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Message no. 1
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 06:06:03 -0400
For your consideration: Applying the prevalent choice for a "doughnut" style
area-effect modification of +1 power, +1 Drain level, it becomes possible for
a magician to modify a Hellblast to center it on himself(Range: Self) with a
doughnut effect(+1 TN, +1 Drain Level), and end up with a drain of (F/2)+7M.
With a kill range on average of 12 meters across, this is IMHO a little too
devastating, even with such a high target number. Do you agree or disagree
with the way this variant works out? What's wrong with it if you don't, etc.
Any thoughts?

Wolfstar
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:12:34 GMT
George Metz writes

> For your consideration: Applying the prevalent choice for a "doughnut"
style
> area-effect modification of +1 power, +1 Drain level, it becomes possible for
> a magician to modify a Hellblast to center it on himself(Range: Self) with a
> doughnut effect(+1 TN, +1 Drain Level), and end up with a drain of (F/2)+7M.
> With a kill range on average of 12 meters across, this is IMHO a little too
> devastating, even with such a high target number. Do you agree or disagree
> with the way this variant works out? What's wrong with it if you don't, etc.
> Any thoughts?
>
I agree this is too nasty.

Putting a hole in the middle of a spell effect is pretty involved and
i would say incompatible with range self if you want the spell to
hurt other people.

I would suggest
Serious bonus game = +2 drain levels by the spell design table!
no range self, area effect based on self is equivalnet to limited
range rolling one success so i would say thats the minimum range for
-1drain TN, (hint don't centre it other than on you and roll only 1
success on that range roll (which is for combat spells seperate to
the effect test) or you blow yourself up :)

This gives +2 drain levels and -1 Drain TN (for centred on caster)
for a nasty ((F/2)+8)D (recalculating hellblast by the book, drain
shoul be ((F/2)+5)D though most GM's refuse to let you change it)

Mark
Message no. 3
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:27:29 -0400
> From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
> Date: Friday, August 08, 1997 6:06 AM

> For your consideration: Applying the prevalent choice for a "doughnut"
style
> area-effect modification of +1 power, +1 Drain level, it becomes possible
for
> a magician to modify a Hellblast to center it on himself(Range: Self)
with a
> doughnut effect(+1 TN, +1 Drain Level), and end up with a drain of
(F/2)+7M.
> With a kill range on average of 12 meters across, this is IMHO a little
too
> devastating, even with such a high target number. Do you agree or
disagree
> with the way this variant works out? What's wrong with it if you don't,
etc.
> Any thoughts?

Sure. Here's how I would do it. Just make the Doughnut spell modifier
incombatable with Touch Required, Range: Self, and Voluntary Subject
Required modifications. However, I feel the usefulness of a spell with the
Doughnut modifier is very limited in its applications. The lack of Range
should give you some bonus. Thus, I would make the overall modifier +1
Drain level. I disagree with the Grimmy when it comes to extra Drain
Levels past Deadly. I use similar rules for overdamage as those in FoF,
but I go by wound levels, not boxes of overflow (thus, Light over Deadly,
then Moderate over Deadly, etc.). I would have extra wound levels of
damage equate to overflow damage by wound level as well. Thus, you would
have a final Drain Code of (Force/2) +6 L/D for the HellDoughnut spell. :)

You would have to get 4 successes vs. a minimal TN of 7 to not go
unconscious after casting this spell. Harsh. Perhaps your players should
look into ManaDoughnut instead of HellDought. ;)

> Wolfstar
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:14:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 06:08:35 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

> For your consideration: Applying the prevalent choice for a "doughnut"
style
> area-effect modification of +1 power, +1 Drain level, it becomes possible
> for
> a magician to modify a Hellblast to center it on himself(Range: Self) with
a
> doughnut effect(+1 TN, +1 Drain Level), and end up with a drain of
(F/2)+7M.
> With a kill range on average of 12 meters across, this is IMHO a little
too
> devastating, even with such a high target number. Do you agree or disagree
> with the way this variant works out? What's wrong with it if you don't,
etc.
> Any thoughts?
>
Sure, how in hell did you get so low? Hellblast is a base D6. The doughnut
effect would add a +1 (the rules here for the Combat Magic) to the Drain
Category, making it D8. The "Range Self" couldn't work, as that would cause
the magical force to self collapse. The "Range Self" or "Personal
Modifier"
options for this simply don't work, because the "Doughnut Hole" of the spell
would be the spellcaster at the middle. Unless of course the caster -WANTED-
to blow him/her/itself to oblivion and beyond (as Range Self also implies
"Willingness", and probably drops the target number to a 4 or a 3).
-K
Message no. 5
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:02:09 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 23:41:05 EDT, you write:

> Sure, how in hell did you get so low? Hellblast is a base D6. The
doughnut
> effect would add a +1 (the rules here for the Combat Magic) to the Drain
> Category, making it D8. The "Range Self" couldn't work, as that would
cause
> the magical force to self collapse. The "Range Self" or "Personal
Modifier"
> options for this simply don't work, because the "Doughnut Hole" of the
spell
> would be the spellcaster at the middle. Unless of course the caster
-WANTED-
> to blow him/her/itself to oblivion and beyond (as Range Self also implies
> "Willingness", and probably drops the target number to a 4 or a 3).

Simple. Range: Self. Range of the spell determines where the center of the
effect occurs, not where all the power focuses. So Range: Self does work,
simply because you're saying that the spell is ALWAYS centered on the caster,
there's a (For example) 1-meter radius "hole" in the center of the spell
effect, so that anything between 1 and 6 meters(Assuming magic attribute of
6) gets awfully toasty. (Keep in mind that there's a high percentage chance
that the caster will get hit by exploding ammo and grenades. Have a Barrier
Spell handy.....) I don't quite understand what you mean by Range self not
working though. Care to explain?

Wolfstar
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:27:54 -0400
> From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
> Date: Saturday, August 09, 1997 4:02 AM

<Snip>

> Simple. Range: Self. Range of the spell determines where the center of
the
> effect occurs, not where all the power focuses. So Range: Self does work,
> simply because you're saying that the spell is ALWAYS centered on the
caster,
> there's a (For example) 1-meter radius "hole" in the center of the spell
> effect, so that anything between 1 and 6 meters(Assuming magic attribute
of
> 6) gets awfully toasty. (Keep in mind that there's a high percentage
chance
> that the caster will get hit by exploding ammo and grenades. Have a
Barrier
> Spell handy.....) I don't quite understand what you mean by Range self
not
> working though. Care to explain?

IMO, the range is part of the Doughnut effect. Thus, you don't apply it
seperately as Range: Self. Remember, this is one area that the people at
FASA explicity state that the rules won't always fit well with the effects
of the spell. Modify as necessary. Just state that the Range: Self is
redundant with the Doughtnut effect.

> Wolfstar
Message no. 7
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:54:34 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 04:58:12 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

> Simple. Range: Self. Range of the spell determines where the center of the
> effect occurs, not where all the power focuses. So Range: Self does work,
> simply because you're saying that the spell is ALWAYS centered on the
caster,
>
> there's a (For example) 1-meter radius "hole" in the center of the spell
> effect, so that anything between 1 and 6 meters(Assuming magic attribute
of
> 6) gets awfully toasty. (Keep in mind that there's a high percentage
chance
> that the caster will get hit by exploding ammo and grenades. Have a
Barrier
> Spell handy.....) I don't quite understand what you mean by Range self not
> working though. Care to explain?
>
> Wolfstar
>
I believe someone else stated that Range Self implies that the magician is
trying to make the effect work on him/her/itself. I can understand what you
are saying above, and believe that the option is available. However, Range
Self is only a -1 to Drain target, as Willing isn't compatible (aka, you
don't get both benefits), nor do you get Touch (which is the -1/-1 modifier
in spell design, or +1/-1/ or just -1, depending on the spell category).

I also would like to let it be said that the "doughnutblast" doesn't have a
range limitation. The mage who did it the first time, who used to use
Manadoughnut and Firedoughnut the most, used to use it to clear an area
around a given target, that way the target wouldn't be harmed (at least not
by the spell itself).
-K
Message no. 8
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:54:15 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 11:32:06 EDT, you write:

> IMO, the range is part of the Doughnut effect. Thus, you don't apply it
> seperately as Range: Self. Remember, this is one area that the people at
> FASA explicity state that the rules won't always fit well with the effects
> of the spell. Modify as necessary. Just state that the Range: Self is
> redundant with the Doughtnut effect.

So, basically, you're saying that if I wanted to cast a RANGED doughnut
spell, the drain code would be +1 Drain Target, +4 Drain Level, since
reducing a spell to range: Self reduces the drain level by three. That seems
too high to me.

Wolfstar
Message no. 9
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:03:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 14:54:58 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM writes:

> So, basically, you're saying that if I wanted to cast a RANGED doughnut
> spell, the drain code would be +1 Drain Target, +4 Drain Level, since
> reducing a spell to range: Self reduces the drain level by three. That
seems
> too high to me.
>
NO NO NO...for some reason I get the impression that you (Wolfstar) are
trying to make things out to be more difficult than they are for this
instance, I can only suggest the same thing that I was suggesting to my
roommate on Spell Design in SR. Quit making things tougher than they already
are. At most, the "Doughnut Hellblast" has a drain of D8 or D9, which is
still beyond what I allow (D6 is the cutoff for non-ritual magic here at
least). Ranged (aka Line-of-Sight) has no drain modifiers for most combat
and/or damaging manipulations. I know someone else suggested the "Mana
Doughnut" or something "less powerful". That is the idea. A
"Doughnut
Hellblast" -IS- to powerful, even in the games here, which can stretch
literally -ANYONES- limits.
-K
Message no. 10
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:46:21 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 19:04:56 EDT, you write:

> NO NO NO...for some reason I get the impression that you (Wolfstar) are
> trying to make things out to be more difficult than they are for this
> instance, I can only suggest the same thing that I was suggesting to my
> roommate on Spell Design in SR. Quit making things tougher than they
already
> are. At most, the "Doughnut Hellblast" has a drain of D8 or D9, which is
> still beyond what I allow (D6 is the cutoff for non-ritual magic here at
> least). Ranged (aka Line-of-Sight) has no drain modifiers for most combat
> and/or damaging manipulations. I know someone else suggested the "Mana
> Doughnut" or something "less powerful". That is the idea. A
"Doughnut
> Hellblast" -IS- to powerful, even in the games here, which can stretch
> literally -ANYONES- limits.

You're missing my point. It's called playing the spoiler, and it happens to
be something I'm good at. And if you remove the ranged ability from a spell,
it will get easier to cast. I'm trying to find holes that are obscenely
powerful and point them out.

Wolfstar
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:29:59 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-11 15:59:17 EDT, W0lfstar@***.COM (George Metz)
writes:

> You're missing my point. It's called playing the spoiler, and it happens
to
> be something I'm good at. And if you remove the ranged ability from a
spell,
> it will get easier to cast. I'm trying to find holes that are obscenely
> powerful and point them out.
>
> Wolfstar
>
Points noticed and taken. Is that Min/Maxing then? This Powergamer/Munchkin
definition stuff is starting to make my head split.
-K
Message no. 12
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Doughnut" effect for area spells
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:11:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-14 07:13:37 EDT, you write:

> > You're missing my point. It's called playing the spoiler, and it happens
to
> > be something I'm good at. And if you remove the ranged ability from a
spell,
> > it will get easier to cast. I'm trying to find holes that are obscenely
> > powerful and point them out.
> >
> Points noticed and taken. Is that Min/Maxing then? This
Powergamer/Munchkin
> definition stuff is starting to make my head split.

Yes. Let's try to clear up for you.
Munchkin: Comes up with really stupid idea that breaks rules, but argues on
it even after you prove him wrong. Typical munchkins are hitting puberty like
a sack of bricks.
Powergamer: Anyone who rapes, defiles, or otherwise abuses all the holes in
a game system to make the proverbial "unkillable character". They never break
the rules, they just use the holes in them. Also known as Minmaxer or
Min/Maxer.

All better? Now, take two aspirin and call me in the morning. =)

Wolfstar

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