polarization of the photons is always exactly opposite.
Generally, polarization is in an indeterminate state, but if you measure
one photon's polarization you automatically set the other (previously
indeterminate) photon's state to the opposite. This interaction happens
instantly, in violation of relativity.

Such particles are known as phase-entangled. Quantum teleportation is an
application of this phase-entangled property.

Note this has little if nothing to do with wormholes.

The only known variety of traversible, stable wormhole is of the
Morris-Thorne type. Not that there aren't significant problems with these,
but they appear to be more possible and survivable than the others.

>| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student



--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 44
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:30:28 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Adam Getchell wrote:

> Generally, polarization is in an indeterminate state, but if you measure
> one photon's polarization you automatically set the other (previously
> indeterminate) photon's state to the opposite. This interaction happens
> instantly, in violation of relativity.

Indeed. While this may ultimately have little to no bearing on
the mechanics of teleportation, it could have profound ramifications for
interstellar communication. The catch is that you have to bring one half
of the pair to wherever it is you want to communicate with.

Marc
Message no. 45
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:36:39 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Robert Watkins hastily scribble thusly...
|*chuckle* Doctor "Bones" McCoy objected to transporters as he felt that the
|person who came out the other end was not the same as the person who went
|in. Their soul, so to speak, was not transported. Whenever possible, he used
|shuttlecraft to move around.
|
|It's a practical impossibility, anyway, for the reasons mentioned in this
|discussion. But it IS a theoretically possible form of "teleportation". :)

There was an alternative method used on one of the next Generation episodes
(which has never been shown on BBC... I don't think... because of the IRA
comment)...

It involved punching a conduit through subspace and jumping through to the
destination... But resulted in DNA scrambling if used too much.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 46
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:59:44 +1100
At 11:30 17/03/99 -0500, Marc Renouf wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Adam Getchell wrote:
>> Generally, polarization is in an indeterminate state, but if you measure
>> one photon's polarization you automatically set the other (previously
>> indeterminate) photon's state to the opposite. This interaction happens
>> instantly, in violation of relativity.
>
> Indeed. While this may ultimately have little to no bearing on
>the mechanics of teleportation, it could have profound ramifications for
>interstellar communication. The catch is that you have to bring one half
>of the pair to wherever it is you want to communicate with.

Do you mean FTL comms? Quantum entanglement won't give you this since, unless
you already know the message, all you observe are random fluctuations. It is,
however, possibly a great tool for encryption.





Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 47
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 02:15:30 +1100
At 10:08 17/03/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>One theory about the mechanism responsible for what we perceive as
>"the conscious mind" places the seat of memory and thought not at the
>level of neurons and the electro-chemical messages they exchange, but
>at a sub-cellular level. This theory holds that the thought process
>occurs in sub-cellular structures called micro-tubules, and that the
>thought process is a result of quantum mechanical fluctuations in the
>atoms that make up the micro-tubule walls.

The theories I have read discuss consciousness, only, as resulting from these
micro-tubule quantum fluctuations. They still described memory and the thought
processes as occurring at the neuron network level. If this is true (and
despite the weight of Penrose's opinion, the quantum mystics do not appear to
have convinced all that many people) then teleportation without quantum
precision is still a possibility (as much as it can be anyhow). The teleported
subject has all the memories and thought patterns of the original. The
consciousness-causing quantum fluctuations recommence different to
pre-teleportation but it's no big deal since these fluctuations are different
from moment to moment in the non-teleported subject anyway.





Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 48
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:14:15 -0800
>Do you mean FTL comms? Quantum entanglement won't give you this since, unless
>you already know the message, all you observe are random fluctuations. It is,
>however, possibly a great tool for encryption.

Quantum cryptography has already been done. Basically, the signal is sent
via 1/10 amplitude photon "flashes" along a light pipe using a birefringent
crystal to separate polarization. The receiver of the signal can tell by
the number of determinate state photons and multiplying by 4 how many bits
of the signal have been read/intercepted. The more significant part of the
technique is the use of a mathematical formula that can distill from the
amount of known, un-intercepted bits, a key that is overwhelmingly likely
to have never been read. This key is used in a one-time-pad arrangement to
create an unbreakable, uninterceptable, code.

The details are in a Scientific American article, October of 1993 if I
remember correctly. The last time this came up on the previous list, it was
a *huge* thread.

>Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant


--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 49
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:53:29 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Adam Getchell wrote:

> The details are in a Scientific American article, October of 1993 if I
> remember correctly. The last time this came up on the previous list, it was
> a *huge* thread.

Ye gads, not *this* topic again... Next people will be going on
about intercepting fiber-optic communications and whatnot.

Marc
Message no. 50
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:16:45 +1000
Chris Maxfield writes:
> Do you mean FTL comms? Quantum entanglement won't give you this
> since, unless
> you already know the message, all you observe are random
> fluctuations. It is,
> however, possibly a great tool for encryption.

Modulate the message... :)

Set up the comms system so that the pairs change state at whatever rate you
want (call it 100,000 times a second, for now). Any deviation from that
change rate is a modulation, and that's where the real message is.

Essentially the same technique used by electromagnetic communications
(radio, TV, etc): modulate the carrier wave to send the signal.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 51
From: Adam Getchell acgetchell@*******.edu
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:25:05 -0800
>Modulate the message... :)
>
>Set up the comms system so that the pairs change state at whatever rate you
>want (call it 100,000 times a second, for now). Any deviation from that
>change rate is a modulation, and that's where the real message is.

Nice idea.

Unfortunately, one cannot do this. Indeterminacy in measurement is an
indefinite state: once one makes the measurement, the state is determinate
(within the bounds of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) and the photons
are no longer phase-entangled.

So far, no one has come up with a way to make this an FTL communicator.
Physicists just feel a little queasy about instantaneous effects, but
there's no outrageous causality violations (which would occur with true FTL
communication).

>Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com


--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 52
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:59:06 +1000
> Unfortunately, one cannot do this. Indeterminacy in measurement is an
> indefinite state: once one makes the measurement, the state is determinate
> (within the bounds of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) and the photons
> are no longer phase-entangled.

Ah... That leaves me to beg the question: if measuring the particles make
them no longer phase-entangled... how do the physicists know that the change
was instantaneous? I mean, it could have happened prior to the measurement
(and thus prior to the change being applied to the first particle)?

On second thoughts, I'm not sure I want an answer... quantum effects always
make me feel dizzy...

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 53
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Technological Teleportation/Energy Sources
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:07:28 EST
In a message dated 3/19/99 1:00:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.com writes:

> On second thoughts, I'm not sure I want an answer... quantum effects always
> make me feel dizzy...
>

Quantum Physics is MAGIC.

However, the Quantum Physicists are a notoriulsy skeptical lot, and refuse to
accept that simple answer. <g>

Methinks I should buy some more stock in Tylenol and related companies.
hehehe.

Sean
GM Pax

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