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Message no. 1
From: Pepe Barbe a19960615@****.edu.pe
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:07:37 -0500
Hello Everyone (again)!

Thanks for the answers to my previous post, they have been truly
enlightening helping me in gain my GMhood. :)

Now I have another question. What ways do you use to lay the consequences
of PCs actions AND make the players feel this consequences?

For instance. In my party there is one Shaman that has chosen a totem (not
canonical) that imposes a lot of morality on her behaviour. The player has
called his type of character a Street Paladin, has chosen a turf in a very
low lifestyle zone and has sworn to protect it against any kind of evil.
The thing was that in her turf there was also a troll gang with delusions
of greatness that was getting involved with very big drug distribution
cartel. They were selling all the stuff around her turf, and she decided to
go after them. What she did is bomb the trolls, killing many of them
(including the leader). Afterwards the gang being left leaderless dissolved
leaving the zone without official owner, what inititated a gang war that
lasted a few months and killed a lot of locals.

I thought the PC would acknowledge that all of this happened because of her
actions, and would try to mend them in some way. But she ignored it. What
do you think should have happened?

Pepe
Message no. 2
From: Tobias Diekershoff Tobias.D@********.de
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 08:48:58 +0100
On 10 Jan 01 at 18:07, Pepe Barbe wrote:

> For instance. In my party there is one Shaman that has chosen a totem (not
> canonical) that imposes a lot of morality on her behaviour. The player has
> called his type of character a Street Paladin, has chosen a turf in a very
> low lifestyle zone and has sworn to protect it against any kind of evil.
> The thing was that in her turf there was also a troll gang with delusions
> of greatness that was getting involved with very big drug distribution
> cartel. They were selling all the stuff around her turf, and she decided to
> go after them. What she did is bomb the trolls, killing many of them
> (including the leader). Afterwards the gang being left leaderless dissolved
> leaving the zone without official owner, what inititated a gang war that
> lasted a few months and killed a lot of locals.
>
> I thought the PC would acknowledge that all of this happened because of her
> actions, and would try to mend them in some way. But she ignored it. What
> do you think should have happened?

As she is a Shaman, send her bad dreams, were the totem shows the
consequences.

Or let the peoples in the streets talk bad over the protector, or
over the horrobly things the gang did during the war.

> Pepe

- Tobias

---------
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d
Message no. 3
From: Sven De Herdt sven.deherdt@******.com
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:42:45 +0100
Pepe Barbe wrote:

<snip>

> I thought the PC would acknowledge that all of this happened
> because of her
> actions, and would try to mend them in some way. But she
> ignored it. What do you think should have happened?

If it would really upset the totem and its way of life, then I would limit
its aid to the character for a short while, fi. instead of 2 additional dice
for totem related actions the PC only gets 1.

All it could take to get the full assistance of the totem back that the PC
acknowledges his/her fault and realizes other means/ways should have been
used/followed.

Just my thoughts,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 4
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 10:15:29 -0500
> If it would really upset the totem and its way of life, then I would limit
> its aid to the character for a short while, fi. instead of 2
> additional dice for totem related actions the PC only gets 1.
>
> All it could take to get the full assistance of the totem back that the PC
> acknowledges his/her fault and realizes other means/ways should have been
> used/followed.

Good ideas, but if you use them, you need to decide one thing: what does the
totem think the appropriate action was in handling the troll gang? It may
be, in fact, that the totem totally supports the actions of the player. She
saw evil and destroyed it. Period. That may be the way the totem thinks. The
fact that the end result was more evil does not, necessarily, make it an act
against the totem. The failure of the player was to ignore the .new. evil
(which, depending on your point of view, is either the resulting gang war or
the player herself, or both). On the other hand, the totem might find the
fact that she engaged in murder to be evil. "Evil" is not a well defined
concept.

A lot here depends on the totem, so it would help if you could provide a
description of the totem's personality.

Wordman
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nexx)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu Jan 11 12:42:26 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wordman"

> > All it could take to get the full assistance of the totem back that the
PC
> > acknowledges his/her fault and realizes other means/ways should have
been
> > used/followed.
>
> Good ideas, but if you use them, you need to decide one thing: what does
the
> totem think the appropriate action was in handling the troll gang? It may
> be, in fact, that the totem totally supports the actions of the player.
She
> saw evil and destroyed it. Period.

I'll agree with the Wordman, here, but I would also add that if the
character isn't acting to ameliorate the damage caused by her actions, then
she's even more in violation than if she had simply done it and there was no
fallout.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu Jan 11 14:12:03 2001
On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:07:37 -0500
Pepe Barbe <a19960615@****.edu.pe> wrote:

>
> I thought the PC would acknowledge that all of this happened because of her
> actions, and would try to mend them in some way. But she ignored it. What
> do you think should have happened?
>
> Pepe

Well, proper behaviour for your Street Paladin would be
_talking_ to the gang first... If they refused despite the character's
pleas, there would certainly be conflict between the gang and the PC,
but she'd have to use "clean" tactics. Terrorism is out.

Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Phil Smith)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu Jan 11 15:12:12 2001
>From: Pepe Barbe <a19960615@****.edu.pe>
>Now I have another question. What ways do you use to lay the consequences
>of PCs actions AND make the players feel this consequences?

SR isn't a particularly moral game; it doesn't presume to dictate what is
right and wrong and leaves the players to decide how their character feels.
If you want the player to feel bad, describe the events to them, maybe
pointing them in the direction with a little "so I guess you're feeling
pretty bad now?"

>I thought the PC would acknowledge that all of this happened because of her
>actions, and would try to mend them in some way. But she ignored it. What
>do you think should have happened?

If she chose not to act then that's her call. The great thing about shamen
is that you can torment her about not feeling guilty, and then dock her
totem advantages if she does not see the error of her ways.

I guess it depends on the kind of game you want to play as well. If you're
guiding moral characters through a world of corruption I guess you should
make her realize what she did. OTOH, if you want to play it like the real
world, don't dictate their emotions to them; one of my PCs has done a little
drug dealing himself. If he keeps it up (and I hope he's listening :)>)
either one of his neighbours will call the police or his fixer, who he gets
the drugs from, will get word and take actions to protect her monopoly. But
I'm not going to go out of my way to make him feel bad about what he has
done becuase that is for him to decide.

Phil

Since most of my face never gets a chance to heal, I've got nothing to lose
in the looks department. My boss, at work, he asked me what I was doing
about the hole through my cheek that never heals. When I drink coffee, I
told him, I put two fingers over the hole so it won't leak.
_________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu Jan 11 17:42:00 2001
At 10:15 a.m. 11/01/01, Wordman wrote:
>A lot here depends on the totem, so it would help if you could provide a
>description of the totem's personality.

I wasn't only asking about this particular event, but also about ways of
making consequences seem realistic so PCs will later think twice about the
approach they are taking to solve a particular matter. Is taking away their
toys (that is: foci, cyberware, magic rating, totem dice, weapons,
vehicles, drones, decks, etc) the only way to make a PC feel the consequences?

Pepe
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wordman)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu Jan 11 18:42:09 2001
> At 10:15 a.m. 11/01/01, Wordman wrote:
> >A lot here depends on the totem, so it would help if you could provide a
> >description of the totem's personality.
>
> I wasn't only asking about this particular event, but also about ways of
> making consequences seem realistic so PCs will later think twice
> about the approach they are taking to solve a particular matter.
> Is taking away their toys (that is: foci, cyberware, magic rating,
> totem dice, weapons, vehicles, drones, decks, etc) the only way
> to make a PC feel the consequences?

For some PCs, yes. But, it depends on the consequences and the actions. One
very useful tool, especially in Shadowrun, is a loss of contacts. Or, at
least, contacts change the way they interact with the player, no longer
being as forthcoming. This can be tough to do, but the idea should be to
play the contact in such a way that the player will eventually say "what's
wrong?" or "are you OK?" to the contact. If they do that, then the
.contact.
can tell them what they screwed up and why its bad. They can also hint (or
blatantly say) that they no longer trust the runner because of it (or
something similar).

This, in essence, is taking away a "toy" they the character spent points
(probably) to get, but works in a more role-playing fashion. It also tends
to be how things work in real life. I've had my girlfriend say "why were you
being rude to the sales guy?" when I had no idea I even _was_ being rude to
the sales guy.

Wordman
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Thu Jan 11 20:42:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> > Good ideas, but if you use them, you need to
decide one thing: what does the totem think the
appropriate action was in handling the troll gang? It
may be, in fact, that the totem totally supports the
actions of the player. She saw evil and destroyed it.
Period.
>
> I'll agree with the Wordman, here, but I would also
add that if the character isn't acting to ameliorate
the damage caused by her actions, then she's even more
in violation than if she had simply done it and there
was no fallout.
<Nexx>

Uh, Nexx, that was entirely Wordman's point. You could
well be right, but his example where the totem could
simply have wanted her to destroy the original gang
could also be correct. What he was saying is we need
more info on the totem's POV in order to figure out
which of the diverse possibilities is correct.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Fri Jan 12 11:12:00 2001
>>Is taking away their
toys (that is: foci, cyberware, magic rating, totem dice, weapons,
vehicles, drones, decks, etc) the only way to make a PC feel the
consequences?>>

This depends greatly upon the players. With anyone I've ever GMed over? YES! And be
prepared to hear a LOT of bitching and moaning about it too... At least until they realize
that that's the sort of thing you're going to be doing and that you ARE doing it fairly.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Fri Jan 12 11:42:00 2001
On Thu, 11 Jan 2001, Pepe Barbe wrote:

> I wasn't only asking about this particular event, but also about ways of
> making consequences seem realistic so PCs will later think twice about the
> approach they are taking to solve a particular matter. Is taking away their
> toys (that is: foci, cyberware, magic rating, totem dice, weapons,
> vehicles, drones, decks, etc) the only way to make a PC feel the consequences?

No, but in order for the PC's to feel the consequences, you need
to have them affect the PC in some way. A remorseless killer isn't going
to care if he finds out that the guy he whacked had a wife and kids to
support. But he might care about a city-wide manhunt to find the man's
killer.
Part of the challenge of making PC's feel the consequences of
their actions is letting the players know that their actions actually
*have* consequences. Too often I hear of GM's complain that their PC's
seem to operate largely in a vaccuum, doing whatever they want without any
thought as to the ramifications.
It sounds like you have at least the beginnings down - the group
fails runs, so they get fewer juicy deals and less pay. That's a
consequence, and a damn good one because it makes sense.
Consequences have to affect the players to really be felt and
understood. Also, when at all possible arrange it such that the players
know that they are ultimately responsible for what is happening to them.
If you can make it clear to them that their own actions were the root
cause of all their hardships, then they can learn from their mistakes.
For instance, it's important to remember that for most campaigns,
the PC's are *criminals.* Whether for the "greater good" or for their own
gain is immaterial. They are usually breaking the law. One of my
favorite consequences to hit cocky players with is arrest and trial. This
is cool from a GM standpoint because over the course of the trial, you can
reveal *exactly* how the PC's screwed up. What mistakes they made, what
clues they left behind, how they were tracked down - this stuff will all
come out in the chain of evidence. It also provides motivation for the
PC's to go on "runs" of their own. For instance, if not all of the PC's
are caught, others could be operating to try to pressure key members of
the jury, "eliminate" witnesses, steal physical evidence, bribe officials,
etc. All this stuff can be fun to play out. If the PC's do get
sentenced, then you can run a prison break scenario.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Fri Jan 12 13:42:05 2001
Quick impersonation of the average Shadowrun PC - "Consequences, schmonsequences -
long as I'm rich!"
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Phil Smith)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Fri Jan 12 15:42:00 2001
>From: Sinabian@***.com
> >>Is taking away their
>toys (that is: foci, cyberware, magic rating, totem dice, weapons,
>vehicles, drones, decks, etc) the only way to make a PC feel the
>consequences?>>
>
>This depends greatly upon the players. With anyone I've ever GMed over?
>YES! And be prepared to hear a LOT of bitching and moaning about it too...
>At least until they realize that that's the sort of thing you're going to
>be doing and that you ARE doing it fairly.
>

I'm not sure if I agree completely with the above, it could just be that I'm
reading this wrong, but the above sounds distinctly like "if the players are
bad people take their stuff away." I don't really think its the GM's job to
make bad things happen to characters simply because they did something the
GM does not agree with. This is a game about criminals after all and if the
player covers their tracks right and acts professionally they should get
away with it, weather they are robbing a faceless megacorporation who could
afford it or blowing up an orphanage.

Phil

Since most of my face never gets a chance to heal, I've got nothing to lose
in the looks department. My boss, at work, he asked me what I was doing
about the hole through my cheek that never heals. When I drink coffee, I
told him, I put two fingers over the hole so it won't leak.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sven De Herdt)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Sat Jan 13 06:12:01 2001
Sinabian@***.com wrote:
>
> Quick impersonation of the average Shadowrun PC -
> "Consequences, schmonsequences - long as I'm rich!"

Agreed,

but I try to prevent/solve such a 'short-sighted' reaction through the use
of NPCs and comments/reactions of the environment around them.

fi. Mr. J. gave them a retrieval run. However this assignement was a trap
(part of the progress in the adventure) set up by other NPC, whithout Mr. J.
knowing so. The PCs arrive at the seen and have the subject in their grasp
when the trap closes (at which point they receive a phonecall from Mr. J. to
bail out, because the retrieval is a trap). So they leave the subject be
and try to run. To shorten the story: the PCs get caught, but escape at the
end of the adventure and return to Mr. J. to collect their money for the
retrieval.

In reaction to Mr. J. response that the mission was not completed, the PCs
respond that it was, since the last order was to leave the subject as is and
to bail out.
Mr. J.: "If your so eager to get these few nuyen (the run would get them
5000), then here they are... but remember that next time the run will not be
changed to save your lives!"

One of the characters (a japanese street sam) considered his reputation was
at stake and gave me following response: <begin quote>
In the old ways of the Samurai one can find this saying:

"Shame and repentance are like upsetting a pot of water, When a certain
friend of mine listened to the way that a man who had stolen his sword
ornament confessed, he felt compassion. If one will rectify his mistakes,
their traces will soon disappear."

Honored Mr. J. with this I only want to say I deeply regret not full filling
the assigned mission.

If you want me to find this woman, I am at your disposal.

If you want to let this woman be and advance further with other business it
will be so.

For not having full filled my mission I do not want to be payed, for this
would be dishonorfull.
</end quote>

Just to say that there are some that value reputation above money,

-sven ;)
--
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: The Consequences
Date: Sat Jan 13 06:12:05 2001
According to Marc Renouf, on Fri, 12 Jan 2001 the word on the street was...

> Part of the challenge of making PC's feel the consequences of
> their actions is letting the players know that their actions actually
> *have* consequences. Too often I hear of GM's complain that their PC's
> seem to operate largely in a vaccuum, doing whatever they want without any
> thought as to the ramifications.

I've found that often, just the idea of consequences is enough. You don't
actually have to have Lone Star come after the PCs for a shooting, just
occasionally hint that that would happen, and the players will be a lot less
trigger-happy. This might not work for all groups, but it has for just
about everyone I've played with.

--
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