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Message no. 1
From: Roger J. An ricker@********.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:08:08 -0400 (EDT)
There is a detection spell, analze device. If a machine landed on earth
from outer space, would I be able to analyze it?

Anyhow, with regards to the fine degree of control exerted, one probably
can't have a Control Device spell. If you can't make a spell that
physically manipulates a person's internal organs, you probably can't make
a spell that would do the same to some device you don't really even know,
under current rules. However, this does sound like it would be an
interesting area of magic worth exploring, as it would be the basis for
technomancy, which is practically not allowed under SRIII. But maybe
technomagic can be explained in terms of the Deep Resonance, and in turn
Otaku can be justified by magic. In this case, new rules, or at least
updated ones, must be applied to the technomancer. I think rather than
Mana vs. Physical, technomagic would be deterministic vs. chaotic, or, low
entroy vs. high entropy where control can be exerted over the highly
chaotic (complicated electronics, for example) just as mana spells control
highly abstruse mechanisms (emotions, for example). Since complicated
electronics and mana are somewhat similar, the techno-mage would be able
to manipulate both. However, physcal spells, ones that deal with raw
physics and tele-mechanics, would be too foreign to the technoshaman.

What do you all think?

Lates,

Roger J. An
Message no. 2
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:31:41 -0700
On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:08:08 Roger J. An wrote:

<Snip>

I think rather than
>Mana vs. Physical, technomagic would be deterministic vs. chaotic, or, low
>entroy vs. high entropy where control can be exerted over the highly
>chaotic (complicated electronics, for example) just as mana spells control
>highly abstruse mechanisms (emotions, for example). Since complicated
>electronics and mana are somewhat similar, the techno-mage would be able
>to manipulate both. However, physcal spells, ones that deal with raw
>physics and tele-mechanics, would be too foreign to the technoshaman.

>What do you all think?

I personally don't like the idea of technoshamans. In my opinion, it goes against the
philosophy that technology and magic don't mix well. Otakus are not necessarily magical
and I don't see any similiarities between complicated electronics and mana. But then
again, I don't allow cybermancy either, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

>Lates,

>Roger J. An

Justin


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Message no. 3
From: Roger J. An ricker@********.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:47:01 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Kelson wrote:

> I personally don't like the idea of technoshamans. In my opinion, it goes
> against the philosophy that technology and magic don't mix well. Otakus
> are not necessarily magical and I don't see any similiarities between
> complicated electronics and mana. But then again, I don't allow cybermancy
> either, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

I will. I'm trying to find a way to make technoshamans viable in my game
so I'm already allowing it. People allow the most ridiculous things in
their games (like that magic funball) but it's never wrong because when it
all comes down to it, you can't be official all the time.

Nonetheless, the idea of technoshamans are intriguing. Machines continue
to become more and more complex. Technowizards really do represent the
epitomy of cyberpunk and magical fantasy doesn't it?

Why isn't there more of place for it in Shadowrun?

Lates,

Roger J. An
Message no. 4
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:27:17 -0500
> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Kelson wrote:
>
> > I personally don't like the idea of technoshamans. In my opinion, it
> goes
> > against the philosophy that technology and magic don't mix well. Otakus
> > are not necessarily magical and I don't see any similiarities between
> > complicated electronics and mana. But then again, I don't allow
> cybermancy
> > either, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.
>
> I will. I'm trying to find a way to make technoshamans viable in my game
> so I'm already allowing it. People allow the most ridiculous things in
> their games (like that magic funball) but it's never wrong because when it
> all comes down to it, you can't be official all the time.
>
> Nonetheless, the idea of technoshamans are intriguing. Machines continue
> to become more and more complex. Technowizards really do represent the
> epitomy of cyberpunk and magical fantasy doesn't it?
>
> Why isn't there more of place for it in Shadowrun?
>
Because SR is based on the concept of magic and science never meeting. The
magic system is "realistic" (to use someone else's' words from an earlier
post) which seems sort of weird considering that magic, by its very
definition, defies realism. But, whatever. It's too late to argue that
point.

Magic and tech meet in very limited ways in SR. The only two examples I can
think of are otaku (which technically aren't magical but the principles they
operate on do defy realism) and cybermancy. Technoshamanism sounds cool, but
limits should be applied. Any point where tech meets magic needs to be
carefully thought out. There's a lot of room for abuse there.
Message no. 5
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:09:24 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/99 3:34:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, markf@******.com
writes:

> Magic and tech meet in very limited ways in SR. The only two examples I can
> think of are otaku (which technically aren't magical but the principles
they
> operate on do defy realism) and cybermancy.


I would actually say that those two examples aren't really magic and tech
meeting at all. They are working in close proximity in one case, but not
exactly interacting.

Here's the way I see it:

Cybermancy: Cyberware crammed into a human body to the point of death from
essence loss. The cybermantic rituals create a kind of "negative essence" or
black-hole soul. This binds and grounds itself to the cyberzombie, and
keeps him/her essentially alive. But, the magic never interacts with the
cyberware or "tech". It's the process of creating a soul for a dying human
being. For instance, you couldn't exact cast cybermantic rituals on a body
made just out of cyberlimbs and parts, that was never once a man.

Otaku: Otaku are human beings with their brains reprogrammed by an AI. No
magic at all involved. It always seemed to me like a heightening of a
human's natural holographic bicomputer analog and a sort of induced autism.





-Twist
Message no. 6
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:30:27 -0500
> In a message dated 8/10/99 3:34:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> markf@******.com
> writes:
>
> > Magic and tech meet in very limited ways in SR. The only two examples I
> can
> > think of are otaku (which technically aren't magical but the principles
>
> they
> > operate on do defy realism) and cybermancy.
>
>
> I would actually say that those two examples aren't really magic and tech
> meeting at all. They are working in close proximity in one case, but not
> exactly interacting.
>
> Here's the way I see it:
>
> Cybermancy: Cyberware crammed into a human body to the point of death
> from
> essence loss. The cybermantic rituals create a kind of "negative essence"
> or
> black-hole soul. This binds and grounds itself to the cyberzombie, and
> keeps him/her essentially alive. But, the magic never interacts with the
> cyberware or "tech". It's the process of creating a soul for a dying
> human
> being. For instance, you couldn't exact cast cybermantic rituals on a
> body
> made just out of cyberlimbs and parts, that was never once a man.
>
Well, it never really interacts, but what they're describing stomps several
laws of reality into the ground, hence the 'magic' moniker.

> Otaku: Otaku are human beings with their brains reprogrammed by an AI.
> No
> magic at all involved. It always seemed to me like a heightening of a
> human's natural holographic bicomputer analog and a sort of induced
> autism.
>
Uh. "Natural holographic biocomputer?" "Induced autism?". Sounds like
magic
to me.



> -Twist
Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:00:43 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/1999 12:47:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ricker@********.com writes:

> Nonetheless, the idea of technoshamans are intriguing. Machines continue
> to become more and more complex. Technowizards really do represent the
> epitomy of cyberpunk and magical fantasy doesn't it?
>
> Why isn't there more of place for it in Shadowrun?
>
> Lates,
>
> Roger J. An
>
There is Roger, there is. And, I can imagine that in *some* (NOT all) future
products, you are probably going to be very happy.

The big thing, IMO, to remember is that the GM (you in this case, Justin in
the other for this example) make the final say/call in what is/not allowed
into the game campaign. As long as everyone is doing what they like to do,
cool enough.

-K
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:56:31 EDT
In a message dated 8/10/1999 12:08:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ricker@********.com writes:

> There is a detection spell, analze device. If a machine landed on earth
> from outer space, would I be able to analyze it?

As long as it is on earth and not still in space (and hence subject to all
sorts of nasty problems), yes; you should be able to use the spell upon it.
Target Number might be a 12 or better though.

> Anyhow, with regards to the fine degree of control exerted, one probably
> can't have a Control Device spell. If you can't make a spell that
> physically manipulates a person's internal organs, you probably can't make
> a spell that would do the same to some device you don't really even know,
> under current rules. However, this does sound like it would be an
> interesting area of magic worth exploring, as it would be the basis for
> technomancy, which is practically not allowed under SRIII. But maybe
> technomagic can be explained in terms of the Deep Resonance, and in turn
> Otaku can be justified by magic. In this case, new rules, or at least
> updated ones, must be applied to the technomancer. I think rather than
> Mana vs. Physical, technomagic would be deterministic vs. chaotic, or, low
> entroy vs. high entropy where control can be exerted over the highly
> chaotic (complicated electronics, for example) just as mana spells control
> highly abstruse mechanisms (emotions, for example). Since complicated
> electronics and mana are somewhat similar, the techno-mage would be able
> to manipulate both. However, physcal spells, ones that deal with raw
> physics and tele-mechanics, would be too foreign to the technoshaman.
> What do you all think?

I'm gonna be nice.

1) You *could* have a spell designed that would be able to
interface/interact with a machine. In *theory* you could have a spell that
would function much like a Datajack would between a user and a machine
equipped with datajack input (I'm keeping it simple). Optionally, you
*could* have a spell that would perform the functions as Smartlink Cyberware
if you had a gun/weapon that was smartlink capable (you should see our
versions of Smartlink Tech and Bows). It isn't impossible, but it does
require a considerable amount of GM interaction and overwatch in order to
ensure that such magic didn't *become* abusable.

2) It would NOT be good to explain technomancy with regards to the
Resonance. I can only say "call it gut reaction", but it wouldn't work well.
At least, not in any of the manners or fashions that I personally have seen
at least. If you, or anyone else out there, have better options ... please,
do tell :-)

-K
Message no. 9
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:27:35 CST
>From: Twist0059@***.com
>Cybermancy: Cyberware crammed into a human body to the point of death from
>essence loss. The cybermantic rituals create a kind of "negative essence"
>or
>black-hole soul. This binds and grounds itself to the cyberzombie, and
>keeps him/her essentially alive. But, the magic never interacts with the
>cyberware or "tech". It's the process of creating a soul for a dying human
>being. For instance, you couldn't exact cast cybermantic rituals on a body
>made just out of cyberlimbs and parts, that was never once a man.


I see it differently (if I misunderstood your reasoning I'm apologizing in
advance). I see cybermancy as more or less an "astral leash" for the soul
after you get so much cyber that the soul no longer recognizes the body and
decides to leave. I belive that the whole idea of astral templates was
mentioned in Cybertechnology, but most of my SR books are in storage so I
have to rely on my memory.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 10
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:41:32 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/99 12:29:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
knight_errant30@*******.com writes:

> >From: Twist0059@***.com
> >Cybermancy: Cyberware crammed into a human body to the point of death
from
> >essence loss. The cybermantic rituals create a kind of "negative
essence"
> >or
> >black-hole soul. This binds and grounds itself to the cyberzombie, and
> >keeps him/her essentially alive. But, the magic never interacts with the
> >cyberware or "tech". It's the process of creating a soul for a dying
human
> >being. For instance, you couldn't exact cast cybermantic rituals on a
body
> >made just out of cyberlimbs and parts, that was never once a man.
>
>
> I see it differently (if I misunderstood your reasoning I'm apologizing in
> advance). I see cybermancy as more or less an "astral leash" for the soul

> after you get so much cyber that the soul no longer recognizes the body
and
> decides to leave. I belive that the whole idea of astral templates was
> mentioned in Cybertechnology, but most of my SR books are in storage so I
> have to rely on my memory.


Well, CT says that cybermancy binds the soul to the body when it wants to
escape, but I always saw Essence as the measure of the person's soul. I
suppose though Essence could be the bridge that links body and soul and once
enough gets eaten away the soul escapes and leaves for greener pastures.
Still, that would mean what I said was correct, and magic in cybermancy never
"interfaces" or works with technology. It works in proximity of it, yes, and
it may bind the soul to the heap of chrome, but that's not the same as tech
and magic working together like you describe.





-Twist
Message no. 11
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:47:34 -0700
On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:41:32 Twist0059 wrote:

>Well, CT says that cybermancy binds the soul to the body when it wants to
>escape, but I always saw Essence as the measure of the person's soul. I
>suppose though Essence could be the bridge that links body and soul and once
>enough gets eaten away the soul escapes and leaves for greener pastures.
>Still, that would mean what I said was correct, and magic in cybermancy never
>"interfaces" or works with technology. It works in proximity of it, yes,
and
>it may bind the soul to the heap of chrome, but that's not the same as tech
>and magic working together like you describe.

Here I go poking my nose back into the conversation. ;)

I see cyberware destroying part of a person's soul (Essence). When too much of your soul
has been destroyed, it tries to leave (I think we're in agreement on this). :)

To me, using magic to "fix" this "problem" goes against the grain
(tech and magic not mixing well). After all, if you have so much tech in you that your
soul wants to leave, how would magic be of any help? What's it binding your soul to to
keep it there? The same thing that made the soul want to depart in the first place?

Technology and magic both have their place and are very useful. However, I take the
philosophy of tech and magic not mixing well fairly seriously (as serious as you can in a
game) and keep it in mind when running my campaigns.

Instead of cybermancy, I encourage cyber junkies to get more cyberware by upgrading their
current ware and/or getting rid of some of it and filling the "essence gap" with
something more useful to them. This still allows them to be very flexible with there ware
without entering the tech/magic crossover realm. And there is always bioware. ;)

Then again, I don't run epic campaigns that involve big nasty creatures and people trying
to fit 8 - 10 points of cyberware into their bodies either. This pretty much eliminates
the need for cybermancy or the like on its own.

Magic and technology are both strong tools. Having both of them on your side can really
make you powerful. In order to maintain some semblence of game balace (an overused term,
I admit), it's best not to allow someone to have the best of both worlds.

All in my opinion, of course. :) YMMV.

>-Twist

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:07:52 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/1999 1:49:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
kelson13@*******.com writes:

> >Well, CT says that cybermancy binds the soul to the body when it wants to
> >escape, but I always saw Essence as the measure of the person's soul. I
> >suppose though Essence could be the bridge that links body and soul and
> once
> >enough gets eaten away the soul escapes and leaves for greener pastures.
> >Still, that would mean what I said was correct, and magic in cybermancy
> never
> >"interfaces" or works with technology. It works in proximity of it,
yes,
> and
> >it may bind the soul to the heap of chrome, but that's not the same as
tech
>
> >and magic working together like you describe.
>
> Here I go poking my nose back into the conversation. ;)
>
> I see cyberware destroying part of a person's soul (Essence). When too
much
> of your soul has been destroyed, it tries to leave (I think we're in
> agreement on this). :)

And mercifully, this is going to shot to hell in M&M ....

> To me, using magic to "fix" this "problem" goes against the
grain (tech
and
> magic not mixing well). After all, if you have so much tech in you that
your
> soul wants to leave, how would magic be of any help? What's it binding
your
> soul to to keep it there? The same thing that made the soul want to depart
> in the first place?

Your own point here proves that this has *nothing* to do with ones' Soul.
Additionally, it isn't "Fixing" anything, its' "tricking" something...

> Technology and magic both have their place and are very useful. However,
I
> take the philosophy of tech and magic not mixing well fairly seriously (as
> serious as you can in a game) and keep it in mind when running my campaigns.
> Instead of cybermancy, I encourage cyber junkies to get more cyberware by
> upgrading their current ware and/or getting rid of some of it and filling
the
> "essence gap" with something more useful to them. This still allows them
to
> be very flexible with there ware without entering the tech/magic crossover
> realm. And there is always bioware. ;)

Very good alternative suggestions to ones' player base. Very nice. The
reverse trick is also true. "Breadboarding" stuff, and I don't mean for
implantation. But having Gear that does what cyber does is often a suitable
alternative.

> Then again, I don't run epic campaigns that involve big nasty creatures
and
> people trying to fit 8 - 10 points of cyberware into their bodies either.
> This pretty much eliminates the need for cybermancy or the like on its own.

We'll see soon enough...

> Magic and technology are both strong tools. Having both of them on your
> side can really make you powerful. In order to maintain some semblence of
> game balace (an overused term, I admit), it's best not to allow someone to
> have the best of both worlds.
>
> All in my opinion, of course. :) YMMV.


Of course :)

-K
Message no. 13
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Technoshamans (Not Otaku)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 08:23:59 -0400
At 11.56 08-11-99 EDT, you wrote:
>1) You *could* have a spell designed that would be able to
>interface/interact with a machine. In *theory* you could have a spell that

It would probably be more than just a single spell. I suspect that you
have to undergo a Trial of some sort.

>would function much like a Datajack would between a user and a machine
>equipped with datajack input (I'm keeping it simple). Optionally, you

What about the light-based datajack in Cybertech? You'd have to adjust
the output for visable light, and then a simple spell to understand it.

>if you had a gun/weapon that was smartlink capable (you should see our
>versions of Smartlink Tech and Bows). It isn't impossible, but it does

MMmmmmm......
Bows.........
Interesting. What diferences are there from a standard Smartlink?


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"'Impossible' is a term used by those of little imagination or intelligence
to describe that which they can not understand."

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