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Message no. 1
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:41:51 EDT
What's this place like? Sure, we know that living things glow, and dead
things just sorta sit there, but what about the rest of it? How populated is
the average stretch of Downtown? What about in the middle of the Barrens? Is
there any kind of wind there? Are other senses used aside form sight
(especially if you're a character who is not oriented primarily on sight).

Nexx
Message no. 2
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:37:58 -0500
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:41:51 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
>What's this place like? Sure, we know that living things glow, and dead
>things just sorta sit there, but what about the rest of it? How
populated is
>the average stretch of Downtown? What about in the middle of the
Barrens? Is
>there any kind of wind there? Are other senses used aside form sight
>(especially if you're a character who is not oriented primarily on
sight).
>
>Nexx

Hmmmmm ... This would make a *great* new place book for FASA ... Hmmmm, I
would think in most cities, it wouldn't be sparse .... Boston probably
has Astral Activity up the Yin-Yang (some places in Boston may actually
have astral rush hour! ... not getting from point A to B via route C but
if a lot of astral critters come and go, say from the ivied <eGMg> walls
of MIT&T, then traffic may get clogged. You may have to go off campus to
do any meta-planar questing or risk getting "I'm sorry, your Quest can
not be completed as dialed, please return to your body and try again ..."
[Note that last bit was a joke not a serious suggestion ;]) For most
other metroplexes, look at your runners and extrapolate ...If they use
heavy amount astral ju-jus, most likely the rest of aMagiacally active
populatin will too, unless you think the runners are special cases ... If
they are extremely conservative about astral activity then most likely
there will be less ... either way I'd guess that there'd be moderate to
heavy astral activity except around "secure" sights ... You know, now
that you mention it, I wish that FASA had listed the percentage of
Magically Actives in the place books along with the other demographics.
:/

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 3
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:38:00 -0500
>Boston probably has Astral Activity up the Yin-Yang (some places in
>Boston may actually have astral rush hour! ... not getting from point A
>to B via route C but if a lot of astral critters come and go, say from the
>ivied <eGMg> walls of MIT&T, then traffic may get clogged. You may
>have to go off campus to do any meta-planar questing or risk getting
>"I'm sorry, your Quest can not be completed as dialed, please return to
>your body and try again ..."

MIT tore down it's ivy ten years ago (while I was there), it was
damaging the stonework. We students considered getting some
cuttings from Hahvahd and replanting it in the middle of the night...

If you dial an MIT number from outside the institute you get "This is MIT,
collect and third party calls will not be accepted here..." followed by the
ringing of the phone. Your quote rings too true :)

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:49:07 -0400
At 03:41 PM 6/16/98 EDT, you wrote:
>What's this place like? Sure, we know that living things glow, and dead
>things just sorta sit there, but what about the rest of it? How populated is
>the average stretch of Downtown? What about in the middle of the Barrens?
Is
>there any kind of wind there? Are other senses used aside form sight
>(especially if you're a character who is not oriented primarily on sight).

First of all, the astral plane pretty much looks like the mundane plane.
It's a mirror image after all.

So aside from astral entities like spirits and elementals (which probably
aren't terribly common), and aside from the fact that all the living things
have an aura of some sort, it looks very much like the mundane plane.

I had always gotten the impression that every sense was used in the astral
plane, but not necessarily the same way they are used in the mundane plane.
By that I mean that I've always that there was a sort of synthesia (I
think that's the right word, or at least vaguely) in which a magician could
taste a sound and feel a smell, that sort of thing. I doubt that certain
things like smell and taste are used much (since those involved particles
actually coming into contact with the proper receptors) but I believe that
that they still would be involved via the synthesia (or whatever it is).

It's a bit hard to write stuff like that though, and since everyone
understands how senses are supposed to work, it's generally just described
visually.

But I really don't think that the astral is that much different from the
mundane.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 5
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:29:34 EDT
In a message dated 6/16/98 7:43:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Nexx3@***.COM writes:

> What's this place like? Sure, we know that living things glow, and dead
> things just sorta sit there, but what about the rest of it? How populated
> is
> the average stretch of Downtown? What about in the middle of the Barrens?
> Is
> there any kind of wind there? Are other senses used aside form sight
> (especially if you're a character who is not oriented primarily on sight).
>

What is the astral like ? Hmmm ... it is constantly changing in places where
people live as it reflects the current overall state of emotion of the place
... it can feel thicker than thick soup, or could almost feel like you are
moving through softened butter ...

As for whom lives there ... spirits ... and anything an evil GM wants to have
a home in the astral ...

How populated is a stretch of area ... coin toss ...

As for an astral wind ... yes, I could see there being an astral wind that
mimcs a wind flowing through a general area ... and could see even the
potential for their being days when the astral has extremely strong gusts of
wind ...

And as for additional senses being used to perform assensings, why the frag
not. We let the players use all of the senses (though most of them stick with
sight), for instance, Herc, my Mechanic-Mage, uses his sense of Touch to
perform assensings on vehicles and other devices.

-Mike
Message no. 6
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:46 EDT
In a message dated 16/06/98 15:40:51 Central Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> Hmmmmm ... This would make a *great* new place book for FASA ...

Yeah, but given that FASA likes to have people who live there write place
books, we're gonna have a problem... unless someone knows Buttercup

Nexx
Message no. 7
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:59:56 -0500
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:46 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 16/06/98 15:40:51 Central Daylight Time,
dghost@****.COM
>writes:
>> Hmmmmm ... This would make a *great* new place book for FASA ...

>Yeah, but given that FASA likes to have people who live there write
place
>books, we're gonna have a problem... unless someone knows Buttercup
>
>Nexx

LOL ... I'll check my rolodex but I don't think I have her business card
... hmmm ... If she did take up the offer, would she write it as one big
manga comic book?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 8
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:37:03 -0400
Double-Domed Mike wrote:
>MIT tore down it's ivy ten years ago (while I was there), it was
>damaging the stonework.

You mean MIT wasn't always cement bunkers?

> We students considered getting some
>cuttings from Hahvahd and replanting it in the middle of the night...

There's precious little left there as well. Again, because it was ripping
the bricks a part. It would have been priceless to see the look of whoever
the dean was then (Bok?) though, when he shows up for work and _all_ the
ivy on his building is missing.

Wordman
Message no. 9
From: BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:47:59 -0400
Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
>
> What's this place like?
Well I would say something along the lines of pure energy and force.
Something aglow with light and sound not found in RL. Granted all the
objects of the mundane world are still there, but are looking rather
tired and withdrawn. Not alive as plants and other flora and fauna are.
> the average stretch of Downtown?

What about in the middle of the Barrens?
rephrase these 2 questions i don't copy?
Is
> there any kind of wind there?
why not.
Are other senses used aside form sight
> (especially if you're a character who is not oriented primarily on sight).
like I said IMHO sound would have to work. Everything else is
heightened. Why not use touch, or taste. Ever taste a peach in astral
space????


--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy
Message no. 10
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:56:13 -0500
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:59:56 -0500 Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
writes:
>On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:46 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
>>In a message dated 16/06/98 15:40:51 Central Daylight Time,
dghost@****.COM
>>writes:
>>> Hmmmmm ... This would make a *great* new place book for FASA ...

>>Yeah, but given that FASA likes to have people who live there write
place
>>books, we're gonna have a problem... unless someone knows Buttercup
>>
>>Nexx

>LOL ... I'll check my rolodex but I don't think I have her business
>card ... hmmm ... If she did take up the offer, would she write it as
>one big manga comic book?
<SNIP my sig>

Hmmm... ya know, I gave this more thought and why not? What about
developing an Astral Plane place book *on the list*???? and submitting it
to FASA? It'd be really cool to have a book with "ShadowRN" in the
little Author's box (or would it be "Buttercup by unauthorized proxy"?)
... I dunno if the DLoH would go for it ... but it'd rock to try ... (and
we could always net publish it otherwise ...)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

DISCLAIMER:
All dumb ideas are due to the fact that it's 3 am, I don't have access to
any Mega Jolt Cola, and/or I'm having a blonde moment (no offense to all
blondes ;)

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Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:02:26 +0100
Nexx Many-Scars said on 18:44/16 Jun 98,...

> Yeah, but given that FASA likes to have people who live there write place
> books, we're gonna have a problem...

I have a feeling that was FASA's policy until Mike took over... I
mean, I doubt the writers of Cyberpirates live in the Carribean,
western Africa, and/or Madagascar. Similarly, I don't think Jon
Szeto lives in Vladiwostok (sp?), the Far East, or north-western
Europe, yet he did write about them for Target: Smuggler Havens.

> unless someone knows Buttercup

Yeah, she's living in a house down the street but asked me to
keep it quiet.

Oops...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
An intelligent computer would be one that doesn't work most of the time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:29:57 EDT
In a message dated 17/06/98 03:00:18 Central Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> Hmmm... ya know, I gave this more thought and why not? What about
> developing an Astral Plane place book *on the list*???? and submitting it
> to FASA? It'd be really cool to have a book with "ShadowRN" in the
> little Author's box (or would it be "Buttercup by unauthorized proxy"?)
> ... I dunno if the DLoH would go for it ... but it'd rock to try ... (and
> we could always net publish it otherwise ...)

So far as I can see, the major problem would be getting everyone who worked on
it (even by making a comment) agree that their stuff would be ok to use... but
can you imagine keeping track of everyone who said anything, just for the
blurb in the front?
Message no. 13
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:33:23 EDT
In a message dated 17/06/98 04:17:33 Central Daylight Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> Yeah, she's living in a house down the street but asked me to
> keep it quiet.
>
> Oops...

Yeah, and if we knew your real name, could read Dutch, understand addresses in
the Netherlands and knew which particular house you were refering to, we might
actually be able to find her <g>

Nexx, Stalker to Free Spirits
Message no. 14
From: Daniel Gelinske <dunkelzahn@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:42:40 -0700
<snip>

> So far as I can see, the major problem would be getting everyone who worked on
> it (even by making a comment) agree that their stuff would be ok to use... but
> can you imagine keeping track of everyone who said anything, just for the
> blurb in the front?

I used to lurk on the NERPS mailing list, a while back, but wouldnt this be a
goodproject for NERPS? From what I understand, Awakenings was largely based on
a Nerps netbook, and the current project is working on places around the world.
A sourcebook for the Astral plane(s) would be an excellent NERPS project IMO,
once the current project was finished or whatever. Input?

Dan Gelinske

"those who live by the sword get shot by those who dont."
---Pembroke Pendragon, Burned-Out-Mage For Hire
Message no. 15
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:38:31 -0400
> > So far as I can see, the major problem would be getting everyone who
> worked on
> > it (even by making a comment) agree that their stuff would be ok to
> use... but
> > can you imagine keeping track of everyone who said anything, just
> for the
> > blurb in the front?
>
> I used to lurk on the NERPS mailing list, a while back, but wouldnt
> this be a
> goodproject for NERPS? From what I understand, Awakenings was largely
> based on
> a Nerps netbook, and the current project is working on places around
> the world.
> A sourcebook for the Astral plane(s) would be an excellent NERPS
> project IMO,
> once the current project was finished or whatever. Input?
>
>
Seems to me the basic problem with writing an Astral
Plane book would be that the astral plane varies from place to place
even more than the real world does. Thus the things you would find in
each city or region would be completely different. You would end up with
a summary of the things from the other place books regarding each of
their astral "feels". Not that this would be a bad thing, but the astral
plane is a funhouse mirror of the real world not an isolated place like
Berlin or Seattle.
Message no. 16
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:26:31 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>At 03:41 PM 6/16/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>What's this place like? Sure, we know that living things glow, and dead
>>things just sorta sit there, but what about the rest of it? How populated
>>is
>>the average stretch of Downtown? What about in the middle of the Barrens?
> Is
>>there any kind of wind there? Are other senses used aside form sight
>>(especially if you're a character who is not oriented primarily on sight).
>
>First of all, the astral plane pretty much looks like the mundane plane.
>It's a mirror image after all.

I don't see it as a literal mirror at all. Otherwise, things like not
being able to read in astral space turn out to be really arbitrary.
If you really want to know what I think astral space is like, take a
look at:
http://ojaste/ml.org/~ojastej/SRII/Astral.html
It doesn't go into much detail of the general atmosphere, but you can
get an idea...

James Ojaste
>
Message no. 17
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:02:29 -0500
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:38:31 -0400 bryan.covington@****.COM writes:
>> > So far as I can see, the major problem would be getting everyone who

>> > worked on it (even by making a comment) agree that their stuff would
be ok
>> > to use... but can you imagine keeping track of everyone who said
anything,
>> > just for the blurb in the front?

And? It might be work, but it'd fun too ... the mention doesn't have to
be so-and-so wrote this section, but would rather read something like:
ShadoRN:
Contributers:
List o' Names
Fearless Leader: Mark Imbracio
Assisstant Fearless Leader: Adam Jury
(GridSec: List o' Names)
For more information about ShadowRN visit Http://www.Yada-yada.com/...

>> I used to lurk on the NERPS mailing list, a while back, but wouldnt
this be
>> a goodproject for NERPS? From what I understand, Awakenings was
largely
>> based on a Nerps netbook, and the current project is working on places

>> around the world. A sourcebook for the Astral plane(s) would be an
excellent
>> NERPS project IMO, once the current project was finished or whatever.

>> Input?

> Seems to me the basic problem with writing an Astral
>Plane book would be that the astral plane varies from place to place
>even more than the real world does. Thus the things you would find in
>each city or region would be completely different. You would end up with
>a summary of the things from the other place books regarding each of
>their astral "feels". Not that this would be a bad thing, but the astral
>plane is a funhouse mirror of the real world not an isolated place like
>Berlin or Seattle.

Well, IMO, it should go with a description of astral space in general,
then a description of the metaplanes (which would make the name of the SB
a misnomer), perhaps introducing some new ones (such as the metaplane of
death from Cyberpirates). The descriptions should cover general terrain,
any special properties, appearance (including all applicable senses),
common denizens as well as a description of what kind of traffic you
normally see (IMO, the metaplanes might have lots of traffic but unless
your Quests are related/the same, you won't see anyone else that's
Questing). After that, then the descriptions of Astral space given in
other SBs caould be elaborated upon. Some examples of what the Astral
Plane looks like based on the physical plane would also be helpful for
extrapolating the appearance of the astral plane based on the physical
descriptions and/or previous events. Certain magical effetcs could also
use elaborate (such as what does background count / power sites look like
and what affect does being aspected have on their appearance?) In the
back, there could be a world map displaying all (or most) of the major
(rating 4) mana lines. If any new metaplanes are detailed, then possibly
some new spirits could be introduced as well.

... hmmm ... that would be plenty right there :) and with the Grimmy,
Awakenings, the upcoming Magic in the Shadows, and this if it ever got
off the ground (which I doubt except possibly as a netbook), that would
make 4 magic supplements not counting the tidbits in other sourcebooks!

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 18
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:54:18 -0400
At 12:02 PM 6/17/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>> around the world. A sourcebook for the Astral plane(s) would be an
>excellent
>>> NERPS project IMO, once the current project was finished or whatever.

Something along these lines would be far more appropriate to the NERPS list
(since writing net.books is what we do over there). Of course, that list
has been terribly slow of late. Hopefully that means people are writing...

<snipped even more regarding what the book would cover>

Well, you could generate any number of metaplanes you wanted to. I did
that a while back, created 4 (?) metaplanes that were published in the
now-defunct Shadowland magazine as part of a general magic article.

The biggest problem I see right now is that I have a very strong suspicion
that each magician may see the astral plane in a different, unique way.

A Dog Shaman could very well sense things differently on the astral than a
hermetic or a houngan or even another Dog Shaman. Things like spells are
known to be nearly unique (hence spell signatures). And I don't think you
could really say a "Background Count of 1 looks like this, a 2 is like
this" because each power site is going to be different. Auschwitz and the
Vatican may both have a BC of 4 or something, but it'll be radically
different from each other. Even two churchs with equal BC's may look
different from the astral.

Yes, there would almost certainly have to be certain constants, certain
benchmarks, but these would almost certainly be hermetic creations.

Let me backtrack a bit here. I'm not saying that what the shaman sees is
totally different than what the hermetic sees. But there would probably be
subtle but powerful differences. A Dog Shaman may "smell" auras for
example, while a hermetic sees a colored glow. Someone else may "taste" a
background count (a phrase I use a lot actually) while another may "hear"
it. It's still the same background count, it's still the same strength,
it's still presenting the same message (good, evil, hope, etc.), it's just
percieved in different ways.

This wide variety of experiences would make an "astral sourcebook" a near
impossibility. A metaplanar book would be of some utility, since having
pre-generated metaplanes (ala Harlequin's Back) could be of some use to
some GMs, especially those running high magic games.

Erik J.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. -Dennis Miller
Message no. 19
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:13:40 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>>>> around the world. A sourcebook for the Astral plane(s) would be an
>>excellent
>>>> NERPS project IMO, once the current project was finished or whatever.
>
>Something along these lines would be far more appropriate to the NERPS list
>(since writing net.books is what we do over there). Of course, that list
>has been terribly slow of late. Hopefully that means people are writing...
[snip]
>Well, you could generate any number of metaplanes you wanted to. I did
>that a while back, created 4 (?) metaplanes that were published in the
>now-defunct Shadowland magazine as part of a general magic article.

I think that's the idea...

>The biggest problem I see right now is that I have a very strong suspicion
>that each magician may see the astral plane in a different, unique way.
>
>A Dog Shaman could very well sense things differently on the astral than a
>hermetic or a houngan or even another Dog Shaman. Things like spells are
>known to be nearly unique (hence spell signatures). And I don't think you

Well, I'd say as unique as two paintings of the same subject. A major
difference between the mages (like say one's shamanic and the other is
hermetic) may appear as the difference between impressionist and cubist.
Or not. They're both painted with paint on canvas, though (unless the
cubist has been smoking crack again, but...)

>could really say a "Background Count of 1 looks like this, a 2 is like
>this" because each power site is going to be different. Auschwitz and the
>Vatican may both have a BC of 4 or something, but it'll be radically
>different from each other. Even two churchs with equal BC's may look
>different from the astral.

OK, so write a book with descriptions of those places. Target: Astral.

>Yes, there would almost certainly have to be certain constants, certain
>benchmarks, but these would almost certainly be hermetic creations.

I disagree here - there are several kinds of hermetic as well as
shamanic. Some would be geomancy based "Feng Shui" masters, some would
be the dribbly-candle incantations type.

>Let me backtrack a bit here. I'm not saying that what the shaman sees is
>totally different than what the hermetic sees. But there would probably be
>subtle but powerful differences. A Dog Shaman may "smell" auras for
>example, while a hermetic sees a colored glow. Someone else may "taste" a
>background count (a phrase I use a lot actually) while another may "hear"
>it. It's still the same background count, it's still the same strength,
>it's still presenting the same message (good, evil, hope, etc.), it's just
>percieved in different ways.

I don't see them as perceiving that differently. There will be
differences, but I wouldn't say they'd be that large. Mages can
describe a spell signature, can't they? (SNH - Sourcebook Not Handy)

>This wide variety of experiences would make an "astral sourcebook" a near
>impossibility. A metaplanar book would be of some utility, since having
>pre-generated metaplanes (ala Harlequin's Back) could be of some use to
>some GMs, especially those running high magic games.

I think that astral space would be more dynamic that real space, but
not individually dynamic. Since I consider astral space to be the
realm of emotion, I'd say that one's perception of astral space would
be coloured by your mood, but just *coloured*, not *changed*.

So we could describe Auschwitz as being suffused with bright red flames,
uncomfortably hot and painful, while the Vatican might be very bright,
beautiful, and distracting as the weight of hundreds of years of belief
press down on your shoulders.

Alright, enough with the flowery prose. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 20
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:01:52 -0500
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:13:40 -0400 "Ojaste,James [NCR]"
<James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA> writes:
>Erik Jameson wrote:
<SNIP>

>>The biggest problem I see right now is that I have a very strong
suspicion
>>that each magician may see the astral plane in a different, unique way.
>>
>>A Dog Shaman could very well sense things differently on the astral
than a
>>hermetic or a houngan or even another Dog Shaman. Things like spells
are
>>known to be nearly unique (hence spell signatures).

>Well, I'd say as unique as two paintings of the same subject. A major
>difference between the mages (like say one's shamanic and the other is
>hermetic) may appear as the difference between impressionist and cubist.
>Or not. They're both painted with paint on canvas, though (unless the
>cubist has been smoking crack again, but...)

I have to go with James' ... uhm ... colorful retort :). Although,
exactly how certain magicians "see" astral space may vary (Yay! Another
thing to put into character development! :), there would be certain
underlying motifs, certain basics that don't change or change so little
as to still be eaasily describable.

>>And I don't think you
>>could really say a "Background Count of 1 looks like this, a 2 is like
>>this" because each power site is going to be different. Auschwitz and
the
>>Vatican may both have a BC of 4 or something, but it'll be radically
>>different from each other. Even two churchs with equal BC's may look
>>different from the astral.

>OK, so write a book with descriptions of those places. Target: Astral.

The description of background count / power sites wouldn't have to be
"All <insert astral phenomenon (doot-do-di-doo) here> look this ..." but
instead general guidelines on how said phenon-err-occurances would most
likely manifest based on what caused them ...

>>Yes, there would almost certainly have to be certain constants, certain
>>benchmarks, but these would almost certainly be hermetic creations.

>I disagree here - there are several kinds of hermetic as well as
>shamanic. Some would be geomancy based "Feng Shui" masters, some would
>be the dribbly-candle incantations type.

Again, I agree with James. Hermetics are as varied as Shamans. You have
the Hermetic Druids from Tir na Nag, the hermetics who use the Tarot in
their magic, the ones who use complex formulas, etc ... What I think you
(Erik J) mean is that the hermetics are the ones who are going to write
all the books... in which case you may be mostly right ... though there
would be some books from the various Shamanic Traditions (most likely
geared towards other Shamans) ...

>>Let me backtrack a bit here. I'm not saying that what the shaman sees
is
>>totally different than what the hermetic sees. But there would
probably be
>>subtle but powerful differences. A Dog Shaman may "smell" auras for
>>example, while a hermetic sees a colored glow. Someone else may
"taste" a
>>background count (a phrase I use a lot actually) while another may
"hear"
>>it. It's still the same background count, it's still the same
strength,
>>it's still presenting the same message (good, evil, hope, etc.), it's
just
>>percieved in different ways.

>I don't see them as perceiving that differently. There will be
>differences, but I wouldn't say they'd be that large. Mages can
>describe a spell signature, can't they? (SNH - Sourcebook Not Handy)

*grabs SB* hmmm... A mage can describe his spell signature ... it doesn't
say anything about describing somone elses ... (or I missed it) ... Also
the Spell Signature rules are funky ... according the rules as printed it
would seem that an asensing magician adds +1 to the target numbers per
Intiate Grade the assensing magician has and adds 1 dice per grade that
the caster of the spell has ... Huh??? It's easier for non-initiates to
assense a high-grade intiate's spell signature than the other way
around??? That, IMO, does not make sense ...

>>This wide variety of experiences would make an "astral sourcebook" a
near
>>impossibility. A metaplanar book would be of some utility, since
having
>>pre-generated metaplanes (ala Harlequin's Back) could be of some use to
>>some GMs, especially those running high magic games.

>I think that astral space would be more dynamic that real space, but
>not individually dynamic. Since I consider astral space to be the
>realm of emotion, I'd say that one's perception of astral space would
>be coloured by your mood, but just *coloured*, not *changed*.
>
>So we could describe Auschwitz as being suffused with bright red flames,
>uncomfortably hot and painful, while the Vatican might be very bright,
>beautiful, and distracting as the weight of hundreds of years of belief
>press down on your shoulders.
>
>Alright, enough with the flowery prose. :-)
>
>James Ojaste

I think an Astral Place book would be very possible and very interesting.
But actually, that makes me think of something ... would there be
temperature differences in the astral plane? Is the Astral plane in
Antartica cold or normal?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:26:10 -0400
At 02:13 PM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote:

>>Well, you could generate any number of metaplanes you wanted to. I did
>>that a while back, created 4 (?) metaplanes that were published in the
>>now-defunct Shadowland magazine as part of a general magic article.
>
>I think that's the idea...

I'm not disagreeing on this point. But I think you reach a certain point
of diminished returns on this general concept. While a dozen new
metaplanes might be cool, do we really want or need fully fleshed out
worlds ala the Seattle Sourcebook? That's just too much for me.

>>Yes, there would almost certainly have to be certain constants, certain
>>benchmarks, but these would almost certainly be hermetic creations.
>
>I disagree here - there are several kinds of hermetic as well as
>shamanic. Some would be geomancy based "Feng Shui" masters, some would
>be the dribbly-candle incantations type.

No. Remember, a stereotypical hermetic sees the astral and mana as complex
forms and shapes and formulae and numbers and such. Those types of folks
are far more likely to try and quantify things and set up certain magical
constants. They all use the same magic to do the same things, but the
hermetic is far more likely to try to make it all rules based and logical.

>>Let me backtrack a bit here. I'm not saying that what the shaman sees is
>>totally different than what the hermetic sees. But there would probably be
>>subtle but powerful differences. A Dog Shaman may "smell" auras for
>>example, while a hermetic sees a colored glow. Someone else may "taste"
a
>>background count (a phrase I use a lot actually) while another may
"hear"
>>it. It's still the same background count, it's still the same strength,
>>it's still presenting the same message (good, evil, hope, etc.), it's just
>>percieved in different ways.
>
>I don't see them as perceiving that differently. There will be
>differences, but I wouldn't say they'd be that large. Mages can
>describe a spell signature, can't they? (SNH - Sourcebook Not Handy)

Yes, they can describe a spell signature. What I'm saying is not that a
hermetic would see blue while a shaman sees red, I'm saying they percieve
in a different way. The Dog Shaman might smell the colors that the
hermetic sees. Going back to my earlier comment regarding synethesia (that
syndrome that causes people to "taste" words and "hear" colors and
whatnot). It's basically just looking at the same thing, but from a
different angle.

>I think that astral space would be more dynamic that real space, but
>not individually dynamic.

I can't help but think that some people (not you specifically) are locked
into the belief that the astral is an entirely different dimension or
something. It's a "funhouse" mirror of the mundane world and is
irrevocably connected to it. Yes, you'd have a number of spirits flitting
about (but except in high magic games, there aren't supposed to be large
numbers of spirits flitting about). And there would be a far more diverse
and brighter assemblage of colors and other senses because of living auras.

But the astral isn't like a bustling New York street. Only 1% of the
population is magically active, and only a fraction of that number is a
full magician or capable of astral projection. And there aren't a whole
lot of spirits wandering the streets.

So while the astral may be more dynamic, it almost certainly isn't
noticably more crowded or busy.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 22
From: Randy Nickel <RANNIC@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:02:28 -0700
<<I'm not disagreeing on this point. But I think you reach a
certain point of diminished returns on this general concept. While a
dozen new metaplanes might be cool, do we really want or need fully
fleshed out worlds ala the Seattle Sourcebook? That's just too much for
me.>>

Maybe, but I like to think of the Metaplanes in an Amber
Concept. That is that anything that can be imagined does exist. Almost
like the television show Sliders.

-- Eclipse
Message no. 23
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:54:55 -0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
>
> If any new metaplanes are detailed, then possibly
> some new spirits could be introduced as well.


Heheh. Maybe I can find a place for that Lumini idea of mine :) .

Bira
Message no. 24
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:01:14 -0300
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> At 02:13 PM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Going back to my earlier comment regarding synesthesia (that
> syndrome that causes people to "taste" words and "hear" colors
and
> whatnot).

Isn't synesthesia a figure of language? Aplying adjective sfrom other
senses
to describe something (i.e. "dark silence" ) ?

Bira
Message no. 25
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:24:07 +1000
Bira writes:
> > Going back to my earlier comment regarding synesthesia (that
> > syndrome that causes people to "taste" words and "hear"
colors and
> > whatnot).
>
> Isn't synesthesia a figure of language? Aplying adjective sfrom other
> senses
> to describe something (i.e. "dark silence" ) ?

Nope... synesthesia is a real and documented condition. It occurs where the
sensory processing areas of the brain have above-average inter communication
ability (more or less). This results in sensory input being processed by,
say, the visual cortex going over to the part that processes taste as well,
with the result that looking at, say, Kylie Minogue really does give you a
sour taste in the mouth. :)

Synesthesia is not a handicap. It's generally described as having a bit of a
bonus. It's also not all _that_ uncommon (about 1%?), though manifestations
of more than 2 linked sense is a lot rarer.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 26
From: Butter Cup <buttercup252@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:17:50 -0700
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:46 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 16/06/98 15:40:51 Central Daylight Time,
dghost@****.COM
>writes:
>> Hmmmmm ... This would make a *great* new place book for FASA ...
>
>Yeah, but given that FASA likes to have people who live there write
place
>books, we're gonna have a problem... unless someone knows Buttercup
>
>Nexx

Actually, I always thought the astral plane was poorly developed in
Shadowrun ... Perhaps I /should/ write a place book for it...

Buttercup (the really pissed off because she can't get a data jack Anima)
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 27
From: Daniel Gelinske <dunkelzahn@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:38:14 -0700
> I'm not disagreeing on this point. But I think you reach a certain point
> of diminished returns on this general concept. While a dozen new
> metaplanes might be cool, do we really want or need fully fleshed out
> worlds ala the Seattle Sourcebook? That's just too much for me.
>

I was sort of thinking that rather than a book with one singular"fictional
author," there can be differing sections each by different
points-of-view, sort of like how it was done in the "Threats" sourcebook.
One part of the sourcebook would have the universal information,
sort of modeled on a book written by some MIT&M egghead magical
theorist, and the following sections by various denizens of astral
space. The possibilities for an astral sourcebook are quite open, as
many messages from this thread have shown, from metaplane locations
to new spirits, and possibly even a few new spells, physad powers,
and rules created to better define astral space.

Dan Gelinske
Message no. 28
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:39:21 -0500
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:26:10 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 02:13 PM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Well, you could generate any number of metaplanes you wanted to. I
did
>>>that a while back, created 4 (?) metaplanes that were published in the
>>>now-defunct Shadowland magazine as part of a general magic article.

>>I think that's the idea...

>I'm not disagreeing on this point. But I think you reach a certain
point
>of diminished returns on this general concept. While a dozen new
>metaplanes might be cool, do we really want or need fully fleshed out
>worlds ala the Seattle Sourcebook? That's just too much for me.

I don't that'd be necessary, Just a little something about general
appearance / Themes, a little bit on the Denizens of the realm ... not
/too/ heavy into it ...

>>>Yes, there would almost certainly have to be certain constants,
certain
>>>benchmarks, but these would almost certainly be hermetic creations.
>>I disagree here - there are several kinds of hermetic as well as
>>shamanic. Some would be geomancy based "Feng Shui" masters, some would
>>be the dribbly-candle incantations type.

>No. Remember, a stereotypical hermetic sees the astral and mana as
complex
>forms and shapes and formulae and numbers and such. Those types of
folks
>are far more likely to try and quantify things and set up certain
magical
>constants. They all use the same magic to do the same things, but the
>hermetic is far more likely to try to make it all rules based and
logical.

Why would a hermetic be more likely try about how their magic works than
a shaman? IMO, in such a book, there should be a section with such a
description from a hermetic and one from a shaman.

>> >Let me backtrack a bit here. I'm not saying that what the shaman
sees is
>> >totally different than what the hermetic sees. But there would
probably be
>> >subtle but powerful differences. A Dog Shaman may "smell" auras
for
>> >example, while a hermetic sees a colored glow. Someone else may
"taste" a
>> >background count (a phrase I use a lot actually) while another may
"hear"
>> >it. It's still the same background count, it's still the same
strength,
>> >it's still presenting the same message (good, evil, hope, etc.), it's
just
>> >percieved in different ways.

>>I don't see them as perceiving that differently. There will be
>>differences, but I wouldn't say they'd be that large. Mages can
>>describe a spell signature, can't they? (SNH - Sourcebook Not Handy)

>Yes, they can describe a spell signature. What I'm saying is not that a
>hermetic would see blue while a shaman sees red, I'm saying they
percieve
>in a different way. The Dog Shaman might smell the colors that the
>hermetic sees. Going back to my earlier comment regarding synethesia
(that
>syndrome that causes people to "taste" words and "hear" colors and
>whatnot). It's basically just looking at the same thing, but from a
>different angle.

If that was so, why is the target number for describing a signature
independent of the traditions of the mages ... this, IMO, indicates that
FASA considers astral space to "look" the same no matter who's doing the
viewing ...

>>I think that astral space would be more dynamic that real space, but
>>not individually dynamic.

>I can't help but think that some people (not you specifically) are
locked
>into the belief that the astral is an entirely different dimension or
>something. It's a "funhouse" mirror of the mundane world and is
>irrevocably connected to it. Yes, you'd have a number of spirits
flitting
>about (but except in high magic games, there aren't supposed to be large
>numbers of spirits flitting about). And there would be a far more
diverse
>and brighter assemblage of colors and other senses because of living
auras.
>
>But the astral isn't like a bustling New York street. Only 1% of the
>population is magically active, and only a fraction of that number is a
>full magician or capable of astral projection. And there aren't a whole
>lot of spirits wandering the streets.
>
>So while the astral may be more dynamic, it almost certainly isn't
>noticably more crowded or busy.
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

I can see how I might have that stuck in my head (especially since in RM,
the Astral/ Aetheral plane WAS different, just overlaid) ... but what if
it IS a seperate plane that takes up the same "space" but is just out of
phase with the physical plane ... IMO, that doesn't change anything ...
and I don't know about there not being spirit flitting about ... depends
... in magic heavily areas like Chicago, or Boston there most likely
-ARE- spirits flitting about (though for different reasons ...)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 29
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:57:11 -0400
At 02:39 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Why would a hermetic be more likely try about how their magic works than
>a shaman?

Partially because that is the stereotype that is presented to us by FASA.
And there is always a kernel of truth to every stereotype.

But hermetics are going to be far more likely to do the heavy research and
*publish* that research for the magical masses to consume. Most shamans
don't see magic as anything approaching a science, while most hermetics do.

So the books that try to define what a Background Count is or what exactly
is a Force Point will be written, and therefor the definitions made by, the
hermetics.

>>Yes, they can describe a spell signature. What I'm saying is not that a
>>hermetic would see blue while a shaman sees red, I'm saying they
>percieve
>>in a different way. The Dog Shaman might smell the colors that the
>>hermetic sees. Going back to my earlier comment regarding synethesia
>(that
>>syndrome that causes people to "taste" words and "hear" colors
and
>>whatnot). It's basically just looking at the same thing, but from a
>>different angle.
>
>If that was so, why is the target number for describing a signature
>independent of the traditions of the mages ... this, IMO, indicates that
>FASA considers astral space to "look" the same no matter who's doing the
>viewing ...

*sigh* You're slipping right past my point. Just because one magician
smells an aura while another sees it and yet another hears it doesn't mean
they can't derive the same exact information from that aura. So no, Target
Numbers *wouldn't* be different, just how the individual magician percieves
and describes those things. It's the same aura, the same information is
recieved and understood by the magician. It's really just a different
means of transmitting and recieving that same information.

The astral plane itself is probably very uniform, since in many ways it
mimics the geography of the mundane world.

Most hermetics probably "see" auras as those rainbows of colors. Hell, I'm
sure a number of shamans and "non-scientific types" do to. But I would
argue that there are those magicians that would percieve auras and other
magical affects through other senses, such as smell, taste and hearing.
Same information is recieved, just a different mode of reception.

Personally I'm very fond of describing nasty background counts as bad
tastes and foul smells. It just makes more sense to me.

Am I much clearer now? I sure hope so.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 30
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:58:46 -0400
At 09:24 AM 6/18/98 +1000, you wrote:

>Nope... synesthesia is a real and documented condition. It occurs where the
>sensory processing areas of the brain have above-average inter communication
>ability (more or less). This results in sensory input being processed by,
>say, the visual cortex going over to the part that processes taste as well,
>with the result that looking at, say, Kylie Minogue really does give you a
>sour taste in the mouth. :)

I could make any number of rude comments about how Kylie would taste, but I
won't...

Anyway, this is to a great degree how magicians could possibly percieve
things in astral space. I'm a proponent of certain magicians having
extreme synethesia so that certain senses are totally rearranged, but that,
to be honest, is very hard to describe with mere words.

But I'd think, as I have been arguing, that this sort of condition is part
and parcel to the astral experience.

>Synesthesia is not a handicap. It's generally described as having a bit of a
>bonus. It's also not all _that_ uncommon (about 1%?), though manifestations
>of more than 2 linked sense is a lot rarer.

I've never met anyone with it.

Sudden thought. Let's say he's right, that about 1% of the population has
synethesia. How many of us know someone like that? Very few of us, I'm sure.

Now, in SR, magicians are about 1% of the 205X population, correct? That
should give you an idea of just how magicians are in SR...

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 31
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:22:42 -0400
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
[snip]
>The description of background count / power sites wouldn't have to be
>"All <insert astral phenomenon (doot-do-di-doo) here> look this ..."
but
>instead general guidelines on how said phenon-err-occurances would most
>likely manifest based on what caused them ...

Not only that, but to have several examples would definitely help
clarify things. Archetypical locations is what I'm getting at: a
church, a murder scene, an office building, a busy street - places where
people are likely to end up at some point.

[snip]
>>So we could describe Auschwitz as being suffused with bright red flames,
>>uncomfortably hot and painful, while the Vatican might be very bright,
>>beautiful, and distracting as the weight of hundreds of years of belief
>>press down on your shoulders.
[snip]
>I think an Astral Place book would be very possible and very interesting.
> But actually, that makes me think of something ... would there be
>temperature differences in the astral plane? Is the Astral plane in
>Antartica cold or normal?

Hmm. I'd say that it's actually pretty dull and dark, and probably
cold (anything living in the Antarctic would feel cold). Of course,
a slimy lawyer's office might also feel cold (uncaring) and hot (anger).

Metaphor is your friend. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 32
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:11:23 -0500
>
> Re: The Astral Plane (Robert Watkins , Wed 18:24)
>
> Bira writes:
> > > Going back to my earlier comment regarding synesthesia (that
> > > syndrome that causes people to "taste" words and "hear"
colors and
> > > whatnot).
> >
> > Isn't synesthesia a figure of language? Aplying adjective sfrom other
> > senses
> > to describe something (i.e. "dark silence" ) ?
>
> Nope... synesthesia is a real and documented condition. It occurs where the
> sensory processing areas of the brain have above-average inter communication
> ability (more or less). This results in sensory input being processed by,
> say, the visual cortex going over to the part that processes taste as well,
> with the result that looking at, say, Kylie Minogue really does give you a
> sour taste in the mouth. :)
>
> Synesthesia is not a handicap. It's generally described as having a bit of a
> bonus. It's also not all _that_ uncommon (about 1%?), though manifestations
> of more than 2 linked sense is a lot rarer.

It IS a handicap when the "extra" sensations are overwhelming,
unpleasent, or distracting. Many halucinagins produce synaesthetic
affects, and in our game, we often describe astral space via
synaesthetic metaphore- halucinagenic drugs have historically been used
as an acsess route to "the other realm". So thecollorofsombody's
auramight smell /sound funny to a percieving mage, for example, or an
atifact might "taste" powerful- but the mage is NOT licking it!
It is interesting that IRL perhaps ~1% have this syndrome- perhaps it
is a potential componant of the meta-magical geno-complex?

-Mongoose
Message no. 33
From: Pantherr <taslehof@*****.INTERNETLAND.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:37:14 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> >Nope... synesthesia is a real and documented condition. It occurs where the
> >sensory processing areas of the brain have above-average inter communication
> >ability (more or less). This results in sensory input being processed by,
> >say, the visual cortex going over to the part that processes taste as well,
> >with the result that looking at, say, Kylie Minogue really does give you a
> >sour taste in the mouth. :)

Yep. And the color blue *does* have a soothing taste to it. Well,
to *my* perceptions, anyway ;)

> Anyway, this is to a great degree how magicians could possibly
> percieve things in astral space. I'm a proponent of certain
> magicians having extreme synethesia so that certain senses are
> totally rearranged, but that, to be honest, is very hard to describe
> with mere words.

I simply replace (for example) 'see' with 'taste' on the *very* rare
occasion that I try to describe it :)

> But I'd think, as I have been arguing, that this sort of condition
> is part and parcel to the astral experience.

It could very well be. the percentages are about the same.....it's
possible

> >Synesthesia is not a handicap. It's generally described as having a bit of a
> >bonus. It's also not all _that_ uncommon (about 1%?), though manifestations
> >of more than 2 linked sense is a lot rarer.

It's both, actually. I sometimes think I'm hearing things because of
it. (or else I could be hearing astral activity <g>). But OTOH,
it amuses me when ppl look at me funny because I sometimes smell
things or taste things and mention it out loud. especially when I
taste stuff by touching it. :)

> I've never met anyone with it.

come visit me sometime :)

> Sudden thought. Let's say he's right, that about 1% of the
> population has synethesia. How many of us know someone like that?
> Very few of us, I'm sure.

I've known someone for my entire life. Or does it not count if you
ARE a such person? ;)

Pantherr

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Message no. 34
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:34:34 -0500
> Re: The Astral Plane (Erik Jameson , Thu 11:57)
>
> At 02:39 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Why would a hermetic be more likely try about how their magic works than
> >a shaman?
>
> Partially because that is the stereotype that is presented to us by FASA.
> And there is always a kernel of truth to every stereotype.
>
> But hermetics are going to be far more likely to do the heavy research and
> *publish* that research for the magical masses to consume. Most shamans
> don't see magic as anything approaching a science, while most hermetics do.
>
> So the books that try to define what a Background Count is or what exactly
> is a Force Point will be written, and therefor the definitions made by, the
> hermetics.

Excepting, of course, for Joe Whitefeather (?), the biggest name in
magical theory (can't find him in my books, though)- he was the one to
describe, along with some other guy, just what magic / mana is, IIRC.
I'd say Shaman get just as theoretical, they would just couch it in
terms of "ancestral wisdom" and "strong medicine", instead of as
"arcane
lore" and "mana-reactive dynamics". Theres plenty of wiz-ganger
hermetics who learn nothing about magic beyond "which buttons to
press".
Heremtic libaraies wouldn't nesesarily have any theortical info- check
out the book of the Golden Dawn- unless you get some annotated version,
its just a long list of instructions for rituals. Similarly, the
"necronomican", while not accepted as an actual occult text, is mighty
impressive without revealing many of the "why's" of magic.

-Mongoose

-Mongoose
Message no. 35
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:34:39 -0500
> Re: The Astral Plane (Erik Jameson , Thu 12:58)

> Sudden thought. Let's say he's right, that about 1% of the population has
> synethesia. How many of us know someone like that? Very few of us, I'm sure.
>
> Now, in SR, magicians are about 1% of the 205X population, correct? That
> should give you an idea of just how magicians are in SR...

Synaesthesia is not a visible conditon,nor doesithave a large impact on
your lifestyle and such. Being a mageis not visible, but it often
causes noticable lifestyle changes- education, employment, association
with other mages, probaly at least respect within the community.
Doctors are less than 1% of theposulation, and most of us know a doctor,
right?

-Mongoose
Message no. 36
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:23:05 -0400
At 03:34 PM 6/19/98 -0500, you wrote:

> Excepting, of course, for Joe Whitefeather (?), the biggest name in
>magical theory (can't find him in my books, though)- he was the one to
>describe, along with some other guy, just what magic / mana is, IIRC.

Not to punch holes in my own theories, but I think Akiko Kano was a shaman
also.

> I'd say Shaman get just as theoretical, they would just couch it in
>terms of "ancestral wisdom" and "strong medicine", instead of as
"arcane
>lore" and "mana-reactive dynamics". Theres plenty of wiz-ganger
>hermetics who learn nothing about magic beyond "which buttons to
>press".

I'll agree with you to a certain extent. I'm sure there are shamans that
are just as scientifically minded as the most hard core hermetic. And I'm
sure there are hermetics that are terribly mystical.

But I would also say that the *average* hermetic is going to have a far
more "scientific" frame of mind than your *average* shaman and so the large
majority of "scientific" books and papers and speaches and such will be
done by hermetics.

And there's magicians of all traditions that only know how to "push the
buttons." I reflect this in the game mechanics by them having no Magical
Theory Skill.

> Heremtic libaraies wouldn't nesesarily have any theortical info-
check
>out the book of the Golden Dawn- unless you get some annotated version,
>its just a long list of instructions for rituals. Similarly, the
>"necronomican", while not accepted as an actual occult text, is mighty
>impressive without revealing many of the "why's" of magic.

True to an extent. You'd have to remember though that once magic comes
back and is indisputably back (without getting into any discussion of if it
is here today) then there are going to be lots of folks attempting to apply
the Scientific Method to magic. I don't see that now; all the magick books
I've ever read or looked at deal strictly with ritual and really don't even
vaguely apply the scientific method (though there could be exceptions I
just haven't seen in my somewhat limited experience). But if magic became
just as real as physics, I'm sure that would change. And who would be
leading that charge? Hermetics I'm positive.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 37
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:23:45 -0400
At 03:34 PM 6/19/98 -0500, you wrote:

> Synaesthesia is not a visible conditon,nor doesithave a large
impact on
>your lifestyle and such. Being a mageis not visible, but it often
>causes noticable lifestyle changes- education, employment, association
>with other mages, probaly at least respect within the community.

Respect? I don't know, a whole lot of mundanes fear magicians. Got a bit
of that sort of thing going on over on TK right now.

>Doctors are less than 1% of theposulation, and most of us know a doctor,
>right?

I'm not sure doctors are a very good example, because we all need doctors
at some time or other, right? We get sick, we go see a doctor. Another
profession would be a far more appropriate metaphor.

Perhaps...how many of us know a professional athlete? Very few of us, I'm
sure. How many of us know any stock brokers? Probably just as rare.

Erik J.


Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort, President of Operations
and Director of Activities

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"
Message no. 38
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:23:34 -0500
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:23:05 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 03:34 PM 6/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
<SNIP>
>> I'd say Shaman get just as theoretical, they would just couch
it in
>>terms of "ancestral wisdom" and "strong medicine", instead of
as
"arcane
>>lore" and "mana-reactive dynamics". Theres plenty of wiz-ganger
>>hermetics who learn nothing about magic beyond "which buttons to
>>press".

>I'll agree with you to a certain extent. I'm sure there are shamans
that
>are just as scientifically minded as the most hard core hermetic. And
I'm
>sure there are hermetics that are terribly mystical.
>
>But I would also say that the *average* hermetic is going to have a far
>more "scientific" frame of mind than your *average* shaman and so the
large
>majority of "scientific" books and papers and speaches and such will be
>done by hermetics.
>
>And there's magicians of all traditions that only know how to "push the
>buttons." I reflect this in the game mechanics by them having no
Magical
>Theory Skill.

Scientiffically mindedness has nothing to do with book publishing ... A
shaman may choose to write a book about insights given to him/her by Dog
or Cat or Bear (or whatever) that may be useless except to other shamans
... and what about a book on "herbal remedies" which to a shaman is
actual spell fetish/focus formulas?

>> Heremtic libaraies wouldn't nesesarily have any theortical
info-check
>>out the book of the Golden Dawn- unless you get some annotated version,
>>its just a long list of instructions for rituals. Similarly, the
>>"necronomican", while not accepted as an actual occult text, is mighty
>>impressive without revealing many of the "why's" of magic.

>True to an extent. You'd have to remember though that once magic comes
>back and is indisputably back (without getting into any discussion of if
it
>is here today) then there are going to be lots of folks attempting to
apply
>the Scientific Method to magic. I don't see that now; all the magick
books
>I've ever read or looked at deal strictly with ritual and really don't
even
>vaguely apply the scientific method (though there could be exceptions I
>just haven't seen in my somewhat limited experience). But if magic
became
>just as real as physics, I'm sure that would change. And who would be
>leading that charge? Hermetics I'm positive.
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

As far as who'd be most likely to be applying the scientific method to
spell research, I agree with you ... as to who'd be "leading the charge"
in spell research, I'm positive it wouldn't be any one tradition ...
altough amongst shamans I think urban totems would more likely publish
work than rural ones but that is not neccisarily true ... Btw, by
publish, I mean that 2 or more shamans could be having a discusion about
the insights given to them by their totems (since IMO, one shaman would
have deep respect for all totems not just his/her own) and then posting
the logs of such a discussion somewhere on the trix (like magenet for
example) constitues "publishing".

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 39
From: Pantherr <taslehof@*****.INTERNETLAND.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:44:14 +0000
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> Synaesthesia is not a visible condition,nor does it have a
> large impact on
> your lifestyle and such. Being a mage is not visible, but it often
> causes noticeable lifestyle changes- education, employment,
> association with other mages, probably at least respect within the
> community. Doctors are less than 1% of the population, and most of us
> know a doctor, right?

Maybe it doesn't have a VISIBLE impact, but it sure as hell affects
your view of the world, IMHO (and I should know, since I'm one of the
*few* lucky (or unlucky, depending on your POV) that are blessed
with/cursed by it :) )

And of course anything that affects your POV will affect your overall
mentality, etc :)

Pantherr

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A lifetime spent repressing our animal natures and instincts is a lifetime wasted
--
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Message no. 40
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:11:34 -0300
Pantherr wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> come visit me sometime :)
>
> > Sudden thought. Let's say he's right, that about 1% of the
> > population has synethesia. How many of us know someone like that?
> > Very few of us, I'm sure.
>
> I've known someone for my entire life. Or does it not count if you
> ARE a such person? ;)
>


Hehe, we seen to have a mage on our list... :)


Bira
Message no. 41
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:41:00 -0500
> [OT] Re: The Astral Plane (Pantherr , Sat 15:42)
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > > I've known someone for my entire life. Or does it not count if you
> > > ARE a such person? ;)
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hehe, we seen to have a mage on our list... :)
>
> Well, I don't know about THAT. Only one way to find out I guess ;)

I doubt that synasthesia would be a nessesary or qualifieng indicator
of astral activity. (IE, its no promise, either way).
In SR, there is a test for such activity in "unawakened" individuals
that isoften adminstered to children. If such a simple indicator were a
clear sign, that test would not be needed.

-Mongoose (the anti-Bull, who brings threads BACK on topic)
Message no. 42
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:41:50 -0500
Butter Cup wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:44:46 EDT Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM> writes:
> >In a message dated 16/06/98 15:40:51 Central Daylight Time,
> dghost@****.COM
> >writes:
> >> Hmmmmm ... This would make a *great* new place book for FASA ...
> >
> >Yeah, but given that FASA likes to have people who live there write place
> >books, we're gonna have a problem... unless someone knows Buttercup

*cue sound of reference going over someone's head*

> >Nexx
>
> Actually, I always thought the astral plane was poorly developed in
> Shadowrun ... Perhaps I /should/ write a place book for it...

Personally I'm hoping Steve K. takes care of at least some of this in
SR3/MitS.

> Buttercup (the really pissed off because she can't get a data jack Anima)

???
There are worse things... and in the meantime, I'm sure you'll make do with
a tortoise like the rest of us:)

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Message no. 43
From: Pantherr <taslehof@*****.INTERNETLAND.NET>
Subject: Re: The Astral Plane
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 01:13:12 +0000
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> I doubt that synaesthesia would be a necessary or qualifying
> indicator
> of astral activity. (IE, its no promise, either way).
> In SR, there is a test for such activity in "unawakened"
> individuals
> that is often administered to children. If such a simple indicator
> were a clear sign, that test would not be needed.

Very true. But that doesn't mean testing for synesthesia isn't part
of the test.

Pantherr, who kind of likes the idea of being magically active

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Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about The Astral Plane, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!