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Message no. 1
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:47:46 +0000
This are a few things I have been thinking of lately ... It would be
amuzing to get everyones take on this .... and mayby we can put
together a real conspiracy theory here ...

Q1. Who killed Dunkelzahn ?
A1. I have no idea.

Q2. Why was Dunkelzahn killed ?
A1. He knew to much is the only thing I can come to think of but then
there are others who knows alot to ..

Q3. Who has the power/ability/resources to kill a great dragon ?
A1. I would guess most of the larger corps but then I can' really see
what they would gain by killing Big D (unless he had drek on the
ofcause). So that leaves me with singel individuals, groups and
organizations.

Q4. Would Dunkelzahn have made a great President ?
A4. I think Dunkelzahn would have made an excellent president.

Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?

Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...

If anyone else has any questions to add please do ...

Something to think about .. If D's body was found a burried can you
realise how big that grave would have to be :)

/Stefan.
____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 2
From: Shergold <shergold@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:11:04 -0400
<snipped stuff and Q1 from Stefan.>
>
> Q2. Why was Dunkelzahn killed ?
> A1. He knew to much is the only thing I can come to think of but then
> there are others who knows alot to ..

Maybe there was some people who didn't like the idea of the big D as
president (as some saw as "A Wyrm? A fraggin' Wyrm for PRESIDENT?")

<snipped Q3&Q4>
> Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?
One of his many lairs? Maybe he had one (prolly more) lair where no one
but he knew where to go to hide and recover.
>
> Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
> after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...

I'm gonna use stuff from Shattered Souls by Jak Koke so I'm gonna put in
the spoiler space.

S
p
o
i
l
e
r
f
o
r
S
h
a
t
t
e
r
e
d
S
o
u
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s



That enough?

Ok in "Shattered Souls" when the assassination occured there was a
really
fraggin's HUGE explosion in both the physical and metaphysical worlds. From
the magical detonation was so massive that it created what was described as
a mana storm and it (the storm) was so powerful that a mundane could see it
in the so called real world. That would indicate some pretty fraggin' big
mojo. Also one representative of each species of dragon (both great and
minor) arrived over the sight of the big D's death and did what was called
a Great Dragon Dance so I would assume that he really is dead. Also Nadja
(sp?) felt his telepathic scream and then a terrible silence where his
voice and presence once were, another good indication that he bought it.
The reason why no body? The explosion was so terrible that it vaporized the
body (I don't think they found any bodies whatsoever at the sight of the
explosion.)

Hope I made some sense.


SilverFire

"I merely chewed in self-defense."

-Draco the Dragon
"Dragonheart"
Message no. 3
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:24:59 +0000
------------------------------
THIS MAIL CONTAINS A POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR STRANGER SOULS
------------------------------














> > Q2. Why was Dunkelzahn killed ?
> > A1. He knew to much is the only thing I can come to think of but then
> > there are others who knows alot to ..
>
> Maybe there was some people who didn't like the idea of the big D as
> president (as some saw as "A Wyrm? A fraggin' Wyrm for PRESIDENT?")

Hmm a very possible conclusion ...

> > Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?
> One of his many lairs? Maybe he had one (prolly more) lair where no one
> but he knew where to go to hide and recover.

Hmmm well as mentioned below (Stranger Souls) I think we can atleast
cross out Lake Louise ... :)

> > Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
> > after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...

[SNIP!]
> when the assassination occured there was a really
> fraggin's HUGE explosion in both the physical and metaphysical worlds. From
> the magical detonation was so massive that it created what was described as
> a mana storm and it (the storm) was so powerful that a mundane could see it
> in the so called real world. That would indicate some pretty fraggin' big
> mojo. Also one representative of each species of dragon (both great and
> minor) arrived over the sight of the big D's death and did what was called
> a Great Dragon Dance so I would assume that he really is dead. Also Nadja
> (sp?) felt his telepathic scream and then a terrible silence where his
> voice and presence once were, another good indication that he bought it.
> The reason why no body? The explosion was so terrible that it vaporized the
> body (I don't think they found any bodies whatsoever at the sight of the
> explosion.)

Well I read the book to so I already know that part ... but since he
is/was the mighty Dunkelzahn don't you think he could have faked it
just to fool everyone ? As D. was carrying around alot of secrets and
well he was sort of dying to tell the little humanoinds about how
things really worked ... mayby he had himself killed so that he could
release what he knew to the world and still be alive (ie Dunkelzahn
portfolio of big secrets :)).

As Stated on the FASA homepage (section AD (after Dunkelzahn)) it say
that right after his "death" his will and alot of other goodies was
uploaded to the Matrix. (or have I just imagined this?).

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:35:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 12:18:08 EDT, casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE (Stefan)
writes:

I think I'll limit my interest to these two for now...

> Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?

I think he's dead all right. He wasn't a dragon who went into things "half
assed". If he was going to die, he'd have made sure it would mean really
outright killing him with no "lingering spirit" or "saintly
projections"
drifting around. That way no one could commit fraud later.

> Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
> after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...

Actually, read the ENTIRE book, there was a body. He left it to the DIMR for
study purposes. The burial in Arlington was done a tad differently, but then
he was a president still, even if the inauguration speach wasn't given yet.

> If anyone else has any questions to add please do ...

In time, this thread hasn't warmed up yet.

> Something to think about .. If D's body was found a burried can you
> realise how big that grave would have to be :)

Oh yeah, and I can imagine the swimming pool I would much rather have...
-K
Message no. 5
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:49:15 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 19:30:03 EDT, casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE (Stefan)
writes:

s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s

f
o
r


t
h
e

w
e
a
k

>
> As Stated on the FASA homepage (section AD (after Dunkelzahn)) it say
> that right after his "death" his will and alot of other goodies was
> uploaded to the Matrix. (or have I just imagined this?).
>
> /Stefan
>
Okay, here is a thought. A dragon is "dual natured" correct? And if you
maintain an astral "awareness" of a given thing magical thing, it remains
active correct? (Like sustaining a spell). Or, if it's a spell lock, which
is connected to a given magician, then upon the "death" of the magician, a
telekinetic (Use Skill) drops a small object upon the "return key" of a
keyboard, which is setup to do nothing more than turn on a dumb/smart frame,
which does the connecting to Matrix (ISP's of the future, what a dream) and
uploads the attached files.

Not so hard to do actually, one mage in the games here had it. Routed it via
the Metaplanes just to keep the average "mage" from interupting the spell.
-K
Message no. 6
From: Jason & Deanna Rodhouse <jade@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:28:29 +1000
On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:35:23 -0400 J. Keith Henry wrote:

> Actually, read the ENTIRE book, there was a body. He left it to the DIMR for
> study purposes. The burial in Arlington was done a tad differently, but then
> he was a president still, even if the inauguration speach wasn't given yet.

I believe that the Big D intended for his body to be left to the DIMR
for study purposes, but since it was vaporized or mestazized(sp?) or
whatever; it really didn't turn out that way.

Pilgrim
Message no. 7
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:02:04 EDT
<<Warning: This post may contain spoilers, if your game world is not into
_really_ late 2057 or 2058, you probably don't want to read any of this
thread>>

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

|
|
|
|
V
V
V
V
V


On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:47:46 +0000 Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
writes:
>This are a few things I have been thinking of lately ... It would be
>amuzing to get everyones take on this .... and mayby we can put
>together a real conspiracy theory here ...
>
>Q1. Who killed Dunkelzahn ?
>A1. I have no idea.


The Ordo? The IE? Perhaps Loffy or one of the other Great Dragons? Alamos
20K or Humanis? One of his opponents in the presidential race?
Winternight? The Black Lodge? The Enemy? Himself? Nobody knows. We won't
know until either a) the end of the Dragonheart Saga by Jak or b) FASA
tells us outright by bringing him back (a possibility, one I'm more than
a bit torn over).


>Q2. Why was Dunkelzahn killed ?
>A1. He knew to much is the only thing I can come to think of but then
>there are others who knows alot to ..


The IE didn't want him spilling the beans. One (or more) of the other
dragons didn't want him telling the world. One of the anti-awakened
groups didn't want a wizwyrm for prez (heck, I'd be a bit scared, too,
and I'd have voted for him:). The Enemy sought to eliminate the great and
terrible Mountainshadow. One of the nasty magical groups sought to
eliminate someone who was in opposition to their plans. He wanted to set
certain plans in motion but couldn't so long as he was alive.


>Q3. Who has the power/ability/resources to kill a great dragon ?
>A1. I would guess most of the larger corps but then I can' really see
>what they would gain by killing Big D (unless he had drek on the
>ofcause). So that leaves me with singel individuals, groups and
>organizations.


Isn't this essentially the same as the first question? My answers: The
Ordo, The IE (specifically the Azanians), the Lodge, or any other group
with the magical resources to destroy a great dragon. And lets face it,
whoever did it is not someone I want to frag with.


>Q4. Would Dunkelzahn have made a great President ?
>A4. I think Dunkelzahn would have made an excellent president.


Yes and no. He'd have made a terrific politician (correction: he made an
astounding politician). He'd have done a great job of running the UCAS,
with only one problem: Congress. A great president can be effectively
crippled if he's stuck with an opposing Congress.


>Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?


The metaplanes? An alternate lair, laughing his arse off? Maybe he's been
dead for some time and the creature in the limo wasn't Dunky at all but
actually a Horror which had managed to replace him. In which case, a
whole new set of options opens up.


>Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
>after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...


There was a seriously nasty KA-BOOM there (which was only nastier because
there was no actual sound <shudder>) It probably involved a really big EM
pulse, which would explain why no-one got any actual footage of the
explosion. Whatever it was involved some seriously nasty mojo. Exactly
whoever did that had more mojo in their little pinky than all of my
Silver Lions have got put together (and they're a rather unashamedly
powerful NPC magical group I put together). It probably involved an
anchored or ritual spell of some sort, perhaps it was a magically
enhanced mundane explosion (something akin to Cermak blast, albeit, tons
smaller).


>If anyone else has any questions to add please do ...
>
>Something to think about .. If D's body was found a burried can you
>realise how big that grave would have to be :)
>
>/Stefan.
>____________________________________________
> "Frag you and the datastream you came on!"
>
> [Decker insult]
>____________________________________________
>
>E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
>HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
>____________________________________________
>
Message no. 8
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:39:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 04:06:33 EDT, lobo1@****.COM (John E Pederson)
writes:

> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> |
> |
> |
> |
> V
> V
> V
> V
> V
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:47:46 +0000 Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
> writes:
> >This are a few things I have been thinking of lately ... It would be
> >amuzing to get everyones take on this .... and mayby we can put
> >together a real conspiracy theory here ...
> >
> >Q1. Who killed Dunkelzahn ?
> >A1. I have no idea.
> Winternight?

<other optional bad guys snipped>

In the games here, this is part of the "hand" that perpetrated it. But in
the games here, there is a -REALLY- big badass dragon named "Jormundgandr" of
nordic fame that is getting ready to make his presence in the world felt.
Dunke was most definitely in the way of things, as he'd be the controlling
"force" if he was in control of the UCAS. He'd be too close to reuniting to
much and what not else.

> >Q2. Why was Dunkelzahn killed ?
> >A1. He knew to much is the only thing I can come to think of but then
> >there are others who knows alot to ..
> The IE didn't want him spilling the beans. One (or more) of the other
> dragons didn't want him telling the world. One of the anti-awakened
> groups didn't want a wizwyrm for prez (heck, I'd be a bit scared, too,
> and I'd have voted for him:). The Enemy sought to eliminate the great and
> terrible Mountainshadow. One of the nasty magical groups sought to
> eliminate someone who was in opposition to their plans. He wanted to set
> certain plans in motion but couldn't so long as he was alive.

All of these are excellent suggestions. However, as others are so opt to
point out, the Enemy has a relatively limited agency list as yet, ignoring
Darke inside of Aztechnology/Aztlan. The IE's are an option, but truthfully,
they are still more concerned with their own "evil plans" to worry. Hell,
some of their own are more dangerous to their plans than Dunke was. the
Black Lodge or the Ordo Maximus? Now those are wicked little thoughts,
especially since the Black Lodge has its North American Chapter House in
Georgetown. Lofwyr, I don't know. It certainly seemed in the Will that
Dunke had a major rivalry of some sort, especially with the way things got
worked out. At the very least, he's going to cause Lofwyr some headaches for
a bit.

> >Q3. Who has the power/ability/resources to kill a great dragon ?
> >A1. I would guess most of the larger corps but then I can' really see
> >what they would gain by killing Big D (unless he had drek on the
> >ofcause). So that leaves me with singel individuals, groups and
> >organizations.
> Isn't this essentially the same as the first question? My answers: The
> Ordo, The IE (specifically the Azanians), the Lodge, or any other group
> with the magical resources to destroy a great dragon. And lets face it,
> whoever did it is not someone I want to frag with.

All indications in print to date, ignoring ED, would state that Azania could
care less about what happens in North America, even if a Great Dragon were a
part of it. I have another thought, especially if one would want to follow
the IE involvement theory. What about the Paths of Ire? They definitely
have the magical resouces, the weapons and the techniques to pull this sort
of thing off.

> >Q4. Would Dunkelzahn have made a great President ?
> >A4. I think Dunkelzahn would have made an excellent president.
> Yes and no. He'd have made a terrific politician (correction: he made an
> astounding politician). He'd have done a great job of running the UCAS,
> with only one problem: Congress. A great president can be effectively
> crippled if he's stuck with an opposing Congress.

Very True, and Sadly So. Of course, if he can play with the IE's for so long
and so well, then without a doubt the "mortal congressional" would have had
no chance against him.

> >Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?
> The metaplanes? An alternate lair, laughing his arse off? Maybe he's been
> dead for some time and the creature in the limo wasn't Dunky at all but
> actually a Horror which had managed to replace him. In which case, a
> whole new set of options opens up.

One's that go a bit too far, IMHO. It leaves "Game Reality" a bit to far,
say light years, from the believable.

> >Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
> >after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...
> There was a seriously nasty KA-BOOM there (which was only nastier because
> there was no actual sound <shudder>) It probably involved a really big EM
> pulse, which would explain why no-one got any actual footage of the
> explosion. Whatever it was involved some seriously nasty mojo. Exactly
> whoever did that had more mojo in their little pinky than all of my
> Silver Lions have got put together (and they're a rather unashamedly
> powerful NPC magical group I put together). It probably involved an
> anchored or ritual spell of some sort, perhaps it was a magically
> enhanced mundane explosion (something akin to Cermak blast, albeit, tons
> smaller).

That would be difficult. The Cermak Blast was only .5 Kilotons. And yeah,
it would have required TONS of magical mojo, at least in the force 24-30
range, as a Great Western Dragon has at least that much hardened, dual
nature, armor to get through. (Okay, so the number begins with 20, not 24).
Which brings up a thought. The Aztlaners do HAVE the Blood Gestalt forms
and Winternight has the Threat Array. Those two groups suddenly have a
bigger option in the picture to me. The IE's, namely Harleyquin himself,
have mentioned that "it would be a shame he has to die" in an errata form
FASA put out, but I think they would have really missed the extra "player" in
their games.

-K
Message no. 9
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:52:31 +0000
THIS DISCUSSION CONTAINS POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOT
READ STRANGER SOULS OR HAVE NOT ENTERED THE YEAR 2057 OR LATER ....

0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
(Guess that is enough ....)

> > As Stated on the FASA homepage (section AD (after Dunkelzahn)) it say
> > that right after his "death" his will and alot of other goodies was
> > uploaded to the Matrix. (or have I just imagined this?).
> >

> Okay, here is a thought. A dragon is "dual natured" correct? And if you
> maintain an astral "awareness" of a given thing magical thing, it remains
> active correct? (Like sustaining a spell). Or, if it's a spell lock, which
> is connected to a given magician, then upon the "death" of the magician, a
> telekinetic (Use Skill) drops a small object upon the "return key" of a
> keyboard, which is setup to do nothing more than turn on a dumb/smart frame,
> which does the connecting to Matrix (ISP's of the future, what a dream) and
> uploads the attached files.

Ehh that was advanced ... Why not just ask Dunkelzahn's "personal"
decker Jane-in-the-box to upload it if he dies ?

That would make it way easier ... but since D. was is a flashy
magican and a technofile I guess he would go for something very
advanced and complex.

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 10
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:52:31 +0000
> <<Warning: This post may contain spoilers, if your game world is not into
> _really_ late 2057 or 2058, you probably don't want to read any of this
> thread>>
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> |
> |
> |
> |
> V
> V
> V
> V
> V


> >Q1. Who killed Dunkelzahn ?
>
> The Ordo? The IE? Perhaps Loffy or one of the other Great Dragons? Alamos
> 20K or Humanis? One of his opponents in the presidential race?
> Winternight? The Black Lodge? The Enemy? Himself? Nobody knows. We won't
> know until either a) the end of the Dragonheart Saga by Jak or b) FASA
> tells us outright by bringing him back (a possibility, one I'm more than
> a bit torn over).

I don't find it very likely that Lofwyr or any of the another Great
Dragon would have killed of Dunkelzahn. It just does not feel ok with
me.

Do you really think that we will get to know in the end of the DH
saga if D ? Is dead ? Hmmm perhaps. I think he will be brought back.
Why ? Cause lets face it D is one of the few "persons" that can help
the humans the other dragons don't appear to give a ratsbutt about
us and Dunkelzahn sort of does so he is here to help us and I think
he will comeback as soon as he has flushed out some of the bad guys.

> >Q2. Why was Dunkelzahn killed ?
> >A1. He knew to much is the only thing I can come to think of but then
> >there are others who knows alot to ..
>
> The IE didn't want him spilling the beans. One (or more) of the other
> dragons didn't want him telling the world. One of the anti-awakened
> groups didn't want a wizwyrm for prez (heck, I'd be a bit scared, too,
> and I'd have voted for him:). The Enemy sought to eliminate the great and
> terrible Mountainshadow. One of the nasty magical groups sought to
> eliminate someone who was in opposition to their plans. He wanted to set
> certain plans in motion but couldn't so long as he was alive.

That appears to be the main ide of why D was killed he knew to much.
I say it again Dunkelzahn was just like a big soap bubble waiting to
explode .. and mayby someone just put the nail to the bubble alittle
to soon ...

He was killed by an anti-awakened group ? I found that sort of
unlikely I doubt they really have the brain to pull of something big
like this thou ... It appears like there best mage died in "Steel
Rain".

> >Q3. Who has the power/ability/resources to kill a great dragon ?
> >A1. I would guess most of the larger corps but then I can' really see
> >what they would gain by killing Big D (unless he had drek on the
> >ofcause). So that leaves me with singel individuals, groups and
> >organizations.
>
>
> Isn't this essentially the same as the first question? My answers: The
> Ordo, The IE (specifically the Azanians), the Lodge, or any other group
> with the magical resources to destroy a great dragon. And lets face it,
> whoever did it is not someone I want to frag with.

Not really ... In the first question I ask who killed him and in this
one I ask who has the power to do so, there are probably more than
one and if we don't know we could make a list of possible suspects.

> >Q4. Would Dunkelzahn have made a great President ?
> >A4. I think Dunkelzahn would have made an excellent president.

> Yes and no. He'd have made a terrific politician (correction: he made an
> astounding politician). He'd have done a great job of running the UCAS,
> with only one problem: Congress. A great president can be effectively
> crippled if he's stuck with an opposing Congress.

That is true he could have been crippled by Congress even thou I
don't think that would have happened ... and even if they tried I
think D would have outmanouvered them easily.

D would have made a great president much to the fact that he could
see the larger picture ... and he had knowledge ...

> >Q5. If Dunkelzahn ain't dead where is he ?

> The metaplanes? An alternate lair, laughing his arse off? Maybe he's been
> dead for some time and the creature in the limo wasn't Dunky at all but
> actually a Horror which had managed to replace him. In which case, a
> whole new set of options opens up.

Ahhh That is the best conspiracy theory I heard so far... Wait .. In
Stranger Sould it mentions the fact that D went the the chasm and
looked at the horrors building there bridge ... Gah mayby a BIIIIG
horror came over and possessed Dunkelzahn ? ARRGH! The Horrors are
coming to get us!

> >Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
> >after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...

> There was a seriously nasty KA-BOOM there (which was only nastier because
> there was no actual sound <shudder>) It probably involved a really big EM
> pulse, which would explain why no-one got any actual footage of the
> explosion. Whatever it was involved some seriously nasty mojo. Exactly
> whoever did that had more mojo in their little pinky than all of my
> Silver Lions have got put together (and they're a rather unashamedly
> powerful NPC magical group I put together). It probably involved an
> anchored or ritual spell of some sort, perhaps it was a magically
> enhanced mundane explosion (something akin to Cermak blast, albeit, tons
> smaller).


Well frankly we can't really know how powerful it really was since it
was Shielded .. So it looked powerful but we can't really know ...
The shielding and then the Manastorm preventing anybody from entering
the area to really check it out ....

I guess Washington DC just got a new tourist attraction ... The
Dunkelzahn Manastorm.

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:59:08 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 14:32:52 EDT, casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE (Stefan)
writes:

>
> Ehh that was advanced ... Why not just ask Dunkelzahn's "personal"
> decker Jane-in-the-box to upload it if he dies ?

Because "Jane in a Box" has to "learn" of his death. The way I was
suggesting means the download occurs upon the immediate -moment- he is
actually dead. Or at the very least to "D" wounds.

> That would make it way easier ... but since D. was is a flashy
> magican and a technofile I guess he would go for something very
> advanced and complex.

Ture...
-K
Message no. 12
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:47:35 EDT
On Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:52:31 +0000 Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
writes:
>> <<Warning: This post may contain spoilers, if your game world is not
>into
>> _really_ late 2057 or 2058, you probably don't want to read any of
>this
>> thread>>
>>
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>>
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>>
>> |
>> |
>> |
>> |
>> V
>> V
>> V
>> V
>> V

>I don't find it very likely that Lofwyr or any of the another Great
>Dragon would have killed of Dunkelzahn. It just does not feel ok with
>me.


I simply listed those with both motive and power, Loffy seemed a good
candidate, though I don't see him as being a particularly likely one.


>Do you really think that we will get to know in the end of the DH
>saga if D ? Is dead ? Hmmm perhaps. I think he will be brought back.
>Why ? Cause lets face it D is one of the few "persons" that can help
>the humans the other dragons don't appear to give a ratsbutt about
>us and Dunkelzahn sort of does so he is here to help us and I think
>he will comeback as soon as he has flushed out some of the bad guys.


Not so, Dunkelzahn has already set into motion lots of ways in which
humanity will be able to help itself, by providing incentive to create
certain items which would be capable of attacking or destroying Horrors,
without the necessity of big-time mojo (or big-time magicians, anyway),
and for ways of bringing a somewhat more unified world together for when
the Enemy gets there. D apparently plans that this Scourge is to be the
last, one way or the other...As for the other dragons and the IE: more
than one of the IE is sitting on a board that D's death founded (Ehran
and Aina, spring to mind), Harley is another one which would appear to
have a stake in whatever happens (if he didn't, why bother with HB? Why
not make a caer and hide away for the next 5 or 6 thousand years?)



>That appears to be the main ide of why D was killed he knew to much.
>I say it again Dunkelzahn was just like a big soap bubble waiting to
>explode .. and mayby someone just put the nail to the bubble alittle
>to soon ...


I don't see it so much as he knew too much, as he was willing to share
all of the Fourth Worlder's secrets with the rest of the world, sometihng
that not everybody agreed with.


>He was killed by an anti-awakened group ? I found that sort of
>unlikely I doubt they really have the brain to pull of something big
>like this thou ... It appears like there best mage died in "Steel
>Rain".


The brains? Oh, I'd say that they definately have the brains to do it.
The bigger question would be the power, that I'm not sure about.


>Not really ... In the first question I ask who killed him and in this
>one I ask who has the power to do so, there are probably more than
>one and if we don't know we could make a list of possible suspects.


<shrug> It just seemed redundant to ask "who did it", "who wanted to
do
it" and "who could have done it" the first question seemed to already
include the other two.



>That is true he could have been crippled by Congress even thou I
>don't think that would have happened ... and even if they tried I
>think D would have outmanouvered them easily.


True, but if the entire congress were anti-awakened (to one extent or
another)? Out maneuvering is one thing, but if he can't get them to pass
anything of his and he has to veto everything of theirs...


>D would have made a great president much to the fact that he could
>see the larger picture ... and he had knowledge ...


Very true, and it's part of what would make that a very scary idea.



>Ahhh That is the best conspiracy theory I heard so far... Wait .. In
>Stranger Sould it mentions the fact that D went the the chasm and
>looked at the horrors building there bridge ... Gah mayby a BIIIIG
>horror came over and possessed Dunkelzahn ? ARRGH! The Horrors are
>coming to get us!


<g> I don't think I can claim total credit for that, I think someone has
proposed a similar theory on the list before.



>Well frankly we can't really know how powerful it really was since it
>was Shielded .. So it looked powerful but we can't really know ...
>The shielding and then the Manastorm preventing anybody from entering
>the area to really check it out ....


But, guessing by what happened, it's a safe guess that whoever did it has
more magical ability than most nations (excepting the Tirs of course)<g>


>I guess Washington DC just got a new tourist attraction ... The
>Dunkelzahn Manastorm.


That's sick, you know it?


--
-Canthors
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 13
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:47:34 EDT
On Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:39:54 -0400 "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 97-08-09 04:06:33 EDT, lobo1@****.COM (John E
>Pederson)
>writes:
>
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>>
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>>
>> |
>> |
>> |
>> |
>> V
>> V
>> V
>> V
>> V
>>
>>

<<In the games here, this is part of the "hand" that perpetrated it. But
in the games here, there is a -REALLY- big badass dragon named
"Jormundgandr" of nordic fame that is getting ready to make his presence
in the world felt.>>


Ahh, the Midgard Serpent, right? Interesting...


<<All of these are excellent suggestions. However, as others are so opt
to point out, the Enemy has a relatively limited agency list as yet,
ignoring Darke inside of Aztechnology/Aztlan.>>


He just asked why, so I gave him a quick list of groups I figured might
have a motive. Personally, I hope we never see any more of the Horrors,
outright, in SR.


<<The IE's are an option, but truthfully, they are still more concerned
with their own "evil plans" to worry. Hell, some of their own are more
dangerous to their plans than Dunke was.>>


Granted, but they're also the most obvious group (with the possible
exception of the Enemy) which wants/wanted the Big D to bite the big one.


<<the Black Lodge or the Ordo Maximus? Now those are wicked little
thoughts, especially since the Black Lodge has its North American Chapter
House in Georgetown.>>


Hmmm...hadn't considered that. I'd guess neither is _real_ likely, in
part because they want to keep the secret agendas just that: secret. And
with the fact that the Lodge isn't widely known to even exist...a
possibility, nothing more.


<<Lofwyr, I don't know. It certainly seemed in the Will that Dunke had a
major rivalry of some sort, especially with the way things got worked
out. At the very least, he's going to cause Lofwyr some headaches for a
bit.>>


Again, I just listed those with motives. And I forgot groups like the
Azzies, who'd have a lot more motive to ice Dunky than S-K might.



<<All indications in print to date, ignoring ED, would state that Azania
could care less about what happens in North America, even if a Great
Dragon were a part of it.>>


Maybe so, but he only asked for those with the ability, not necessarily
those with the motive, which is why I singled out the Heavenherders from
among the IE. I don't know much about them, but I figured that if anyone
would have the magical resources to pull that off, it'd be them.


<<I have another thought, especially if one would want to follow the IE
involvement theory. What about the Paths of Ire? They definitely have
the magical resouces, the weapons and the techniques to pull this sort of
thing off.>>


Hmmm...wouldn't know, don't have Tir Na nOg.



<<Very True, and Sadly So. Of course, if he can play with the IE's for
so long and so well, then without a doubt the "mortal congressional"
would have had no chance against him.>>


Maybe, maybe not. In any case, the whole question's moot:)


<<One's that go a bit too far, IMHO. It leaves "Game Reality" a bit to
far, say light years, from the believable.>>


As if the game reality isn't already a bit . . . warped by the existance
of such creatures? I don't see it screwing the game reality over any more
than has already been done, and it would explain what the thing was that
floated out of the limo, since black, on the astral, is generally
associated with the Horrors.



<<That would be difficult. The Cermak Blast was only .5 Kilotons.>>


Yes, and the one that did in the Big D didn't leave any (mundane)
radiation, which could lead one to believe that the explosion could have
been mundane, but enhanced with some big-time magic.


<<And yeah, it would have required TONS of magical mojo, at least in the
force 24-30 range, as a Great Western Dragon has at least that much
hardened, dual nature, armor to get through. (Okay, so the number begins
with 20, not 24).>>


Hmmm . . . I can see the Black Lodge or Winternight being capable of this
without any problem at all.


<<Which brings up a thought. The Aztlaners do HAVE the Blood Gestalt
forms and Winternight has the Threat Array. Those two groups suddenly
have a bigger option in the picture to me.>>


I'd expect the Gestalt to be more likely here, since it has a phenomenal
Magic Rating, and could thus do something like that without automatically
dying.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 14
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:02:42 +0000
>
> > Ehh that was advanced ... Why not just ask Dunkelzahn's "personal"
> > decker Jane-in-the-box to upload it if he dies ?
>
> Because "Jane in a Box" has to "learn" of his death. The way I
was
> suggesting means the download occurs upon the immediate -moment- he is
> actually dead. Or at the very least to "D" wounds.

Well how many seconds does it take for the world to find out that the
president has been assassinated ? Not many ...

But then since it happend sort of immediately mayby he had a psycic
link to Jane to ?

/S
____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 15
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:17:30 +0000
> >> <<Warning: This post may contain spoilers, if your game world is not
> >into
> >> _really_ late 2057 or 2058, you probably don't want to read any of
> >this
> >> thread>>
> >>
> >> S
> >> P
> >> O
> >> I
> >> L
> >> E
> >> R
> >>
> >> S
> >> P
> >> A
> >> C
> >> E
> >>
> >> |
> >> |
> >> |
> >> |
> >> V
> >> V
> >> V
> >> V
> >> V
>
> >Do you really think that we will get to know in the end of the DH
> >saga if D ? Is dead ? Hmmm perhaps. I think he will be brought back.
> >Why ? Cause lets face it D is one of the few "persons" that can help
> >the humans the other dragons don't appear to give a ratsbutt about
> >us and Dunkelzahn sort of does so he is here to help us and I think
> >he will comeback as soon as he has flushed out some of the bad guys.

> Not so, Dunkelzahn has already set into motion lots of ways in which
> humanity will be able to help itself, by providing incentive to create
> certain items which would be capable of attacking or destroying Horrors,
> without the necessity of big-time mojo (or big-time magicians, anyway),
> and for ways of bringing a somewhat more unified world together for when
> the Enemy gets there. D apparently plans that this Scourge is to be the
> last, one way or the other...As for the other dragons and the IE: more
> than one of the IE is sitting on a board that D's death founded (Ehran
> and Aina, spring to mind), Harley is another one which would appear to
> have a stake in whatever happens (if he didn't, why bother with HB? Why
> not make a caer and hide away for the next 5 or 6 thousand years?)

Well here are the horrors again ... Frankly I don't ever think that
they will come ... Atleast not for a looooooooooooong time .. The
earth would have as much chance of survival as an ice cube in
hell.

Just cause he provided the mean does not mean there will be anybody
there to use them ....

> >That appears to be the main ide of why D was killed he knew to much.
> >I say it again Dunkelzahn was just like a big soap bubble waiting to
> >explode .. and mayby someone just put the nail to the bubble alittle
> >to soon ...

> I don't see it so much as he knew too much, as he was willing to share
> all of the Fourth Worlder's secrets with the rest of the world, sometihng
> that not everybody agreed with.

That is true .. But that was sort of what I ment in my own wicked
little way ...

> >He was killed by an anti-awakened group ? I found that sort of
> >unlikely I doubt they really have the brain to pull of something big
> >like this thou ... It appears like there best mage died in "Steel
> >Rain".
>
> The brains? Oh, I'd say that they definately have the brains to do it.
> The bigger question would be the power, that I'm not sure about.

Really they have not been able to knock of any people with power have
they ? They have only basically attached alot of "inocent" civilians.
That really can't count for very much .. Brain or power wise ...

[SNIP]

> >That is true he could have been crippled by Congress even thou I
> >don't think that would have happened ... and even if they tried I
> >think D would have outmanouvered them easily.

> True, but if the entire congress were anti-awakened (to one extent or
> another)? Out maneuvering is one thing, but if he can't get them to pass
> anything of his and he has to veto everything of theirs...

I think we would have been closer to seeing a large live version of
WyrmTalk ... Getting a mayority of anti-awakened congressmen
is so far out and remote it is not even meassurable ...


> >D would have made a great president much to the fact that he could
> >see the larger picture ... and he had knowledge ...
>
> Very true, and it's part of what would make that a very scary idea.

I think that is what would have made him great instead of scary .. He
could have cleaned up some of the mess ... hey mayby this is why he
faked his death ... cause he didn't feel like it anylonger ... but he
could not just resign ... hmm ...

[SNIP]

> >Well frankly we can't really know how powerful it really was since it
> >was Shielded .. So it looked powerful but we can't really know ...
> >The shielding and then the Manastorm preventing anybody from entering
> >the area to really check it out ....
>
> But, guessing by what happened, it's a safe guess that whoever did it has
> more magical ability than most nations (excepting the Tirs of course)<g>

Hmmm well that is true ... I am not quite sure about D's magical
potential except that it was LARGE ... But the Tirs sure have mayor
magical powers but then comes the question WHY ? It's not like they
were just having a borring day and decided to go geek the president
of UCAS ...

> >I guess Washington DC just got a new tourist attraction ... The
> >Dunkelzahn Manastorm.

> That's sick, you know it?

Yep, It's a sick sad world isn't it ? :)

/S

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:47:44 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-10 11:50:16 EDT, lobo1@****.COM (John E Pederson)
writes:

> <<All of these are excellent suggestions. However, as others are so opt
> to point out, the Enemy has a relatively limited agency list as yet,
> ignoring Darke inside of Aztechnology/Aztlan.>>
>
>
> He just asked why, so I gave him a quick list of groups I figured might
> have a motive. Personally, I hope we never see any more of the Horrors,
> outright, in SR.
>
One consideration that I have heard. Mike M. has said that since he is
relatively in control of SR's direction now, that the "Horror" presence will
be weakening. However, another friend of mine pointed something out to me.
They have "teased" us with the Horrors, and that teasing makes people stand
up and get active/interested, even if their characters do get tossed around.
Those polls that FASA had/has out, would become a good channel for listening
to "us" the buyer. I don't think the Horror thing will die down just yet.

-K
Message no. 17
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:37:27 +0000
> > <<All of these are excellent suggestions. However, as others are so opt
> > to point out, the Enemy has a relatively limited agency list as yet,
> > ignoring Darke inside of Aztechnology/Aztlan.>>
> >
> >
> > He just asked why, so I gave him a quick list of groups I figured might
> > have a motive. Personally, I hope we never see any more of the Horrors,
> > outright, in SR.
> >
> One consideration that I have heard. Mike M. has said that since he is
> relatively in control of SR's direction now, that the "Horror" presence
will
> be weakening. However, another friend of mine pointed something out to me.
> They have "teased" us with the Horrors, and that teasing makes people
stand
> up and get active/interested, even if their characters do get tossed around.
> Those polls that FASA had/has out, would become a good channel for listening
> to "us" the buyer. I don't think the Horror thing will die down just yet.

I don't belive that the Horrors will just fade away and die quietly.
They will be there ... Perhaps popping in and out makin' little
visits but they will never ever make a real threat to Earth. Why ?
Well frankly the world as we know it in 2057 would just END.

Shadowrun would become more like MadMax and Terminator scenario game.
Small towns out in the middle of nowhere ... small groups of people
fighting back again the over powering horrors ala the Terminator
saga.

The Horrors are just to horrible to set loose so they won't come in
force. Atleast that is what I think ...

/Stefan
____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 18
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:34:28 EDT
On Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:17:30 +0000 Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
writes:
>> >> <<Warning: This post may contain spoilers, if your game world is
>not
>> >into
>> >> _really_ late 2057 or 2058, you probably don't want to read any
>of
>> >this
>> >> thread>>
>> >>
>> >> S
>> >> P
>> >> O
>> >> I
>> >> L
>> >> E
>> >> R
>> >>
>> >> S
>> >> P
>> >> A
>> >> C
>> >> E
>> >>
>> >> |
>> >> |
>> >> |
>> >> |
>> >> V
>> >> V
>> >> V
>> >> V
>> >> V

>Well here are the horrors again ... Frankly I don't ever think that
>they will come ... Atleast not for a looooooooooooong time .. The
>earth would have as much chance of survival as an ice cube in
>hell.


:) Agreed on both counts.


>Just cause he provided the mean does not mean there will be anybody
>there to use them ....


Only if the Horrors show up now or in the near future. If they instead
don't appear until they're scheduled to, then D's plans should have time
to come to fruition.



>Really they have not been able to knock of any people with power have
>they ? They have only basically attached alot of "inocent" civilians.
>That really can't count for very much .. Brain or power wise ...


Yes and no. How many cities did the "Night of Rage" affect? How many
chapters of the Humanis policlub exist? In how many nations? And if that
doesn't get the gears turning, check the entries in Threats under Alamos
20K and The Human Nation.


>I think that is what would have made him great instead of scary .. He
>could have cleaned up some of the mess ... hey mayby this is why he
>faked his death ... cause he didn't feel like it anylonger ... but he
>could not just resign ... hmm ...


I don't know that having a near-omniscient great dragon for a president
really would have been all that 'great'. Which problems would he have
solved? How? You can't legislate morality, or equal opportunity. It
doesn't work, that's why we have a judicial system. Could he have solved
the problems of world hunger or unemployment or poverty? Doubtful.
Dunkelzahn's not a god, impressive though he may have been. I think he
could have done a great deal for the UCAS, I think that he wanted to do a
great deal of good for humanity, he seemed to have had a vested interest
in them. I don't think he would have been the world savior that he (and
much of the SR world) made him out to be. I better shut up on this before
I go totally out there.


>Hmmm well that is true ... I am not quite sure about D's magical
>potential except that it was LARGE ... But the Tirs sure have mayor
>magical powers but then comes the question WHY ? It's not like they
>were just having a borring day and decided to go geek the president
>of UCAS ...


No, I don't think the Tirs (as a nation, either one) would have done what
was done. Outside of the Tirs, Aztlan, and the NAN, I'm not sure any
nation would have been *capable* of what happened. The best bet is that
certain parties with a vested interest in the wyrm's fate *could* have
assassinated him, though it would appear that they most likely did not.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:11:47 +0100
J. Keith Henry said on 12:47/10 Aug 97...

> Those polls that FASA had/has out, would become a good channel for listening
> to "us" the buyer. I don't think the Horror thing will die down just yet.

OTOH, assuming this list represents a fair cross-section of the SR-playing
and -buying public and FASA pays attention to the results of customer
surveys, the Horrors shouldn't pop up too much anymore. There have been
very few "I want more Horrors!" post on ShadowRN over the past few years,
and most of the ones that did didn't want a full-scale invasion, IIRC.

It could of course also be that we have very different opinions from the
average SR player without internet access, however...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 20
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:41:59 +0000
> >> >> <<Warning: This post may contain spoilers, if your game world
is
> >not
> >> >into
> >> >> _really_ late 2057 or 2058, you probably don't want to read any
> >of
> >> >this
> >> >> thread>>
> >> >>
> >> >> S
> >> >> P
> >> >> O
> >> >> I
> >> >> L
> >> >> E
> >> >> R
> >> >>
> >> >> S
> >> >> P
> >> >> A
> >> >> C
> >> >> E
> >> >>
> >> >> |
> >> >> |
> >> >> |
> >> >> |
> >> >> V
> >> >> V
> >> >> V
> >> >> V
> >> >> V
>
>
> >Just cause he provided the mean does not mean there will be anybody
> >there to use them ....
>
> Only if the Horrors show up now or in the near future. If they instead
> don't appear until they're scheduled to, then D's plans should have time
> to come to fruition.

Possibly ... No way of telling really ... but it is a good chance
that it would come to ....

> >Really they have not been able to knock of any people with power have
> >they ? They have only basically attached alot of "inocent" civilians.
> >That really can't count for very much .. Brain or power wise ...
>
> Yes and no. How many cities did the "Night of Rage" affect? How many
> chapters of the Humanis policlub exist? In how many nations? And if that
> doesn't get the gears turning, check the entries in Threats under Alamos
> 20K and The Human Nation.

Well sure as I recall the Night of Rage was a pretty global
phenomenon .. but should all the credit for it really be given to
the anti-awakened forces ? Was it just not more like a riot that got
way way out of hand ..

I don't own Threats yet so I'll have to wait on checking that for
awhile ...

> >I think that is what would have made him great instead of scary .. He
> >could have cleaned up some of the mess ... hey mayby this is why he
> >faked his death ... cause he didn't feel like it anylonger ... but he
> >could not just resign ... hmm ...
>
> I don't know that having a near-omniscient great dragon for a president
> really would have been all that 'great'. Which problems would he have
> solved? How? You can't legislate morality, or equal opportunity. It
> doesn't work, that's why we have a judicial system. Could he have solved
> the problems of world hunger or unemployment or poverty? Doubtful.
> Dunkelzahn's not a god, impressive though he may have been. I think he
> could have done a great deal for the UCAS, I think that he wanted to do a
> great deal of good for humanity, he seemed to have had a vested interest
> in them. I don't think he would have been the world savior that he (and
> much of the SR world) made him out to be. I better shut up on this before
> I go totally out there.

I don't think he would have saved the world or appeard like Jesus
christ or anything I just think that he would have been able to do
alot of good in a country that is so messes as UCAS really is.


/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 21
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:56:15 +0000
> > >> >> S
> > >> >> P
> > >> >> O
> > >> >> I
> > >> >> L
> > >> >> E
> > >> >> R
> > >> >>
> > >> >> S
> > >> >> P
> > >> >> A
> > >> >> C
> > >> >> E
> > >> >>
> > >> >> |
> > >> >> |
> > >> >> |
> > >> >> |
> > >> >> V
> > >> >> V
> > >> >> V
> > >> >> V
> > >> >> V
> >
> >
> > >Just cause he provided the mean does not mean there will be anybody
> > >there to use them ....
> >
> > Only if the Horrors show up now or in the near future. If they instead
> > don't appear until they're scheduled to, then D's plans should have time
> > to come to fruition.
>
> Possibly ... No way of telling really ... but it is a good chance
> that it would come to ....
>
> > >Really they have not been able to knock of any people with power have
> > >they ? They have only basically attached alot of "inocent"
civilians.
> > >That really can't count for very much .. Brain or power wise ...
> >
> > Yes and no. How many cities did the "Night of Rage" affect? How many
> > chapters of the Humanis policlub exist? In how many nations? And if that
> > doesn't get the gears turning, check the entries in Threats under Alamos
> > 20K and The Human Nation.
>
> Well sure as I recall the Night of Rage was a pretty global
> phenomenon .. but should all the credit for it really be given to
> the anti-awakened forces ? Was it just not more like a riot that got
> way way out of hand ..
>
> I don't own Threats yet so I'll have to wait on checking that for
> awhile ...
>
> > >I think that is what would have made him great instead of scary .. He
> > >could have cleaned up some of the mess ... hey mayby this is why he
> > >faked his death ... cause he didn't feel like it anylonger ... but he
> > >could not just resign ... hmm ...
> >
> > I don't know that having a near-omniscient great dragon for a president
> > really would have been all that 'great'. Which problems would he have
> > solved? How? You can't legislate morality, or equal opportunity. It
> > doesn't work, that's why we have a judicial system. Could he have solved
> > the problems of world hunger or unemployment or poverty? Doubtful.
> > Dunkelzahn's not a god, impressive though he may have been. I think he
> > could have done a great deal for the UCAS, I think that he wanted to do a
> > great deal of good for humanity, he seemed to have had a vested interest
> > in them. I don't think he would have been the world savior that he (and
> > much of the SR world) made him out to be. I better shut up on this before
> > I go totally out there.
>
> I don't think he would have saved the world or appeard like Jesus
> christ or anything I just think that he would have been able to do
> alot of good in a country that is so messes as UCAS really is.
>
>
/Stefan
____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 22
From: Jim Riegel <riegelja@*****.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:07:12 -0300
>
> > Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
> > after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...
>
> Actually, read the ENTIRE book, there was a body. He left it to the DIMR
for
> study purposes. The burial in Arlington was done a tad differently, but
then
> he was a president still, even if the inauguration speach wasn't given
yet.
Hmmm....I don't have with but doesn't Portfolio specifically state that
"not even a toenail was found"? Both D and the driver disappeared
completely...no trace at all. The guards in the car became chunky salsa...

Jim
Message no. 23
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:02:23 -0500
>>
>> > Q6. Why was there not any body left ... I mean gee he is/was a dragon
>> > after all and a body like that just don't go up in thin air ...
>>
>> Actually, read the ENTIRE book, there was a body. He left it to the
DIMR for
>> study purposes. The burial in Arlington was done a tad differently, but
then
>> he was a president still, even if the inauguration speach wasn't given yet.

Not sure who originally posted this, but...

Just because you write in your will that you're leaving your body to
science doesn't mean that when you die, the body is automatically there.
If I leave my body to science, and then die in a horrible fire and am
burned to ash, it doesn't mean there'll be an actual body to study.

Also, he would've officially been president since he died at the
inauguration while leaving an inauguration party, and those don't start
until after the president has been sworn in. So he actually was a president.


Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 24
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:24:25 +0000
> Not sure who originally posted this, but...
>
> Just because you write in your will that you're leaving your body to
> science doesn't mean that when you die, the body is automatically there.
> If I leave my body to science, and then die in a horrible fire and am
> burned to ash, it doesn't mean there'll be an actual body to study.
>
> Also, he would've officially been president since he died at the
> inauguration while leaving an inauguration party, and those don't start
> until after the president has been sworn in. So he actually was a president.

I wrote the question but not the answer since I know it was not the
truth since his body was not turned over to DIMR cause it was never
recovered.

Have anybody ever said he was not elected President ? Not to the best
of my knowledge. It appears obvious to me that you have the party
after you are the President and not before (even thou I would have
one before to just to celebrate).

/Stefan



____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________
Message no. 25
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:30:44 -0500
At 06:24 PM 8/14/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:

>Have anybody ever said he was not elected President ? Not to the best
>of my knowledge. It appears obvious to me that you have the party
>after you are the President and not before (even thou I would have
>one before to just to celebrate).
>
Well, I'd have one too. But it'd be one of those private, Kennedy-esqu
ones <bg>


Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 26
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:28:19 -0400
On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michael Broadwater wrote:

->At 06:24 PM 8/14/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
->
->>Have anybody ever said he was not elected President ? Not to the best
->>of my knowledge. It appears obvious to me that you have the party
->>after you are the President and not before (even thou I would have
->>one before to just to celebrate).
->>
->Well, I'd have one too. But it'd be one of those private, Kennedy-esqu
->ones <bg>
->
->
You mean the type where you hire every hooker in a 3 state area and
buy every drop of alcahol (and most of thre illegal drugs) in the
city. :)

sorry being from massachusetts i just had to say that.
Message no. 27
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:28:45 -0500
At 02:28 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
#On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michael Broadwater wrote:
#
#->At 06:24 PM 8/14/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
#->
#->>Have anybody ever said he was not elected President ? Not to the best
#->>of my knowledge. It appears obvious to me that you have the party
#->>after you are the President and not before (even thou I would have
#->>one before to just to celebrate).
#->>
#->Well, I'd have one too. But it'd be one of those private, Kennedy-esqu
#->ones <bg>
#->
#->
#You mean the type where you hire every hooker in a 3 state area and
#buy every drop of alcahol (and most of thre illegal drugs) in the
#city. :)

Hmm, don't you mean everything in the STATE?
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 28
From: Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: The Dunkelzahn Conspiracy.
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 21:50:08 +0000
> At 02:28 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
> #On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michael Broadwater wrote:
> #
> #->At 06:24 PM 8/14/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
> #->
> #->>Have anybody ever said he was not elected President ? Not to the best
> #->>of my knowledge. It appears obvious to me that you have the party
> #->>after you are the President and not before (even thou I would have
> #->>one before to just to celebrate).
> #->>
> #->Well, I'd have one too. But it'd be one of those private, Kennedy-esqu
> #->ones <bg>
> #->
> #->
> #You mean the type where you hire every hooker in a 3 state area and
> #buy every drop of alcahol (and most of thre illegal drugs) in the
> #city. :)
>
> Hmm, don't you mean everything in the STATE?

Hmm don't sound much like a party to me ....

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________

Further Reading

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