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From:	The Powerhouse <P.C.Steele@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Big "D"
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:03:43 GMT

Message no. 1 > > Well the Laughing Man (also in the TT) is almost certainly Harlequin and he
> > refers to a conversation that the two of them had a while back. Now FASA
> > released a leaflet sometime back detailing this leaflet. I never saw it,
but
> > someone posted it to the net, I still have a copy if anyone wants it again.
>
> Yes, I'm intereted by your leflet about this big "D". I've not TT in reach
so
> I can't understand who's Dunklezahn.

Dunklezahn is a Great Western Dragon, prehaps the most famous of the dragons
as he hosted an interview with Holly Brighton of some news program. He lairs
in Lake Lousie and has claimed the surrounding valley for his own. He is
quite often found in Shadowrun source books, I believe the first one he cropped
up in was Paranormals of NA, though I may be wrong.

He also seems to have a flair for the unusual and enjoys playing games with
humans. Apart from that not much else is known about him. Anyway I've
included the original post. Full credit to whoever's name on it (I haven't
imported the file at this point).

Phill.
--
Phillip Steele - Email address P.C.Steele@***.ac.uk | An Uzi a day keeps the
Department Of Electrical & Electronic Engineering | politicians at bay O O
University Of Newcastle Upon Tyne, England | |
Land of the mad Geordies | The Powerhouse \_/

*****

From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN54@***.EARN>

Copyright 1993 FASA, all the usual disclaimers apply.

1Wyrm Talkby Tom Dowd
"There's a dragon here to see you." I said evenly.
He glanced up casually from either the papers strewn
about the coffee table or the data-screen lying on top of
them; I couldn't tell which. The slice of pizza in his hand
dripped grease onto the pile. "Oh," he asked. "Which
one?"
"How in god's name should I know?" I replied. He could
be such a pain sometimes. "You haven't started teaching me
that yet."
He smiled and put the pizza slice down on the table.
"Of course, my dear" he said, standing. "Soon, soon."
"So?" I asked, dropping my hands onto my hips.
His eyebrow raised. "So?"
"There's a fraggin dragon here to see you!"
He idly licked some of the grease from his hand. "Well,
yes, you just told me that."
He'd made my promise to stop trying to hit him, but
sometimes.... "Do you want to just leave him out there?"
"No. Of course not!" he replied. "How could you think
that. That would be quite rude. Ask him in."
"Don't you think he's a little big for the doorways?" I
figured that was ultimately a stupid question. In the short
time that I'd been with him I'd learned, if nothing else,
that the obvious was rarely that and the impossible the
norm.
He tilted his head and smiled in his damnable "I know
lots of things you don't." look. "Why don't we let him
decide, eh?"
I shrugged. "Fine, why don't we. It's your repair
bill." I turned and was about to leave the room when a
thought occurred to me. I paused, and looked back at him. He
was bending down for the pizza slice.
"Um, I don't know what dragons are into," I said, "but
I figure you might want to put some clothes on before he
comes in."
He looked up at me, and then down at himself. "Yes, I
suppose," he said. "But how do you know it's a he?"
Someday I was going to hit him so hard they'd need a
closed casket.
Out back, I paused, straightened my clothes, and walked
briskly into the garden. It was sitting there, right where
it had landed, curiously watching the poi circling in a
nearby shallow pool. Its sapphire and silver scales
reflected the late afternoon sun, changing the garden into a
Maxfield Parish painting. The dragon seemed oblivious to my
presence, intent instead on the motions of the goldfish. I
didn't want toQ was afraid toQ disturb it. If I did it would
move andQ
"Is he home?" it asked. I should have been ready for
the speech, I'd heard it when it'd first landed, but I
wasn't. I heard it clearly, but it didn't move. Nothing on
it moved.
Startled, I took a step back up the flagstone steps.
"I...I mean, yes, yes he is."
"I didn't mean to frighten you, you know." Its great
head swung slowly toward me. There was a glint of light
somewhere deep behind its eyes. It could have swallowed me
whole, right then and there, and I'd have never noticed.
"I understand..."
"Can I go in? It's very tiring keeping my tail in the
air like this, and this is such a wonderful garden."
I looked up at its tail suspended a number of stories
above me. There were barbs on the end. Giant hooks that
couldQ It was gone....
"I can go in, then? Yes?" came a strange voice.
I looked down. The dragon was gone, vanished. In its
place stood a young man, younger than me, maybe twenty or
so, garbed in a fine Arabian suit of the most beautiful blue
silk I had ever seen. His skin was pale, and his features
those of Michelangelo's David. His eyes stood out as a sharp
silver and blue sparkle. I laughed, stupidly.
He smiled. "Of dear, I've startled you again. I am
sorry."
I tried to smile a little myself. "I didn't know
dragons could do that." I said sheepishly. I'd taken a few
more steps backward without realizing it.
He walked toward me and placed one finger to his lips
as he passed. "Please don't tell anyone, it's supposed to be
a secret."
More secrets, I thought. No problem. It was sure as
hell more interesting than Missouri.
The modern decor of the house seemed to intrigue him.
He questioned me on the creator of every piece of art he
saw, but only paused once to lean in for a better look at
the Warhol, god knows why. I led him upstairs, and deciding
to be grandiose, threw wide the study doors as he entered.
He grinned, and strode past me. "May I present,
Dunklezahn," I said as he entered.
The man the dragon had come to see stood as we entered.
He hadn't cleaned up the room any; it still reeked of
sausage and pepperoni, but he had clothed himself in a
simple outfit of black boots and denim pants, and one of the
white cotton shirts he'd bought the other day. He'd kept his
face unpainted.
"My it's been some time, hasn't it?" he said, touching
the fingers of his left hand to his chest, just below the
heart. I'd seen him do that a few times, but he'd never
explained what it meant. I think, however, it meant he was
viewing the new arrival as an equal; thank god.
"Yes, it has Harlequin," replied the dragon, repeating
the gesture. "I was pleased to here of the outcome of your
chal'han." Dunklezahn didn't turn, but I felt his presence
on me for just a moment. Obviously, there were no secrets
from him.
Harlequin grinned. "I'll bet you were." He gestured at
the black leather mushroom couch across from him. "Won't you
sit down?"
The dragon nodded. "Thank you." He reached the couch,
looked down at it for a moment, and the carefully sat
himself. Only after he was fully down and stable, did he
lean back. He smiled.
"So, what can I do for you?" inquired Harlequin.
"I take it you are aware of my status?"
Harlequin's head cocked. "You mean as host of Wyrm
Talk?"
I laughed to myself. Dunklezahn had been interviewed by
an international media team shortly after reemerging. He'd
apparently enjoyed the experience, especially his
spontaneous cross-examination of the journalists, so much
that he requested his own show from one of the networks. In
the intervening years he'd only focused on the idea long
enough to have three shows produced. Harlequin and I had
watched the show the last time that it had been on. The
dragon, obviously enthralled with modern culture, spent the
whole program commenting on anything and everything. In a
couple of segments he'd taken the idea of confrontational
journalism to such an extreme that I suggested the show
should have been renamed Wyrm Food.
Dunklezahn grinned. "Exactly so. I find the whole
concept of media fascinating. Free, unrestricted information
exchange. Who would have imagined?"
"Well, I wouldn't exactly call it unrestricted," said
Harlequin.
"No," agreed the dragon "nor would I. Which is exactly
why I'm here."
"Oh?"
"I would like you to be the subject of my next
program."
"What!" Harlequin exclaimed, leaping to his feet.
I laughed aloud and then clamped my hand over my mouth.
Harlequin glared at me for a split second, and I'd probably
regret it later, but it was such a joy seeing him surprised.
"Well, yes," continued the dragon, "I think you'd make
a wonderful guest."
Harlequin ran his hand through his hair as he shook his
head. "Of all the things I was expecting to talk about..."
"But, Harlequin, you were always the best storyteller.
Just think of how these humans would be enthralled by the
things you could tell them! There's so much they just don't
understandQ"
"And I'm certainly not going to tell them!" interrupted
Harlequin.
The dragon tilted his head oddly. "But don't you think
they have a right to know? It is their world, after all."
Harlequin breathed out heavily, his brow furrowed. "You
want to just tell them everything? Reveal all the myriad
secrets of the universe? You want me to..." He turned toward
me, arm extended and fingers twitching madly. "You want me
to..."
"Spill my guts on global television?" I suggested.
"Yes!" He said snapping his fingers, and turning back
toward the dragon, who blinked. "Do you want me to spill my
guts on television? Open dear Pandora's box once again?"
"Well yes," said the dragon. "Do you realize how
confused they must all be? Look at how their world has
changed. Don't you think they have a right to know what all
this means?"
Harlequin nodded vigorously and moved toward the center
of the room gesturing wildly. "Oh course they do!" he said.
"But why tell them? Let them figure it out; that's where all
the fun is! The clues are there!"
"The clues...?" the dragon, and I, were baffled.
"In the mystery of life, Dunklezahn! The world is like
a giant tapestry. You start out standing very close to.
There's a lot there to see, and if you like, you can spend
your whole life inspecting that one little section. Some may
find that section isn't enough. If they want, they can step
back and see more of the picture. Eventually, they may find
themselves standing far enough back that it's all there
hanging before them.
"If you start them standing all the way back, they'll
become confused. They won't know where to look first.
They'll miss seeing the whole picture." He finished and
folded his arms across his chest, a satisfied smirk on his
face. I eyed the dragon, who still looked perplexed.
"Don't you think there are some things they should be
warnedQ" he began.
"You mean like the invae?" Harlequin asked.
"As a beginning, yes," the dragon told him.
Harlequin dismissed the thought with a gesture.
"They're of no concern, and in fact they support my point
precisely! The humans knew nothing of their coming, but have
been dealing with them quite nicely, nonetheless. Spilling
our gutsQ" he nodded to me "Qto the humans early would have
denied them the discovery! The joy is in the unfolding. Let
them marvel at their world, horrific as it may be sometimes.
Let's not reveal the end of the tale before the final page
is turned, Dunklezahn. Allow the story to tell itself."
The dragon seemed to be staring at the now cold pizza,
but I could tell he was lost in thought. Finally, with a
sigh, he stood and nodded. "I'll take that as a no."
Harlequin laughed, glanced down at the ground and shook
his head.
"Thank you for your hospitality," said Dunklezahn,
moving slowly toward the door.
Harlequin looked up. "I hope I haven't fouled up your
schedule of guests."
The dragon raised an eyebrow. "No, not at all. I may
ask Lady Bran Dhighe of the Daoine Sidhe to speak in you
place."
Harlequin's face stilled. "I wouldn't."
"Oh?"
"Dunklezahn, we've at least always been cordial."
"Very true."
"But I should warn you, there are some of my kind, and
your kind, who think that you have told too much already."
"Oh?"
"Your comments about great dragons and dracoforms, for
one."
The dragon nodded. "Yes, I received some...grief from
that."
"Should you start to speak of...other things..."
Dunklezahn nodded again. "Thank you for your warning
Harlequin. There are such wonderful stories that could be
told."
Harlequin smiled. "And they will be: in time."
The dragon touched his fingers to his chest again, and
once Harlequin had repeated the gesture, began to walk out
of the room. He stopped as he passed me. "It has been a
pleasure meeting you, my lady," he said. "You do your
heritage proud." I smiled, couldn't think of what to say,
and touched my fingers to my chest. He smiled back and
returned the gesture.
I closed the doors behind him as he left, and then
turned, leaning back against them. "It's too bad; I kind of
like him." I said sadly.
"I do to," Harlequin said, looking back down at the
papers "He's the most reasonable of all of them. It'll be a
shame when we have to destroy
him."

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Big "D"
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 1993 11:20:01 -0600

Message no. 2 I think Tirandor is more interesting :-)

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Veteran of the Bermuda Triangle
\/ Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key <=> Expeditionary Force -- 1993-1951
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Big "D"
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 1993 11:36:29 GMT

Message no. 3 >in Lake Lousie and has claimed the surrounding valley for his own. He is

Lake Louise or Lousy Lake? Maybe there both. Heck, ask anyone in Michigan and
they'll tell you their namesake lake is pretty lousy.

J Roberson

From:	It is impossible to sneak up on monsters who have a patio
Subject:	Re: The Big "D"
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:05:49 -0500

Message no. 4 >quite often found in Shadowrun source books, I believe the first one he cropped
>up in was Paranormals of NA, though I may be wrong.

You're wrong. He was in the 1st Street Samurai Catalog, although his post
was only two words long.

Thamks for the story though. I've been trying to find it.

=)
Phelan

From:	Meghan Fox <mfox@******.SMCM.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Big "D"
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 1993 15:19:19 -0500

Message no. 5 Excuse me if I sound like a complete moron, but wasn't Dunklezahn working for
Renraku at one time or another? I could have sworn that he was in charge of
security, or am I getting him confused with someone else?
Megh
mfox@******.smcm.edu

From:	DV82REL8 <GRAFF85@********.CORTLAND.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Big "D"
Date:	Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:20:35 -0400

Message no. 6 #Excuse me if I sound like a complete moron, but wasn't Dunklezahn working for
#Renraku at one time or another? I could have sworn that he was in charge of
#security, or am I getting him confused with someone else?
# Megh
# mfox@******.smcm.edu

Megh-

Your're in the same boat I was in....You're thinking of the dragon who
got gunned (read as annihilated by ghost) down as head of security for
United Oil: Haeselich.

-Dave

From:	"Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject:	The Big 'D'
Date:	Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:04:19 -0600

Message no. 7 I'm kinda behind in my SR History (Don't have awakenings, Portfolio, etc.)
But, one thing I do know, Dunkie (sorry, I can't spell....) died. However, I
was wondering if there were any way dunkie could come back? I mean, is there
anything that the investigation (I'm sure there was one) could have
overlooked?

And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date that
magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries? I don't
like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be answered
by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta have some
answers.

Number 3 here, Does make ebb and flow like a tide or a Sine curve? or is it
more like a saw bade /|/|/|/| (grows then suddenly drops) or a Tangent
"curve" (grows very quickly from -infinity, to almost level off at 0, then
growth again accelerates faster an faster as you never +infinity.)?

Also, scientists now believe that technology may have similar curve (of
course they don't reference SR, and their curve IS like a sawblade) and that
ancient cultures may or may not have had technology greater or equal to ours
today. (IRL, even) Do you think this will have any bear on SR or even apply?

From:	Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:30:40 PST

Message no. 8 >I'm kinda behind in my SR History (Don't have awakenings, Portfolio,
etc.)
>But, one thing I do know, Dunkie (sorry, I can't spell....) died.

Dunkelzahn :)

However, I
>was wondering if there were any way dunkie could come back? I mean, is
there
>anything that the investigation (I'm sure there was one) could have
>overlooked?

Uh, boy... can o' worms here we come. Okay, there was a big
explosion. It was Dunkel's limo. He was in it. No body found. Some
astral witnesses say that they saw his astral form fly into the big
astral rift that now hovers above the spot where he died.
Anything's possible. However FASA is still taking the stand that the
Dunkelzahn won't be back.

>
>And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date
that
>magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries?

Well, according to certain books, it's not supposed to happen for
another few thousand years. But, because the Great Ghost Dance hurried
things along magically, it could be shorter. I've heard rumors that
FASA will drop the proverbial bomb around 2062, but nothing solid.

> I don't
>like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be
answered
>by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta have
some
>answers.

The magic cycle is based off the Mayan calender- according to which
supports the 2062 theory, IIRC

>
>Number 3 here, Does make ebb and flow like a tide or a Sine curve?

It ebbs and flows. Like I mentioned in the ED list, ED is on the
magical downswing of the curve, whereas SR is on the up.

[snip. Dammit, Jim, I'm an RPGer, not a scientist!]

-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp

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From:	Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:54:05 -0600

Message no. 9 > Anything's possible. However FASA is still taking the stand that the
> Dunkelzahn won't be back.
>
I agree.In my Game World,until Fasa Tells us for real, A super Foci
Called the nullifier killed him.Some Corp wagemage found it, then while
examining it and listening to the radio cover of D's inaugeration he
said,"Damn I hate that dragon. Wish he would just die." Then there's a
bright flash,and scientist bob Is just a pile of ashes,and Dunk's
dead.Ripped right out of the Fabric of the universe.
> [snip. Dammit, Jim, I'm an RPGer, not a scientist!]
Star Trekker I presume?(Scotty: I Can't Roleplay her Any more Captain!!
She's Gonna blow! :^)

--
new school/Old school magic: Powerbolt and an air elemental. New school
magic: Take a right at the Metaplane of Infinite Stromboli, past the
Metaplane of Helga, to the Big Flashing Neon Pandas. Tell the watcher
"Mel" sent you.

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:10:45 EST

Message no. 10 In a message dated 98-01-24 15:32:00 EST, nomad74@*******.COM writes:

> Uh, boy... can o' worms here we come. Okay, there was a big
> explosion. It was Dunkel's limo. He was in it. No body found. Some
> astral witnesses say that they saw his astral form fly into the big
> astral rift that now hovers above the spot where he died.
> Anything's possible. However FASA is still taking the stand that the
> Dunkelzahn won't be back.
>
Going to jump in right here for just a second...

There are things I've noticed in the SR rules that leaves a strange doorway,
literally, open to interpretation. We've created what we call a "Quest of
Travail" here, where a character literally opens a doorway into/through the
Metaplanes to go from Point A to Point B. It isn't Teleport, and it does have
some time to it, but it is possible using the existing rules, AS THEY STAND!

Remember, by the book, you can't enter into a Metaplanar Quest if you were
previously projecting...

-K

From:	Robert Davidson <kenlon@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The big D
Date:	Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:55:14 PST

Message no. 11 <Snip stuff about the mana curve>

Xarph: If you metagame this stuff I will kill you.
<Kenlon brandishes a cow launcher>

The mana curve idea has baffled me for a long time.
Why would mana fluctuate for no apparent reason?
Then I hit upon it: The IE and Great Dragons are
_wrong_. There is no "natural" curve of mana.
Mana is created by the belief of the "Name Giver"
races. (I really need to get ED, dammit!) And, over
time, people lose their deep faith in magic, causing
it to become weaker and die out, thus giving the
impression of a cycle. Thus, when there were sufficient
people believing in magic in the 20teens, magic returned.
You may ask, If magic is created by belief, why did
it come back on the predicted mayan calender date?
I reply: Because enough people believed on that day
to cross the threshold.
This leads to some interesting thoughts. The world of
205x has more people on the Earth than ever before.
Nearly all of them believe in magic to some extent.
This should shortly cause the mana level to spike
alarmingly. Horrors, here we come. . .
<EGM> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!</EGM>

ps: If you use this idea, otaku really are magic. . .

Kenlon (Magic drenched GM)

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From:	Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The big D
Date:	Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:11:06 -0500

Message no. 12 On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Robert Davidson wrote:

> <Snip stuff about the mana curve>
>
> Xarph: If you metagame this stuff I will kill you.
> <Kenlon brandishes a cow launcher>
>
>
> The mana curve idea has baffled me for a long time.
> Why would mana fluctuate for no apparent reason?
> Then I hit upon it: The IE and Great Dragons are
> _wrong_. There is no "natural" curve of mana.
> Mana is created by the belief of the "Name Giver"
> races. (I really need to get ED, dammit!) And, over
> time, people lose their deep faith in magic, causing
> it to become weaker and die out, thus giving the
> impression of a cycle. Thus, when there were sufficient
> people believing in magic in the 20teens, magic returned.
> You may ask, If magic is created by belief, why did
> it come back on the predicted mayan calender date?
> I reply: Because enough people believed on that day
> to cross the threshold.
> This leads to some interesting thoughts. The world of
> 205x has more people on the Earth than ever before.
> Nearly all of them believe in magic to some extent.
> This should shortly cause the mana level to spike
> alarmingly. Horrors, here we come. . .
> <EGM> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!</EGM>
>
> ps: If you use this idea, otaku really are magic. . .

Well, why would magic have ceased to function for more than 5000 years.
The vasr majority of humans believed in magic up until only a few hundred
years ago, with the advent of the scientific revolution in Europe, and
most cultures still maintain a traditional belief in magic or some other
form of mysticism. Even in a 'civilized' place like Europe or the United
States, most people are religious to some extent or another, which is
essentially a 'magical' tradition.

True, it is doubtful that most people today believe in spell-casting
wizards, but in 14th century Europe, being accused of sorcery was a rather
serious offence. The inqusition or Salem witch trials were based upon at
least some belief in 'magic', and in most indigenous populations,
particlarly among the native Americans, Africans and Pacific Islanders,
magic is very real and very powerful. Thus, it is hard to fathom the idea that magic
ceased to function because
people ceased to believe in it.

From:	Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Sun, 25 Jan 1998 02:15:05 -0500

Message no. 13 At 12:30 PM 1/24/98 PST, Damon Harper wrote these timeless words:

> Uh, boy... can o' worms here we come. Okay, there was a big
>explosion. It was Dunkel's limo. He was in it. No body found. Some
>astral witnesses say that they saw his astral form fly into the big
>astral rift that now hovers above the spot where he died.
> Anything's possible. However FASA is still taking the stand that the
>Dunkelzahn won't be back.
>
Jak's novels strongly back that up, too...

However, they never show the body, so to speak. And no where does it ever
state with Official Finality "Dunkelzahn is Dead and we have no way to ever
retrieve him." :]

They left more exploitable holes than Marvel Comics ever did :]

>>And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date
>that
>>magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries?
>
> Well, according to certain books, it's not supposed to happen for
>another few thousand years. But, because the Great Ghost Dance hurried
>things along magically, it could be shorter. I've heard rumors that
>FASA will drop the proverbial bomb around 2062, but nothing solid.
>
Gotta love rumors...

I'm fairly certain that there won't be anything like that for quite some
time...

If Shadowrun, RPG's, etc are still going strong at the end of 2011, THEN
they should peak the magic <grin>

But you're right... Instead of taking thousands of years, as the peak is
supposed to, they're now saying it could be as early as 100 years away...

>> I don't
>>like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be
>answered
>>by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta have
>some
>>answers.
>
> The magic cycle is based off the Mayan calender- according to which
>supports the 2062 theory, IIRC
>
Oh no... That would mean that the magic would be gone 51 years after that,
since SR magic and the Mayan Calendar follow the Sine Wave theory (Which
answers #3 below). Which makes for a helluva short "Age", since the last
one lasted, what? 6000 years? 4000? Something like that?

>>Number 3 here, Does make ebb and flow like a tide or a Sine curve?
>
> It ebbs and flows. Like I mentioned in the ED list, ED is on the
>magical downswing of the curve, whereas SR is on the up.
>
It is a Sine Curve...

>[snip. Dammit, Jim, I'm an RPGer, not a scientist!]
>
<grin>

Bull
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From:	Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:16:58 -0500

Message no. 14 On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Bull wrote:

> At 12:30 PM 1/24/98 PST, Damon Harper wrote these timeless words:
>
> > Uh, boy... can o' worms here we come. Okay, there was a big
> >explosion. It was Dunkel's limo. He was in it. No body found. Some
> >astral witnesses say that they saw his astral form fly into the big
> >astral rift that now hovers above the spot where he died.
> > Anything's possible. However FASA is still taking the stand that the
> >Dunkelzahn won't be back.
> >
> Jak's novels strongly back that up, too...
>
> However, they never show the body, so to speak. And no where does it ever
> state with Official Finality "Dunkelzahn is Dead and we have no way to ever
> retrieve him." :]

All I have to say is: go out and get Beyond the Pale as soon as you can.

It answers the question we've been waiting on an answer for for a while,
in a concrete and VERY WELL DONE manner.

Kudos and heavy congratulations to Jak Koke and the guys at FASA for
maintaining internal consistency, confirming a great deal of things which
have been supposed about for a while, and adding a lot more to the
Shadowrun univers.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Director of Roleplaying--Shadowrun MUX Detroit--joshua.dnaco.net 4201

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The big D
Date:	Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:18:17 +0100

Message no. 15 Robert Davidson said on 21:55/24 Jan 98...

> The mana curve idea has baffled me for a long time. Why would mana
> fluctuate for no apparent reason? Then I hit upon it: The IE and Great
> Dragons are _wrong_. There is no "natural" curve of mana. Mana is created
> by the belief of the "Name Giver" races. (I really need to get ED,
> dammit!) And, over time, people lose their deep faith in magic, causing
> it to become weaker and die out, thus giving the impression of a cycle.

There is one flaw in this theory: in ED, magic is very common, to the
point of having magical fire-lighters and self-cooking pots available for
a reasonable price (100 silver pieces; a broadsword costs 25 silver). Not
somehting _every_ home will have, but not outside their reach if they save
up for a while either. Just about everyone is exposed to magic in their
daily life, and that makes it a bit unlikely they'd lose their belief in
magic. (Unless, of course, you subscribe to Pratchett's view that there's
no point in believing in something that's real.)

> Thus, when there were sufficient people believing in magic in the
> 20teens, magic returned. You may ask, If magic is created by belief, why
> did it come back on the predicted mayan calender date? I reply: Because
> enough people believed on that day to cross the threshold.

But how did they know about it in the first place? The shift to the Sixth
World was only really noticed later on, according to the world history in
SRII. You'd have to have a large part of the world's population believe in
the return of magic on that date, and I don't think everyone plays SR :)

--
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From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:25:16 -0800

Message no. 16 At 12:04 1/24/98 -0600, Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr. wrote:
>I'm kinda behind in my SR History (Don't have awakenings, Portfolio, etc.)
>But, one thing I do know, Dunkie (sorry, I can't spell....) died. However, I
>was wondering if there were any way dunkie could come back? I mean, is there
>anything that the investigation (I'm sure there was one) could have
>overlooked?

It's my belief that Dunkelzahn faked his own assassination. (It's all the
JFK references. Dunkelzahn refers to JFK in his will, he was martyred
like JFK, and, according to someone who was playing in the GenCon game
where FASA "killed" Dunkelzahn, it happened in front of the JFK building.
Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and three times is enemy action.)
It's known from ED that it's possible to physically enter the astral world
and even the metaplanes; I think Dunkelzahn pulled a stunt like that. (He
may even be doing an Arthur/Charlemagne "I'll return in time to save you
all" with the rift.)

>And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date that
>magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries? I don't
>like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be answered
>by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta have some
>answers.

The cycle of magic is about 5125 years and roughly sinusoidal. Check out
the end part of <http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/space.html>;,
a FASA release at <http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/cycleOfMagic.html>;, and
<http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html>;. (Yes, FASA got their Mayan
calendar wrong.)

>Also, scientists now believe that technology may have similar curve (of
>course they don't reference SR, and their curve IS like a sawblade) and that
>ancient cultures may or may not have had technology greater or equal to ours
>today. (IRL, even) Do you think this will have any bear on SR or even apply?

Vernor Vinge is one of the best writers on technological acceleration.
I highly recommend "The Peace War", "Marooned in Realtime", and
"A Fire
Upon the Deep". ("The Peace War" and "Marooned in Realtime" are
also in
the collection "Across Realtime".) Vinge believes in the notion of a
Singularity: a point at which technology so changes life that we won't
be able to predict what that future will be like. There's a whole group
of people interested in such matters, who usually call themselves
Extropians or Transhumanists. Check out Anders Sandberg's page at
<http://www.aleph.se/Trans/>;.

Most of the transhumanist ideas relate to enhancing and networking human
intelligences. One of the more interesting ideas I have for a far-future
Shadowrun adventure is a competition between two *different* Singularities,
with an AI that networks part of its mind among a host of otaku with
mnemonic enhancers running into an Overmind formed by a big initiatory
group pooling their mental capacities...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

From:	Lord Xarph and his Symphonic Orchestra <xarph@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: The big D
Date:	Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:54:31 -0800

Message no. 17 Kenlon, my resident Evil GM(tm) busted out da following:

> Xarph: If you metagame this stuff I will kill you.

Me? Metagame? Have you lost faith in your GM-in-training?

Besides, you already told me about this. =P

> <Kenlon brandishes a cow launcher>

<Xarph garnishes a cow>

> The mana curve idea has baffled me for a long time.
> Why would mana fluctuate for no apparent reason?

Cuz you keep making all these blood magic entities appear out of nowhere...

> Then I hit upon it: The IE and Great Dragons are
> _wrong_.

Law of high school chemistry: The book is wrong.

> (I really need to get ED, dammit!)

Don't mooch $$$ off me. I don't like paying for my own demise, thank you very
much...

> You may ask, If magic is created by belief, why did
> it come back on the predicted mayan calender date?
> I reply: Because enough people believed on that day
> to cross the threshold.

...And how many people in the mucked-up world of the 20teens are going to
bother reading the mayan calendar. Hell, I'm more obsessed with the occult
than is probably sensible, and *I* haven't read the Mayan calendar!

> This leads to some interesting thoughts. The world of
> 205x has more people on the Earth than ever before.
> Nearly all of them believe in magic to some extent.
> This should shortly cause the mana level to spike
> alarmingly. Horrors, here we come. . .
> <EGM> MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!</EGM>

<Xarph hides behind garnished cow in fear>

Joy... more stuff for my character to be on the recieving end of...

> ps: If you use this idea, otaku really are magic. . .

.... huh?...
So they can do direct decking. How is this related to the magic cycle (or lack
thereof)?

> Kenlon (Magic drenched GM)

My GM was dunked head first in the lifestream. That *MUST* be the only
explanation.

-Lx? (Evil, dragon-obsessed GM-In-Training)
--
Lord Xarph mhm 16x6
xarph@*******.net
http://www.audiophile.com/xarph/
http://pgp5.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xEE2138D0
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it."

English Professor

From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:48:14 +1000

Message no. 18 >There are things I've noticed in the SR rules that leaves a strange
doorway,
>literally, open to interpretation. We've created what we call a "Quest of
>Travail" here, where a character literally opens a doorway into/through
the
>Metaplanes to go from Point A to Point B. It isn't Teleport, and it does
have
>some time to it, but it is possible using the existing rules, AS THEY
STAND!
>
>Remember, by the book, you can't enter into a Metaplanar Quest if you were
>previously projecting...

How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:44:14 +0000

Message no. 19 And verily, did NightRain hastily scribble thusly...
|How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
|project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.

In shadowrun magic, true.
But Dunkie knew quite a bit of Earthdawn magic.
And in Earthdawn there IS actually a spell that allows you to physically
walk in the astral plane (a kind of minor teleport).

Also, an entire CITY (Parlainth) was shifted to a metaplane in an attempt to
escape the horrors...

--
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From:	Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:16:56 -0005

Message no. 20 On 24 Jan 98 at 12:04, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr wrote:

> I'm kinda behind in my SR History (Don't have awakenings, Portfolio,
> etc.) But, one thing I do know, Dunkie (sorry, I can't spell....) died.
> However, I was wondering if there were any way dunkie could come back? I
> mean, is there anything that the investigation (I'm sure there was one)
> could have overlooked?

Officially he's dead. The investigation (the Scott Commision, read a bit
about it on the FASA SR web page if you get a chance) is still looking
into the matter. There have been a lot of theories about what just did
happen and there as still enough gaping holes that he could in fact be
alive. My personal pet theories are as follows:

A) He's dead. Unknown forces (I'm betting Harlequin) killed him to
prevent him from making the world at large aware of lots of secrets.

B) He isn't dead. Dunkelzahn faked his own death to allow his will to be
released in which he reveals lots of interesting things. He could not
have revealed this information while alive because either the immortal
elves or the other dragons (or both) would have killed him for doing so.
Why would he do this, because Dunkelzahn has always taking an interest in
metahuman affairs. He seemed to actually care. For now he'll remain
hidden behind the scenes letting his carefully laid plan play itself out.
Eventually he'll re-appear, but at that point the IE's and other dragons
will let him be since the damage will have already been done.

C) He's dead. Dunkelzahn allowed himself to be killed, knowing that his
death would set in motion events that would ultimately fullfil his goals,
accomplishing things he couldn't have while alive. This follows B pretty
much above, except that he really is dead. (And I'm still betting
Harlequin did it)

Personally I lean towards option C myself.

>
> And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date that
> magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries? I
> don't like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be
> answered by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta
> have some answers.

According to best calculations it won't peak til around 4510. Mike has
officially stated that the mana level is rising at normal rates. However,
some (myself included) have been ascerting that the mana level *is* rising
faster than normal (and personally I think it's being artificially
accelerated, pet theory) and that a peak could happen within the next few
decades. However, in view of current FASA policies on things, I say it'll
happen when FASA says it happens. Whether it makes any particular sense
or not.

>
> Number 3 here, Does make ebb and flow like a tide or a Sine curve? or is
> it more like a saw bade /|/|/|/| (grows then suddenly drops) or a Tangent
> "curve" (grows very quickly from -infinity, to almost level off at 0,
> then growth again accelerates faster an faster as you never +infinity.)?

It's a sine curve repeating in cycles of approx 5,128 years for the up
cycle (magic) and another 5,128 years for the down cycle (no magic).
Though I think the "no magic" statement isn't absolute. Some magic may be
possible in the down cycle, though probably extremely difficult.

--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:35:08 EST

Message no. 21 In a message dated 98-01-27 05:57:16 EST, nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU writes:

> How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
> project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.
>
> NightRain.
>
Is it -Stuck- though? Spiritual Boundaries -do- exist also. What I was
saying by the statement concerning "not starting a metaplanar quest while
projecting from the astral", is that a magician is most definitely under a
different set of rules with the Metaplanes (strange, californian surfer girlie
"duh", and a swish of hair heard in the background ;). Do those rules state
that the body is "Stuck" in the mundane?

Astral Space rules say that when projecting a magician projects into the
astral, s/he leaves his/her body behind. Everyone has assumed that you -have-
to use the same rules for the Metaplanes. But with the events of a couple of
modules now (granted, they surround Harlequin) it is possible to consider that
we (the standard SR magician) are making that dangerous "assumption" thing
again.

Yes, it is an interpretation of the rules, but it is not an interpretation
that goes beyond them. It may or may not go beyond the power level acceptable
to a particular gaming group and/or session, that depends on said group and/or
GM (if the GM isn't open to player discussion).

That is what all of my options are centered around. Power Level that is
acceptable for the group in question after all...

-K

From:	Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:46:54 -0500

Message no. 22 On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Ashlocke wrote:

> On 24 Jan 98 at 12:04, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr wrote:
>
> > etc.) But, one thing I do know, Dunkie (sorry, I can't spell....) died.
> > However, I was wondering if there were any way dunkie could come back? I
> > mean, is there anything that the investigation (I'm sure there was one)
> > could have overlooked?
>
> Officially he's dead. The investigation (the Scott Commision, read a bit
> about it on the FASA SR web page if you get a chance) is still looking
> into the matter. There have been a lot of theories about what just did
> happen and there as still enough gaping holes that he could in fact be
> alive. My personal pet theories are as follows:
>
> A) He's dead. Unknown forces (I'm betting Harlequin) killed him to
> prevent him from making the world at large aware of lots of secrets.
>
> B) He isn't dead. Dunkelzahn faked his own death to allow his will to be
> released in which he reveals lots of interesting things. He could not
> have revealed this information while alive because either the immortal
> elves or the other dragons (or both) would have killed him for doing so.
> Why would he do this, because Dunkelzahn has always taking an interest in
> metahuman affairs. He seemed to actually care. For now he'll remain
> hidden behind the scenes letting his carefully laid plan play itself out.
> Eventually he'll re-appear, but at that point the IE's and other dragons
> will let him be since the damage will have already been done.
>
> C) He's dead. Dunkelzahn allowed himself to be killed, knowing that his
> death would set in motion events that would ultimately fullfil his goals,
> accomplishing things he couldn't have while alive. This follows B pretty
> much above, except that he really is dead. (And I'm still betting
> Harlequin did it)
>
> Personally I lean towards option C myself.
>
> >
> > And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date that
> > magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries? I
> > don't like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be
> > answered by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta
> > have some answers.
>
> According to best calculations it won't peak til around 4510. Mike has
> officially stated that the mana level is rising at normal rates. However,
> some (myself included) have been ascerting that the mana level *is* rising
> faster than normal (and personally I think it's being artificially
> accelerated, pet theory) and that a peak could happen within the next few
> decades. However, in view of current FASA policies on things, I say it'll
> happen when FASA says it happens. Whether it makes any particular sense
> or not.

*some stuff snipped*

You know, I don't mind a lot of things, but this has all become a
*non-issue* now. The FASA-officially-approved explanation of Dunkelzahn's
demise and everything you ever wanted to know about manaspikes, Locuses,
and the like can be found in the ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING "Dragon Heart
Saga" trilogy by listmember Jak Koke. The last book explains--in a very
excellent manner--how Dunkelzahn's demise occurred. It's credible, it
fits into the game, and everything else. Now go out and buy "Beyond the
Pale" and support the pocketbook of one of our listmembers who has gained
more respect from me for his writing since I read the book :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:57:09 +0100

Message no. 23 >A) He's dead. Unknown forces (I'm betting Harlequin) killed him to
>prevent him from making the world at large aware of lots of secrets.
>
>B) He isn't dead. Dunkelzahn faked his own death to allow his will to be
>released in which he reveals lots of interesting things. He could not
>have revealed this information while alive because either the immortal
>elves or the other dragons (or both) would have killed him for doing so.
>Why would he do this, because Dunkelzahn has always taking an interest in
>metahuman affairs. He seemed to actually care. For now he'll remain
>hidden behind the scenes letting his carefully laid plan play itself out.
>Eventually he'll re-appear, but at that point the IE's and other dragons
>will let him be since the damage will have already been done.
>
>C) He's dead. Dunkelzahn allowed himself to be killed, knowing that his
>death would set in motion events that would ultimately fullfil his goals,
>accomplishing things he couldn't have while alive. This follows B pretty
>much above, except that he really is dead. (And I'm still betting
>Harlequin did it)
>
> Personally I lean towards option C myself.

Me too but I'm not really conviced by the culpability of H. Such a direct
action against him doesn't fit with the character. IMO, the opposition
between Erhan and Queen Alachia could lead us to think the Tir Na Nog's
elves are responsible. If we look back at ED, we can see that blood wood
elves were very secretive too and didn't like to share their knowledge with
others.
Anyway, I don't see much people that aren't fine with his death.

>> And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date that
>> magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries? I
>> don't like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be
>> answered by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta
>> have some answers.
>
> According to best calculations it won't peak til around 4510.
Mike has
>officially stated that the mana level is rising at normal rates. However,
>some (myself included) have been ascerting that the mana level *is* rising
>faster than normal (and personally I think it's being artificially
>accelerated, pet theory) and that a peak could happen within the next few
>decades. However, in view of current FASA policies on things, I say it'll
>happen when FASA says it happens. Whether it makes any particular sense
>or not.

Alas! (for the last statement) I think Tom Dowd prepared this arrival for a
very short period (perhaps 1999 or 2000). With Mike, the world will be
crunshed before the horrors arrive! :)

>> Number 3 here, Does make ebb and flow like a tide or a Sine curve? or is
>> it more like a saw bade /|/|/|/| (grows then suddenly drops) or a Tangent
>> "curve" (grows very quickly from -infinity, to almost level off at 0,
>> then growth again accelerates faster an faster as you never +infinity.)?
>
> It's a sine curve repeating in cycles of approx 5,128 years for
the up
>cycle (magic) and another 5,128 years for the down cycle (no magic).
>Though I think the "no magic" statement isn't absolute. Some magic may be
>possible in the down cycle, though probably extremely difficult.

There's magic during the low curve. This magic is quite difficult to catch
and depends on many astrological configurations and the like but it does
exist. In Threats, they talk about it with the black lodge and I'm quite
sure to have read it before in a previous sourcebook.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

From:	"Boyd Stephen Smith, Jr." <gilmeth@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:38:54 -0600

Message no. 24 -----Original Message-----
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>

>> And, something that just wushed through my head... What is the date that
>> magic will "Peak" in the SR world? Years away? decades? centuries? I
>> don't like ED references in SR but, if any part of my questions could be
>> answered by extrapolating from some ED material feel free... I just gotta
>> have some answers.

> According to best calculations it won't peak til around 4510. Mike
has
>officially stated that the mana level is rising at normal rates. However,
>some (myself included) have been ascerting that the mana level *is* rising
>faster than normal (and personally I think it's being artificially
>accelerated, pet theory) and that a peak could happen within the next few
>decades. However, in view of current FASA policies on things, I say it'll
>happen when FASA says it happens. Whether it makes any particular sense
>or not.

One thing that I don't think has been covered here is the fact that although
mage may be increaesing at a faster rate than normal (actifically or not)
that does _not_ mean it has to level-off more quickly. This "cycle," aided
by technology and the sheer numbers of beings practising/involved in magic,
could have a magic level _FAR BEYOND_ anything seen before. If Dunkelzahn or
anyone else is performing ED grade magic now, and the cycle will still be as
long and is still a sine curve (very kinda), I would expect that magic far
beyond anything seen before would happen, Imagine powerful mages creating
"pockets" of atmosphere and astral around themselves and traveling through
space. (esp. when you might consider that a similar action my be going on
"other worlds") Or "Rips" in the fabric of the astral or metaplanes
that
allow mundanes to enter them... but, they also allow who knows what to
escape. If indeed magic will be around for another 5000+ years, and magic is
increasing at this rate. Powers unthought of may indeed be possible, at the
height of magic, possibly even commmonplace. Scary ain't it?

From:	s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:03:33 -0600

Message no. 25 Scott Roberts wrote:
>
> On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Ashlocke wrote:
>
> > On 24 Jan 98 at 12:04, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr wrote:
> *stuff snipped*
>
> You know, I don't mind a lot of things, but this has all become a
> *non-issue* now. The FASA-officially-approved explanation of Dunkelzahn's
> demise and everything you ever wanted to know about manaspikes, Locuses,
> and the like can be found in the ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING "Dragon Heart
> Saga" trilogy by listmember Jak Koke. The last book explains--in a very
> excellent manner--how Dunkelzahn's demise occurred. It's credible, it
> fits into the game, and everything else. Now go out and buy "Beyond the
> Pale" and support the pocketbook of one of our listmembers who has gained
> more respect from me for his writing since I read the book :)

This is the best thing to be said on this subject in days. Jak spent the
time and
effort to work this stuff out and explain it in the Dragon Heart Sage.
IMO he did
a first rate job and wrote an excellent story in the process. While the
novels might
not be "Cannon" Jak's saga fits into the game universe very well. I
don't want to
open the cannon/non-cannon debate again.

--

Never Appeal to a man's "better nature" he may not have one.
Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage.

From:	Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:28:52 -0005

Message no. 26 On 27 Jan 98 at 15:57, William Gallas wrote:

> >C) He's dead. Dunkelzahn allowed himself to be killed, knowing that his
> >death would set in motion events that would ultimately fullfil his goals,
> >accomplishing things he couldn't have while alive. This follows B pretty
> >much above, except that he really is dead. (And I'm still betting
> >Harlequin did it)
> >
> > Personally I lean towards option C myself.
>
> Me too but I'm not really conviced by the culpability of H. Such a direct
> action against him doesn't fit with the character. IMO, the opposition
> between Erhan and Queen Alachia could lead us to think the Tir Na Nog's
> elves are responsible. If we look back at ED, we can see that blood wood
> elves were very secretive too and didn't like to share their knowledge
> with others. Anyway, I don't see much people that aren't fine with his
> death.

I wouldn't put anything past H. Frankly I've always thought he was mad
as the Hatter. But my bet on his guilt was based on something Tom Dowd
wrote years past. Briefly, D visits H, they chat, D leaves. After which
H makes the comment "It'll be a shame when we have to kill him."
Apparently this isn't the case from what I understand. Perhaps it was a
plot Tom had going, and with the change in staff, Mike chose a different
route. Hard to say, we may never know. I think this is something that
has confused things a bit in SR... it seems several plot lines have been
reworked mid stream. I may be wrong of course, but IMHO it does seem that
way.

> >
> > According to best calculations it won't peak til around 4510.
> Mike has
> >officially stated that the mana level is rising at normal rates. However,
> >some (myself included) have been ascerting that the mana level *is* rising
> >faster than normal (and personally I think it's being artificially
> >accelerated, pet theory) and that a peak could happen within the next few
> >decades. However, in view of current FASA policies on things, I say it'll
> >happen when FASA says it happens. Whether it makes any particular sense
> >or not.
>
> Alas! (for the last statement) I think Tom Dowd prepared this arrival for
> a very short period (perhaps 1999 or 2000). With Mike, the world will be
> crunshed before the horrors arrive! :)

It seems that way. From what's been said on the list Tom and Mike seem
to have very different view regarding what direction SR should go in.
That's fine with me as long as whoever is in charge keeps the game
creative, intriguing and cohesive. That last bit is the rub though. I
think SR has lost a bit of it's cohesion and consitency in the last few
years. I don't blame anyone in particular for this, it happens,
especially when you have a change in staff with several older staff
members leaving, authors leaving, new staff and authors coming in, etc. I
just hope Mike is able to pull all the "threads" together and weave them
into something as good if not better than what has gone before. No doubt
encouragement from the list couldn't hurt.

>
> There's magic during the low curve. This magic is quite difficult to
> catch and depends on many astrological configurations and the like but it
> does exist. In Threats, they talk about it with the black lodge and I'm
> quite sure to have read it before in a previous sourcebook.

I think the simplest way to put it, in the down cycle there ain't much
mana to go around, so gathering enough to cast a spell is very difficult.
Probably like casting a Force 6 spell, but only getting a Force 2 effect
out of it, but still having to resist Drain for a Force 6 spell (or
something like that). There have been several references and allusions in
various source books to what might have gone on in the down cycle. Of
course, these are all old threads from back when Tom was the DLoH. It's
hard to tell what Mike will do with them, if anything.
--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R

From:	J Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:54:42 -0500

Message no. 27 ----------
> From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: The Big 'D'
> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 9:33 AM
>
> On 27 Jan 98 at 15:57, William Gallas wrote:
>
> > >C) He's dead. Dunkelzahn allowed himself to be killed, knowing that
his
> > >death would set in motion events that would ultimately fullfil his
goals,
> > >accomplishing things he couldn't have while alive. This follows B
pretty
> > >much above, except that he really is dead. (And I'm still betting
> > >Harlequin did it)
> > >
> > > Personally I lean towards option C myself.
> >
> > Me too but I'm not really conviced by the culpability of H. Such a
direct
> > action against him doesn't fit with the character. IMO, the opposition
> > between Erhan and Queen Alachia could lead us to think the Tir Na Nog's
> > elves are responsible. If we look back at ED, we can see that blood
wood
> > elves were very secretive too and didn't like to share their knowledge
> > with others. Anyway, I don't see much people that aren't fine with his
> > death.
>
> I wouldn't put anything past H. Frankly I've always thought he
was mad
> as the Hatter. But my bet on his guilt was based on something Tom Dowd
> wrote years past. Briefly, D visits H, they chat, D leaves. After which
> H makes the comment "It'll be a shame when we have to kill him."
> Apparently this isn't the case from what I understand. Perhaps it was a
> plot Tom had going, and with the change in staff, Mike chose a different
> route. Hard to say, we may never know. I think this is something that
> has confused things a bit in SR... it seems several plot lines have been
> reworked mid stream. I may be wrong of course, but IMHO it does seem
that
> way.
>
> >
>
> Well if you've been reading the Dh series then you all nkow H did not
kill or take part in the assassination oof the "Big D". Hang tight
chummers..in BtP all will be explained..
But, IMHO, D knew about what was coming..(read his will and the reports of
bystanders-> the little old woman who saw the flash and something leaving a
body, shredding of skin), D forced his essance out of his material body
just before the explosion, and is currently cursing up a storm in astral
space since he is now stuck there..or...THe hunter of Great Dragon, we all
know the horros name, is resonsable, not entirely responable, but played a
part in it, in which case we will never see Big D alive in any form
again...

From:	Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:36:15 -0700

Message no. 28 At 12:03 27/01/98 -0600, you wrote:
>This is the best thing to be said on this subject in days. Jak spent the
>time and
>effort to work this stuff out and explain it in the Dragon Heart Sage.
>IMO he did
>a first rate job and wrote an excellent story in the process. While the
>novels might
>not be "Cannon" Jak's saga fits into the game universe very well. I
>don't want to
>open the cannon/non-cannon debate again.

AFAIK -- Novels are 'canon' regarding plot, but not regarding rules.
Otherwise, why would they be written, and stamped with the FASA logo?

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:27:01 +1000

Message no. 29 NightRain writes:
>
>How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
>project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.

At least one way is the Astral Gateway power of free spirits...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons.

From:	Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:19:46 +0000

Message no. 30 On Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:35:08 EST Ereskanti wrote

> In a message dated 98-01-27 05:57:16 EST, nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU writes:
>
> > How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
> > project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.
> >
> > NightRain.
> >
> Is it -Stuck- though? Spiritual Boundaries -do- exist also. What I was
> saying by the statement concerning "not starting a metaplanar quest while
> projecting from the astral", is that a magician is most definitely under a
> different set of rules with the Metaplanes (strange, californian surfer girlie
> "duh", and a swish of hair heard in the background ;). Do those rules
state
> that the body is "Stuck" in the mundane?
>
> Astral Space rules say that when projecting a magician projects into the
> astral, s/he leaves his/her body behind. Everyone has assumed that you -have-
> to use the same rules for the Metaplanes. But with the events of a couple of
> modules now (granted, they surround Harlequin) it is possible to consider that
> we (the standard SR magician) are making that dangerous "assumption" thing
> again.
>
> Yes, it is an interpretation of the rules, but it is not an interpretation
> that goes beyond them. It may or may not go beyond the power level acceptable
> to a particular gaming group and/or session, that depends on said group and/or
> GM (if the GM isn't open to player discussion).

If you think that the body can / does get dragged through to the
metaplanes then why does Grimoire 2 helpfully point out that a
mage survives an astral quest because his essence doesn't go while he
is on the metaplanes. That sort of implies that the astral body
leaves the physical body behind.

> That is what all of my options are centered around. Power Level that is
> acceptable for the group in question after all...

That statement should always be kept in mind. Afterall, one mans
poison is another mans food.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:35:53 -0800

Message no. 31 Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> NightRain writes:
> >
> >How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
> >project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.
>
> At least one way is the Astral Gateway power of free spirits...

Nope. Read the actual power description. All it allows is for people
to project onto the Metaplanes (whether mundane, active or no). Quoted
from the description: "... The traveler is in a trance, his physical
body remaining on the material plane."

-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

From:	Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:20:02 -0800

Message no. 32 At 16:35 1/26/98 -0800, Matb wrote:
>Robert Watkins wrote:
>> NightRain writes:
>> >How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
>> >project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.

>> At least one way is the Astral Gateway power of free spirits...

>Nope. Read the actual power description. All it allows is for people
>to project onto the Metaplanes (whether mundane, active or no). Quoted
>from the description: "... The traveler is in a trance, his physical
>body remaining on the material plane."

In Earthdawn, there are Free Spirits who have Astral Gateway that can actually
dump you places physically. Whether this power works at the SR mana level
is up to the GM...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%

From:	Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:12:09 -0800

Message no. 33 Max Rible wrote:

> >> >How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
> >> >project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.

> In Earthdawn, there are Free Spirits who have Astral Gateway that can actually
> dump you places physically. Whether this power works at the SR mana level
> is up to the GM...

...which plants it firmly in the realm of house rules. By the
guidelines FASA gives for mana levels (whatever those are) in the time
of Shadowrun, the Astral Gateway power doesn't actually move people.

-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

SRTCG Website: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/2189/ccgtop.htm

From:	NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:55:41 +1000

Message no. 34 >>How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
>>project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.
>
>
>At least one way is the Astral Gateway power of free spirits...

It doesn't even remotely suggest that your body goes with you.

NightRain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|The universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Big 'D'
Date:	Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:13:51 +0000

Message no. 35 And verily, did Robert Watkins hastily scribble thusly...
|
|NightRain writes:
|>
|>How exactly is this possible? Your body doesn't go anywhere when you
|>project to a metaplane. It's still stuck in the Real World.
|
|
|At least one way is the Astral Gateway power of free spirits...

Only that doesn't allow PHYSICAL movement.
(It actually says in the description that if a mundane is still on the
astral plane when the spirit stops using the power, he dies because his body
and "spirit" are separated and have no way of rejoining.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 12:48:07 +0200

Message no. 36 Runners,

I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I appologize,
but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead telepathically
let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?

If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD that
he can speak? I'm confused.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 21:16:39 +1000

Message no. 37 -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 8:49 PM
Subject: The Big D

>Runners,
>
>I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I
appologize,
>but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead telepathically
>let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
>
>If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD
that
>he can speak? I'm confused.
>
>DV8

I think that mostly Dunks -wouldn't- talk. He was quite capable of flapping
his lips like a primate, but do you talk to your dog in barks? If there are
details on his show, that would say if he spoke or not, but I can't find
much (read: couldn't be bothered looking).

From:	Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 07:23:28 -0400

Message no. 38 Dennis Steinmeijer wrote:
>
> Runners,
>
> I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I appologize,
> but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead telepathically
> let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
>
> If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD that
> he can speak? I'm confused.

a) D could speak as a normal human when he was in human form.

and

b) When in his normal form Nadja served as his voice, which is to say
he was speaking not her.

--
Iridios
--
"There's no such thing as an innocent user" (Dark Avenger, in a
Wired interview)

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:21:08 AM/61:03:00 (1) [no thud]

From:	Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 13:18:35 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)

Message no. 39 On Wed, 17 May 2000, Simon and Fiona wrote:
> From: Dennis Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl>
> >Runners,
> >
> >I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I
> appologize,
> >but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead telepathically
> >let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
> >
> >If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD
> that
> >he can speak? I'm confused.
>
> I think that mostly Dunks -wouldn't- talk. He was quite capable of flapping
> his lips like a primate, but do you talk to your dog in barks? If there are
> details on his show, that would say if he spoke or not, but I can't find
> much (read: couldn't be bothered looking).
>
I must admit I couldn't be bothered either. But I'm fairly sure that the
reason he has an interpreter is that dragons can't talk but only use
telepathy. Maybe it's even in the discription of them in the rulebook.

But what the reference that he speaks could be is that he assumed human
form, and then I would assume that he could speak, and fit into a limo.

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 13:27:08 +0200

Message no. 40 Thanks for the "couldn't be bothered"s and information. I have a fairly good
idea now.

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 21:41:37 +1000

Message no. 41 -----Original Message-----
From: Peter Kristiansen <sds@**.auc.dk>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: The Big D

>On Wed, 17 May 2000, Simon and Fiona wrote:
>> From: Dennis Steinmeijer <dv8@********.nl>
>> >Runners,
>> >
>> >I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I
>> appologize,
>> >but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead
telepathically
>> >let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
>> >
>> >If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD
>> that
>> >he can speak? I'm confused.
>>
>> I think that mostly Dunks -wouldn't- talk. He was quite capable of
flapping
>> his lips like a primate, but do you talk to your dog in barks? If there
are
>> details on his show, that would say if he spoke or not, but I can't find
>> much (read: couldn't be bothered looking).
>>
>I must admit I couldn't be bothered either. But I'm fairly sure that the
>reason he has an interpreter is that dragons can't talk but only use
>telepathy. Maybe it's even in the discription of them in the rulebook.
>
>But what the reference that he speaks could be is that he assumed human
>form, and then I would assume that he could speak, and fit into a limo.
>
>-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----

If you accept the Earthdawn books as Shadowrun's history, then the ED
sourcebook Dragons says that dragons can talk like men (though apparently
they preferred to talk in modern German, if their names are anything to go
by :?))

From:	Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 07:05:56 -0500

Message no. 42 From: Simon and Fiona
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 6:17 AM

> >...but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead
> >telepathically let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
> >
> >If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in
> >DS:POAD that he can speak? I'm confused.
>
> I think that mostly Dunks -wouldn't- talk. He was quite capable
> of flapping his lips like a primate, but do you talk to your dog
> in barks?

He was quite capable of flapping his lips *AS* a primate. Don't forget, he
frequently assumed human form, especially for the election.

> If there are details on his show, that would say if he spoke or not,
> but I can't find much (read: couldn't be bothered looking).

See above, re: shapechanging.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

From:	Phil pames@*****.net
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 07:42:07 -0500

Message no. 43 At 12:48 PM 5/17/2000 +0200, you wrote:
>Runners,
>
>I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I appologize,
>but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead telepathically
>let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
>
>If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD that
>he can speak? I'm confused.
>
>DV8

As I understand it, he could speak and be understood telepathically, but
there was a slight problem: Telepathy doesn't play on the Trid. The Voice
thing grew out of that.

Phil

From:	Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 14:54:48 +0200

Message no. 44 From: "Phil" <pames@*****.net>
> As I understand it, he could speak and be understood telepathically, but
> there was a slight problem: Telepathy doesn't play on the Trid. The Voice
> thing grew out of that.

That's what I thought too,...or at least somewhat like that. But in DS:POAD
there is a part where they mention him talking on the phone before he gets
into the limo before it blows up. If his telepathy doesn't go through
trid,..then it won't go through phone either. So either he must be able to
speak normally, but then I don't understand why he has Nadja Daviar as his
voice, or DS:POAD is wrong, which I think is highly unlikely.

I'm just going to keep it on:

he can speak in human guise, so he doesn't need Nadja,
he can't speak in dragon form, so he does need Nadja...ergo: stay in human
form!

DV8

"Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful Goodness is,..."
- John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Jkmiland@*.com Jkmiland@*.com
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 08:56:33 EDT

Message no. 45 In a message dated 5/17/00 5:55:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dv8@********.nl
writes:

> That's what I thought too,...or at least somewhat like that. But in DS:POAD
> there is a part where they mention him talking on the phone before he gets
> into the limo before it blows up. If his telepathy doesn't go through
> trid,..then it won't go through phone either. So either he must be able to

That's because he was in human form at the time.

From:	Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 09:28:27 -0400

Message no. 46 > That's what I thought too,...or at least somewhat like that. But in DS:POAD
> there is a part where they mention him talking on the phone before he gets
> into the limo before it blows up. If his telepathy doesn't go through
> trid,..then it won't go through phone either. So either he must be able to
> speak normally, but then I don't understand why he has Nadja Daviar as his
> voice, or DS:POAD is wrong, which I think is highly unlikely.

They're all right.

> he can speak in human guise, so he doesn't need Nadja,

Correct.

> he can't speak in dragon form, so he does need Nadja

Correct.

> ...ergo: stay in human form!

Which is not particularly a fun option for most dragons. As an example,
picture wearing a costume all the time. Sure, you can do it, but it'd
be really uncomfortable after a while and you'd want to get out of it
and stretch. Same thing for a dragon. 'sides, which invokes more awe?
A dragon in normal form, or some schmuck who looks human but is a
dragon? Much easier to remember he's a dragon when he looks like one.

Bai Shen

From:	Brian T Sniffen brians@***.EDU
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	17 May 2000 11:10:52 -0400

Message no. 47 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net> writes:

> He was quite capable of flapping his lips *AS* a primate. Don't forget, he
> frequently assumed human form, especially for the election.

That's odd... one of Tom Dowd's short stories ("Wyrm Talk," I think)
features Dunklezahn visiting Harlequin. The Big D managed to surprise
Harlequin's um...friend by shapeshifting. Harlequin's um...friend is
apparantly the daughter of Ehran the Scribe; certainly, if any child
of the Sixth Age is going to know that Great Dragons can take
Name-giver forms, it would be her --- yet she seems clueless, and
Dunklezahn refers to the ability as a near-secret.

I don't think the Great Dragons' abilities were entirely public
knowledge; rather, in my campaigns the assumption is that Dunklezahn
was able to change his size, while remaining the same shape. Hence,
the public believes he was about the size of a large dog when his limo
exploded.

-Brian

From:	David M. Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 11:25:32 -0400

Message no. 48 Brian T Sniffen wrote:

> That's odd... one of Tom Dowd's short stories ("Wyrm Talk," I think)
> features Dunklezahn visiting Harlequin. The Big D managed to surprise
> Harlequin's um...friend by shapeshifting. Harlequin's um...friend is
> apparantly the daughter of Ehran the Scribe; certainly, if any child
> of the Sixth Age is going to know that Great Dragons can take
> Name-giver forms, it would be her --- yet she seems clueless, and
> Dunklezahn refers to the ability as a near-secret.

> -Brian

At that point in time, it may have been. I also remember in "Never Deal
with a Dragon" Sam Verner being completely amazed at seeing a dragon in
human form. The way I look at it, however, is that Dunk's presidential
campaign changed all that. IIRC from the Dragonheart Trilogy, Dunk is in
human form at the inauguration. The campaign may have made it not worth
it for Dunk to keep the secret anymore.

---Dave ('s not here man)

From:	Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 11:29:18 -0400

Message no. 49 At 11:10 AM 5/17/2000, Brian T Sniffen wrote:
>"Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net> writes:
>
> > He was quite capable of flapping his lips *AS* a primate. Don't forget, he
> > frequently assumed human form, especially for the election.
>
>That's odd... one of Tom Dowd's short stories ("Wyrm Talk," I think)
>features Dunklezahn visiting Harlequin. The Big D managed to surprise
>Harlequin's um...friend by shapeshifting. Harlequin's um...friend is
>apparantly the daughter of Ehran the Scribe; certainly, if any child
>of the Sixth Age is going to know that Great Dragons can take
>Name-giver forms, it would be her --- yet she seems clueless, and
>Dunklezahn refers to the ability as a near-secret.

Is it an ability or a spell (not that there is much difference with great
dragons)? And there was a lot that she was not told about. She's just the
apprentice.

>I don't think the Great Dragons' abilities were entirely public
>knowledge; rather, in my campaigns the assumption is that Dunklezahn
>was able to change his size, while remaining the same shape. Hence,
>the public believes he was about the size of a large dog when his limo
>exploded.

In several of the novels and sourcebooks they explicitly describe him
taking human form, once even dancing at one of the Inauguration Balls. In
the second adventure book they even mention that he was taking human shape
more as the campaign went on to try and make people more comfort bale with him.

There were probably two reasons why he would not want to have done this
earlier (especially when running the Wyrm Talk show). First, he was one of
the first beings out there describing what was going on. I'm sure that the
public had enough trouble dealing with an intelligent dragon, let alone one
that could assume human shape.

The second is the sheer majesty of it. How much do you pay attention to a
guy who looks human, but can cast large spells. Sure its rare, but he still
looks like almost any other human. Now when you have a DRAGON on the TV, so
different that he has to have a human talk for him, now THAT's
entertainment! ;)

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.

From:	Scot Hayworth scoth@*********.com
Subject:	The Big D
Date:	Wed, 17 May 2000 10:27:31 -0600

Message no. 50 From: "Phil" <pames@*****.net>
> As I understand it, he could speak and be understood telepathically, but
> there was a slight problem: Telepathy doesn't play on the Trid. The Voice
> thing grew out of that.

> That's what I thought too,...or at least somewhat like that. But in
DS:POAD

Um, what is DS:POAD is this the will?

sorry for this interruption.

Scot (has been out of SR since just before the election.)

Message no. 51 Scot Hayworth wrote:

> Um, what is DS:POAD is this the will?

Dunkelzanhn's Secrets: Portfolio of a Dragon

---D('snhm)

Message no. 52 On Wed, 17 May 2000 14:54:48 +0200 "Dennis Steinmeijer" <dv8@********.nl>
writes:
<SNIP>
> he can speak in human guise, so he doesn't need Nadja,
> he can't speak in dragon form, so he does need Nadja...ergo: stay in
> human
> form!

Dunk's probably not all that comfortable talking as a monkey. Most likely
he talks just fine, but doesn't quite have the right body language. So,
for personal comfort, and as not to send the wrong signals, Dunkelzahn
talks telepathically to Nadja and she speaks with all the right body
language. :)

It was good move picking a woman as his voice, too. You have all the
power and respect/fear that comes from talking to a great dragon, the sex
appeal of Dunk's human form, and Nadja's feminine allure. It seems to me
like they have all the bases covered. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 53 >From: "Dennis Steinmeijer" <dv8@********.nl>
>I have a question and perhaps it has been asked before...if so I
>appologize,
>but isn't it true that Dunkelzahn couldn't talk and instead telepathically
>let his thoughts be voiced by Nadja Daviar?
>
>If that is true,...then how come I find all these references in DS:POAD
>that
>he can speak? I'm confused.

I'm pretty sure that dragons in human form can speak, its only when they're
being big and scaly that they use telepathy. Only great dragons can take
human form (AFWK) so normal ones have to use telepathy.

*Phil crosses his fingers and tries to look like he knows what hes talking
about*

Phil
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Message no. 54 Scot Hayworth wrote:

> Um, what is DS:POAD is this the will?
>
Dunkelzahn's Secrets: Portofolio of a Dragon
One of the gretest supplements I ever read.
It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and the aftermath of his
death.

the wiz

Message no. 55 Manolis Skoulikas wrote:

> It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and the aftermath of his
> death.

There's a great smartass comment hiding in the second section of the
above sentence, but I'm too tired to dig it out right now...

---Dave ('s not here man)

Message no. 56 -----Original Message-----
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, May 18, 2000 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: The Big D

>At 11:10 AM 5/17/2000, Brian T Sniffen wrote:
>>"Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net> writes:
>>
>> > He was quite capable of flapping his lips *AS* a primate. Don't
forget, he
>> > frequently assumed human form, especially for the election.
>>
>>That's odd... one of Tom Dowd's short stories ("Wyrm Talk," I think)
>>features Dunklezahn visiting Harlequin. The Big D managed to surprise
>>Harlequin's um...friend by shapeshifting. Harlequin's um...friend is
>>apparantly the daughter of Ehran the Scribe; certainly, if any child
>>of the Sixth Age is going to know that Great Dragons can take
>>Name-giver forms, it would be her --- yet she seems clueless, and
>>Dunklezahn refers to the ability as a near-secret.
>
One of the cooler stories that I read was in the "Into the Shadows"
anthology. The mage guy narrator was having a hard time getting along with
Jarleth Drake, and was trying to steal his lovely assistant away from him.
All throughthe story he's giving "Lattie" shit, and coming on to the girl.
Then there is a helecopter attack at the end, Drake smiles and throws the
narrator a magic ring, smiles, and turns back into a dragon (Dunky). After
that, the narrator finds a nice big rock to hide under, because he realises
what he'd been pissing off all that time. A nice twist to the typical action
hero steals the girl from the arsehole corp guy story, I thought.

Message no. 57 From: Brian T Sniffen
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:11 AM

> Harlequin's um...friend is apparantly the daughter of Ehran the
> Scribe; certainly, if any child of the Sixth Age is going to know
> that Great Dragons can take Name-giver forms, it would be her ---
> yet she seems clueless, and Dunklezahn refers to the ability as a
> near-secret.

Frosty's a bad example, since she has no idea whatsoever of her heritage or
her potential. Not to mention that Harelquin hasn't *told* her a lot of
things. He's bad about that sort of thing.

> I don't think the Great Dragons' abilities were entirely public
> knowledge; rather, in my campaigns the assumption is that Dunklezahn
> was able to change his size, while remaining the same shape. Hence,
> the public believes he was about the size of a large dog when his limo
> exploded.

Which doesn't jive with canonical texts about him being in human form at the
Inaugural ball.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

Message no. 58 > > It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and the
aftermath of his death.
>
> There's a great smartass comment hiding in the
second section of the above sentence, but I'm too
tired to dig it out right now...
> ---Dave ('s not here man)

You know I'd do it, Dave, but it's just too easy...

*Doc' drives his Conestoga through the opening Wiz left...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 59 <snip>

> I'm just going to keep it on:
>
> he can speak in human guise, so he doesn't need
> Nadja,
> he can't speak in dragon form, so he does need
> Nadja...ergo: stay in human
> form!
>
> DV8

But if it's draining or irritating, itchy maybe to be
in human form for prolonged periods of time, then I
could understand needing Nadja. <conspiracy theory>
But maybe she was just an immortal elf that he wanted
to keep around for looks.<end conspiracy theory>

I've seen this line several places, and I use it often
in real life. "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean
they're not out to get me."

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 60 > > Um, what is DS:POAD is this the will?
> >
> Dunkelzahn's Secrets: Portofolio of a Dragon
> One of the gretest supplements I ever read.
> It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and the
> aftermath of his
> death.
>
> the wiz

It's probably the only source book that I've read all
the way through 4 times. I pick new information and
conspiracy theories out of it each time I read it.

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 61 Ever imagine being something your not?
It ain't itchy, Raveness. It's just damn wierd for Dunkelzahn to have to
wear clothes.
Let's face it, most humans aren't terribly happy with clothes. And people
who get inaugurated
as president of something generally have to wear suits or tuxedos. Not
exactly comfy, even from a good tailor.
Magic offers some simple alternitives,of course. But fashion spells still
leave you wearing clothes,
and the illusion sphere tends to be a bother to maintain.

And let's not even get into the bother of learning to walk on two legs. I
know Dunkelzahn learned to dance for the inaugural,but that had to have
taken a hell of a long time.

And I'm gonna have to leave the obscenely biological for another post.

(Pistol Packin')COWBOY
CJ
Arkades@****.com

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Message no. 62 From: "Simon and Fiona" <sfuller@******.com.au>

> One of the cooler stories that I read was in the "Into the Shadows"
> anthology. The mage guy narrator was having a hard time getting along with
> Jarleth Drake, and was trying to steal his lovely assistant away from him.
> All throughthe story he's giving "Lattie" shit, and coming on to the girl.
> Then there is a helecopter attack at the end, Drake smiles and throws the
> narrator a magic ring, smiles, and turns back into a dragon (Dunky). After
> that, the narrator finds a nice big rock to hide under, because he realises
> what he'd been pissing off all that time. A nice twist to the typical action
> hero steals the girl from the arsehole corp guy story, I thought.
>

That wasn't Dunky. That was the late, lamented Haesslich.

It *was* a cool, story, though. :)

--Rat, resident dragon fiend

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<

Message no. 63 Simon and Fiona wrote:
>
> One of the cooler stories that I read was in the "Into the Shadows"
> anthology. The mage guy narrator was having a hard time getting along with
> Jarleth Drake, and was trying to steal his lovely assistant away from him.
> All throughthe story he's giving "Lattie" shit, and coming on to the girl.
> Then there is a helecopter attack at the end, Drake smiles and throws the
> narrator a magic ring, smiles, and turns back into a dragon (Dunky).

Actually, it was Haesslich, who flew off to tangle with the helicopter.
That scene, btw, is depicted on the front of the softcover edition.

Poor Wolfgang...

--Fenris
______________________________________________Fenris@************.virtualAve.net
(>) Life is a Series of rude Awakenings.
(>) Haesslich

Message no. 64 -----Original Message-----
From: Logan Graves <logan1@********.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: The Big D

>
>Actually, it was Haesslich, who flew off to tangle with the helicopter.
>That scene, btw, is depicted on the front of the softcover edition.
>
>Poor Wolfgang...
>
> --Fenris

I thought I had it wrong, but give me a break, it's a good three meters to
my SR novels from my computer. I'm not going that far just to verify facts
:?)

Message no. 65 In article <20000518.154117.-312721.1.Arkades@****.com>, C J Tipton
<arkades@****.com> writes
>Let's face it, most humans aren't terribly happy with clothes.

I'm happier with them than without, in general :) Naked = _cold_, to say
nothing of the insect bites, and scratches and stings from passing
vegetation...

>And people
>who get inaugurated
>as president of something generally have to wear suits or tuxedos. Not
>exactly comfy, even from a good tailor.

Actually, a _good_ suit is a very comfortable garment. (A _bad_ one is
purgatory, of course...)

--
Paul J. Adam

Message no. 66 In article <20000518.154117.-312721.1.Arkades@****.com>, C J Tipton
<arkades@****.com> writes
>Let's face it, most humans aren't terribly happy with clothes.

I'm happier with them than without, in general :) Naked = _cold_, to say
nothing of the insect bites, and scratches and stings from passing
vegetation...

>And people
>who get inaugurated
>as president of something generally have to wear suits or tuxedos. Not
>exactly comfy, even from a good tailor.

Actually, a _good_ suit is a very comfortable garment. (A _bad_ one is
purgatory, of course...)

--
Paul J. Adam

My point, more simply stated, was that dragons do not grow up wearing
clothing.
Ever seen kids put clothes on a dog? You'll note that the dog looks
generally disatisfied with the event.

Taking that into account, initially Nadia Daviar and her predecessor
might have been very useful to Big D,
whose natural form of communication is telepathy anyway. With all the
meanings that humans tend to apply to
things like mode of dress, tone of voice, physical appearance, and
posture, it would be far more intelligent for the dragon to speak
telepathically in his natural form. It is easy for a person to draw
conclusions from another persons
speech,posture and dress due to familiarity. But until the interviews
with Dunkelzahn, nobody had any idea what
a dragon leaning forward and raising an eyebrow might mean. Face it, the
dragon needed a little time to learn
modern human social behavior, and while he learned, he needed a voice.

(I am just a)COWBOY
CJ
Arkades@****.com

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Message no. 67 -----Original Message-----
From: C J Tipton <arkades@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, May 21, 2000 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: the Big D

>speech,posture and dress due to familiarity. But until the interviews
>with Dunkelzahn, nobody had any idea what
>a dragon leaning forward and raising an eyebrow might mean. Face it, the
>dragon needed a little time to learn
>modern human social behavior, and while he learned, he needed a voice.
>
>(I am just a)COWBOY
>CJ

A good example of a dragon's different body language is this: Ground birds
(roosters and cassowaries at least) look down toward the ground, scratch
around a bit, and generally look and sound worried. This means they are
about to attack you. Warning body language is completely different to that
of mammals. I'd say dragons would be different as well.

Message no. 68 :>Let's face it, most humans aren't terribly happy with clothes.

IIRC, in the Dragon's Sourcebook, the Outcast exhibits his abiltity to
assume human (actually, dwarven) form, and when doing so apeears as a well
dressed dwarf. The clothes are PART of the magic, IOW.

Mongoose

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Message no. 69 From: Sebastian Wiers
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2000 10:20 PM

> :>Let's face it, most humans aren't terribly happy with clothes.
>
> IIRC, in the Dragon's Sourcebook, the Outcast exhibits his abiltity to
> assume human (actually, dwarven) form, and when doing so apeears as a
> well dressed dwarf. The clothes are PART of the magic, IOW.

I don't think that Vasdenjas is the same dragon as the Outcast, Mongoose,
but I remember the scene you describe nonetheless.

Similarly, in "Wyrm Talk," when Dunkelzahn assumes human form in front of
Frosty, he's described as being in a very nice, very expensive suit.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe

Message no. 70 >From: "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
>Similarly, in "Wyrm Talk," when Dunkelzahn assumes human form in front of
>Frosty, he's described as being in a very nice, very expensive suit.

In that case it may as well be a physical mask spell instead of pysically
changing shape. 'Sept of course if you are several meters long and a few
wide it doesn't matter how many people or even cameras believe you can, you
ain't going to fit through Harlequin's doorway.

I therefore think that dragons do a Talis Cat and have an innate modified
mask spell that physicly changes the body, except being smart, Dragons can
modify this as they see fit.

Phil (who has long since given up on French).
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Message no. 71 Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > > It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and the
> aftermath of his death.
> >
> > There's a great smartass comment hiding in the
> second section of the above sentence, but I'm too
> tired to dig it out right now...
> > ---Dave ('s not here man)
>
> You know I'd do it, Dave, but it's just too easy...
>
> *Doc' drives his Conestoga through the opening Wiz left...*
>
Talk about crossing your Tees!!
:)))

OK! for the reocord, it should read:
" It's about the will, the enforcement of it and the
aftermath of his death."

I just got the "T" in the wrong place is all.
Now I will be known to humanity as "the Big T"
:)))

As concerns the Conestoga thing or whatever that might be
I test my case...
I mean I rest my face...
Sorry I meant: I pest-eye-race...
<quicly he is degenerating>

"OK mister you just put your hands in those nice little white pajamas
and we'll take you some place nice and quiet!"

Btw Anyone who can say what is a "lapsus linguae"
will get a bonus...
Anyone?

the Wiz (aka the Big Z,er... B, er...no, no that's Teeee!!)

Message no. 72 On Sun, 21 May 2000 16:35:17 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
> In that case it may as well be a physical mask spell instead of
> pysically
> changing shape. 'Sept of course if you are several meters long and
> a few
> wide it doesn't matter how many people or even cameras believe you
> can, you
> ain't going to fit through Harlequin's doorway.
>
> I therefore think that dragons do a Talis Cat and have an innate
> modified
> mask spell that physicly changes the body, except being smart,
> Dragons can
> modify this as they see fit.

Well, if you accept Dragon as good for SR as well as ED, then dragons
don't have "spells" they form the mana when they need it into a spell
effect. Also, a dragon could cast a generic shapechange spell, and also
another spell (such as fashion) to make clothes (or, use a mask for
clothes)
A Talis cat is really a small cat, that masks itself in the illusion of
a big cat. If a dragon could appear as a human, he'd still be full size
(as you mention) and various dragons have ridden in cars too small for a
dragon.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 73 According to Phil Smith, at 16:35 on 21 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> I therefore think that dragons do a Talis Cat and have an innate modified
> mask spell that physicly changes the body, except being smart, Dragons can
> modify this as they see fit.

The dragon Masaru has a power called Human Form in his stats in
Cyberpirates (page 148).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
when she told me, "mad and meaningless as ever"
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 74 > > > > It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and
the aftermath of his death.
> > >
> > > There's a great smartass comment hiding in the
second section of the above sentence, but I'm too
tired to dig it out right now...
> > > ---Dave ('s not here man)
> >
> > You know I'd do it, Dave, but it's just too
easy...
> >
> > *Doc' drives his Conestoga through the opening Wiz
left...*

> As concerns the Conestoga thing or whatever that
might be

Just FYI, T, the Conestoga is the 2 storey-tall road
train that was mentioned on the list of late. I think
you get my point now. ;)

> Btw Anyone who can say what is a "lapsus linguae"
will get a bonus... Anyone?
> the Wiz (aka the Big Z,er... B, er...no, no that's
Teeee!!)

Uh...sounds like it translates as "lingual lapse",
more or less directly.

Ummm...a brain fart?

*Doc' just couldn't resist it..."Hey, it's a fart
joke...I mean, come on! Just the sound of the word
makes you wanna crack up and fall down laughing. Fart.
Fart. Jeez, whoever came up with that one was a bloody
genius..."

Doc' wanders away muttering "Fart" to himself and
giggling insanely...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 75 On Mon, 22 May 2000, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > >
> > > *Doc' drives his Conestoga through the opening Wiz
> left...*
>
> > As concerns the Conestoga thing or whatever that
> might be
>
> Just FYI, T, the Conestoga is the 2 storey-tall road
> train that was mentioned on the list of late. I think
> you get my point now. ;)
>
Actually Conestoga also makes the Trailblazer. A much more apropriate
sized vehicle with regard to normal roads. (I know, I know - that wasn't
what they discussed here..)

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P

Message no. 76 On Fri, 19 May 2000 00:14:10 +0300 Manolis Skoulikas
<great_worm@*****.com> writes:
> Rand Ratinac wrote:
> >
> > > > It's about he will, the enforcement of tit and the
> > > > aftermath of his death.
<SNIP>
> Talk about crossing your Tees!!
> :)))
>
> OK! for the reocord, it should read:
> " It's about the will, the enforcement of it and the
> aftermath of his death."
<SNIP>

Damn ... and I was getting ready to form the tit enforcement squad and
everything ... :)

"I'm with the T.E.S.; I'm going to have to inspect those ..." ;)

/me runs like hell ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 77 At 00:14 2000-05-19 +0300, Manolis Skoulikas wrote:
>
>Btw Anyone who can say what is a "lapsus linguae"
>will get a bonus...
>Anyone?

"Slip of the tongue".

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *

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