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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:29 +0200
According to K in the Shadows, at 3:21 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the
street was...

> > According to FASA, one current american dollar equals one nuyen, for
> > simplicities sake. (This is unofficial from the Tom Dowd days, I believe.)
> >
> Actually, the last I knew (which was early second ed btw) was that 2 UCAS
> dollars equalled 1 Nuyen.

Let's clear this up: if you're talking about UCAS dollars to nuyen, it's
about $5 to 1Y (CAS dollars are about $4.75:1Y, BTW). OTOH if you want to
know the conversion rate between _modern_ _US_ dollars and the nuyen, it's
1:1.


According to Adam J, at 21:48 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> According to FASA, one current american dollar equals one nuyen, for
> simplicities sake. (This is unofficial from the Tom Dowd days, I
believe.)

No, this is official, and from the GM book from the Denver boxed set.
(Page 54, right above the header "Getting the Goods" for those who need a
reference for this.)

Also, if you turn the page to 56, you'll find a table that shows the
average conversion rates for all currencies that had been included in SR
sourcebooks up until 1994, when the Denver set came out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 06:24:21 -0400
Gurth wrote:
> Let's clear this up: if you're talking about UCAS dollars to nuyen, it's
> about $5 to 1Y (CAS dollars are about $4.75:1Y, BTW). OTOH if you want to
> know the conversion rate between _modern_ _US_ dollars and the nuyen, it's
> 1:1.

But that means that a middle lifestyle costs $60,000 (!!!) per year
to maintain, in modern US dollars, for a single person. That's utterly
insane. A bachelor who earns $50,000/year can only afford a low lifestyle?
That doesn't work for me.

--Sean
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 05:59:52 -0500
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:49:29 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>According to Adam J, at 21:48 on 14 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...
>> According to FASA, one current american dollar equals one nuyen, for
>> simplicities sake. (This is unofficial from the Tom Dowd days, I
believe.)

>No, this is official, and from the GM book from the Denver boxed set.
>(Page 54, right above the header "Getting the Goods" for those who need
a
>reference for this.)
<SNIP>

Oh great Guru Gurth ... I can't find it anywhere under the section ...
are you sure about this?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 07:32:46 -0600
Sean McCrohan's contribution to ShadowRN was:
/
/ Gurth wrote:
/ > Let's clear this up: if you're talking about UCAS dollars to nuyen, it's
/ > about $5 to 1Y (CAS dollars are about $4.75:1Y, BTW). OTOH if you want to
/ > know the conversion rate between _modern_ _US_ dollars and the nuyen, it's
/ > 1:1.
/
/ But that means that a middle lifestyle costs $60,000 (!!!) per year
/ to maintain, in modern US dollars, for a single person. That's utterly
/ insane. A bachelor who earns $50,000/year can only afford a low lifestyle?
/ That doesn't work for me.

Actually, considering inflation, 60,000/yr is pretty cheap for a middle
lifestyle.

I and my wife currently have what I would consider a middle lifestyle.
Our combined salary is around 60,000, and there isn't much left over.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 5
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:44:20 -0500
----------
> From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
> >No, this is official, and from the GM book from the Denver boxed set.
> >(Page 54, right above the header "Getting the Goods" for those who need
> a
> >reference for this.)
> <SNIP>
>
> Oh great Guru Gurth ... I can't find it anywhere under the section ...
> are you sure about this?

I found it, D.... like he said its right _above_ the header Getting the
Goods.

Also note that that's circa 1994... which means the exchange rate is no
long quite 1:1
Message no. 6
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:40:04 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> But that means that a middle lifestyle costs $60,000 (!!!) per year
> to maintain, in modern US dollars, for a single person. That's utterly
> insane. A bachelor who earns $50,000/year can only afford a low lifestyle?
> That doesn't work for me.

High end of Low, yes.

By my estimates, *I* live on the "high end of Low," and I'm making around
$50K with bonuses. I live in an apartment, drive a Saturn, go out once or
twice a week, and every time I buy something big and superfluous (like a
treadmill, or a nice bedroom suite) I end up increasing my debt.

Yes, I support a fiancee in college with that same salary, but the point
still stands. When she gets out we can pool our salaries and save toward
buying a decent house in a decent subdivision -- which, for me, is the
marker of a modern-day American Middle lifestyle. And you do need at
least $60K, between one or two people, to make that work properly.

So I don't see what the conversion problem is at all. I don't even notice
any inflation.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 7
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:46:34 -0400
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

->Gurth wrote:
->> Let's clear this up: if you're talking about UCAS dollars to nuyen, it's
->> about $5 to 1Y (CAS dollars are about $4.75:1Y, BTW). OTOH if you want to
->> know the conversion rate between _modern_ _US_ dollars and the nuyen, it's
->> 1:1.
->
-> But that means that a middle lifestyle costs $60,000 (!!!) per year
->to maintain, in modern US dollars, for a single person. That's utterly
->insane. A bachelor who earns $50,000/year can only afford a low lifestyle?
->That doesn't work for me.

Stop using 2060 costs for lifestyles and you'll find it does work
out fairly well. Assume 400% inflation over 62 years and it works out
pretty well even.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:46:59 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:
> Actually, considering inflation, 60,000/yr is pretty cheap for a middle
> lifestyle.
>
> I and my wife currently have what I would consider a middle lifestyle.
> Our combined salary is around 60,000, and there isn't much left over.

*nod* That'd work, except for two things. If 1 1998 $ equals
1 2060 Y, then inflation should already have been accounted for - other
wise, the whole conversion is useless. If they're equal 'except for
inflation', then that just brings us back to the original question:
how do their buying powers compare?
And second, the 60,000Y will only buy a middle lifestyle for
one person. There aren't any rules for households, really - I assume
that once you've bought one lifestyle, adding more people to it comes
at a hefty discount, but it still costs money above and beyond the original
price. (Or are there rules for this that I'm not remembering, somewhere?)

--Sean
Message no. 9
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:20:43 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
> > Actually, considering inflation, 60,000/yr is pretty cheap for a middle
> > lifestyle.
> >
> > I and my wife currently have what I would consider a middle lifestyle.
> > Our combined salary is around 60,000, and there isn't much left over.
>
> *nod* That'd work, except for two things. If 1 1998 $ equals
> 1 2060 Y, then inflation should already have been accounted for - other
> wise, the whole conversion is useless. If they're equal 'except for
> inflation', then that just brings us back to the original question:
> how do their buying powers compare?
>
The conversion isn't useless, it's just on another scale - the same
amount of work should be required to earn $1 or 1Y. As for how the
buying powers compare, you've got a whole *list* of stuff in the
back of the BBB to compare - some things go up in price, some go down.
Mostly up, admittedly.

> And second, the 60,000Y will only buy a middle lifestyle for
> one person. There aren't any rules for households, really - I assume
> that once you've bought one lifestyle, adding more people to it comes
> at a hefty discount, but it still costs money above and beyond the
> original
> price. (Or are there rules for this that I'm not remembering, somewhere?)
>
There really aren't any rules - there *are* guidelines ("low",
"medium",
"high", etc). They list what's typical for a given amount of money,
but there's a fair bit of flexibility - what about somebody with a
"medium" lifestyle who doesn't have a car or first-class tube pass, but
instead has a wicked AV system or computer? It's *very* difficult to
quantify that sort of thing.

James Ojaste
Message no. 10
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:19:29 -0400
>David Buehrer wrote:
>> Actually, considering inflation, 60,000/yr is pretty cheap for a middle
>> lifestyle.
>>
>> I and my wife currently have what I would consider a middle lifestyle.
>> Our combined salary is around 60,000, and there isn't much left over.
>
> *nod* That'd work, except for two things. If 1 1998 $ equals
>1 2060 Y, then inflation should already have been accounted for - other
>wise, the whole conversion is useless. If they're equal 'except for
>inflation', then that just brings us back to the original question:
>how do their buying powers compare?
> And second, the 60,000Y will only buy a middle lifestyle for
>one person. There aren't any rules for households, really - I assume
>that once you've bought one lifestyle, adding more people to it comes
>at a hefty discount, but it still costs money above and beyond the original
>price. (Or are there rules for this that I'm not remembering, somewhere?)
>
> --Sean
>


P. 240 Sr3 2nd paragraph last 2 sentences

"A Character living a Middle or higher lifestyle can support guests at a
rate of 10 percent of his own cost of living per guest. A Host can also
keep a guest at a lower lifestyle than his own by paying 10 percent of
the guests lifestyle."

This would seem to cover Households. For a family of 4 (Mom, Dad, 2 kids)
the cost would be 5700 Y per month or 68,600Y per year (Mom and Dad at
middle Kids at low). This is pretty accurate for a $1 (98) to 1Y (60)
conversion rate in the bigger city's. In smaller city's and town's it is
somewhat cheaper and should be in Sr as well. For a person living alone
$60k per year seems a bit steep for a middle lifestyle unless you are
living in Manhatten. $40k is probably more accurate in most city's going
down towards $28k in smaller less populated regions. Also remember FASA
is probably basing lifestyle costs on what they know, Chicago, which is
one of the more expensive places to live in the country IIRC. I would say
this ability should start at Low lifestyle instead of Middle, Low being
the lowest lifestyle where you have an actual appartment.

On a related note in Sr2 you could buy lifestyles by the year at 10X the
base cost (instead of 12X for buying it month per month). Why was this
left out in Sr3 when buying permanent lifestyles was kept. If this were
kept in then 1 Yr Middle lifestyle for 1 person would be 50K Y and a
Family of 4 would be 57K, still fairly accurate for a family but more
accurate for 1 person.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:56 +0200
According to D. Ghost, at 5:59 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> >No, this is official, and from the GM book from the Denver boxed set.
> >(Page 54, right above the header "Getting the Goods" for those who need
> a
> >reference for this.)
> <SNIP>
>
> Oh great Guru Gurth ... I can't find it anywhere under the section ...
> are you sure about this?

Right ABOVE that header, in the middle of the right-hand column on page 54
of the Denver GM book. It's there, I checked before I sent that post. (No,
I don't know page references for SR books by heart. Well, not for most
things, anyway :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 19:39:56 +0200
According to Sean McCrohan, at 6:24 on 15 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> But that means that a middle lifestyle costs $60,000 (!!!) per year
> to maintain, in modern US dollars, for a single person. That's utterly
> insane. A bachelor who earns $50,000/year can only afford a low lifestyle?
> That doesn't work for me.

Who says people make the same amount of money in the 2050s as they do
today? (This is one thing that bothers me about TV programs about poor
countries -- they quote typical wages but not typical prices).

I have a feeling the 1 nuyen = 1 modern dollar is because they wanted GMs
to have an easy way of figuring prices for everyday items, not because
they thought it through and calculated average annual incomes or
anything...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
On a wave of mutilation...
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:01:20 -0600
Steve Collins's contribution to ShadowRN was:
/
/ For a person living alone
/ $60k per year seems a bit steep for a middle lifestyle unless you are
/ living in Manhatten. $40k is probably more accurate in most city's going
/ down towards $28k in smaller less populated regions.

Or in someplace like the hills of San Francisco 60K a year will barely
get you a closet. The lifestyle prices listed in SR are probably for
class A & B neighborhoods. You could probably acheive a "middle"
lifestyle in a low security/high risk neighborhood for 20-40K/yr.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 14
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The definitive answer about dollars and nuyen. I hope.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 18:10:30 -0500
On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:44:20 -0500 Nexx <nexx@********.NET> writes:
>----------
>> From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
>> >No, this is official, and from the GM book from the Denver boxed set.
>> >(Page 54, right above the header "Getting the Goods" for those who
need a
>> >reference for this.)
>> <SNIP>

>> Oh great Guru Gurth ... I can't find it anywhere under the section ...
>> are you sure about this?

>I found it, D.... like he said its right _above_ the header Getting the
>Goods.
>
>Also note that that's circa 1994... which means the exchange rate is no
>long quite 1:1

Ah. Thank you Nexx. I think, however, that the spirit of the "rule"
still applies. That spirit being to make conversion of realworld gear
that was omitted intp SR simple, the ratio is still about 1:1. For
example, the cellphone prices were modified in SR3 to gel more with the
current US prices ... (I think ... I really don't have an accurate idea
of the current prices.)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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