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From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Thu, 24 Sep 1998 17:02:35 -0400

Message no. 1 At 04:12 PM 9/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
> Where would "Woodworking" fit in? If you're saying it's an
>"Active Skill" because it involves using your hands then I suppose that
>BBB3 is wrong but....... perhaps that litmus test isn't perfect either.
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

There's a signifigant difference between understanding the theories of a
trade and being able to perform the trade.

In saying "trade" I'm referring to working with one's hands. IE - Music
skills, art skills, carpentry, etc...

I'm perfectly capable of discussing technique and understanding how someone
who can paint would go about mixing the colors, choosing a medium and
applying proper brush-strokes, but I couldn't paint my way out of a paper=
bag.

"Trade" skills are one part knowledge and one part tactile experience. In
short, they ride the fence and could go either way depending on how you use
them.

Anyone who Paints uses a mix of Painting(Background) [-- which is not
Painting(History)] and Painting(Active).

You really can't practice the active skill without the background skill.
Without the background skill the active skill would produce modern art --
just textures, but no picture {in the case of sculpture as well; form, but
it will resemple nothing "real"}. However using just the background skill
makes you a poser like me :).

I'd assume most trade skills are like that. [Remember, we were talking
about Music Skills.]

The problem comes in when you try to apply SR3 rules to that. You now have
2 skills where previously only one existed. When all's said and done, the
true artiste must spend all his karma upkeeping vs. his field's SOTA and
advancing multiple skills for one end purpose. His "art" (be it Painting,
Woodworking, Sculpture, or Playing the Hammer Dulcimer).

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:57:22 -0400

Message no. 2 On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Shaun Gilroy wrote:

<big snip>
->The problem comes in when you try to apply SR3 rules to that. You now have
->2 skills where previously only one existed. When all's said and done, the
->true artiste must spend all his karma upkeeping vs. his field's SOTA and
->advancing multiple skills for one end purpose. His "art" (be it Painting,
->Woodworking, Sculpture, or Playing the Hammer Dulcimer).

Which, IMO, makes about as much sense as a hamster using a hair
dryer. I can sing, pretty well I've been told, but I don't practice or
haven't spent time or "spent karma" to upkeep it. How the hell can Music
or Art fall victim to SOTA? If it did, the _Mona LIsa_ would be worthless
by now. The tools used in art & music haven't changed (more have been
added but the basics are still there) since the concepts were invented.
We still use kilns in pottery, paints & paint brushes & canvas in
painting, instruments from drums & chimes to synthlinks in Music, I don't
think you NEED SOTA in any of these categories. If you're using the same
brush to paint with you were using last month, and you kept it in good
condition, it'll work just as well, regardless of whether or not someone
came out with a new brush.
With regards to Musical and Artistic skills being both Active &
Knowledge skills, sounds more like unneccessary bookkeeping to me.
They're not useful in any form of conflict (which, if you notice, almost
ALL Active skills are useful almost exclusively in conflicts) unless
you're doing a 'dueling banjos' kind of thing. It doesn't really matter
how slow you are, either. So with skills like guitar, painting, etc.
where you have to paint or strum (activity), you can do it slowly, so
having a low Quickness wouldn't matter. As long as you can remember the
chords and remember where to put your fingers you can play an instrument
(may not be real fancy, but you can play). As long as you remember which
colors are best where you can paint slowly and no one (except the people
who've already bought the painting) will really care. With the original
'Woodworking' skill... since time is not a major factor, doesn't really
matter how good you are at a knife, as long as you can envision what the
wood wants to look like (or what you want it to look like) you will carve
just as well as someone with an 8 Quickness if you only have a 1.
My definition of an active skill: If it requires activity, is
generally resisted and is primarily useful only in conflict situations,
it's an active skill. Otherwise, it's a knowledge skill.
Oh, and with regards to skillwires, you can probably slot a
skillsoft about singing, but you wouldn't be as passionate as a live
singer. Since you're using 'canned skill' you'd be making 'canned music'.
Who'd want to make a singing skillsoft anyway? I suppose if the street
sammy's singing was THAT bad, the rest of the runners would leave before
they bought him a skillsoft for it. And you couldn't use it in live
performances, because you may know HOW to sing, you can't know WHY to sing
and audiences pick up on that. It is the ability to express emotions
through rythmic voice that gives singing it's power, not pure science or
math.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:59:33 -0400

Message no. 3 Fixer wrote:
> My definition of an active skill: If it requires activity, is
> generally resisted and is primarily useful only in conflict situations,
> it's an active skill. Otherwise, it's a knowledge skill.
>
So, Athletics, Diving, Aura Reading, Demolitions, Computer, Electronics,
Biotech, Build/Repair, Etiquette, Instruction, Interrogation,
Intimidation, Leadership, Negotiation, Conjuring, Sorcery, Bike, Car,
Hovercraft, Motorboat, Ship, Sailboat, * Aircraft and Submarine would
no longer be active skills? That's the majority of the skill list!

Changing your definition to "activity OR resisted OR conflict" fits the
skill list much better, but I'd probably simplify it to "If a brain in
a jar can do it, it's not active". :-)

James Ojaste

From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:04:20 -0400

Message no. 4 At 07:57 AM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
<snip!>
> How the hell can Music
>or Art fall victim to SOTA? If it did, the _Mona LIsa_ would be worthless
>by now. The tools used in art & music haven't changed (more have been
>added but the basics are still there) since the concepts were invented.
>We still use kilns in pottery, paints & paint brushes & canvas in
>painting, instruments from drums & chimes to synthlinks in Music, I don't
>think you NEED SOTA in any of these categories. If you're using the same
>brush to paint with you were using last month, and you kept it in good
>condition, it'll work just as well, regardless of whether or not someone
>came out with a new brush.

What would you rate your singing skill at? How often do you use it? What
would happen to your ability to sing if you didn't do it for, say, six=
months?

It all depends on how good you are, but if you stop painting painting, or
singing on a regular/semi-regular basis, your abilities degrade fast. Its
not SOTA, per se, but the SOTA rules are a good way of checking for
degradation and dealing with keeping your abilities current. And, yes,
there are breakthroughs in the field of Art that change how artists do
things. They don't happen as often as in the Electronics/Computer
industry, but they do happen.

> With regards to Musical and Artistic skills being both Active &
>Knowledge skills, sounds more like unneccessary bookkeeping to me.

I agree. It all depends on the level of depth that will satisy your game.
I could just as easily say that skills that are considered "hobby" skills
are extra book-keeping. But they're what really bring life to the mess of
stats that your character consists of.

>They're not useful in any form of conflict (which, if you notice, almost
>ALL Active skills are useful almost exclusively in conflicts) unless
>you're doing a 'dueling banjos' kind of thing.

Is that such a silly thing for a character to be interested in? Most
players won't do it. But most players only take skills that they think the
GM will reward them for using (like letting them live :).

>It doesn't really matter
>how slow you are, either. So with skills like guitar, painting, etc.
>where you have to paint or strum (activity), you can do it slowly, so
>having a low Quickness wouldn't matter.

Quickness is a package deal. It covers both speed and manual dexterity.
Moreso dexterity because you have a Reaction attribute to account for speed.

>As long as you can remember the
>chords and remember where to put your fingers you can play an instrument
>(may not be real fancy, but you can play).

I was discussing meta-rules. Rules for people wh cared how fancy their
character could play. Rules for players that wanted to play a Shadowrunner
that aspired to the higher levels of their "art." Hey, its not practical,
but in RL you have to become a hermit and spend a lot of time developing
your abilities to become a "master" of something like that.

> As long as you remember which
>colors are best where you can paint slowly and no one (except the people
>who've already bought the painting) will really care. With the original
>'Woodworking' skill... since time is not a major factor, doesn't really
>matter how good you are at a knife, as long as you can envision what the
>wood wants to look like (or what you want it to look like) you will carve
>just as well as someone with an 8 Quickness if you only have a 1.

Oh, contrare. I can sculpt stone, and I can sculpt clay, but I can't carve
wood worth drek. Why? Is it because I can't envision the form in a chunk
of wood? No. I can't wield a carving knife even though I know how to=
shape.

It has nothing to do with my Quickness(well, okay, that's debatable :), its
because I don't have a woodworking active skill to hone the usage of my
Quickness.

> My definition of an active skill: If it requires activity, is
>generally resisted and is primarily useful only in conflict situations,
>it's an active skill. Otherwise, it's a knowledge skill.

Once again, its practical that it work this way if that's all the depth you
(or the player) think the player needs. I was submitting ideas for going
deeper. Asher Lev level art.

> Oh, and with regards to skillwires, you can probably slot a
>skillsoft about singing, but you wouldn't be as passionate as a live
>singer. Since you're using 'canned skill' you'd be making 'canned music'.
>Who'd want to make a singing skillsoft anyway? I suppose if the street
>sammy's singing was THAT bad, the rest of the runners would leave before
>they bought him a skillsoft for it. And you couldn't use it in live
>performances, because you may know HOW to sing, you can't know WHY to sing
>and audiences pick up on that. It is the ability to express emotions
>through rythmic voice that gives singing it's power, not pure science or
>math.
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

Agreed. Its Expression that makes art meaningful. But everyone expresses
differently and NO artist calls on only one skill to make a composition or
the great masterpiece.

When I practice Photography as an art form, I use first
Compostition(Background) to determine whether the shot is worthwhile, Then
Photography(Active) to be able to capture the shot the way I see it. Then
I take the film to the darkroom(Film Shop) and use Film Development(Active)
[or would that be Photography(BR)? :/ ] to develop the film and Film
Development(Effects) to put things in or emphasize the part of the picture
that I wanted to represent. Then I use Frames(matting) and Frames(active)
to make the print presentable.

Artisitic photography is a comparatively "instant gratification" medium in
this respect because most of the other art forms will require a LOT more
time and many more skills.

And I'm not a master of Photography. Someone who gets shows in an art
gallery will most definitely have more skills and specializations that they
bring to the mix.

Sure its extra book-keeping and this is why a good artist spends all his
time at his art. He can't afford his skills to get rusty -- honestly, it
takes less than tha few weeks before you're behind.

I brought up this point because Musical skills aren't that cut and dry
either, unless you aren't really interested in becoming really good
(professional quality).

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:19:52 -0400

Message no. 5 On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

->Fixer wrote:
->> My definition of an active skill: If it requires activity, is
->> generally resisted and is primarily useful only in conflict situations,
->> it's an active skill. Otherwise, it's a knowledge skill.

I'll take them individually since you so kindly decided to give
them to me in that way.

->So, Athletics

It requires activity and is primarily useful when running (away),
jumping (away) or just plain getting (away) from someone else. Note I
said "generally resisted".

->Diving

Same reasoning as Athletics. It is definitely active but you only
generally roll dice if something stressful (i.e. conflict of some sort) is
going on.

->Aura Reading

Should be Knowledge IMO, yes. Knowing, from past experience, what
the 'colors' in a person's aura stand for.

->Demolitions

Resisted by the Demolitions skill of the guy trying to disarm it.
Active and used in conflict situations (unless you just like building
bombs).

->Computer

Decking is resisted, the icon is active (which is the
consciousness of the decker), and is used for cybercombat.

->Electronics

Should be Knowledge, IMO. Use Electronics for designing
components and knowing how to take things apart. This'd also help get
solve of the "what do I use to build a cyberdeck" debate.

->Biotech

Active, not resisted (I did say generally), but useful to patch up
buddies in conflict situations.

->Build/Repair

Building and repairing things is more what you KNOW than how
quick/strong you are with your hands. Should be Knowledge.

->Etiquette

Etiquette is KNOWING what to say and when to say it, but I think
the actual application of Etiquette in Shadowrun is to pleasantly get
information out of people. I would like to place it under Knowledge
rather than Active, though. It can then be more specific like "Street
Etiquette" or "Corporate Etiquette" or "Large men named Sven
Etiquette".

->Instruction

Besides "because FASA said so", why is this an Active skill?

->Interrogation

Interrogation is resisted, and is automatically considered a
"conflict" because if you're interrogating your target obviously doesn't
WANT to give up what you're asking for.

->Intimidation

Resisted and is used in conflicts.

->Leadership

Resisted ("why should we follow you?" and because of which
automatically is resolved in conflict (you must explain WHY they should
follow you or they're not going to do it and might get ticked at you).

->Negotiation

Resisted & conflict (if you were in agreement, you wouldn't be
negotiating).

->Conjuring

Conjuring requires the mage or shaman to be active and the spirit
is not usually willing which means the spirit will be resisting (in the
form of Drain).

->Sorcery

This is generally resisted and does take effort on the part of the
mage to use (active), it is also used (in my games at least) because of a
conflict 90% of the time.

->Bike

It's requires activity, and I don't know about all of you but the
only time I have players roll dice is if they're trying to do something
unusual, like evading, dodging traffic, performing special maneuvers, etc.
Some of these tasks are resisted and some are used in conflict situations
so that's how I see it.

->Car, Hovercraft, Motorboat, Ship, Sailboat, * Aircraft and Submarine

See Bike.

->no longer be active skills? That's the majority of the skill list!

Actually, of the 22 skills you offered, only 5 I classified as
"should be Knowledge Skills".

->Changing your definition to "activity OR resisted OR conflict" fits the
->skill list much better, but I'd probably simplify it to "If a brain in
->a jar can do it, it's not active". :-)

Provided the "Brain in a Jar" could communicate, all the social
skills plus computer would be Knowledge then.
Something along the lines of:

Active (3 out of 4):
1. Requiring some physical effort.
2. Is generally used (dice are actually rolled) in combat or stressful
situations.
3. Is actively resisted or may be actively resisted.
4. Use of the skill alone may cause direct damage to the user.

Knowledge:
1. Does not qualify for Active Status.

Better set of definitions?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:38:55 -0400

Message no. 6 On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Shaun Gilroy wrote:

->At 07:57 AM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
-><snip!>
->> How the hell can Music
->>or Art fall victim to SOTA? If it did, the _Mona LIsa_ would be worthless
->>by now. The tools used in art & music haven't changed (more have been
->>added but the basics are still there) since the concepts were invented.
->>We still use kilns in pottery, paints & paint brushes & canvas in
->>painting, instruments from drums & chimes to synthlinks in Music, I don't
->>think you NEED SOTA in any of these categories. If you're using the same
->>brush to paint with you were using last month, and you kept it in good
->>condition, it'll work just as well, regardless of whether or not someone
->>came out with a new brush.
->
->What would you rate your singing skill at? How often do you use it? What
->would happen to your ability to sing if you didn't do it for, say, six months?

Rating? About a 3. How often? Uhm... I can't remember when I
used it really. After making the post I tested out the voice again and
folks say I did fine. I did a duet with a singer friend of mine and we
sounded fine too. I don't believe singing will deteriorate significantly
with time. Especially not at the rate of SOTA.

->It all depends on how good you are, but if you stop painting painting, or
->singing on a regular/semi-regular basis, your abilities degrade fast. Its
->not SOTA, per se, but the SOTA rules are a good way of checking for
->degradation and dealing with keeping your abilities current. And, yes,
->there are breakthroughs in the field of Art that change how artists do
->things. They don't happen as often as in the Electronics/Computer
->industry, but they do happen.

<sarcasm>
New paintbrush invented. Whooppee. I'm certain all the older
artists must now change or they'll fall behind and their art will be
considered less valuable. <chunks Picasso's works out the window>
</sarcasm>

<snip>
->>They're not useful in any form of conflict (which, if you notice, almost
->>ALL Active skills are useful almost exclusively in conflicts) unless
->>you're doing a 'dueling banjos' kind of thing.
->
->Is that such a silly thing for a character to be interested in? Most
->players won't do it. But most players only take skills that they think the
->GM will reward them for using (like letting them live :).

You missed my point. Unlike nearly all the Active skills, playing
an instrument is not really classified as a "useful" skill, which is where
most Knowledge skills are. They are not useless skills, the are simply
useful in their own environment, and in that environment only.

->>It doesn't really matter
->>how slow you are, either. So with skills like guitar, painting, etc.
->>where you have to paint or strum (activity), you can do it slowly, so
->>having a low Quickness wouldn't matter.
->
->Quickness is a package deal. It covers both speed and manual dexterity.
->Moreso dexterity because you have a Reaction attribute to account for speed.

Yes, well, no matter how slow you are, if you are of equal skill
to another, you will still perform the task as well or at least have as
easy of a time learning it as someone of equal intelligence.

<snip>
->> As long as you remember which
->>colors are best where you can paint slowly and no one (except the people
->>who've already bought the painting) will really care. With the original
->>'Woodworking' skill... since time is not a major factor, doesn't really
->>matter how good you are at a knife, as long as you can envision what the
->>wood wants to look like (or what you want it to look like) you will carve
->>just as well as someone with an 8 Quickness if you only have a 1.
->
->Oh, contrare. I can sculpt stone, and I can sculpt clay, but I can't carve
->wood worth drek. Why? Is it because I can't envision the form in a chunk
->of wood? No. I can't wield a carving knife even though I know how to shape.

So that means you have sculpting as a skill and not woodworking.
Silly. ]:-)

->It has nothing to do with my Quickness(well, okay, that's debatable :), its
->because I don't have a woodworking active skill to hone the usage of my
->Quickness.

So..... you're using your Quickness alone to sculpt? I would
think it would require a skill.

->> Oh, and with regards to skillwires, you can probably slot a
->>skillsoft about singing, but you wouldn't be as passionate as a live
->>singer. Since you're using 'canned skill' you'd be making 'canned music'.
->>Who'd want to make a singing skillsoft anyway? I suppose if the street
->>sammy's singing was THAT bad, the rest of the runners would leave before
->>they bought him a skillsoft for it. And you couldn't use it in live
->>performances, because you may know HOW to sing, you can't know WHY to sing
->>and audiences pick up on that. It is the ability to express emotions
->>through rythmic voice that gives singing it's power, not pure science or
->>math.
->
->Agreed. Its Expression that makes art meaningful. But everyone expresses
->differently and NO artist calls on only one skill to make a composition or
->the great masterpiece.
->
->When I practice Photography as an art form, I use first
->Compostition(Background) to determine whether the shot is worthwhile, Then
->Photography(Active) to be able to capture the shot the way I see it. Then
->I take the film to the darkroom(Film Shop) and use Film Development(Active)
->[or would that be Photography(BR)? :/ ] to develop the film and Film
->Development(Effects) to put things in or emphasize the part of the picture
->that I wanted to represent. Then I use Frames(matting) and Frames(active)
->to make the print presentable.

Damn, I would have just made it easy and just made it Photography.
Make one roll for impact and be done with it. If you rolled crummy you
messed something up. If you rolled well it was (with 1 die) luck or (with
8 dice) skill. While that one PC is rolling all those extraneous skills,
the rest are breaking into that character's house to kill him for taking
up game time.

->I brought up this point because Musical skills aren't that cut and dry
->either, unless you aren't really interested in becoming really good
->(professional quality).

So I suppose that means that unless you can't become a
professional painter without spending every waking moment (the equivalent
of Karma) into all the associated skills (Paint Mixing, canvas
preperation, frame building, etc.).... sheesh. My grandmother (who is a
professional painter, just not well known) will be pissed. I'll let you
tell her. She managed to raise a bunch of kids (I've been told the
stories so many times) while doing her art. Guess she didn't spend any
Karma on (Childraising, pediatric medicine, identifying creative
storytelling, etc.)......

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:46:31 -0400

Message no. 7 Fixer wrote:
> ->Fixer wrote:
> ->> My definition of an active skill: If it requires activity, is
> ->> generally resisted and is primarily useful only in conflict
> situations,
> ->> it's an active skill. Otherwise, it's a knowledge skill.
>
> I'll take them individually since you so kindly decided to give
> them to me in that way.
>
From reading your response, I'd reword your definition as:
1) if it requires activity and
2) if it can be useful in conflict situations

I've removed "generally resisted" as you seem to have meant it as a
guideline...

You've listed lots of stuff like Athletics, Diving and Biotech as
"primarily useful in conflict situations" - what about running for a
bus, going swimming at a lake or giving somebody tylenol? Most people
with these skills would *not* be using them in conflict, much less
combat.

What about defining active skills as:
1) requiring physical coordination (or effort) or
2) requiring decision-making
So playing chess, doing needlepoint and playing darts would be active,
while knowledge skills are effectively equivalent to having a reference
book handy.

> ->Aura Reading
> Should be Knowledge IMO, yes. Knowing, from past experience, what
> the 'colors' in a person's aura stand for.
>
We don't know how obvious or distinct those "colours" are. FASA has
given us more info on astral space, but still not very much (it'll be
in MiTS, I hope). I think that the more complex the aura-producer, the
more complex the aura and thus figuring out the mood of a person would
be akin to forecasting the weather (ie not totally accurate and it takes
skill).

> ->Demolitions
> Resisted by the Demolitions skill of the guy trying to disarm it.
> Active and used in conflict situations (unless you just like building
> bombs).
>
Much demolitions work is blasting rock and demolishing buildings - yes
it *is* useful in conflict/combat situations, but it's useful for other
stuff too. Similarly for Computer.

There's lots more to follow, but I'll just snip it since I think we
understand each other...

> ->Changing your definition to "activity OR resisted OR conflict" fits
the
> ->skill list much better, but I'd probably simplify it to "If a brain in
> ->a jar can do it, it's not active". :-)
> Provided the "Brain in a Jar" could communicate, all the social
> skills plus computer would be Knowledge then.
>
Nope. No communication - I've clarified what I meant in my suggestion
above.

James Ojaste

btw - I overrode your Reply-To and sent this to the list anyway because
this seems to be one of the few on topic threads... :-)

From:	Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:07:17 -0400

Message no. 8 On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

->Fixer wrote:
->> ->Fixer wrote:
->> ->> My definition of an active skill: If it requires activity, is
->> ->> generally resisted and is primarily useful only in conflict
->> situations,
->> ->> it's an active skill. Otherwise, it's a knowledge skill.
->>
->> I'll take them individually since you so kindly decided to give
->> them to me in that way.
->>
->>From reading your response, I'd reword your definition as:
->1) if it requires activity and
->2) if it can be useful in conflict situations
->
->I've removed "generally resisted" as you seem to have meant it as a
->guideline...
->
->You've listed lots of stuff like Athletics, Diving and Biotech as
->"primarily useful in conflict situations" - what about running for a
->bus, going swimming at a lake or giving somebody tylenol? Most people
->with these skills would *not* be using them in conflict, much less
->combat.

I clarified in a later post. And I'm not talking about "average
citizen", I'm talking about shadowrunners. People can run without having
Athletics, and can (usually) swim without having Diving. Giving someone
tylenol is a learned response, we have pain, we take tylenol... they have
pain... let them take tylenol. No skill is required for these actions.

->What about defining active skills as:
->1) requiring physical coordination (or effort) or
->2) requiring decision-making
->So playing chess, doing needlepoint and playing darts would be active,
->while knowledge skills are effectively equivalent to having a reference
->book handy.

Uhm, almost every skill I have ever heard of requires decision
making. Rock Bands of the 90's: Was in Aerosmith or Nirvana that made
this song?

->> ->Aura Reading
->> Should be Knowledge IMO, yes. Knowing, from past experience, what
->> the 'colors' in a person's aura stand for.
->>
->We don't know how obvious or distinct those "colours" are. FASA has
->given us more info on astral space, but still not very much (it'll be
->in MiTS, I hope). I think that the more complex the aura-producer, the
->more complex the aura and thus figuring out the mood of a person would
->be akin to forecasting the weather (ie not totally accurate and it takes
->skill).

But it's all thinking. No activity.

->> ->Demolitions
->> Resisted by the Demolitions skill of the guy trying to disarm it.
->> Active and used in conflict situations (unless you just like building
->> bombs).
->>
->Much demolitions work is blasting rock and demolishing buildings - yes
->it *is* useful in conflict/combat situations, but it's useful for other
->stuff too. Similarly for Computer.
->
->There's lots more to follow, but I'll just snip it since I think we
->understand each other...

Yeah. That list was a little ridiculous, but I didn't want you to
get the impression I hadn't thought it all out.

->> ->Changing your definition to "activity OR resisted OR conflict"
fits the
->> ->skill list much better, but I'd probably simplify it to "If a brain in
->> ->a jar can do it, it's not active". :-)
->> Provided the "Brain in a Jar" could communicate, all the
social
->> skills plus computer would be Knowledge then.
->>
->Nope. No communication - I've clarified what I meant in my suggestion
->above.

Hopefully you didn't miss mine either.

->James Ojaste
->
->btw - I overrode your Reply-To and sent this to the list anyway because
->this seems to be one of the few on topic threads... :-)

It wasn't going to the list? Whoops!

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:09:35 -0400

Message no. 9 Fixer wrote:
> ->What about defining active skills as:
> ->1) requiring physical coordination (or effort) or
> ->2) requiring decision-making
> ->So playing chess, doing needlepoint and playing darts would be active,
> ->while knowledge skills are effectively equivalent to having a reference
> ->book handy.
>
> Uhm, almost every skill I have ever heard of requires decision
> making. Rock Bands of the 90's: Was in Aerosmith or Nirvana that made
> this song?
>
But you're not *deciding* who played the song, you're *remembering*
who played the song. Can a book make a decision? No (excluding L-space
for the moment ;-). Can a book tell you who played the song? Yes!
Therefore, no decision required.

> ->> ->Aura Reading
> ->> Should be Knowledge IMO, yes. Knowing, from past experience,
> what
> ->> the 'colors' in a person's aura stand for.
> ->We don't know how obvious or distinct those "colours" are. FASA has
>
> But it's all thinking. No activity.
>
Yes, it's all thinking, but I'd call it mental activity. :-P

> ->Nope. No communication - I've clarified what I meant in my suggestion
> ->above.
> Hopefully you didn't miss mine either.
>
No, I caught it. My main point of contention is that thought can be
activity. IMO, using your mind to remember something is a KS - purely
passive (like using your body to feel something). Using your mind to
produce new information or decisions is *doing* something.

> ->btw - I overrode your Reply-To and sent this to the list anyway because
> ->this seems to be one of the few on topic threads... :-)
>
> It wasn't going to the list? Whoops!
>
I wasn't sure if it was on purpose or not... :-)

James Ojaste

From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:34:06 -0400

Message no. 10 At 12:38 PM 9/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
<snippage!>
>->What would you rate your singing skill at? How often do you use it? =
What
>->would happen to your ability to sing if you didn't do it for, say, six
>months?
>
> Rating? About a 3. How often? Uhm... I can't remember when I
>used it really. After making the post I tested out the voice again and
>folks say I did fine. I did a duet with a singer friend of mine and we
>sounded fine too. I don't believe singing will deteriorate significantly
>with time. Especially not at the rate of SOTA.

Your voice won't deteriourate, but you will forget how to project your
voice properly. You will fall out of practice on your breathing technique.
Do a lot of singing without proper training and you can lose your voice
completely. A skill that requires not maintenence is a skill that you
never had to learn. That's natural ability - talent - not a skill. You're
now arguing edges and flaws.

><sarcasm>
> New paintbrush invented. Whooppee. I'm certain all the older
>artists must now change or they'll fall behind and their art will be
>considered less valuable. <chunks Picasso's works out the window>
></sarcasm>

Now you're just being argumentative. This is hardly a productive way to
bounce ideas.

Picasso is a chief example. He changed the way we looked at art forever.
Art students now study picassoisms that they never had to know before he
arrived. What of cubism? Dadaism? Piet Mondrian's work changed the way
many people viewed what "art" was fundamentally.

<snipp!>
> Yes, well, no matter how slow you are, if you are of equal skill
>to another, you will still perform the task as well or at least have as
>easy of a time learning it as someone of equal intelligence.

Learning How to draw and paint was damn near impossible for me. Why?
Because I didn't have the manual dexterity in my hands required to
translate what I saw and imagined to paper. I would say that was a
Quickness linked incapacity.

<snip>
> So..... you're using your Quickness alone to sculpt? I would
>think it would require a skill.

I learned how to sculpt because I spent more time on it (or extra karma :)
to raise it above my lower quickness rating.

<snip>
> Damn, I would have just made it easy and just made it Photography.
>Make one roll for impact and be done with it. If you rolled crummy you
>messed something up. If you rolled well it was (with 1 die) luck or (with
>8 dice) skill. While that one PC is rolling all those extraneous skills,
>the rest are breaking into that character's house to kill him for taking
>up game time.

So would I. Because nobody in any of my games has cared about that level
of detail. But If a player was interested in sending his character past
the basic photojournalism level of photography, to make photography "art"
and get it into a gallery, I'd expect the player to put a few more details
into his skill-set.

Most people don't really care about this level of detail, they're looking
for snap-shots or incriminating evidence with the photography skill. That
kind of thing, I think just plain "Photography(Background)" covers.

<snip!>
> So I suppose that means that unless you can't become a
>professional painter without spending every waking moment (the equivalent
>of Karma) into all the associated skills (Paint Mixing, canvas
>preperation, frame building, etc.).... sheesh. My grandmother (who is a
>professional painter, just not well known) will be pissed. I'll let you
>tell her. She managed to raise a bunch of kids (I've been told the
>stories so many times) while doing her art. Guess she didn't spend any
>Karma on (Childraising, pediatric medicine, identifying creative
>storytelling, etc.)......

Mages devote most of their karma to initiations, allies, spells and
focuses. Most of them find the karma to upkeep their firearms skills don't
they? They find time for a "normal" life and have hobbies to "get
away"
from their chief drive don't they? They still learn Ettiquette, raise
families, read the News, and have the chance to fiddle around with
Electronics(Maglocks).

But in my experiences, most magicians spend 70-80% of their karma on their
"art" -- their chief drive. Few learn to deck, rig, or fight well due to
their devotion to magic. Artists and Musicians are like that too(with art
an magic, respectively). Not many people opt for the "Rocker" archtype
because there aren't a lot of musician skills that are incredibly useful
for the shadowrunner.

My point is: A painter would have various types of painting skills, not
Painting(background) would just be the tip of the iceberg. you don't get
away with calling yourself a Street Sam by having a Combat(background)
knowledge skill (well, not for long, at least). Being an artist is a
discipline. A lifestyle. An occupation.

>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:23:23 +0200

Message no. 11 According to Fixer, at 14:07 on 25 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Uhm, almost every skill I have ever heard of requires decision
> making. Rock Bands of the 90's: Was in Aerosmith or Nirvana that made
> this song?

Well, at least that one's easy: if it sounds crap, it was Aerosmith :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	"Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Artiste (was Re: Musical Skills)
Date:	Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:28:55 -0700

Message no. 12 > > Uhm, almost every skill I have ever heard of requires
> decision
> > making. Rock Bands of the 90's: Was in Aerosmith or Nirvana that
> made
> > this song?
>
> Well, at least that one's easy: if it sounds crap, it was Aerosmith :)
>
<disclaimer>
This post does not speak for all members of the mailing list. We now
return you to your normal ShadowRN reading! :)
</disclaimer>

I happen to like Aerosmith...and Nirvana. :)

-=Toffer=-

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