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Message no. 1
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:21:27 +0100
Wrong!!!!
THWAP!!
The teflon coated or KTW rounds are armour peircing, as the
teflon lubricates the rounds passage...
Sure, the round is less likely to expand or fragment ,so tissue
trauma is reduced,but it'll cut a kevlar vest like butter at
close range.

What SR needs is varying levels of penetration for weapons,as AP
rounds all have slightly different capabilitys.
Going from The lesser penetrators (9mm FMJ ) to the big boys (12
guage magnum tungsten carbide sadoted slug)

Question:
has anyone got the actual calibres of the rounds that guns in
SR actually use?

CHOPPER
Eagle stones to the lot of yeh!
Message no. 2
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 18:34:42 +0100
In response to Chopper ...

As far as I know, FASA never came up with calibres for the weapons in
their books ( officially, that is ) but I may be wrong. What you said about
having varying qualities of AP rounds makes sense but the last time my group
included rules for that, it got a bit heavy on the book-keeping side of
things; still if anyone is prepared to put up with it, it does add more
dimension to gameplay.

You and Stainless Steel Rat are both right: the cop-killer round so
much propagated by the media is to certain extents a myth. There does exist
a pistol round ( can't remember what it's called now ) that can penetrate
most kevlar armour available to the police at the moment but modified kevlar
material, including increasing basic thickness, can stop the round.

There is also a new rifle round produced by a South African arms and
munitions company that is claimed to be able to penetrate *any* personal
armour in the world to date. Again, I can't recall the name of the round in
question nor the company which produces the bullet ( I'll check and get back
to all of you ), but armed forces around the world are, apparently, taking
this new development *very* seriously ( there's also talk of the legality of
the new bullet's use on the battlefield but those reports have not as yet
been substantiated ) so this is no hoax. Testing continues and I last heard
from a friend of mine in the army that research into discovering a way to
neutralise the new bullet has already begun.

Thing is in SR, armour could be said to have come that far as well
so that they could in effect stop most kinds of rounds ( look at the new
armour on offer in FoF ); still, Chopper's right in that an assorted type of
AP rounds would lend a little something more to the game.
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:50:40 -0400
>>>>> "S" == S K Khoo <S.K.Khoo@*********.ac.uk> writes:

S> You and Stainless Steel Rat are both right: the cop-killer round
S> so much propagated by the media is to certain extents a myth. There
S> does exist a pistol round ( can't remember what it's called now ) that
S> can penetrate most kevlar armour available to the police at the moment
S> but modified kevlar material, including increasing basic thickness, can
S> stop the round.

There's another kind of ballistic mesh out there now, but I can't remember
what it is. Regardless, the current generation of Type IIIA body armors
(ie, the stuff used by law enforcement right now) will stop just about
every pistol caliber round out there today.

S> There is also a new rifle round produced by a South African arms
S> and munitions company that is claimed to be able to penetrate *any*
S> personal armour in the world to date.

Ah, the age-old war. It's easier to make a weapon that can penetrate
existing defenses than it is to come up with a defense against it.
Shadowrun is kinda backwards as armor technology has advanced further than
weapons technology.

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
==I have one prejudice, and that is against stupidity. Use your mind, think!==
== --Zoner <megazone@***.wpi.edu> ==
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Message no. 4
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 17:22:04 -0500
Question.

I have a .177 air rifle.

Now, what happens if instead of lead rounds, I put something else in there.

Say, oh, I dunno -- something explosive. Yes, I realize this is not going to
be very effective, but the idea would be a cheap, easy, disposable weapon witho
no powder traces and -does not have to be registered-.

Or just use field rounds and make the tips out of tugsten carbide rather than
lead. =)
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 19:33:17 -0400
>>>>> "J" == J W Thomas <cm5323@***.AC.UK> writes:

J> The teflon coated or KTW rounds are armour peircing, as the
J> teflon lubricates the rounds passage...

Sources, please. Mine are Boston Police officers who deal with this kind of
stuff every day. They are considered a semi-armor piercing round because
they penetrate solids like walls and cars, but they're less effective
against Kevlar 129 and Spectra fabrics.

J> Sure, the round is less likely to expand or fragment ,so tissue trauma
J> is reduced,but it'll cut a kevlar vest like butter at close range.

Wrong. Type IIIA armor will stop penetration of just about every pistol
caliber round out there up to .44 Magnum.

J> What SR needs is varying levels of penetration for weapons,as AP rounds
J> all have slightly different capabilitys.

And the math and bookkeeping would be horrendous.

J> Going from The lesser penetrators (9mm FMJ) to the big boys (12 guage
J> magnum tungsten carbide sadoted slug)

No, .450 Nitro Express :).

J> Question:
J> has anyone got the actual calibres of the rounds that guns in
J> SR actually use?

Irrelevant, given Shadowrun's abstraction of combat. Calibers are small,
big, bigger, even bigger, really big, huge, and goddess! that's a big
round. As far as Shadowrun is concerned there is very little difference
between rounds in similar calibers (ie, .45 ACP and 9mm NATO).

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== No Zooanoids were injured in the making of this message. ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\
Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 22:23:26 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Gian-Paolo> I have a .177 air rifle.

Pretty common pellet guns; you can get 'em in sporting goods shops along
with BB guns.

Gian-Paolo> Now, what happens if instead of lead rounds, I put something
Gian-Paolo> else in there.

Not much :).

Gian-Paolo> Say, oh, I dunno -- something explosive. Yes, I realize this
Gian-Paolo> is not going to be very effective, but the idea would be a
Gian-Paolo> cheap, easy, disposable weapon witho no powder traces

You'd be better off with a watergun and your favorite chemicals in an
aqueus solution of DMSO.

Gian-Paolo> and -does not have to be registered-.

Check local laws; air guns are illegal in Michigan, Japan and Belgium, and
you need an FFL in New Jersy to ship or sell them.

Gian-Paolo> Or just use field rounds and make the tips out of tugsten
Gian-Paolo> carbide rather than lead. =)

Most rifles today have a muzzle velocity of 1000 (low noise subsonic
rounds) to 2000 feet per second, with a maximum ballistic range of over a
mile; most air rifles top off at 700 feet per second and drop off at 1000
feet. Don't be fooled, the energy of a projectile moving at 1000 fps is
orders of magnitude higher than one moving at 700 fps. They'd hurt an
unarmored target, but even the thinnest ballistic mesh is going to stop
'em.

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== Our hero regains conciousness at the feet of a sarcastic alien. ==
== --Spaceman Spiff ==
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Message no. 7
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 17:14:58 -0700
On Mon, 23 May 1994, J.W.Thomas wrote:

> Wrong!!!!
> THWAP!!
> The teflon coated or KTW rounds are armour peircing, as the
> teflon lubricates the rounds passage...
> Sure, the round is less likely to expand or fragment ,so tissue
> trauma is reduced,but it'll cut a kevlar vest like butter at
> close range.

I thought so. I read up on the subject and it's no wonder that
the NRA fought to get the Teflon bullets off the market. They do work.

> Question:
> has anyone got the actual calibres of the rounds that guns in
> SR actually use?

I talked about this on GEnie when the SRI rules were new and was
told that they didn't want to complicate the issue by worrying about
calibers and such. So, bluntly, no.

> CHOPPER
> Eagle stones to the lot of yeh!
>
Ivy K
Message no. 8
From: Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:03:57 -0700
On Mon, 23 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Question.
>
> I have a .177 air rifle.
>
> Now, what happens if instead of lead rounds, I put something else in there.
>
> Say, oh, I dunno -- something explosive. Yes, I realize this is not going to
> be very effective, but the idea would be a cheap, easy, disposable weapon witho
> no powder traces and -does not have to be registered-.
>
I don't think this would do much...
> Or just use field rounds and make the tips out of tugsten carbide rather than
> lead. =)
>
Ah...now THIS could be nasty, although I doubt you ge enough velocity out
of your air rifle to really make use of what now is a potentially armor
piercing round.
Maybe beef up the case a bit, some bottleneck cartridge, maybe take a
.223 and neck down to .177...heck why not just leave the .223.
Tungsten carbide tip...I think something like this may be commercially
available, altough I'm probably wrong...In any case, an armor piercing
round without much expansion...

Why not try duplex rounds...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany
Message no. 9
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 07:16:55 -0500
The best ammunition I have are field rounds, which just put a point on an
otherwise flat lead shell.

I think the -good- air rifles can get going pretty fast. I have seen my rifle
kill a rabbit at upwards of 800 meters.
Message no. 10
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:48:28 +0100
In reply to Stainless Steel Rat ...

> There's another kind of ballistic mesh out there now, but I can't remember
> what it is. Regardless, the current generation of Type IIIA body armors
> (ie, the stuff used by law enforcement right now) will stop just about
> every pistol caliber round out there today.

How about SMG and asault rifle rounds ? Friend of mine in the Royal
Marines didn't care much for the Type IIIA ( it's called something else in
this country ); however, the SAS does use a variant of it modified by ceramic
plates in vital areas.

> Ah, the age-old war. It's easier to make a weapon that can penetrate
> existing defenses than it is to come up with a defense against it.
> Shadowrun is kinda backwards as armor technology has advanced further than
> weapons technology.

Talk about role reversal. Who knows ? Perhaps the day will come
when weapon technology will yield the lead to armour tech in this world ? :)
Message no. 11
From: "I.M. Legion" <legion@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 08:16:44 -0600
CHOPPER writes:
>
> What SR needs is varying levels of penetration for weapons,as AP
> rounds all have slightly different capabilitys.
> Going from The lesser penetrators (9mm FMJ ) to the big boys (12
> guage magnum tungsten carbide sadoted slug)

SR as a game does not need to put all of this information into the
firearm combat system. As a group, you may need this and can make
whatever rules you feel necessary. We have defined all the different
weapons' calibers by the size of the gun (hold-out, heavy, etc...).
The DLoH has said several times that the purpose of the game is role-
playing in a somewhat cinematic setting. For game purposes, there is
no need for this type of information. FASA has already sated our
appetite for different ammo types with the different size weapons.
Want a better damaging weapon? Get a better/bigger one.

If you want that much detail, bring in the combat system from CP2020.

--
Legion
Students for War & Oppression
@@@@ @ @ @@@@ Counter productive, highly destructive!
@ @ @@ @ @ @ ---
@@@@ @ @@ @ @ @ Celebrating the occurrences of War &
@ @ @@ @ @ @ Oppression since the dawn of time
@@@@ @@@@ @@@@ -- Even the planets were born in turmoil... --
Message no. 12
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 15:14:46 +0100
On Tue, 24 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> I think the -good- air rifles can get going pretty fast. I have seen my rifle
> kill a rabbit at upwards of 800 meters.

Are you sure, G-P ? I've not seen mine do spit to a tin can at more
than a hundred - hey, what's the model ? I might try and get hold of it
here in England.
Message no. 13
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:45:46 +0100
> On Tue, 24 May 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:
>
> > I think the -good- air rifles can get going pretty fast. I have seen my
rifle
> > kill a rabbit at upwards of 800 meters.
>
> Are you sure, G-P ? I've not seen mine do spit to a tin can at more
> than a hundred - hey, what's the model ? I might try and get hold of it
> here in England.

It's unlikely that you'll be able to legally buy it if it's a pretty good one.
There's a 12lb/ft or something like that limit on air weapons. That's why when
I think Gamo developed a pellet that took the effective power way over there
was an outcry.
Well sort of.
Incidentally, a small bit of English law here...If you go into a shop which
sells airguns to get the power of your own airgun tested and it is found to be
over the legal limit, then they are not allowed by law to give it back to you.
Beware.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|| ||
|| Micah Levy ||
|| Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
|| ||
|| http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/malevy.html ||
|| M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk ||
|| GCS d--@ -p+ c++ l(!) u++ e+ m- s n+ h* f g+(-) w t+ r++ y? ||
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Message no. 14
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 14:02:27 -0500
It is a modified *heh* Daisy .177 PowerLine something-or-other.
Message no. 15
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:56:45 -0400
>>>>> "S" == S K Khoo <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK> writes:

S> How about SMG and asault rifle rounds?

SMGs by definition (with a small number of exceptions) fire pistol
ammunition. Type IIIA won't stop rifle rounds.

S> Friend of mine in the Royal Marines didn't care much for the Type IIIA
S> (it's called something else in this country);

Type IIIA is "civilian" armor used by law enforcement. Military armor is
much thicker and heavier.

S> however, the SAS does use a variant of it modified by ceramic plates in
S> vital areas.

Of course. The SAS uses quite a few neat things :).

>> Ah, the age-old war. It's easier to make a weapon that can penetrate
>> existing defenses than it is to come up with a defense against it.
>> Shadowrun is kinda backwards as armor technology has advanced further
>> than weapons technology.

S> Talk about role reversal. Who knows ? Perhaps the day will
S> come when weapon technology will yield the lead to armour tech in this
S> world ? :)

Dunnow if it will ever happen. History has shown that weapons technology
always advances faster than defense technology. At the rate we're going I
don't want to see what 2025 fields, let along 2050 :).

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== Drop a chicken! --Xuxa ==
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Message no. 16
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 17:59:19 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Gian-Paolo> I think the -good- air rifles can get going pretty fast. I
Gian-Paolo> have seen my rifle kill a rabbit at upwards of 800 meters.

Don't you mean 800 /feet/? 800 meters is just this much short of a
kilometer, and I /really/ doubt you hit a moving 2-foot long target at that
range with an air rifle. You'd have a hard time hitting a stationary target
at that range.

"I used to bag wamp rats in my old T-16 back home. They're not much bigger
than two meters." :)

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== Democracy is four wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. ==
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Message no. 17
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 21:24:18 -0500
800 meters. Then again I was shooting at a motionless target in near-perfect
conditions from bench rest supported, and I had a very, very, very nice scope.

=)

I also managed to get really lucky and hit it in a "good" spot.
Message no. 18
From: "S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 14:35:41 +0100
> It is a modified *heh* Daisy .177 PowerLine something-or-other.

Thanks. I'll check it out. :)
Message no. 19
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teflon
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 09:54:01 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Gian-Paolo> I also managed to get really lucky and hit it in a "good" spot.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I detect quite a bit of emphasis here :).

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== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== An it harm none, 'do what thou wilt' shall be the whole of the Law. ==
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Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Teflon, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!