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Message no. 1
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:30:30 -0500
Has anyone thought about this? Given that the mana cycle is about 10,000
years long (5000 up, 5000 down), by the Sixth world, the Earth is only
30,000 years old, which is far longer than the 6000 preached by the God
Squad, and far, far shorter than the 3 billion preached by the Scientists.
it is, in fact, shorter than the tenure of mankind on this planet, which
is currently reckoned at nearly 1 million years (for man-like bipeds).
Now, we all know that I wouldn't say something like this without a theory
or two. I think that the Second World was named retroactively, after the
coming of the Enemy. The mana cycle rose and fell during those earlier
times now dubbed "the First World" (a much longer time period than any
subsequent world), but no Horrors had found Earth, and as such, the
changes in the mana cycle were felt less acutely, perhaps being seen as
punishment from some now-forgotten gods, and the disappearance of the
other races (which could have theoretically been huge in number) as either
the withdrawal of the god's special children, or as the removal of demons
from the world.

Does anyone else have any theories?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 2
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:30:32 -0500
Well, you're assuming that the mana flucuations follow a regular periodic
function (like a sine wave or something). Maybe this isn't the case.
(Pause as I try to figure out how to word this...)
OK, think of this in terms of a weight on a spring attached to the
ceiling. (Classic physics/diffyQ problem) The position of the weight at
rest is arbitrarily denoted 0. If the weight is above this position, then
that is positive, negative being below that. If you pull it down and let
go (assuming you ignore nasty thinks like fluid damping or air resistance
or outside forcing :-) ), the weight bounces up and down over a regular
period, the same amount each way, indefinitely (well, neglecting gravatic
effects too haha!). Now assume gravity's effects _do_ take effect. The
maximum displacement from 0 is the first up-and-down swing, after which
the weight swings less and less as gravity "bleeds off" some of the force.
(Sorry if all this physics crap is unclear, I probably should have tried
for a chemistry analogy instead.)
Ok, the mana level is like the displacement of the weight. What
I'm getting at is that if the period is not regular, then magic would be
stronger at first, and the mana cycles would be longer, gradually getting
less stronger at each peak and shorter in cycle time until a certain
ground state is reached. Make sense?
Possible implications that seem to back this up:
1)The oldest races are those that require the highest mana level
(dragons, immortal elves) to exist.
2)"Old" magic is generally more powerful, maybe b/c the
practicioners have had millenia to refine it, but also maybe because such
magic's developement was _only possible_ in earlier worlds. (Maybe
discovering something requires a higher threhold of effort than actually
using it (a la activation energys in chem).) (c.f. Harlequin)
3) The Horrors require a high level of mana to "cross over" from
their turf into ours (I'm sorry but doesn't the whole Horrors crap sound
like a badly-written gang fight?), and they only did this in ancient
times.
4)This would allow SR to at least remain semi-congruent with
established fact about the age of the Universe and the Earth (I'm not
going to get into that Creationist bullshit, because that's exactly what
it is: bullshit. Those who believe it are either uneducated and don't
know any better, or they are willfully ignorant.). Admittidly, magic and
what not is blatantly nonscientific, but the "hard tech" areas of SR all
seem to strive for a fairly high level of scientific realism (face it,
the medium through which this mailing list exists was science fiction in
1946 (52 years from now being that magic date...)so virtually everything
in the SR pantheon of tech books is possible, even though it seems mere
fancy now (my hard-to-discern point being that you can't predict what
will be possible in the future)).
Anyway, that's just my sleep-deprived .02Y worth. :-)

As a last note: I love all the twisted ideas you guys came up with
for the cyber-ass. :) I was ROTFL after seeing some of them...


*****************Michael Orion Jackson******************
***********TAMS Class of 96/UT Class of 2000************
*********************Random Quote:**********************
********************************************************
*Technology is not for wimps. Member: DNRC (iS)*********
********************************************************
Message no. 3
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:09:37 +0100
> it is, in fact, shorter than the tenure of mankind on this planet, which
>is currently reckoned at nearly 1 million years (for man-like bipeds).
> Now, we all know that I wouldn't say something like this without a
theory
>or two. I think that the Second World was named retroactively, after the
>coming of the Enemy. The mana cycle rose and fell during those earlier
>times now dubbed "the First World" (a much longer time period than any
>subsequent world), but no Horrors had found Earth, and as such, the
>changes in the mana cycle were felt less acutely, perhaps being seen as
>punishment from some now-forgotten gods, and the disappearance of the
>other races (which could have theoretically been huge in number) as either
>the withdrawal of the god's special children, or as the removal of demons
>from the world.
>
> Does anyone else have any theories?
>

The other answer is that their was no civilisation advanced enough to record
the mana cycles previous to the 1st and 2nd worlds, even if they did happen
in the same way (no reason they shouldnt have either). 5-10000 years is a
long time to remember details passed down in word of mouth stories between a
very spread out population.

Of course, no one has yet asked the Great Dragons what 'world' they think it
is !

Mark
Message no. 4
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:29:18 +0100
>(Sorry if all this physics crap is unclear, I probably should have tried
>for a chemistry analogy instead.)
> Ok, the mana level is like the displacement of the weight. What
>I'm getting at is that if the period is not regular, then magic would be
>stronger at first, and the mana cycles would be longer, gradually getting
>less stronger at each peak and shorter in cycle time until a certain
>ground state is reached. Make sense?


Very smooth metaphor, and a nice idea too. Of course what makes this thread
so much fun is we can do pretty much whatever we want, I doubt FASA will
ever release a 'Jurassic Sourcebook'.

> Possible implications that seem to back this up:
> 1)The oldest races are those that require the highest mana level
>(dragons, immortal elves) to exist.


Hmm, cant see how this one relates to the irregular cycle, unless there are
fewer of these now than in previous 'worlds'.

> 2)"Old" magic is generally more powerful, maybe b/c the
>practicioners have had millenia to refine it, but also maybe because such
>magic's developement was _only possible_ in earlier worlds. (Maybe
>discovering something requires a higher threhold of effort than actually
>using it (a la activation energys in chem).) (c.f. Harlequin)


Remember we are stll on the upslope of the cycle. Figure the 'positive
magic' period to be 5000 years, the level will peak 2500 years into the
cycle, and the Awakening is only 47 years old. Thats a hell of a lot of mana
coming our way.

> 3) The Horrors require a high level of mana to "cross over" from
>their turf into ours (I'm sorry but doesn't the whole Horrors crap sound
>like a badly-written gang fight?), and they only did this in ancient
>times.


I think I read in an Earthdawn promo once (never played it though, any
good?) that the Horrors were only over for 4-500 years at the peak of the
last cycle. Fair enough this time they had help, but if they can still get
over 2500 years early this time, we probably havent lost that much in magic
potential.

> 4)This would allow SR to at least remain semi-congruent with
>established fact about the age of the Universe and the Earth (I'm not
>going to get into that Creationist bullshit, because that's exactly what
>it is: bullshit. Those who believe it are either uneducated and don't
>know any better, or they are willfully ignorant.). Admittidly, magic and
>what not is blatantly nonscientific, but the "hard tech" areas of SR all
>seem to strive for a fairly high level of scientific realism (face it,
>the medium through which this mailing list exists was science fiction in
>1946 (52 years from now being that magic date...)so virtually everything
>in the SR pantheon of tech books is possible, even though it seems mere
>fancy now (my hard-to-discern point being that you can't predict what
>will be possible in the future)).
> Anyway, that's just my sleep-deprived .02Y worth. :-)
>
> As a last note: I love all the twisted ideas you guys came up with
>for the cyber-ass. :) I was ROTFL after seeing some of them...
>
Ditto. Complete nutters the lot of you !

Mark
Message no. 5
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:57:44 PDT
> Has anyone thought about this? Given that the mana cycle is
about 10,000
>years long (5000 up, 5000 down), by the Sixth world, the Earth is only
>30,000 years old,

No no no no no... Think about it. Who records the history cycles?
That's right, us hoo-mans(or Metahoomans). That just means we've been
around that long(as opposed to science's guess at about 10,000). Just
because we came about and decided to start counting the manacycles
doesn't mean there weren't any BEFORE man came into the fold(or even
dragons). Maybe the answer to what *really* happened to the dinosaurs
is in what happened to the 4th world... :)
As a side note, I believe the "First world" was ruled entirely by
dragons. I can't remember if I read this somewhere or if it was just a
"theory" I read by someone(e.g. IIRC). Either way, I liked the
reasoning behind it.

-Vagabond
"Under wandering stars I've grown"
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 6
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:55:27 -0500
> Of course, no one has yet asked the Great Dragons what 'world' they
think it
> is !

Actually, I think it was The Big D himself who started using the Sixth
World.
Message no. 7
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:08:53 -0500
> OK, think of this in terms of a weight on a spring attached to
the
> ceiling. (Classic physics/diffyQ problem)
<snip the rest of example>
What if instead of just a spring attached to the ceiling, we also have
one attached to the floor? That way, we have two poles, one of Mundane
(the floor spring) and one of Magic (the ceiling spring). In the middle,
we have the weight of Earth. Since the First world was arguably Mundane
(seeing as how the Fifth and Third Worlds were), we pull our weight down,
then release it. The magic spring pulls it upward (while we would
experience these change fairly quickly, we must remember that they would
proceed in geologic time), passing through the median time, and up to the
peak of the magic cycle, where the mundane cycle would being its downward
pull.
Eventually, if the springs are perfectly balanced (given that both
technology and magic appear to be developing at nearly the same pace, I
believe that that is a safe bet)(Yes, I know they are for game balance,
but one must think in terms of the world, not the game), the globe will
stop in precisely that median time between Mundane and Magic; The
Awakening. At that point, there will constantly be magic in the world,
and mundane achievements will be balanced with magical achievements. if
one thinks about it, the mana level in 205x would be about what this
median world would be like.

> 4)This would allow SR to at least remain semi-congruent with
> established fact about the age of the Universe and the Earth
> Admittidly, magic and what not is blatantly nonscientific, but the "hard
tech" areas of SR all
> seem to strive for a fairly high level of scientific realism (face it,
the medium through which > this mailing list exists was science fiction in
1946 (52 years from now being that magic > date...)so virtually everything
in the SR pantheon of tech books is possible, even though it > seems mere
fancy now (my hard-to-discern point being that you can't predict what will
be > possible in the future)).
Magic doesn't violate the laws of science, merely what we know of them
<g>.

> As a last note: I love all the twisted ideas you guys came up
with
> for the cyber-ass. :) I was ROTFL after seeing some of them...
Yeah, its obvious that a lot of thought has been given to those, and its
not just something you pulled out your ass (come on, you knew someone was
going to make the joke).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 8
From: Johan Felt <is97jfa@*******.HK-R.SE>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:25:13 +0200
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

W
A
R
N
I
N
G
!























As I understand it it was one of the great horror Verjigorms minons who
created the dragons, humans, elfs, orks, and all the rest (Earthdawn
sourcebook Horrors p66-68), and when Verjigorm later came to this realm the
minon stod up and defended it's creations against the horror. Do I have to
say that it died. I don't know if it's just a legend spead by horrors, but
I use it in my campain.

--
// Johan Fält
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:37:55 +0000
> Well, you're assuming that the mana flucuations follow a regular periodic
> function (like a sine wave or something). Maybe this isn't the case.
> (Pause as I try to figure out how to word this...)

<snip physics>

I agree, but not with your spring example. My theory is that the two
versions of the mana cycle we've seen (Ed and SR), BOTH have
disturbances.

1) In ED, the mana level was decreasing from the peak....and then
held steady. Reason unknown.

2) In SR, despite FASAMike's take on it, we were given the impression
that the mana increase was early and steep. Correcting for recent
adjustments in the theory of how it worked, (i.e. stamping out the
Ghost dance peak, etc), still leaves you with the fact that all the
IE's considered it to be early (and they should be able to handle
that much.)

So I think the mana cycle is only a rough approximation, not a smooth
sine wave.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:42:29 +0000
> dragons). Maybe the answer to what *really* happened to the dinosaurs
> is in what happened to the 4th world... :)

<imagines Tyransaurus with Adaptive Coloration and shudders>

As long as we're on this cross over thread, The ED book Horror has a
story told by a Great Dragon where the first world (not
necessarily the First world) was populated by the horrors, which
created the frist dragons, which then banished the horrors and
created the name-giving races.

Interesting at least.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 11
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:38:54 -0700
----------
> From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
> Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 1:37 AM
>
> > Well, you're assuming that the mana flucuations follow a regular
periodic
> > function (like a sine wave or something). Maybe this isn't the case.
> > (Pause as I try to figure out how to word this...)
>
> <snip physics>
>
> I agree, but not with your spring example. My theory is that the two
> versions of the mana cycle we've seen (Ed and SR), BOTH have
> disturbances.
>
> 1) In ED, the mana level was decreasing from the peak....and then
> held steady. Reason unknown.
>
>
<snip>
> So I think the mana cycle is only a rough approximation, not a smooth
> sine wave.
>

Maybe it's possible to influence it through outside forces...? I should
hate to think what would influence it though... Eep.
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:32:22 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 2:50:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time, bxb121@***.EDU
writes:

> As long as we're on this cross over thread, The ED book Horror has a
> story told by a Great Dragon where the first world (not
> necessarily the First world) was populated by the horrors, which
> created the frist dragons, which then banished the horrors and
> created the name-giving races.
>
Yeah, the story told by Icewing (or something similar). A dracoform we
haven't heard from in SR's age...he's probably died somewhere or he's been
smart enough to sleep late :)

The story is interesting from various POV. We've used it actually, but
modified it towards the view of things that I put forth.

In other words, the Horror-spawned "Nightkiller" mentioned in the Horrors book
was one of those forces that brought "sentience" to the races of Earth. Not
the only one, just one of them....

-K
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:04:07 EDT
> Maybe it's possible to influence it through outside forces...? I should
> hate to think what would influence it though... Eep.


Here's a Hiint...LOOK TO THE SKIES!!!!

-K
Message no. 14
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:41:46 -0400
At 09:11 AM 4/22/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> Anyway, I'll dig up the hand-out I have on this theory tonight if I can
>> remember. I seem to recall trying to dig up additional info on the concept
>> at the local library and they thought I was on the crack rock. Your local
>> major university may have more though.
>
>Sounds good, but going to the library looking for "some report" might
>take a while :)

That it might. The theory is called "Elliot Wave Analysis." There at
least used to be an "Elliot Wave International" based in Gainesville,
Georgia; if you want their address/PO Box I can post that too.

But their indicators show that something majorly traumatic is due to happen
sometime soon. When and what is about as clear as mud though.

>> There was another Humanities class on creativity that did finger painting
>> and poetry and stuff that was the same basic concept, of getting the
>> students to think "outside the box." I took that class also. ;-)
>
>I'd fail fingerpainting, but I can't even see the box from here :)

When I used to be a cubicle warrior, I was in the box all the time. Now
I've got my own office and not a whole lot has changed, just gained a door
that has to be open all the time anyway. At least I have an outside window.

Man what I wouldn't give to fingerpaint the days away and still get paid to
do it...

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 15
From: Matthew Waddilove <m_waddilove@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:24:30 PDT
Erik Jameson wrote
>
>At 09:11 AM 4/22/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>> Anyway, I'll dig up the hand-out I have on this theory tonight if I
can
>>> remember. I seem to recall trying to dig up additional info on the
concept
>>> at the local library and they thought I was on the crack rock. Your
local
>>> major university may have more though.
>>
>>Sounds good, but going to the library looking for "some report" might
>>take a while :)
>
>That it might. The theory is called "Elliot Wave Analysis." There at
>least used to be an "Elliot Wave International" based in Gainesville,
>Georgia; if you want their address/PO Box I can post that too.
>
>But their indicators show that something majorly traumatic is due to
happen
>sometime soon. When and what is about as clear as mud though.
>

I found a website that is about using the Elliot Wave Principle for
financial forcasting but the basic theory is there and there is
information from a book in the theory.
so here's the url http://www.mgl.ca/~yauger/


>>> There was another Humanities class on creativity that did finger
painting
>>> and poetry and stuff that was the same basic concept, of getting the
>>> students to think "outside the box." I took that class also. ;-)
>>
>>I'd fail fingerpainting, but I can't even see the box from here :)
>
>When I used to be a cubicle warrior, I was in the box all the time.
Now
>I've got my own office and not a whole lot has changed, just gained a
door
>that has to be open all the time anyway. At least I have an outside
window.
>
>Man what I wouldn't give to fingerpaint the days away and still get
paid to
>do it...
>
>Erik J.
>

Cubicle CUBICLE!!! what I wouldn't give to have a cubicle, at the moment
I'm trying to program(well at the moment reading my email but you get
the idea) at the edge of a callcenter containing upwards of 200 people
just in this room and they wonder why so many members of the development
team are ill.

-Matthew Waddilove


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Message no. 16
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:59:39 -0700
> Has anyone thought about this? Given that the mana cycle is
> about 10,000
>years long (5000 up, 5000 down), by the Sixth world, the Earth is
>only 30,000 years old, which is far longer than the 6000 preached by
>the God Squad, and far, far shorter than the 3 billion preached by
>the Scientists. it is, in fact, shorter than the tenure of mankind on
>this planet, which is currently reckoned at nearly 1 million years
>(for man-like bipeds).

A couple of points I would like to point out..
1] [I perfer to use wave theory] Assuming the mana cycle occurs as a
perfect sine wave and that each complete wave is 10K years long Also
assuming that the mana cycle began as soon as the earth had formed
into a living planet this would make the living earth 50,000 years
old at the least placing us somewhere at the begining of the 6th
world or mana cycle. This would give a 5K year positive portion of
the cycle and 5K years of negative portion of the cycle started if
the living earth bagan on a negative phase of the cycle the earth
would be 60,000.

2] The mana cycle is not a sine wave. This is born out by the leveling
off of the mana cycle in Earthdawn. So each portion of the cycle is
itrregular in period or duration and there fore it is impossible to
gauge the actual age of the earth by the manacycle.

3] And then there is the little problem of guaging when the worlds
start and stop. Since we do not use the same calander as was used in
ancient times this makes guestimation rather difficult.
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
Kind of a bummer. Gettin' your butt kicked by a dead guy.
- Lt Col McQueen
The truth is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What do Klingons dream about?
Things that would send cold chills
down your spine...It is better you
did not know.
- Major Norece to Commander Worf

Further Reading

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