Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	the Age of Aquarius
Date:	Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:49:12 EDT

Message no. 1 Okay folks, it's been more than a few days since I've been my old self, but
the thoughts are running now, and I'm slowly going through Mike's copy of
T:SH. A LOT of thoughts are going through my mind, and I have a lot of ideas
that I am working on for "Aquarian Games".

First of all, some category directed questions? Does anyone here believe it's
possible to build a "Swim Suit" that is a modification of cybertechnology
limbs and bioware-oriented coverings/musculature. My reason for asking this
is many-fold.

1) Consider if you will, for those who will know what I refer to, the
"Aliens" from the movie "Abyss". Consider if you will the "wings
and tail" as
if it were a "diving suit" contrived of mechanically-oriented controls within
a "living structure." Basically, a "Stingray" without a mind. The
"Mind" in
this case is the person, who sits within a suit-like harness that is part of
the design. I have considered Smart Materials for this, but don't think it
will work for the overall idea I have in mind.

2) I want something that is readily repairable and self-fueled (sort of).
Imagine a "filter feeding" mechanism applied to portions of the Apparati's
backside. As the object moves through the water medium, it could also feed
somewhat.

3) I know the tech idea would be on the high side, but the idea's this lends
off to me is increasingly interesting.

-=-=-

Also, what would you say the power of "Sonar" would probably cost for a PAD to
develop? "Sonar Hearing" IMO would still be the 0.25 sort of thing, but a
truer form of "Sonar Sense" would be more complex IMO. Ranges and the like
for the standard "improved sense" would be as per Passive Sonar rules in the
Cyberpirates rules.

-=-=-

Water Breathing. Okay, the "Cybergills" do exist, but what other options are
there?

I know that Spirit guard of the appropriate type (depending on the body of
water) gives the ability to breathe underwater.

I remember Oxygenate allowing a person to breathe underwater, and the
Cyberpirates books gives rules for LBA (Liquid Breathing Apparatus) and some
benefits of Oxygenate. My question comes into as this. What are the limits
of Oxygenate? I mean depth wise? Is there a limit to how far down this spell
would give the person?

I mean, an LBA apparatus imparts some of depth diving abilities from the fact
that "gaseous air" is mostly removed from the body and the person breathes a
fluid (which fluids compress differently anyway, and those physics always
confuse me). IF a person is using Spirit Guard/Oxygenate, what becomes the
new limit to the diving depths? This line of questioning is, as yet,
unanswered in any of the rule books.

-=-=-

T:SH gives rules for Low Light and "Blue Light" in an aquatic situation (WAY
COOL TOO!). However, as yet I have not found any rules for how much this gear
would cost. Gurth, anyone, ideas on this? My reason for this is because I
have a strange feeling our games are going to take a -SERIOUS- Aquarian bend
soon. And I want some ideas on how to compensate for the pressure changes
(giggle). IYHOs, would it be possible to have "Low Wattage Blue Light" and
"Low Light modification" on a single suit of something?

-=-=-

Does anyone have ideas for JYM suit modification and the ways they can work
better when combined with LBA or -other- mods (like Smart Materials,
Engine/Power Plant Customization, etc.). How about a "JYM Suit Template" from
Mike Bobroff or Jon Szeto???

-=-=-

Overall, what I have read or perused is interesting. I am sorry that Jon's
Ship Construction rules did NOT make it into the book. And according to
FASAInfo (forget his name ATM), the rules they still want to use, but don't
know of a sourcebook to put them in ATM. To me that means we are not likely
to see them for a while. Got a question for Jon on that one.... (Private)

-=-=-

Anybody got some really nifty spell ideas for this medium of the game? As I
mentioned in another posting a while back, "Freeze Water" is -THE- weapon to
use against Naval Vessels. Nothing else we've tried is gonna work by the
mechanics as they stand. Does anyone else have ideas?

Wrecker for instance. It's for use against "Vehicles", but the sheer size and
scale of Naval Vessels are definitely on a different measure of things.
Anyone have other ideas therefore?

=K

From:	Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: the Age of Aquarius
Date:	Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:16:31 EDT

Message no. 2 In a message dated 6/6/98 4:50:34 AM !!!First Boot!!!, Ereskanti@***.COM
writes:

> Does anyone have ideas for JYM suit modification and the ways they can work
> better when combined with LBA or -other- mods (like Smart Materials,
> Engine/Power Plant Customization, etc.). How about a "JYM Suit Template"
> from
> Mike Bobroff or Jon Szeto???
>

I'll work on something tonight and then post it to HHH, Jr ... this way
everyone can see it ...

-Mike

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: the Age of Aquarius
Date:	Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:27:50 +0000

Message no. 3 Long one, Keith.. very long one...

As usual I shoot down all creative thought indiscriminately, and
nitpick stuff to death. Hope you don't mind. :)
(Actually I forgot to do that a few places.).

> First of all, some category directed questions? Does anyone here believe it's
> possible to build a "Swim Suit" that is a modification of cybertechnology
> limbs and bioware-oriented coverings/musculature. My reason for asking this
> is many-fold.

*SNIP Abyss, don't remember the details*

It sounds like a fish-lookalike Anago, which is quite feasible. (MIT
is working on stuff like that today, AFAIK, using smart materials.).
How it would work... hm. Experiment with giving the Anago
smart-material bonus, if that doesn't look right, make something up.

> 2) I want something that is readily repairable and self-fueled (sort of).
> Imagine a "filter feeding" mechanism applied to portions of the Apparati's
> backside. As the object moves through the water medium, it could also feed
> somewhat.

That's not quite so easy, I think. No readily apparent fuel method
gives enough power to move with any sort of speed, unless you allow
REALLY small fusion reactors.. some sort of heat exchange system
might work, but I'm not familiar with that stuff. Batteries are
potent enough by 2050 to power such a thing for long, long distances
though. Some sort of biological power plant might be necessary, but
that is 'out there' stuff. Using anemonic muscle tied in to a
bioplant would be ... interesting.. (Ammonia-powered piesomaterial
(Brand of smart metal) muscles, same stuff used in the Wolf Suit I
described some days ago. Works surprisingly like normal muscles, but
uses ammonium instead of oxygen and glucose. Ammonia could be
generated by some sort of bioplant, as it is used in many organic
chemical processes.

> 3) I know the tech idea would be on the high side, but the idea's this lends
> off to me is increasingly interesting.

The tech so far, except for unlimited range, will almost certainly be
available before 2050.

With the self-sustained requirement, it doesn't look like vessels
refueling from a central base/research facility anymore, but rather a
nomadic subsurface population... ?

> Also, what would you say the power of "Sonar" would probably cost for a PAD
to
> develop? "Sonar Hearing" IMO would still be the 0.25 sort of thing, but a
> truer form of "Sonar Sense" would be more complex IMO. Ranges and the like
> for the standard "improved sense" would be as per Passive Sonar rules in
the
> Cyberpirates rules.

I've heard of blind people 'clicking' to get echo feedback around
them, so humans using 'active sonar' isn't unheard of, but it should
be a very, very limited form as more effective sonar, like dolphins
or bats use, requires physical features unavailable in humans. It
depends on what you want it to do, really. An effective active sonar
system giving perfect echo vision to 100 meters or so.. no, I don't
think so. But ability to notice metallic stuff nearby? No problem.

> Water Breathing. Okay, the "Cybergills" do exist, but what other options
are
> there?

OXSYS masks, oxygenate, LBA, skinnydiving, pressured gas, JIM suits,
subs.. um that was a rhethorical question, wasn't it? :)

> I know that Spirit guard of the appropriate type (depending on the body of
> water) gives the ability to breathe underwater.

BBB says 'the guard power protects against accidents, both normal and
those caused by the accident power'. If that means it protects
against drowning I'd interpret that as protection from accidental
immersion in water with resulting death, not from immersion in water
with resulting death, if you catch the distinction. If it says
something more on the subject in the Grimmy or Awakening, though, I'd
welcome that.

> I remember Oxygenate allowing a person to breathe underwater, and the
> Cyberpirates books gives rules for LBA (Liquid Breathing Apparatus) and some
> benefits of Oxygenate. My question comes into as this. What are the limits
> of Oxygenate? I mean depth wise? Is there a limit to how far down this spell
> would give the person?

Oxygenate, P161, Cyberpirates:
The oxygenate spell is a particularily valuable spell on underwater
trips, characters on whom it is cast are immune to all underwater
health hazards except for HPNS, which is not caused by gas effects.
(The same range of depth afforded with a cybergill - helium vent
combination.).

HPNS sets in at 200 meters (HPNS, P.159, Cyberpirates).
This doesn't make it impossible to go below 200 meters, but it makes
it dangerous to do so for more than a few minutes.

> I mean, an LBA apparatus imparts some of depth diving abilities from the fact
> that "gaseous air" is mostly removed from the body and the person breathes
a
> fluid (which fluids compress differently anyway, and those physics always
> confuse me). IF a person is using Spirit Guard/Oxygenate, what becomes the
> new limit to the diving depths? This line of questioning is, as yet,
> unanswered in any of the rule books.

Apparently Oxygenate not only adds oxygen but it removes unwanted
gases from the bloodstream, and thus removes the gases that has
turned toxic from the bloodstream as necessary, thus making an LBA
system unnecessary, with little cumulative effect. (They do the same
thing, basically, so doing both at the same time has no effect.).
Spirit guard.. well, I don't know about that. HPNS isn't an accident,
but a spell might be designed to protect against it.. depending on
the efficiency of that protection, it might allow diving as deep as
deep as 3000 meters. (The limit of the LBA/cybergill/Oxygenate
systen.)

You might assume that at depths below 80 meters someone diving by
using oxygenate drown or else gets cracked ribs. That is, either they
fill their lungs with seawater, or their ribcage compresses so much
it breaks. (Might want to install an air vent as used with the
cybergill system, to pressurize their lungs instead.). Using LBA
compensates for that, but using LBA makes using oxygenate
unnecessary. ('drown' above only means getting seawater in their
lungs. As the lungs are no longer necessary that's no problem. It'll
be uncomfortable and makes talking difficult, though.

*snip adressed to Gurth*

> Does anyone have ideas for JYM suit modification and the ways they can work
> better when combined with LBA or -other- mods (like Smart Materials,
> Engine/Power Plant Customization, etc.).

The problem is that they (JIM suits) are designed to withstand
immense pressure, and that is not generally considered conducive to
'high flexibility'. Smart materials aren't suitable for that, and
would only crumple. (They'd straighten out again when back nearer the
surface, but that wouldn't help the squished sod inside).

You could make a more flexible JIM suit by allowing it to impart some
pressure to the inside, and then using LBA or something to make the
wearer survive the imparted pressure - you might get either more
flexibility or more depth out of the suit by that, but it is a bit
like making a 'poorer' jim suit and compensating for it by using LBA,
rather than an improvement. (Unless you used smart materials,
necessitating LBA.. making a rigged 'fishsuit' for instance.

The rules fail for that sort of thing - use logic, some common sense,
and some 'cool' factor, and you should be set.

It would be possible to make a JIM suit in a swimming rig like the
manta rig you mention above, and it should work fine. Note that you
might want to go the whole way and make a minisub instead, once you
go that far.

LBA makes the body better able to breathe under pressure so as to
deal with problems down to 200 meters. It can go down to 3000 meters,
BUT IT DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF DOING SO - you still
suffer HPNS. Same with gill+air tank and oxygenate. The only
listed way of dealing with HPNS is to normalize the environment, by
using either a sub or a JIM suit (In effect a one-man sub with little
cargo space.).

You might consider allowing mechanization of the nervous system to
negate HPNS. Note that that's not wired, boosted, or MBW
mechanization, but something rather more extensive to cover sensory
input and internal organs. Nerves are more than reactions and
reflexes. If that is allowed, as well as other modifications, then a
diver could dive to at least 3000 meters' depth - enough for most
purposes. (Chemistry alters enough by that pressure that it's
unlikely that the body remains operational below such depths.).

Hm.. someone with total cybernetic replacement and a 'pressurized
skull' modification should be able to operate as if in a JIM suit -
below that they should take pressure damage. Might require hardened armor 6.
(Same as a JIM suit has.). Might assume it takes no diving damage at
any depth, or you might assume it fails at any depth less than 10
meters.

> Anybody got some really nifty spell ideas for this medium of the game? As I
> mentioned in another posting a while back, "Freeze Water" is -THE- weapon
to
> use against Naval Vessels. Nothing else we've tried is gonna work by the
> mechanics as they stand. Does anyone else have ideas?

*ponder* Anyone with physics around, tell me how much more energy it
takes to freeze water at a depth of 300 meters than to freeze it at
the surface? It's many orders of magnitude more, right?
*grin*

Other uses of spells.. one of the best spells for diving would be
'shapechange - dolphin'. They can dive to at least 1400 meters with
no ill effects. (Some whales and many sharks can go a LOT deeper.).

Also, the 'alleviate HPNS' spell (symptom treatment only).

An 'underwater vision' spell.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: the Age of Aquarius
Date:	Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:13:56 EDT

Message no. 4 In a message dated 6/6/98 1:28:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

> > I know that Spirit guard of the appropriate type (depending on the body of
> > water) gives the ability to breathe underwater.
>
> BBB says 'the guard power protects against accidents, both normal and
> those caused by the accident power'. If that means it protects
> against drowning I'd interpret that as protection from accidental
> immersion in water with resulting death, not from immersion in water
> with resulting death, if you catch the distinction. If it says
> something more on the subject in the Grimmy or Awakening, though, I'd
> welcome that.

Okay, you may be right, but damn that is a major change. I get the way it
could have been misinterpreted in First Ed really easy, especially after
rereading the First Ed grimoire on the topic of Spirit Guard. However,
"Drowning" does technically mean more than "sinking". Drowning is
Asphyxia in
all direct honesty. Thus, within a particular domain, "Drowning" even while
under the surface of the water (be it lake, River, Sea or Swamp), means you
will NOT suffer from Asphyxia. At least IMO.

> Oxygenate, P161, Cyberpirates:
> The oxygenate spell is a particularily valuable spell on underwater
> trips, characters on whom it is cast are immune to all underwater
> health hazards except for HPNS, which is not caused by gas effects.
> (The same range of depth afforded with a cybergill - helium vent
> combination.).
>
> HPNS sets in at 200 meters (HPNS, P.159, Cyberpirates).
> This doesn't make it impossible to go below 200 meters, but it makes
> it dangerous to do so for more than a few minutes.

Thanks for the recollection. Now then, to go further down...newer forms of
the spells???

> Apparently Oxygenate not only adds oxygen but it removes unwanted
> gases from the bloodstream, and thus removes the gases that has
> turned toxic from the bloodstream as necessary, thus making an LBA
> system unnecessary, with little cumulative effect. (They do the same
> thing, basically, so doing both at the same time has no effect.).

Actually, now you are going a bit strange. LBA also replaces various oxygen
carrying agents. I was thinking about the fact that since Oxygenate allows
for the person to "breathe water", that the ability to go deeper down would
exist.

> Spirit guard.. well, I don't know about that. HPNS isn't an accident,
> but a spell might be designed to protect against it.. depending on
> the efficiency of that protection, it might allow diving as deep as
> deep as 3000 meters. (The limit of the LBA/cybergill/Oxygenate
> systen.)
>
> You might assume that at depths below 80 meters someone diving by
> using oxygenate drown or else gets cracked ribs. That is, either they
> fill their lungs with seawater, or their ribcage compresses so much
> it breaks. (Might want to install an air vent as used with the
> cybergill system, to pressurize their lungs instead.). Using LBA
> compensates for that, but using LBA makes using oxygenate
> unnecessary. ('drown' above only means getting seawater in their
> lungs. As the lungs are no longer necessary that's no problem. It'll
> be uncomfortable and makes talking difficult, though.

Oh wow, without realizing it, you gave me an entirely new category of thought.
Merrow. They are effectively Trolls or Orks that live in the Aquarian
Environs. Anyone ever considered having a Merrow Character, even if it was
only playable in certain environs? This is of course barring any magical
usage to allow for a "greater degree of environmental flexibility."

> The problem is that they (JIM suits) are designed to withstand
> immense pressure, and that is not generally considered conducive to
> 'high flexibility'. Smart materials aren't suitable for that, and
> would only crumple. (They'd straighten out again when back nearer the
> surface, but that wouldn't help the squished sod inside).

I hadn't considered that in regards to JIM suits. I'll keep that in mind.
Okay then, how about "Structural Agility" and "Drive by Wire" systems
from R2?
More impeller commands and/or surface fins.

> You could make a more flexible JIM suit by allowing it to impart some
> pressure to the inside, and then using LBA or something to make the
> wearer survive the imparted pressure - you might get either more
> flexibility or more depth out of the suit by that, but it is a bit
> like making a 'poorer' jim suit and compensating for it by using LBA,
> rather than an improvement. (Unless you used smart materials,
> necessitating LBA.. making a rigged 'fishsuit' for instance.

Potentially what you are describing is possible. In the games here, we kept
coming up with "Military Armor" as a template, and designing around it.

DAMN but I am angry as Hell at them not putting in more of the vehicle mods
and/or accessories. I was really looking forward to having an idea of how to
modify a given craft/drone so as to make it go deeper.

> The rules fail for that sort of thing - use logic, some common sense,
> and some 'cool' factor, and you should be set.

That appears to be the only discourse remaining.

> It would be possible to make a JIM suit in a swimming rig like the
> manta rig you mention above, and it should work fine. Note that you
> might want to go the whole way and make a minisub instead, once you
> go that far.

Ah, but I was looking for something that could get into and out of a smaller
area (like a submerged/sunken ship or a cavern for instance) where as a
Minisub is simply incapable of entering. The reason I was thinking of the
"Cyberbionic Swimsuit" concept is because "living material" is simply
flexible
in it's many uses than purely mechanical ones are.

How is this for a thought?

Literally take the Manta Ray concept and remove the "mind". In it's place,
utilize a "neural link up" and a "Rigger Adaptive Processor", such
that a
given user gives the motivating directions. Certain biological / autonomic
functions could be monitored in other fashions.

Part of my thought behind this is also reliant on the fact that a certain
degree of "self repair" is being created here. Many tissues and the like are
replaced as the "Symbio Organism" of the "Manta" exoframe continues
about it's
continuous requirements.

Also, bionautic science could therefore replicate "Bioluminescence", and thus
create a source of available light (for short distance work, unless combined
with Blue Light Filters and Low Light?). Bioluminescent regions of the gear
could be part of the design. For corporations that are doing "long term
aquatic research", these types of things would be ideal.

Also, "Cyberbionic" organisms are treated somewhat differently IMO where
things like "Fix" and "Heal" magic would be concerned. Perhaps a new
variation of Health Magic that would be more like "repair biological tissue",
following along the lines of "Forensic Magic" (now there is a category that
isn't brought up very often). As long as said tissue is "functionally
sustained", the magic would work. Perhaps instead of a Manta Ray, let's go
for a "Jellyfish". Same undulating motility, and a more simplistic organism
to monitor.

> LBA makes the body better able to breathe under pressure so as to
> deal with problems down to 200 meters. It can go down to 3000 meters,
> BUT IT DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF DOING SO - you still
> suffer HPNS. Same with gill+air tank and oxygenate. The only
> listed way of dealing with HPNS is to normalize the environment, by
> using either a sub or a JIM suit (In effect a one-man sub with little
> cargo space.).

OR Genetic Modification of the Nervous System with regards to handling certain
materials/chemicals.

> You might consider allowing mechanization of the nervous system to
> negate HPNS. Note that that's not wired, boosted, or MBW
> mechanization, but something rather more extensive to cover sensory
> input and internal organs. Nerves are more than reactions and
> reflexes. If that is allowed, as well as other modifications, then a
> diver could dive to at least 3000 meters' depth - enough for most
> purposes. (Chemistry alters enough by that pressure that it's
> unlikely that the body remains operational below such depths.).

No offense, but IMO, at that level of change, we are talking Genetic
Alteration on a fundamental level. I'm NOT saying it wouldn't work, but it
would definitely be different.

> Hm.. someone with total cybernetic replacement and a 'pressurized
> skull' modification should be able to operate as if in a JIM suit -
> below that they should take pressure damage. Might require hardened armor
6.
> (Same as a JIM suit has.). Might assume it takes no diving damage at
> any depth, or you might assume it fails at any depth less than 10
> meters.

Had not thought of the "Borg Conversion" concept. Total Bodyware Structural
Replacement....hmmm....pondering....

> *ponder* Anyone with physics around, tell me how much more energy it
> takes to freeze water at a depth of 300 meters than to freeze it at
> the surface? It's many orders of magnitude more, right?
> *grin*

depends, and if so, then the magic *might* have to consider those changes as
well. BUT given the fact that spell is designed around an already existing
level of mechanics, it would probably work in any case.

> Other uses of spells.. one of the best spells for diving would be
> 'shapechange - dolphin'. They can dive to at least 1400 meters with
> no ill effects. (Some whales and many sharks can go a LOT deeper.).

Then go for the more direct animal concepts. I know that in many games,
"Size" constraints are placed upon the potential form(s) reachable with
Shapechange. In the games, here, that is simply not the case. This is magic,
and though it may or may not be restricted in some areas, this is simply not
one of them IMO.

> Also, the 'alleviate HPNS' spell (symptom treatment only).

An idea, but I think it would be more like a "Treat <Toxins>" magic than
an
alleviation of a symptom.

> An 'underwater vision' spell.

Which brings me to the next thought. In T:SH, it mentions the usage of "Blue
Light" as a diving alternative when brought into conjunction with Low Light
enhancement. Wonder how that kind of magic would work.

=K

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: the Age of Aquarius
Date:	Sun, 7 Jun 1998 02:08:00 +0000

Message no. 5 *SNIP spirit guard stuff*
Giving another example than drowning, I imagine guard works a lot
more by protecting the climber from tripping, than by making him
survive the 1000 foot fall. (Okay, smartass, from landing after a
1000 foot fall.;).

*SNIP oxygenate*

> Actually, now you are going a bit strange. LBA also replaces various oxygen
> carrying agents. I was thinking about the fact that since Oxygenate allows
> for the person to "breathe water", that the ability to go deeper down would
> exist.

Ahm.. .okay, clearing up time:
I thought oxygenate did not allow you to breathe water, but simply
oxygenated/maintained healthy oxygen/CO2/etc levels in the
bloodstream - that would be more consistent with underwater survival
being a side effect. (Main effect, IIRC, is protection from
gas/oxygen deprivation). Thus you don't need to breathe while under
the oxygenate spell, and thus avoids all problems with what becomes
toxic and not in your lungs. It is a slight problem because you need
to do something to align pressure, though, which (easiest) is to
flood your lungs with water. If it's water breathing, then it's
not a problem either. You won't have to worry about not doing
it either way, mind - I mentioned that to go below 80 meters using
the oxygenate spell you must flood your lungs with seawater. Now if
you do that because you breathe the stuff, or if you want to align
pressure, that doesn't really matter, because you do it either
way, but in either case it will trigger a drowning gag reflex when
you try to breathe the stuff the first time, which isn't pleasant,
but it won't stop you from doing it either.

LBA is simply a shell which makes the user breathe superoxygenated
liquid. The breathing liquid has two main advantages - it's
chemically stable under pressure, and thus doesn't go toxic like most
gas does, and it doesn't compress, making breathing it safer than
breathing gas. Fluorcarbons (? shadowtech thingy?) is the one that
supplements/replaces oxygen carrying agents in the bloodstream.).

> > LBA makes the body better able to breathe under pressure so as to
> > deal with problems down to 200 meters. It can go down to 3000 meters,
> > BUT IT DOESN'T DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS OF DOING SO - you still
> > suffer HPNS. Same with gill+air tank and oxygenate. The only
> > listed way of dealing with HPNS is to normalize the environment, by
> > using either a sub or a JIM suit (In effect a one-man sub with little
> > cargo space.).
>
> OR Genetic Modification of the Nervous System with regards to handling
> certain materials/chemicals.

Put quickly and brutally, Genetic modification like that is
impossible using standard SR tech. (Various comments in ShadowTech
about not being able to detail - modify genetics yet). I think it
will have to be bio or cyber mods for a while yet unless we're
talking seriously advanced shit. (Which we appear to be,
incidentally) - but is that a 'third' way to modify a body, or just
a variation on the other known methods? It seems more like advanced
biotech, growing the new part inside - rather than outside - the
host.

The alteration would be to handle pressure, not chemicals/materials,
mind.

*SNIP Bionetic vehicles*
Okay, this is an interesting idea. It's 'out there' in tech, but
heck, that's not new, is it?

It is, for lack of a better description, Vorlon technology. And it's
possible. It's one of the really interesting futuretechs RL, with
machines behaving like biology, and vice versa. It might be
possible through smart materials, nanotech, and a bit more.. but what
would be the effect, in game?

Before using it - it's a paradigm shift in technology. It would hold
promise in a *LOT* more than subsurface vehicles. The one of biggest
interest to street sams would be cyberware. But it doesn't look like
it has happened in SR yet.. be very careful about thinking through
ramifications before using it.

Nimue

The Nimue BRC - bio replicant craft - is a one-man, rigged only,
scout/science vessel. It is an experimental design based upon wolf
sharks in shape. Five meters long, looking like a yellowish - gray
shark, it swims through water as if it were its biological cousin. It
is a distant cousing of the Anago in capabilities. A shark shape was
deemed useful, as the sharks are high enough in the food chain that
it will not be attacked by other sea animals.

Handling: 2
The entire vessel is one huge control surface, and able to twist and
bend. Its handling is 2 simply because it cannot get lower according
to normal rules.

Speed: 50
While not faster than attack subs, it does not suffer cavitation at
any speed, as it does not need to create that much underpressure
during its 'swimming'.

Acceleration: 15
Same reason as its handling.

Body: 5
Its body rating is far higher than that of an equivalently - sized
craft. (Body 3). It is a massive vehicle, with no need of any hollow
areas, and every part of it is structurally very solid. It represents
the fact that it is massive, and thus able to resist a lot more
damage. There is no hollows inside the craft - not even for a pilot.
A pilot is 'sheathed' in its innards, much like in a womb.

Armor: 0
No armor is really required, it's a non-combat vessel. It can carry a
lot of additional weight if armor became a requirement, though.

Signature: 8
No engine noise, no cavitation, no strong heat sources, no hard
angled surfaces, no magnetic materials, signature like a biological.
That makes for a fairly high signature rating. (8 might be
conservative.).

Autonav: 5
Sensor: 6
Higher grade sensors was not considered necessary, as sensor - rating
6 is enough to create a highly accurate, highly detailed virtual
picture of the surroundings.

Cost: Like you wouldn't believe.

Seating: 1
(Rigged sheath)
Entry points: 0
There is no entry hatch or door, only an accomodating entry
'passage', almost invisible to outside inspection.

Depth: unlimited.
Any nerve failure due to high pressure is compensated for by a
feedback rig in the VCR system. Oxygenation is through an LBA rig and
optionally through injected fluorcarbons. Some permanent physical
damage may occur at depths higher than 3000 meters.

CF: 6
(May not be used for cargo, only electronics or modifications.).
Load: 4000
(In an under-belly hardpoint, designed to take a cargo tube.).

Fuel: Organic (100 PF)
Economy: 1 PF/4 KM
Regains 1 PF per ten minutes.

The Nimue feeds plankton and oxygen into the pilot's body, and
extracts glucose, which it burns for energy. The pilot's body, being
fairly close to stasis, requires little glucose for itself. The body
is kept nourished and alive indefinitely, but will degrade with time.
(Probably not necessary - might use artificial digestion for that,
but an interesting idea IMO.).

Note that with the similarity between the Nimue and a biological
body, it is easy, while rigging, to forget the body and live as the
Nimue instead. (That is, in fact, arguably, the intention.).

The implications of this tech is devastating, and I wouldn't
use it myself, unless I was prepared to play something quite
different from SR. I haven't underlined the 'alien' - from our
viewpoint - sides of this tech, but framed it in normal terms and
images. If you use it you must carefully strip away most such
references.

> > Other uses of spells.. one of the best spells for diving would be
> > 'shapechange - dolphin'. They can dive to at least 1400 meters with
> > no ill effects. (Some whales and many sharks can go a LOT deeper.).
>
> Then go for the more direct animal concepts. I know that in many games,
> "Size" constraints are placed upon the potential form(s) reachable with
> Shapechange. In the games, here, that is simply not the case. This is magic,
> and though it may or may not be restricted in some areas, this is simply not
> one of them IMO.

True - I took dolphins as an example because they are of a lot more
practical size than a full blown whale, they have effective sonar,
and is slightly better at manipulating objects. I've got nothing
against sharks - Tigersharks, for instance, are *frighteningly* good
swimmers. I also thought 1400 meters should be enough for all
practical purposes. ;)

> > Also, the 'alleviate HPNS' spell (symptom treatment only).
>
> An idea, but I think it would be more like a "Treat <Toxins>" magic
than an
> alleviation of a symptom.

HPNS is not a toxin - it's nerves which stops functioning properly
because of the pressure.(High pressure nervous syndrome) It's not a
disease, it's not a poison, it's simply a physical effect. Same as if
you apply pressure to the funnybone (right one?) - your arm is
immobilized. It's not a disease or toxin, but a direct physical
effect of pressure. You can only cure it by removing the pressure,
but you might be able to make you move the arm anyway.

> > An 'underwater vision' spell.
>
> Which brings me to the next thought. In T:SH, it mentions the usage of "Blue
> Light" as a diving alternative when brought into conjunction with Low Light
> enhancement. Wonder how that kind of magic would work.

You're trying to get me to buy T:SH, are you? :)
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: the Age of Aquarius
Date:	Sun, 7 Jun 1998 04:29:03 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 6/6/98 7:08:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

<Snipped a HUGE reply schema from Rune, which had me on the floor laughing and
on the edge of my chair scheming alternatively>

Rune, I have to hand it to you, the "Nimue" was a really neat conversion idea,
especially the logic you put up on the concept of "Predator Appearances".

Thanks also for correcting me on HPNS, you are right after I looked something
up that an "alleviate symptoms" would work just fine (more spell research
coming, I can see it happening). IF such a spell existed, I could see a HUGE
corporate free-for-all for the formulae (as it would make diving FAR more
economically feasible).

BUT, no one has come up with a cost for a PAD to develop "Radar Sense" as of
yet. My reason for it to be developed is along the concept of "Sound
Projection" as if it were an "Edge", and assign the point cost
appropriately.
By that idea, the PAD cost would be somewhere in the 2 - 3 point range.

> You're trying to get me to buy T:SH, are you? :)

Oh come on, that would be too shameless of a plug for me, don't you think????

:P

-K

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