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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:40:20 EDT
In a message dated 4/18/98 12:38:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> Does anyone else have any theories?
>
Oh yeah, and a ton of them. Let's see, we'll go for the most pronounced -I-
have.


Each of the "Worlds" or "Ages" are a perceptive measure of recorded or
recordable time. In order for such perceptions to actually happen, a
recording race or being must be involved.

Earth could easily be that "3 Billion Plus" that science mentions, and it
could be the "6,000" that you were claiming others had said it to be. Please
note however on that last group, that time is subjective. Several noted
figures within the Bible for instance are incredibly old (Moses, Lazarus,
etc.) So old in fact that we have to sit and go "HOW??" Simply because we
only perceive time as we do now.

Calendars are a significant tool, and the ruling force, be it governmental or
religious or other in origin, ultimately determines how "Old" something is.

SR's universe, IF the ED crossover is occurent, has to do with the concept of
"Ages", but whose? The Cycles of Mana concept, IIRC, falls back to a textual
representation of a speach that Ehran the Scribe gave to a bunch of the "Young
Elven Technologists", proclaiming material concerning the calendar itself, as
in which calendar to use and which one would better represent the rise and
fall of the magical eras. Ehran supported the Egyptian Powers-that-were.
Someone a bit better in the know supported the Mayans (who, we as yet do not
really know). In the end, the Mayans were more accurate.

(Digression Factor) Ehran is "xenocentric" in his belief structure, in that
the Elves would be the first sign of the Re-Awakening. But the Mayans' had a
focus upon the first Great Dragon Awakening, so you tell me who knows more....

(Back on Track Now) In that conversation, Ehran stated the approximate times
between the Cycles of Mana to be about 5,000 years (the exact number he gave,
I don't have anymore).

(Digression Factor) Please note, in that conversation Ehran admitted to be at
-least- 5,000 years old and knowing at least one Pharoah from the ancient
world.

(BoTN) As such, the cycles were given a calendric form in order for others to
follow them (ie; US the player in truth). And, as such, they were defined.

That defining is the key here IMO. Definition requires some knowledge, and in
order to have that knowledge, you have to have some form of Perception. Magic
is great for that, but as so many people both on and off the list have said,
NOT the end all be all of knowledge.

Sure, Ehran had tons of information at his fingertips, his command of the
magic was no doubt impressive, and still is (they don't give him stats to
represent that for instance). BUT, Science is an exacting, without
compassion, "Force" as it were. It ultimately lacks a true bias, hence the
reason that people have so much problem ultimately understanding...we are a
compassionate creature after all.

But Science defines in the finite ultimately. Magic leaves a lot of
measurable "openness" for speculation. That Speculation Space gives rise to
perceptual measurement.

Science, as we hold it in the 20th Century now, holds the Earth to be 3-4
Billion or so years old. SR's "Magical Scholars", hold the last age to be
5,000 years ago, and have dubbed "the current timeline" to be the Sixth Age.
Which opens the question ... What/When was the First Age?

IF, the Ages are consistent, then that makes the "earth" about 25,000 years
old. (remember, this is the beginning of the Sixth, not it's conclusion).

That number is very important.

MOST Societal Structures on Earth are only about 25,000 years old on the
outside (including the initial forming of cave collectives here). So SR isn't
all that far from correct.

The measured Ages are about 25,000 Years old. That's about the time that
"Mankind" was able to record something, speak something that another would
figure out beyond himself (and beyond non-verbal cues), and ultimately select
how s/he would live out their existence (do I dig today or go hunting?).

Now apply the Mana cycles AND the Scientific Theory at the same time.

Mana probably has come and gone, risen and fallen, over the vastness of the
world's long history. But Mankind's ability to measure it has only been so
limited. Who/What could have measured time's passing before the coming of man
could be anyone's guess.

I'm gonna make one or two.

How about the Obsidiman and Tskrang of ED? Both of their races are indicative
of being -REALLY- old, even in ED's timeline. Perhaps they are merely
throwbacks from that age. The Obsidiman are, to me at least, a manifestation
of the "Liferocks" universal subconscious to "interact" (if you have
ever seen
'Earth-2', you have an idea of what I mean). Tskrang are incredibly
ritualistic, in dress, speach, and life path choosing. That degree of
ritualism defines an older culture, yet it also defines the limits of the
culture's adaptivity.

Why aren't there bones of these races?

I'm not so sure there aren't in SR. Remember the question bouncing around
about "Shaper DNA"? When that DNA comes into contact with a proper/triggering
quality/quantity of Ambient Mana, it transforms into it's desired state (how
Goblinization occurred). Now the big problem with the transformation process
is that those bones are buried, and the relatively solid earth is not very
pliant. Those bones change, and many of them would break if they are still
trapped within such a place.

Why haven't the bones of the museums transformed then? Well here's a really
neat consideration. The bones on display have been treated, bleached, acid-
toned. Their DNA patterns are no longer viable for any measure of
understanding. Also, a LOT of those major displays are just that, displays.
Plaster and Plastic Castings of the real thing, made in order to preserve the
ability to study them. The bones back in the archives and boxes??? Well to
be honest, it simply hasn't been pursued very heavily in SR.

Everyone's been concentrating on "corporate life" and "life in the
shadows"
and "life with magic" to really full heartedly care what is in those boxes
now.

Those who don't learn from the Past are Fated to Ultimately Repeat It

To me, Earth -IS- 3-4 billion years old, but the recorded age of things is
still about 25,000 years or so.

The Bible?

I am going to ruffle some feathers here, but in all truth. That book is a
collection of works from a lot of sources. A LOT of those sources are very
"ethnocentric" and "pathocentric" in their outlook. I am very pained
to see
and feel and understand what that means. Do you? It means that so many
decisions have been made based upon the beliefs that are merely a given person
or persons interpretation of a feeling or a compassion or desire.

Take the modern time. There are groups that are striving to "Strike Down the
King James Bible" as it currently stands. They have found material
surrounding King James that says he may have been Gay. As such, those groups
are really out to make certain that those things influenced by such a
"corrupted individual" are to be removed.

Now make that comparison to the past. People may or may not have understood
what they were feeling (and who ever said Sex wasn't powerful needs to be
fucked up the ass and made to understand the dramatics of those
feelings....NOT a plug for Rape!!!).

Now imagine how one or two people who would be in charge of the "original text
materials" could have easily altered the course of all generations to come.
If they would have inwardly desired something to be a certain way, and desired
such deeply, it could have "manifested" as a means to change the status quo.

I know, you think I've digressed heavily. In truth, I've not.

Ehran is a character that has been presented to us as someone desiring to see
"the Status Quo" changed. And he is in a position of immense influence. He
possesses incredible knowledge of the past, and has no doubt learned to
recognize various patterns within "the (meta)Human Nature".

But the calendar situation is a proof that he's let things distract him. It
proves his fallibility. He's made choices in the past where "he and his kind
knew better", and have hence made choices for others. Including how we
perceive the past.

Science isn't distracted from truths. It's without distraction, at least in
it's purest form. But human understanding of that Truth is fallible. It is
influenced by what is within the very core of what it means to be a living,
thinking, feeling, being.

And remember, that Human Nature is an extension, no matter how small it may
seem, to the rest of the Universe as a whole. To me, if I wanted to let the
"Grand Scheme of Things Rule", that would mean to me that the Universe isn't
ready to be understood just yet. And it will let "the Human View of the
Universe" get all confused for as long as it takes to make them, US, grow up.

Oh yeah sure, if people like Erik and Drek and David and Gurth make it this
far through this posting/reply. then they are probably gonna have some major
thoughts. And I hope they and everyone else do make it this far.

Nexx, you have asked a question that is far beyond the religious argument yet
what ultimately defines it. You have asked a question that as yet isn't
answered by anyone because in truth, no one can answer it.

Not Yet at Least....

-K

PS...question of the Lifetime...what defines Immortality???
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:02:30 -0400
At 09:40 AM 4/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Each of the "Worlds" or "Ages" are a perceptive measure of
recorded or
>recordable time. In order for such perceptions to actually happen, a
>recording race or being must be involved.

True.

>Earth could easily be that "3 Billion Plus" that science mentions, and it
>could be the "6,000" that you were claiming others had said it to be.
Please
>note however on that last group, that time is subjective. Several noted
>figures within the Bible for instance are incredibly old (Moses, Lazarus,
>etc.) So old in fact that we have to sit and go "HOW??" Simply because we
>only perceive time as we do now.

This is problematic. How we percieve time is subjective. How we measure
time is objective however. A year has been, roughly, a year for quite a
while in Western Civilization. A year in Biblical time is somewhere close
to a modern year. So according to certain readings of the Bible, the Earth
is roughly 6000 years old or so. Which doesn't match up with certain
measurements of various rocks and the like. Science declares the world to
be roughly 3 Billion years or so. Why the discrepancy? A big part of it
is the fact that the Old Testament is as much a religious text as it's a
historical text. The people had no reason to record what came before them;
that itself was limited by their memories (the proto-Hebrews had probably
been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years before they started
recording anything). So the Bible records about 6000 years of history and
myth. Nothing more, nothing less. (I'm ignoring it's religious
implications right now, so let's not discuss that)

>Calendars are a significant tool, and the ruling force, be it governmental or
>religious or other in origin, ultimately determines how "Old" something is.

Hence our own calendar system.

>That defining is the key here IMO. Definition requires some knowledge,
and in
>order to have that knowledge, you have to have some form of Perception.
Magic
>is great for that, but as so many people both on and off the list have said,
>NOT the end all be all of knowledge.

I'll accept that.

>Sure, Ehran had tons of information at his fingertips, his command of the
>magic was no doubt impressive, and still is (they don't give him stats to
>represent that for instance). BUT, Science is an exacting, without
>compassion, "Force" as it were. It ultimately lacks a true bias, hence the
>reason that people have so much problem ultimately understanding...we are a
>compassionate creature after all.

Urk, I'm not so sure of that. We are a feeling creature, not necessarily
compassionate. And let's not forget that science (I refuse to capitalize
it; makes it seem too religious then) is colored and biased by the people
who perform the science and report it. It is possible for 100 people to do
the same experiment the same way, with the same result, but have it be
interpreted 100 different ways. That's pushing it a bit, but you get the
point.

>But Science defines in the finite ultimately. Magic leaves a lot of
>measurable "openness" for speculation. That Speculation Space gives rise to
>perceptual measurement.

Ok.

>Science, as we hold it in the 20th Century now, holds the Earth to be 3-4
>Billion or so years old. SR's "Magical Scholars", hold the last age to be
>5,000 years ago, and have dubbed "the current timeline" to be the Sixth Age.
>Which opens the question ... What/When was the First Age?

Easy. When the first "modern" sentient creatures could measure and record
the passage of time.

Problem here is though the terminology. Sixth World, I believe, is a Mayan
term from their calendar. It's their term, not the dragons or elves. To
the Mayans, it's the Sixth World. It's the Fifth for the Aztecs. "Sixth
World" is as much a pop culture term as anything else in the world of SR.
It is entirely possible that this is really the 10,000th World, based on
Magic cycles. And maybe the dragons know that, or they know they've
experienced 5000 Ages. But the dragons aren't going to tell us anything.
So the Sixth World is as good as any other term.

>IF, the Ages are consistent, then that makes the "earth" about 25,000 years
>old. (remember, this is the beginning of the Sixth, not it's conclusion).
>
>That number is very important.
>
>MOST Societal Structures on Earth are only about 25,000 years old on the
>outside (including the initial forming of cave collectives here). So SR
isn't
>all that far from correct.

Pretty much right.

>Mana probably has come and gone, risen and fallen, over the vastness of the
>world's long history. But Mankind's ability to measure it has only been so
>limited. Who/What could have measured time's passing before the coming of
man
>could be anyone's guess.

True. And interesting question.

>I'm gonna make one or two.

I knew you would.

>How about the Obsidiman and Tskrang of ED? Both of their races are
indicative
>of being -REALLY- old, even in ED's timeline. Perhaps they are merely
>throwbacks from that age. The Obsidiman are, to me at least, a manifestation
>of the "Liferocks" universal subconscious to "interact" (if you
have ever
seen
>'Earth-2', you have an idea of what I mean). Tskrang are incredibly
>ritualistic, in dress, speach, and life path choosing. That degree of
>ritualism defines an older culture, yet it also defines the limits of the
>culture's adaptivity.

Strong ritual can be a sign of a decadent culture (i.e. not progessing or
advancing, not "decadent" as in Roman orgies or something). It can
sometimes also be sign of a young culture, one who's only binding
characteric is it's rituals. Or it could be a sign of a culture in
transition; as things change around them, they cling to the things they
know. An argument could be made for Western Civilization being in that
middle stage right now. I'd tend to agree with you though.

>Why aren't there bones of these races?
>
>I'm not so sure there aren't in SR. Remember the question bouncing around
>about "Shaper DNA"? When that DNA comes into contact with a
proper/triggering
>quality/quantity of Ambient Mana, it transforms into it's desired state (how
>Goblinization occurred). Now the big problem with the transformation process
>is that those bones are buried, and the relatively solid earth is not very
>pliant. Those bones change, and many of them would break if they are still
>trapped within such a place.

I don't like this answer. I don't see the bones of dead people goblinizing
in the grave; it doesn't make much biological sense. Goblinization was a
genetic expression that was triggered by an increase of an outside energy,
aka magic. Essentially dead bones won't transform like that.

>Why haven't the bones of the museums transformed then? Well here's a really
>neat consideration. The bones on display have been treated, bleached, acid-
>toned. Their DNA patterns are no longer viable for any measure of
>understanding. Also, a LOT of those major displays are just that, displays.
>Plaster and Plastic Castings of the real thing, made in order to preserve the
>ability to study them. The bones back in the archives and boxes??? Well to
>be honest, it simply hasn't been pursued very heavily in SR.

Nearly every "bone" on public display isn't the real thing. Almost all the
real stuff is under lock and key available only for researchers.

It hasn't been pursued in SR because there would have to be all sorts of
bizarre theories created to reconcile our world with that of the game.
That's a general error in my opinion. SR is a sort of alternate dimension
from ours, it's history and whatnot doesn't coincide with ours.

>Everyone's been concentrating on "corporate life" and "life in the
shadows"
>and "life with magic" to really full heartedly care what is in those boxes
>now.

For the most part, you're probably right. But I don't think they would
have changed.

And what about the buildings? Okay, Thera might have sunk beneath the
waves and become the legend of Atlantis. But what about all the other
major, sometimes massive, stone cities? There would *have* to be some
evidence of them. And there isn't. Why haven't kaers been found?

>Those who don't learn from the Past are Fated to Ultimately Repeat It

A lesson no one really seems to understand. I know I fail at it too often.

>To me, Earth -IS- 3-4 billion years old, but the recorded age of things is
>still about 25,000 years or so.

Good reconciliation there. Astute.

>The Bible?
>
>I am going to ruffle some feathers here, but in all truth. That book is a
>collection of works from a lot of sources. A LOT of those sources are very
>"ethnocentric" and "pathocentric" in their outlook. I am very
pained to see
>and feel and understand what that means. Do you? It means that so many
>decisions have been made based upon the beliefs that are merely a given
person
>or persons interpretation of a feeling or a compassion or desire.

Council of Nicea (I think that's the name; I may have a detail or two wrong
here, but that doesn't invalidate the entire argument). Third Century AD.
It chose from all the "holy" texts available at the time relating to the
Hebrew cult of Jesus. Many were rejected and nearly all destroyed; many of
these were later found by archeologists and dubbed the "Gnostic Texts."
These texts basically refute the claim of Jesus the Christ's divinity.
Some even claim he didn't die on the cross, but essentially lived happily
ever after with Mary Magdelene in hiding. One or two basically imply that
he was as much a sham artist as any modern televangelist.

Notice the four New Testament books, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. They all
purport to tell the story of the life of the Christ (notice *the* Christ;
all "christ" means is messiah, it's not a proper name). But they all tell
different stories. One claims he was the son of a rich noble family and
was born as would befit that family. The famous story is that we was from
a poor family and born in a manger. Two very different stories, both from
the same Bible.

>Take the modern time. There are groups that are striving to "Strike Down the
>King James Bible" as it currently stands. They have found material
>surrounding King James that says he may have been Gay. As such, those groups
>are really out to make certain that those things influenced by such a
>"corrupted individual" are to be removed.

No comment on this specifically. But the Council that selected the texts
for the New Testament had their own interests in mind and selected their
texts accordingly.

>Now imagine how one or two people who would be in charge of the "original
text
>materials" could have easily altered the course of all generations to come.
>If they would have inwardly desired something to be a certain way, and
desired
>such deeply, it could have "manifested" as a means to change the status quo.

Imagine if the Gnostic Gospel had been included in the Bible, or even in
place of it. Western civilization would not have been what it is today.
That's a big statement, but very likely true.

>I know, you think I've digressed heavily. In truth, I've not.

I'm seeing where you are going.

>Ehran is a character that has been presented to us as someone desiring to see
>"the Status Quo" changed. And he is in a position of immense influence. He
>possesses incredible knowledge of the past, and has no doubt learned to
>recognize various patterns within "the (meta)Human Nature".
>
>But the calendar situation is a proof that he's let things distract him. It
>proves his fallibility. He's made choices in the past where "he and his kind
>knew better", and have hence made choices for others. Including how we
>perceive the past.

Basically, he's imposing his own will and his own truths upon the facts and
upon others. He's the Council of Nicea selecting which letters and stories
get passed down generations and which don't. Nice analogy, and probably
very true in-game.

>Science isn't distracted from truths. It's without distraction, at least in
>it's purest form. But human understanding of that Truth is fallible. It is
>influenced by what is within the very core of what it means to be a living,
>thinking, feeling, being.

True.

>And remember, that Human Nature is an extension, no matter how small it may
>seem, to the rest of the Universe as a whole. To me, if I wanted to let the
>"Grand Scheme of Things Rule", that would mean to me that the Universe isn't
>ready to be understood just yet. And it will let "the Human View of the
>Universe" get all confused for as long as it takes to make them, US, grow up.

Man is the universe attempting to understand itself. That sounds very
philosophical and new-agey, but it's a basic truth if you think about it.

>Oh yeah sure, if people like Erik and Drek and David and Gurth make it this
>far through this posting/reply. then they are probably gonna have some major
>thoughts. And I hope they and everyone else do make it this far.

Here you go!

>PS...question of the Lifetime...what defines Immortality???

Ah! A Pun! Pure immortality would be living without fear of natural
death. Notice I didn't reference time at all. Theoretically it would be
living forever, but I don't want to discuss "forever."

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 3
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:58:02 -0500
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>

> In a message dated 4/18/98 12:38:05 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> nexx@********.NET writes:
>
> > Does anyone else have any theories?
> >
> Oh yeah, and a ton of them. Let's see, we'll go for the most pronounced
-I-
> have.


::bows at the altar of Ereskanti:: I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!

Dude, that was awesome. Its definitely something that gets saved for
future reference.
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:27:37 EDT
YEAH!!!! Thank You Erik!!! I had wondered if anyone was going to read this
through, only one other reply up until now. I feel better... :)

now then....


In a message dated 4/20/98 7:08:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> >Earth could easily be that "3 Billion Plus" that science mentions, and
it
> >could be the "6,000" that you were claiming others had said it to be.
> Please
> >note however on that last group, that time is subjective. Several noted
> >figures within the Bible for instance are incredibly old (Moses, Lazarus,
> >etc.) So old in fact that we have to sit and go "HOW??" Simply
because
we
> >only perceive time as we do now.
>
> This is problematic. How we percieve time is subjective. How we measure
> time is objective however. A year has been, roughly, a year for quite a
> while in Western Civilization. A year in Biblical time is somewhere close
> to a modern year. So according to certain readings of the Bible, the Earth
> is roughly 6000 years old or so. Which doesn't match up with certain
> measurements of various rocks and the like. Science declares the world to
> be roughly 3 Billion years or so. Why the discrepancy? A big part of it
> is the fact that the Old Testament is as much a religious text as it's a
> historical text. The people had no reason to record what came before them;
> that itself was limited by their memories (the proto-Hebrews had probably
> been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years before they started
> recording anything). So the Bible records about 6000 years of history and
> myth. Nothing more, nothing less. (I'm ignoring it's religious
> implications right now, so let's not discuss that)

Okay, won't do so...however, please note that the measure of "years" or
"time
cycles" in the bible has changed greatly. Go find the older Hebrew works and
you'll note references to the only "changing body in the universe" at the
time, being the Moon....the sun was always bright, just hidden sometimes, as
the moon was hidden as well. The Moon "appearance" changes over time, hence
it has/had something that was more readily identifiable and thereby "cyclic"
to record by.

(this is of course ignoring the position of the sun in the sky thing :)

> >Sure, Ehran had tons of information at his fingertips, his command of the
> >magic was no doubt impressive, and still is (they don't give him stats to
> >represent that for instance). BUT, Science is an exacting, without
> >compassion, "Force" as it were. It ultimately lacks a true bias,
hence
the
> >reason that people have so much problem ultimately understanding...we are
a
> >compassionate creature after all.
>
> Urk, I'm not so sure of that. We are a feeling creature, not necessarily
> compassionate. And let's not forget that science (I refuse to capitalize
> it; makes it seem too religious then) is colored and biased by the people
> who perform the science and report it. It is possible for 100 people to do
> the same experiment the same way, with the same result, but have it be
> interpreted 100 different ways. That's pushing it a bit, but you get the
> point.

Sorry for the potential over dramaticism. By "Compassionate" I was referring
to "Emotivational". We react/respond to things according to our inward
developments and influential drives. That is what clouds our judgement.

> Easy. When the first "modern" sentient creatures could measure and record
> the passage of time.
>
> Problem here is though the terminology. Sixth World, I believe, is a Mayan
> term from their calendar. It's their term, not the dragons or elves. To
> the Mayans, it's the Sixth World. It's the Fifth for the Aztecs. "Sixth
> World" is as much a pop culture term as anything else in the world of SR.
> It is entirely possible that this is really the 10,000th World, based on
> Magic cycles. And maybe the dragons know that, or they know they've
> experienced 5000 Ages. But the dragons aren't going to tell us anything.
> So the Sixth World is as good as any other term.

It's Mayan and Inuit (IIRC). The Shinto Beliefs have another numeric value
altogether. Lord only knows what -that- equivalent would be (oops, I made a
pun...)

> >Mana probably has come and gone, risen and fallen, over the vastness of
the
> >world's long history. But Mankind's ability to measure it has only been
so
> >limited. Who/What could have measured time's passing before the coming of
> man
> >could be anyone's guess.
>
> True. And interesting question.

We thought so too. You would probably get a huge kick out the "Reverse
Engineered Timeline" we have come up with.

> >I'm gonna make one or two.
>
> I knew you would.

Erik, don't get cozey here.. :P

> Strong ritual can be a sign of a decadent culture (i.e. not progessing or
> advancing, not "decadent" as in Roman orgies or something). It can
> sometimes also be sign of a young culture, one who's only binding
> characteric is it's rituals. Or it could be a sign of a culture in
> transition; as things change around them, they cling to the things they
> know. An argument could be made for Western Civilization being in that
> middle stage right now. I'd tend to agree with you though.

I've heard another comparison that we are about to make another major Social
Cycle switch. But the "Roman Decadence" could be fun too :)

> I don't like this answer. I don't see the bones of dead people goblinizing
> in the grave; it doesn't make much biological sense. Goblinization was a
> genetic expression that was triggered by an increase of an outside energy,
> aka magic. Essentially dead bones won't transform like that.

Ah, but here is an interesting concept to add to this thought. Bones of the
Dead have a HUGE symbolic importance to a lot "Real World" magical tradition.
Indeed, they also play parts in things for SR as well. Take the "Ancestral
Spirits" from the Cyberpirates book as an example.

Those patterns of the living are held there to some extent...even if not a
"Blood Sample", they are still a "micrometric force". A Force so
small that
it takes an equally proportional force to influence it. (Part of the "Small
Forces" theory of the Universe)

> Nearly every "bone" on public display isn't the real thing. Almost all
the
> real stuff is under lock and key available only for researchers.
>
> It hasn't been pursued in SR because there would have to be all sorts of
> bizarre theories created to reconcile our world with that of the game.
> That's a general error in my opinion. SR is a sort of alternate dimension
> from ours, it's history and whatnot doesn't coincide with ours.

Ah, but it does, but only up to about 1998 or so (that is why this year is
important to FASA's writers). The level of coincidence that happens from here
on out is where the "What IF" scenarios will really start to kick in.

> For the most part, you're probably right. But I don't think they would
> have changed.

To each his own :0

> And what about the buildings? Okay, Thera might have sunk beneath the
> waves and become the legend of Atlantis. But what about all the other
> major, sometimes massive, stone cities? There would *have* to be some
> evidence of them. And there isn't. Why haven't kaers been found?

Actually, have answers yet for those.

Thera...it had one force of interest. The Sphinx. The guardian was created
in the ED timeline, which in fact somewhat overlaps a great deal of the
"Egyptian" timeline for us. Remember the concept of "whoever is in control
defines History?" Think of that and place into effect the other forces that
shaped history. Like the exodi of the Hebrew Tribes and the shifts in power
for the Arab and Ethiopian States.

Other stone structures? Here is an interesting thought. What were the forces
that crafted all that stone? If "Shape Earth" or related magic was used on
the "larger" objects, such as say a foundation mooring for a building, then
when the magic went away, or at least slowly went away, it started to recede
it's alterations upon things. That would have made the keepers/maintenance
forces utilize even more magical force/manpower to maintain their edifices.

Remember, an object that has been effected by magic still retains a small
"shadow" of the magical forces that influenced it. Health Magic is
"Biosymbiotic" in nature, not purely biological. If a "Fashion Spell"
is
wrought upon something, it retains a portion of that spell's aura for a bit of
time. It's a minor transformation. Imagine a "Architectural Fashion" spell
and the aura it would likely leave behind...

OR, what if a way to better commune with Free Spirits and their "Wealth" power
were contrived? Imagine working with a Free Spirit closely, including it in
the designing of a particular object. Gaining feedback from it possibly.
Then, when the designs are done. Have the "Wealth" power become the
"Manufacturing Process".

Combine that with a Karmic Donation of some measure....oooo, neat, instant
Monolith to Pharoah...

> Notice the four New Testament books, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. They all
> purport to tell the story of the life of the Christ (notice *the* Christ;
> all "christ" means is messiah, it's not a proper name). But they all tell
> different stories. One claims he was the son of a rich noble family and
> was born as would befit that family. The famous story is that we was from
> a poor family and born in a manger. Two very different stories, both from
> the same Bible.

I always got a kick out that duality personally.

> No comment on this specifically. But the Council that selected the texts
> for the New Testament had their own interests in mind and selected their
> texts accordingly.

Very, Very, True.

> Imagine if the Gnostic Gospel had been included in the Bible, or even in
> place of it. Western civilization would not have been what it is today.
> That's a big statement, but very likely true.

Very True and Very Big.

> Basically, he's imposing his own will and his own truths upon the facts and
> upon others. He's the Council of Nicea selecting which letters and stories
> get passed down generations and which don't. Nice analogy, and probably
> very true in-game.

I thought so, but I also imagined the "other Immortals" being far more
annoying with this than Ehran, believe it or not. And that doesn't count
stuff like "Buttercup" being thrown into the fray.

> Man is the universe attempting to understand itself. That sounds very
> philosophical and new-agey, but it's a basic truth if you think about it.

More or less, with of course my own personal bias tossed in for the fun of it
:)

> >PS...question of the Lifetime...what defines Immortality???
>
> Ah! A Pun! Pure immortality would be living without fear of natural
> death. Notice I didn't reference time at all. Theoretically it would be
> living forever, but I don't want to discuss "forever."
> Erik J.

Pure Immortality to me is existing without form or thought, being forever, in
the minds of all things at any time of a choosing at random, yet not
consciously. It is the purest abstraction without malice or compassion or
drive of any kind.

PI would have only itself and all those things that are a part of it.

In my book, only the Universe is Purely Immortal, and even that may be up to
debate!

:P
-K
Message no. 5
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:09:52 -0400
At 08:02 PM 4/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>The Bible?
>>
>>I am going to ruffle some feathers here, but in all truth. That book is a
>>collection of works from a lot of sources. A LOT of those sources are very
>>"ethnocentric" and "pathocentric" in their outlook. I am very
pained to see
>>and feel and understand what that means. Do you? It means that so many
>>decisions have been made based upon the beliefs that are merely a given
>person
>>or persons interpretation of a feeling or a compassion or desire.
>
>Council of Nicea (I think that's the name; I may have a detail or two wrong
>here, but that doesn't invalidate the entire argument).

Got it right on the first try. :)

>Third Century AD.
>It chose from all the "holy" texts available at the time relating to the
>Hebrew cult of Jesus. Many were rejected and nearly all destroyed; many of
>these were later found by archeologists and dubbed the "Gnostic Texts."

A lot of the Gnostic texts were not even considered by the Council, as it
was made up not of people with Gnostic leanings, but those who were working
on forming a catholic (note the small 'c', their term for a unified and
agreeing) Christian Church. They were trying to iron out the differences
of doctrine and practice that they knew existed within the greater,
unorganized and spread-out Christian community. The Gnostics were even
more unorganized, as they were not a uniform group; Gnostic cults is a term
for a wide variety of very small religions, each with their own individual
takes on Christ, and with large doses of influence from Greek philosophy
and other religions.

>These texts basically refute the claim of Jesus the Christ's divinity.
>Some even claim he didn't die on the cross, but essentially lived happily
>ever after with Mary Magdelene in hiding. One or two basically imply that
>he was as much a sham artist as any modern televangelist.

Some of them also merely disagreed with the 'orthodoxy' on the nature of
Christ and his role in the formation of the church, etc. Some claimed he
was not really a mortal man, or that he endorsed other practices and ideals
than the modern Bible espouses.

(snip)

>No comment on this specifically. But the Council that selected the texts
>for the New Testament had their own interests in mind and selected their
>texts accordingly.

Exactly. And the texts that were included (there were non-Gnostic
contenders that fell by the wayside at the Council, for instance) were
included because of the political maneuvering at the Council. There had
been a couple previous attempts to come up with a common set of canonical
texts, but the Nicea version was the one that finally 'took'.

>Imagine if the Gnostic Gospel had been included in the Bible, or even in
>place of it. Western civilization would not have been what it is today.
>That's a big statement, but very likely true.

But the Gnostic sects were not organized, and were founded (for the most
part) much more on the idea of a personal approach to religion than an
organized structure. That's why the orthodox church that was forming won
out, and the Gnostics disappeared.

Okay, enough. Sorry, I just like the subject enough to have taken a class
specifically on it. :)

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:41:16 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 9:07:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> ::bows at the altar of Ereskanti:: I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!
>
> Dude, that was awesome. Its definitely something that gets saved for
> future reference.
>
WAIT!!! STOP!!! Don't worship me really...don't...donations??? Well, okay,
go ahead...here's my address

+++++ Insert : HomePlace.doc


Make it in big bills though...I LIKE BIG BILLS!!!

-K (who just couldn't resist...)
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:20:14 -0400
At 11:27 PM 4/20/98 EDT, you wrote:
>YEAH!!!! Thank You Erik!!! I had wondered if anyone was going to read
this
>through, only one other reply up until now. I feel better... :)

Glad to know I'm wanted, loved and adored by the masses...now I know what
it must feel like to be a Spice Girl..."Ladies & Gentleman, the newest
member of the band, the only Spice Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd
goes wild!>

;-)

Hey, for the kind of money they're making (at least for the record label)
I'd make really crappy music and wear trashy clothes too.

>> Strong ritual can be a sign of a decadent culture (i.e. not progessing or
>> advancing, not "decadent" as in Roman orgies or something). It can
>> sometimes also be sign of a young culture, one who's only binding
>> characteric is it's rituals. Or it could be a sign of a culture in
>> transition; as things change around them, they cling to the things they
>> know. An argument could be made for Western Civilization being in that
>> middle stage right now. I'd tend to agree with you though.
>
>I've heard another comparison that we are about to make another major Social
>Cycle switch. But the "Roman Decadence" could be fun too :)

I've heard similar things. I can't recall the name of the particular
theory, but there's a means of analyzing history by way of graphical line
charts. Each major achievement/disaster is a spike on the line graph, five
spikes within each meta spike, five meta spikes making up a cycle.
According to this theory, we're due for some sort of global shake-up
anytime now. Could be a positive change or a negative change, hard to
predict.

But I've also heard the same statements about a change within American
Culture also. We do live in interesting times, not just on this side of
the pond either.

>Ah, but here is an interesting concept to add to this thought. Bones of the
>Dead have a HUGE symbolic importance to a lot "Real World" magical
tradition.
>Indeed, they also play parts in things for SR as well. Take the "Ancestral
>Spirits" from the Cyberpirates book as an example.

They may be important, but that really has no relevance to if and how the
bones might change.

>Those patterns of the living are held there to some extent...even if not a
>"Blood Sample", they are still a "micrometric force". A Force so
small that
>it takes an equally proportional force to influence it. (Part of the "Small
>Forces" theory of the Universe)

Yes, even million year old bones would have some tiny residue left of their
aura, but it would be so infitesmally small it is essentially non-existent.
Life force and energy, or magic, is needed to power an aura. After those
forces are gone, there will be echoes of those forces, but only echoes, not
enough to affect changes on their own.

>Ah, but it does, but only up to about 1998 or so (that is why this year is
>important to FASA's writers). The level of coincidence that happens from
here
>on out is where the "What IF" scenarios will really start to kick in.

Interesting.

>> And what about the buildings? Okay, Thera might have sunk beneath the
>> waves and become the legend of Atlantis. But what about all the other
>> major, sometimes massive, stone cities? There would *have* to be some
>> evidence of them. And there isn't. Why haven't kaers been found?
>
>Actually, have answers yet for those.
>
>Thera...it had one force of interest. The Sphinx. The guardian was created
>in the ED timeline, which in fact somewhat overlaps a great deal of the
>"Egyptian" timeline for us. Remember the concept of "whoever is in
control
>defines History?" Think of that and place into effect the other forces that
>shaped history. Like the exodi of the Hebrew Tribes and the shifts in power
>for the Arab and Ethiopian States.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. There exists in ED an
egyptian like culture based along where Egypt is now. It's in the Thera
sourcebook I believe. I think that, and the other cultures listed in that
book, were a blatant attempt to tie ED with our world, and therefor SR.
Complete crap.

>Other stone structures? Here is an interesting thought. What were the
forces
>that crafted all that stone? If "Shape Earth" or related magic was used on
>the "larger" objects, such as say a foundation mooring for a building, then
>when the magic went away, or at least slowly went away, it started to recede
>it's alterations upon things. That would have made the keepers/maintenance
>forces utilize even more magical force/manpower to maintain their edifices.

If magic was used to create/maintain a building, such as apparently many of
the Theran structures, then it is entirely possible that without magic
these buildings would be turned to rubble. But we can find evidence of
buildings built in Mesopotamia from f*ckin' clay, which isn't a terribly
durable building material. Anything built of stone should have left some
sort of footprint these last 5000 to 8000 years.

>> Basically, he's imposing his own will and his own truths upon the facts
and
>> upon others. He's the Council of Nicea selecting which letters and
stories
>> get passed down generations and which don't. Nice analogy, and probably
>> very true in-game.
>
>I thought so, but I also imagined the "other Immortals" being far more
>annoying with this than Ehran, believe it or not. And that doesn't count
>stuff like "Buttercup" being thrown into the fray.

Oh, I imagine that Ehran isn't the only one sitting on the SR Council of
Nicea.

>Pure Immortality to me is existing without form or thought, being forever, in
>the minds of all things at any time of a choosing at random, yet not
>consciously. It is the purest abstraction without malice or compassion or
>drive of any kind.

Hmmmm...sort of like Nirvana, eh? That would fit also, but it still fits
my definition if you stretch it. There must be a sentience, or life force,
that cannot naturally die; it just doesn't have a body to inhabit.

Erik J.

PS: Here's an interesting question to those following this topic; what
happened at the transition from 4th age to 5th? We know what happened as
the world entered the 6th, with goblinization and magic and the like; what
happens when your neighbor the troll suddenly becomes human? Or the magic
you depended on to light your house at night is gone? Or those fantastic
warrior abilities you count on to keep you alive are gone and you aren't an
adept any more, just a common warrior?

That would an interesting exercise in sociology and psychology.
Message no. 8
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:21:57 -0400
At 12:09 AM 4/21/98 -0400, you wrote:

>But the Gnostic sects were not organized, and were founded (for the most
>part) much more on the idea of a personal approach to religion than an
>organized structure. That's why the orthodox church that was forming won
>out, and the Gnostics disappeared.

>Okay, enough. Sorry, I just like the subject enough to have taken a class
>specifically on it. :)
>
>losthalo
>

Fascinating. I may ask you questions/opinions regarding the gnostics from
time to time then. Since I found out about them, I've thought they were
fascinating.

But what it really reinforces for us, and for the SR world, is that there
is a lot of information out there that, for whatever reason, we simply
aren't aware of.

But that's another rant for another day, another time, another list.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:22:43 EST
> I've heard similar things. I can't recall the name of the
> particular theory, but there's a means of analyzing history by way
> of graphical line charts. Each major achievement/disaster is a
> spike on the line graph, five spikes within each meta spike, five
> meta spikes making up a cycle. According to this theory, we're due
> for some sort of global shake-up anytime now. Could be a positive
> change or a negative change, hard to predict.

This sounds fascinating, reminiscent of James Blish's _Cities in
Flight_. Does anyone know where I can did up this report?

-=SwiftOne=-
You'll be the first against the wall
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:15:26 -0400
At 03:22 PM 4/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>> I've heard similar things. I can't recall the name of the
>> particular theory, but there's a means of analyzing history by way
>> of graphical line charts. Each major achievement/disaster is a
>> spike on the line graph, five spikes within each meta spike, five
>> meta spikes making up a cycle. According to this theory, we're due
>> for some sort of global shake-up anytime now. Could be a positive
>> change or a negative change, hard to predict.
>
>This sounds fascinating, reminiscent of James Blish's _Cities in
>Flight_. Does anyone know where I can did up this report?

What's this "Cities in Flight" thing?

Anyway, I'll dig up the hand-out I have on this theory tonight if I can
remember. I seem to recall trying to dig up additional info on the concept
at the local library and they thought I was on the crack rock. Your local
major university may have more though.

I had this Humanities class back in college that was devoted to all sorts
of odd things like this; we spent a few weeks on Chaos theory, a week on
the Anasazi Indians, a class session or two on the implications of the
Internet, a few more weeks on astronomy and things like dark stars and
black holes, and a full class session on the above concept of history.

For our midterm we could take a traditional style test, write an essay and
turn it in in class on one of the discussed topics, or write a short story.
The final was similar, though there was a presentation also involved.

Believe it or not, some people actually opted for the traditional multiple
choice test. They were in the wrong damn class. I wrote a short story and
did an essay on cyberpunk myself.

One of the best damn classes I ever took during my five years at the
University of Arizona. The whole purpose of it was to get the students to
think, not just regurgitate facts. This odd history concept wasn't taught
per se, it was presented as an alternate method of thinking about
traditional linear history. Take it or leave, but give it some thought

There was another Humanities class on creativity that did finger painting
and poetry and stuff that was the same basic concept, of getting the
students to think "outside the box." I took that class also. ;-)

Erik J.

"Um, no officer, we're writing and drawing in chalk on the university walls
for a class of ours, it's Humanities 119, honest! Check the catalog!"
Message no. 11
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:28:20 +0100
>
>Glad to know I'm wanted, loved and adored by the masses...now I know what
>it must feel like to be a Spice Girl..."Ladies & Gentleman, the newest
>member of the band, the only Spice Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd
>goes wild!>
>
>;-)
>

!!!!!!!!!??? Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

>Hey, for the kind of money they're making (at least for the record label)
>I'd make really crappy music and wear trashy clothes too.
>

>>Ah, but here is an interesting concept to add to this thought. Bones of
the
>>Dead have a HUGE symbolic importance to a lot "Real World" magical
tradition.
>>Indeed, they also play parts in things for SR as well. Take the
"Ancestral
>>Spirits" from the Cyberpirates book as an example.
>
>They may be important, but that really has no relevance to if and how the
>bones might change.
>
>>Those patterns of the living are held there to some extent...even if not a
>>"Blood Sample", they are still a "micrometric force". A Force
so small
that
>>it takes an equally proportional force to influence it. (Part of the
"Small
>>Forces" theory of the Universe)
>
>Yes, even million year old bones would have some tiny residue left of their
>aura, but it would be so infitesmally small it is essentially non-existent.
> Life force and energy, or magic, is needed to power an aura. After those
>forces are gone, there will be echoes of those forces, but only echoes, not
>enough to affect changes on their own.
>

On a slightly different timescale I know, but if ritual bones were actually
continuously used, they would probably maintain some kind of auric residue
no matter what kind of physical treatment occured. Doesnt apply to those
buried in the ground for millenia of course.

>>Ah, but it does, but only up to about 1998 or so (that is why this year is
>>important to FASA's writers). The level of coincidence that happens from
>here
>>on out is where the "What IF" scenarios will really start to kick in.
>
>Interesting.
>

Point of SR3 probably. Watch for all the little changes written into the
history concerning the last few years.

>>> And what about the buildings? Okay, Thera might have sunk beneath the
>>> waves and become the legend of Atlantis. But what about all the other
>>> major, sometimes massive, stone cities? There would *have* to be some
>>> evidence of them. And there isn't. Why haven't kaers been found?
>>
>>Actually, have answers yet for those.
>>
>>Thera...it had one force of interest. The Sphinx. The guardian was
created
>>in the ED timeline, which in fact somewhat overlaps a great deal of the
>>"Egyptian" timeline for us. Remember the concept of "whoever is in
control
>>defines History?" Think of that and place into effect the other forces
that
>>shaped history. Like the exodi of the Hebrew Tribes and the shifts in
power
>>for the Arab and Ethiopian States.
>
>I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. There exists in ED an
>egyptian like culture based along where Egypt is now. It's in the Thera
>sourcebook I believe. I think that, and the other cultures listed in that
>book, were a blatant attempt to tie ED with our world, and therefor SR.
>Complete crap.
>
>>Other stone structures? Here is an interesting thought. What were the
>forces
>>that crafted all that stone? If "Shape Earth" or related magic was used
on
>>the "larger" objects, such as say a foundation mooring for a building,
then
>>when the magic went away, or at least slowly went away, it started to
recede
>>it's alterations upon things. That would have made the
keepers/maintenance
>>forces utilize even more magical force/manpower to maintain their
edifices.
>
>If magic was used to create/maintain a building, such as apparently many of
>the Theran structures, then it is entirely possible that without magic
>these buildings would be turned to rubble. But we can find evidence of
>buildings built in Mesopotamia from f*ckin' clay, which isn't a terribly
>durable building material. Anything built of stone should have left some
>sort of footprint these last 5000 to 8000 years.
>
>>> Basically, he's imposing his own will and his own truths upon the facts
>and
>>> upon others. He's the Council of Nicea selecting which letters and
>stories
>>> get passed down generations and which don't. Nice analogy, and
probably
>>> very true in-game.
>>
>>I thought so, but I also imagined the "other Immortals" being far more
>>annoying with this than Ehran, believe it or not. And that doesn't count
>>stuff like "Buttercup" being thrown into the fray.
>
>Oh, I imagine that Ehran isn't the only one sitting on the SR Council of
>Nicea.
>
>>Pure Immortality to me is existing without form or thought, being forever,
in
>>the minds of all things at any time of a choosing at random, yet not
>>consciously. It is the purest abstraction without malice or compassion or
>>drive of any kind.
>
>Hmmmm...sort of like Nirvana, eh? That would fit also, but it still fits
>my definition if you stretch it. There must be a sentience, or life force,
>that cannot naturally die; it just doesn't have a body to inhabit.
>
>Erik J.
>
>PS: Here's an interesting question to those following this topic; what
>happened at the transition from 4th age to 5th? We know what happened as
>the world entered the 6th, with goblinization and magic and the like; what
>happens when your neighbor the troll suddenly becomes human? Or the magic
>you depended on to light your house at night is gone? Or those fantastic
>warrior abilities you count on to keep you alive are gone and you aren't an
>adept any more, just a common warrior?
>
>That would an interesting exercise in sociology and psychology.
>

From 'Worlds Without End' I think, "They only need a certain level of mana
to come through, not to survive" ie, the Horrors. Also, the IE's seemed to
be able to do some magic in the down-cycle, though not much. So the troll
would probably stay a troll, but have lots of little humies rather than more
trolls.

Mark
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:10:48 EDT
In a message dated 4/21/98 1:25:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> If magic was used to create/maintain a building, such as apparently many of
> the Theran structures, then it is entirely possible that without magic
> these buildings would be turned to rubble. But we can find evidence of
> buildings built in Mesopotamia from f*ckin' clay, which isn't a terribly
> durable building material. Anything built of stone should have left some
> sort of footprint these last 5000 to 8000 years.

I agree, there should have been something...anyone for coming up with a "Fix
Ancient Building Spell" and go for a ritual...just to see what would
happen???

> PS: Here's an interesting question to those following this topic; what
> happened at the transition from 4th age to 5th? We know what happened as
> the world entered the 6th, with goblinization and magic and the like; what
> happens when your neighbor the troll suddenly becomes human? Or the magic
> you depended on to light your house at night is gone? Or those fantastic
> warrior abilities you count on to keep you alive are gone and you aren't an
> adept any more, just a common warrior?

Oh yeah, I can see the problems here...

> That would an interesting exercise in sociology and psychology.

And not to mention a major force of change...for some reason, I see it as the
change between the Middle and Upper Kingdoms of Egypt...

-K
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:11:06 +0000
> >This sounds fascinating, reminiscent of James Blish's _Cities in
> >Flight_. Does anyone know where I can did up this report?
>
> What's this "Cities in Flight" thing?

Sci-Fi author James Blish wrote a series of stories collectively
called _Cities In flight_ (The concept involves creating an
anti-gravity sphere, in this case around entire cities and flying
them off into space.) It turns out he based the entire series off of
some guys theory that every civilization goes through a certain
number of phases that have certain identifying features. He uses the
pyramids as an example of one phase, which is a decline in power but
is characterized by useless but huge artifacts in tribute to it's
power.

Anyway, in passing through these phases, the civilization (perhaps
"era" would be a better word...) creates the civilization that will
usurp it. (creates idealogically, not necessarily the populace).

I can dig up names and detail if you want it, this is all from
memory.

> Anyway, I'll dig up the hand-out I have on this theory tonight if I can
> remember. I seem to recall trying to dig up additional info on the concept
> at the local library and they thought I was on the crack rock. Your local
> major university may have more though.

Sounds good, but going to the library looking for "some report" might
take a while :)

> There was another Humanities class on creativity that did finger painting
> and poetry and stuff that was the same basic concept, of getting the
> students to think "outside the box." I took that class also. ;-)

I'd fail fingerpainting, but I can't even see the box from here :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about The Age of Earth (Longish ;)(Combine's with Shaper DNA btw), you may also be interested in:

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