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From:	SyphonAC@*.com SyphonAC@*.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 14:37:08 EDT

Message no. 1 I've been toying around with the idea of running some type of connected
Earthdawn Shadowrun game (hey they didn't make 'em parallel for nothing,
right?) but wanna know what kinds of crossovers there are...I know a bit
about ED, as I own the book and have flipped through it a couple of times,
and I have a good amount of SR knowledge; basically I understand the idea of
the cycles of magic, (i.e. ED is the fourth world, "ours" the fifth, SR's the
Sixth); that the ED world is ours, to a point, with Thera being Atlantis,
etc; and about the races in general- the immortal elves, the other races, and
dragons. What things have I missed?

Also, where presicely might Throal be located, could Dunkelzahn have existed
about the time of ED (my idea is for a ED group to be shuttling back and
forth between the fourth world and 2056 magically in order to do
something--what I don't know yet-- and it would be neat if he would remeber
them), and I'd like to hear any speculation on why we haven't seen Windlings,
Obsidimen and T'Skrang by 2060. My own guess is that, as those particular
races are perhaps a bit less related to the human genome, so to speak (I
mean, them not neccesary being close variations on Homo Sapiens--- I don't
care what you say, a 8 and a half foot tall rock creature is about as related
to a human as your average chimp is :) that magic levels aren't high enough
yet to support them, and so they haven't "awakened" yet..another possible
game idea...another wave of changes in which these races start appearing.
Well I've taken up enough room...lemme know what ya think.

Syphon

"For every problem there's an answer which is simple, neat, easy, and totally
wrong"
-- H.L. Menken

From:	Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt jjp@******.nl
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 21:46:50 +0200

Message no. 2 [Snipz0rs]

>My own guess is that, as those particular
> races are perhaps a bit less related to the human genome, so to speak
(I
> mean, them not neccesary being close variations on Homo Sapiens--- I
don't
> care what you say, a 8 and a half foot tall rock creature is about as
related
> to a human as your average chimp is :)

Just being nitpicky, but the genome of a chimp and that of a human are
approximately 95% similar.

On a more related note: several of the SR novels contain extended bits
of ED/SR tie-in plot, the most notable example being Worlds Without End
by C. Spector (IIRC). As the power level of your campaign sounds way up
there (PCs time-travelling around and being close buddies with ol'
Dunky) I guess you ought to be able to fit your players right into the
IE feuds, or something. Actually, IE's and dragons would prolly flip
bigtime if they met these "puny fellows" again a few thousand years
later... result: big trouble sicced on little PC ass, especially if any
of them are human/dwarf/troll/ork.

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, purveyor of needless facts.

From:	Tal Meta talmeta@*********.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 17:18:06 -0400

Message no. 3 SyphonAC@***.com wrote:
>
> Obsidimen and T'Skrang by 2060. My own guess is that, as those particular
> races are perhaps a bit less related to the human genome, so to speak (I
> mean, them not neccesary being close variations on Homo Sapiens--- I don't
> care what you say, a 8 and a half foot tall rock creature is about as related
> to a human as your average chimp is :) that magic levels aren't high enough

Actually, the average chimp is as close a relative as it comes; 98%
genetic similarity. Some of the weirder races either haven't shown for
lack of magic, or maybe the species they were based on are now
extinct...

--
talmeta@*********.net - Heretic, Dilettante, & God-Machine
ICQ - 12594453
AIM - talmeta
Homepage - <http://members.xoom.com/talmeta>;

From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:25:14 -0400

Message no. 4 ----- Original Message -----
From: <SyphonAC@***.com>
> I've been toying around with the idea of running some type of connected
> Earthdawn Shadowrun game (hey they didn't make 'em parallel for nothing,
> right?) but wanna know what kinds of crossovers there are...

In his continuing lecture series, the Earthdawn Guru sheds light on the
connections between the fourth and sixth worlds...

> ...basically I understand the idea of
> the cycles of magic, (i.e. ED is the fourth world, "ours" the fifth, SR's
the
> Sixth); that the ED world is ours, to a point, with Thera being Atlantis,
> etc; and about the races in general- the immortal elves, the other races,
and
> dragons. What things have I missed?

Quite a bit, actually, so I'll just try and address the stuff you get into
here. Feel free to shoot more questions my way for further enlightenment.

> Also, where presicely might Throal be located

My best guess puts Throal *roughly* located about 250-300 miles
south-southeast of Moscow.

> ...could Dunkelzahn have existed
> about the time of ED

He certainly could have -- and did! The Great Dragon Mountainshadow is, in
fact, the "Big D" himself. The basic book makes reference to one of his
servants -- a human who goes by the name of Darktooth. Translate that into
German, and you get "Dunkelzahn".

According to the "Dragons" SB for Earthdawn (still available for downnload
from the FASA website, and I believe Ash has an edited version of it at
dragonpaw.org) Mountainshadow is "one of the oldest and most powerful Great
Dragons in Barsaive." His draconic title is "Far Scholar." He was born to a
clutch of eggs guarded by All-Wings, "greatest of the Great Dragons" and
raised by that venerable wyrm. He and his brother Icewing (who, afaik, has
not made an appearance in SR as of yet) are apparently the only survivors of
that last clutch of eggs.

Plus, other information revealed about Mountainshadow indicates that he is
rather interested in the affairs of the "lesser races," and shares a great
many other characteristics with Dunky. Mountainshadow lairs in the Dragon
Mountains, and in "Portfolio of a Dragon" D. offers a prize to the one(s)
who find his lair in the Caucasus (which is geographically congruent to the
Dragon Mountains in Barsaive).

> (my idea is for a ED group to be shuttling back and
> forth between the fourth world and 2056 magically in order to do
> something--what I don't know yet-- and it would be neat if he would
remeber
> them)

While reading your post, an interesting idea came to me. What if the Dragons
didn't really exsist in time the same way that other, "normal" folk do? What
if (for the sake of sheer coolness factor and PC mind-bending) the first
time they meet Mountainshadow/Dunkelzahn is in Barsaive (ED era) and he
already knows who they are -- offering some cryptic clues to events to come
in the future (SR era). I just think it would be cool to do, and suitable
for such an ancient, powerful being.

> and I'd like to hear any speculation on why we haven't seen Windlings,
> Obsidimen and T'Skrang by 2060.

Well, Windlings have shown up -- as (IIRC) Sprites in "Paranormal Animals of
Europe." They simply aren't very common yet.

There is no official "in-world" reason why T'skrang and Obsidimen show up.
The two most popular theories are:

A) The magic level is simply not high enough to support them yet (this is
basically your idea).
B) The VITAS plagues were specifically designed by one of the "immortal
cabals" to eliminate the stock that would produce those two "exotic" races.

I think each is vaild, but keep in mind as well the (relative) rarity of
these species. It is (theoretically) possible that they have appeared, and
simply haven't been discovered yet. Perhaps there are t'skrang in the Amazon
basin, or the jungles of southeast Aia. In addition, Obsidimen have a
"gestational" period of roughly one hundred years before they emerge form
the liferock -- magic hasn't been back long enough for any to appear, as far
as I'm concerned.

There is certainly quite a bit of potential in a crossover story, if you're
willing to put the effort into it. I welcome any other questions you may
have about the connections between ED and SR.

-- Josh Harrison -- mataxes@****.net
"When Fate taps you on the shoulder, you'd best pay attention.
Unfortunately, she has the blasted habit of tapping you on the
opposite shoulder, so that when you turn around she's actually
on your other side, giggling like a schoolgirl. I hate that."

From:	SyphonAC@*.com SyphonAC@*.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 20:40:41 EDT

Message no. 5 Thanks for the info, especially about Dunkelzahn....he figures in rather
largely for this, with the runners or ED characters working under his
auspices. There's another question for you all...which would make for a
better story and balanced game, if the PC's were ED characters or SR ones?
The problems I see are that the SR characters would be somewhat too powerful
in the ED world, ("You see the Adept start to do some odd incantations over
his weapon and-" "I blast him with my Panther assualt cannon") unless that
was balanced out by the higher level of magic in the Fourth World; the same
problem exists with ED characters comign forward, although one interesting
twist might eb that Adept talents wouldn't work at all or wouldn't work in
quite teh same ways.

Also, I was wondering what the parallel would be for the New World. It
occured to me that a character traveleing backwards from Seattle would be a
bit aways from Barsaive. Furthermore, what would happen to a Obsidiman or
T'Skrang going forward? Would he sustain himself becuase he already exists,
or would the lower level of magic do unpleasant things? Naturally the Big D
could do something like but a magic "bubble" around the character to support
him, but the less the players look to him, the better. Thanks for all the
help!

Syphon
"For every problem there's a solution which is simple, neat, easy, and
totally wrong"
--H.L. Menken

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 18:39:38 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 6 > >My own guess is that, as those particular races are
perhaps a bit less related to the human genome, so to
speak (I mean, them not neccesary being close
variations on Homo Sapiens--- I don't care what you
say, a 8 and a half foot tall rock creature is about
as related to a human as your average chimp is :)
>
> Just being nitpicky, but the genome of a chimp and
that of a human are approximately 95% similar.

Yeah, and it takes what, 99.99% compatibility to be
able to breed together, or something like that?

Don't mind me - I'm just being an ass. :)

Syphon, was it? The semi-official ruling on Obsidimen
and T'skrang is that they were killed off during the
5th world downtime (somehow) and won't ever appear in
SR. Don't let that stop you, though. As for Windlings,
look up Pixies (err...or something like that) in
Paranormal Animals of Europe. There's some debate on
whether they really are Windlings or not, though...

> On a more related note: several of the SR novels
contain extended bits of ED/SR tie-in plot, the most
notable example being Worlds Without End by C. Spector
(IIRC). As the power level of your campaign sounds way
up there (PCs time-travelling around and being close
buddies with ol' Dunky) I guess you ought to be able
to fit your players right into the IE feuds, or
something. Actually, IE's and dragons would prolly
flip bigtime if they met these "puny fellows" again a
few thousand years later... result: big trouble sicced
on little PC ass, especially if any of them are
human/dwarf/troll/ork.
> Jan Jaap van Poelgeest, purveyor of needless facts.

Ooo, that's really mean - especially if you do it
BEFORE the PCs start getting involved in the
time-hopping. The IEs and dragons are whupping their
asses for things they haven't done yet (in their
perspective), but have already happened to the IEs and
dragons. Now THAT'LL confuse them...:)

*Doc' accidentally steps on a time-travelling
cockroach, who just happens to be the progenitor of
the entire human race, causing the universe to end in
a blaze of paradox...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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From:	Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:07:58 -0400

Message no. 7 Make sure you check out:

http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/earthdawn.html

Also, at one point there was an "Annotated Aztlan" page that was extremely
informative, but it seems to have vanished from the face of the Earth.

Wordman

From:	Bull bull@***********.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:44:39 -0400

Message no. 8 At 06:39 PM 6/19/00 -0700, Rand Ratinac wrote:

>Syphon, was it? The semi-official ruling on Obsidimen
>and T'skrang is that they were killed off during the
>5th world downtime (somehow) and won't ever appear in
>SR.
>
Well, Never say Never, as they say (Though don't read anything into that.
At this point, Mike is still very against them making a return :)).

Right now the Unofficial line from FASA is that they simply couldn't
survive the no-mana period because A) If they "devolved", as normal Meta's
did to Human, their Devolution stage was wither killed off (in the case of
T'Skrang"), or they simply couldn't devolve (Living Rock??), and/or B)
They are more "mana intensive" and they simply couldn;t exist without mana,
even in a devolved form. (A) is most likly for the lizards, (B) is most
likely for the Rockies. <shrug>

And if FASA ever does want to bring 'em back, they have an out here as
well... They weren;t dead, they're sleeping until the mana gets high
enough to wake 'em... <shrug>

>Don't let that stop you, though. As for Windlings,
>look up Pixies (err...or something like that) in
>Paranormal Animals of Europe. There's some debate on
>whether they really are Windlings or not, though...
>
They are a little different, as I believe they don't quite have all the
same natural abilities the Windlings had. It's VERY strongly hinted at in
PAoE, though, and pretty much been admitted to by FASA, once again
unofficially (Once again, I don;t expect to see them to appear as a PC race
in SR).

There are, I believe, several versions of the Sprite/Windlings as PC races
for SR floating around the net, including one on my page (Which is based
off the Sprite as a critter, rather than the ED Windling).

Bull

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From:	SyphonAC@*.com SyphonAC@*.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 22:58:57 EDT

Message no. 9 Cool page--looks like it has a lot I can use...thanks! And Doc, good thoughts
all around...not that I don't believe you, but I'm a bit disapointed and
surprised that Fasa in any kind of offical level would say something
arbitrary as "they don't exist anymore"....I appreciate the heads-up though.
Thanks for the consideration, both of you.

Syphon

From:	SyphonAC@*.com SyphonAC@*.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:07:15 EDT

Message no. 10 Right....that explanation seems to make sense, but I still think it's a bit
heavy-handed to just whack them entirely out of the setting...ah well. But
this goes back around to one of my questions, what might happen to a
Obsidiman or T'Skrang (assuming I just say Windlings are Pixies for
simplicity's sake)? Would their own mana levels support them, or would things
just get quite messy for them as the sudden shift devolved them on the spot.
BTW, this assumes I don't use my earlier idea of some kind of higher-mana
field around them to support them....to say nothing of the reaction one might
get walking down the street :)

Syphon

From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:30:14 -0400

Message no. 11 ----- Original Message -----
From: <SyphonAC@***.com>
> Thanks for the info, especially about Dunkelzahn....he figures in rather
> largely for this, with the runners or ED characters working under his
> auspices.

No problem. As folks on the ED list will tell you, if you get me running on
a topic, I can go on for hours. Of course, are talks there are usually more
theoretical than practical, 'cause we share much of the same knowledge base,
but still...

My enthusiasm for Earthdawn isn't too obvious, is it? *grin*

> There's another question for you all...which would make for a
> better story and balanced game, if the PC's were ED characters or SR ones?
> The problems I see are that the SR characters would be somewhat too
powerful
> in the ED world, ("You see the Adept start to do some odd incantations
over
> his weapon and-" "I blast him with my Panther assualt cannon") unless
that
> was balanced out by the higher level of magic in the Fourth World; the
same
> problem exists with ED characters comign forward, although one interesting
> twist might eb that Adept talents wouldn't work at all or wouldn't work in
> quite teh same ways.

You know, that's a really tough question... system wise, I'd be inclined to
run it all with Shadowrun, because at least that system has a method for
dealing with firearms (I have yet to encounter a fantasy system that can do
guns justice, but many tech-based systems can handle the "brute force" end
of combat tolerably well).

But if you ask me, I think the best way to handle it would be to develop the
characters under both systems, and use the system appropriate to the setting
you're in. Rather than having the characters travel *physically* through
time, it might be easier to pull a "Quantum Leap" kind of move, where they
can't readily take tech from one era to the other. This will simpliify
conversions, and prevents firearms from wreaking havoc with the ED setting.

Taking Earthdawn characters into SR will probably be easier than vice-versa,
simply because the skills a PC knows in Barsaive are useful on the
streets -- they can still swing a sword, that sort of thing. I would
probably do some serious house-rule fiddling with SR Physads to at least
attempt to mirror ED Adept abilities. Spellcasters will likely cause minor
problems as well. Going from SR to ED will also be problematic -- how do you
convert a tech-reliant Street Sam to the magic rich setting of ED? I have a
couple of ideas, but at this point, I find it all theoretical (though my
mind is racing with ideas and potential, if you couldn't tell).

I think if you're going to have a storyline like this, you really need to
know what direction it's going in. It's all well and good to say you want a
time-hopping epic, but without some kind of idea for an actual story (which
it sounds like you have) it will likely end up as just a gimmick.

So I would recommend taking a solid look at the needs of the story, and
making your choices based on that. Issues will need to be handled very
differently if you're jumping back and forth often, or simply making one (or
two) major jumps during the course of the story.

> Also, I was wondering what the parallel would be for the New World. It
> occured to me that a character traveleing backwards from Seattle would be
a
> bit aways from Barsaive.

There isn't much that has been published on the "New World" in Earthdawn. It
is mentioned in the Vivane & Sky Point boxed set as "Araucania" and has all
of one paragraph devoted to it. It is also mentioned in the Dragons SB in
reference to the Feathered Serpents. But I'm pretty sure there isn't really
any info on the land.

Once again, I think a "Quantum Leap" style of time travel will sidestep the
geographical issue rather nicely. After all, they aren't *physically*
traveling through time. But in a sense, even more "traditional" time travel
(if there really is such a thing) also travels through space, because the
earth doesn't stay in the same location from one moment to the next. In
theory, time travel needs to compensate for this "drift." I don't think it
would be too much trouble to have this compensation result in spacial travel
as well. Another possibility is to have the travel be magical -- perhaps
through the metaplanes/netherworlds, where the "normal" laws of time and
space don't apply.

In all honesty, I would advise you to take the advice of Basil Exposition in
"The Spy Who Shagged Me" -- don't try to understand it, just sit back and
enjoy the ride (or something like that).

> Furthermore, what would happen to a Obsidiman or
> T'Skrang going forward? Would he sustain himself becuase he already
exists,
> or would the lower level of magic do unpleasant things? Naturally the Big
D
> could do something like but a magic "bubble" around the character to
support
> him, but the less the players look to him, the better.

Hmmm... again I think it depends on the story, but here are a couple of
ideas -- have a "fifth world" adventure where the PCs (as "mundane
humans")
prevent the catastrophe that wiped out the t'skrang so that when they jump
forward, that race still exists. Or, perhaps make the t'skrang character a
lizard shaman -- an Obsidiman could be an Earth Mage with this line of
thinking. Using the "Quantum Leap" idea again, they may jump into the body
of another species, but still be their "natural" race in terms of bonuses
and whatnot (though the execution of such an idea has some diffficulties).
Or perhaps they simply exist, and the commotion that they would cause is a
problem all on its own. I imagine a sentient "lizard man" would draw all
sorts of attention (both friendly and antagonistic). An obsidiman could
perhaps be seen as a manifested free elemental, or an ally spirit of some
sort.

In short, there are dozens of possibilities. I think (as I said before) you
pick what is best suited to the story and stick with it.

> Thanks for all the help!

Not a problem. I have to say I'm kind of intrigued by the possibilities, and
I'm going to have trouble sleeping because of all the "conversion" ideas
I've come up with. I may have to develop my own crossover story. *grin*

-- Josh Harrison -- mataxes@****.net
"You've always been a goody two-shoes."
"Yeah, but with a really big sword."

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:14:40 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 12 > Cool page--looks like it has a lot I can
use...thanks! And Doc, good thoughts all around...not
that I don't believe you, but I'm a bit disapointed
and surprised that Fasa in any kind of offical level
would say something arbitrary as "they don't exist
anymore"....I appreciate the heads-up though. Thanks
for the consideration, both of you.
> Syphon

I think it's along the lines of they can't say
officially what happened to the unusual races, because
no one has ever officially stated that the worlds of
SR and ED are the same...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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From:	Carsten Gehling carsten@**********.dk
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 10:14:09 +0200

Message no. 13 From: <SyphonAC@***.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2000 2:40 AM

> Also, I was wondering what the parallel would be for the New World. It
> occured to me that a character traveleing backwards from Seattle would be
a
> bit aways from Barsaive. Furthermore, what would happen to a Obsidiman or

I did that one almost a year ago. Only I got the characters to fly over to
Stonehenge. That was where they "traveled" back in time (after fighting some
druids). From there it was a brisk walk cross Europe :-) with their only
companion being a primitive hunter/gatherer that they picked up around
Stonehenge. He was played by a guest player, didn't understand a word of
what they said (and vice versa) and for a time actually believed that they
were some sort of god-avartars <insert-big-grin-here>

According to my knowledge, Stonehenge did in fact exist at the time, so it
took a while before the players realised that they were no longer in their
natural habitat ("Oh my God! My implant-GPS doesn't work!" :-)

Anyway, if you plan to do the same thing (with Stonehenge, that is), I will
reccommend you read at least the first three chapters of "Sarum" by Edward
Rutherfurd. It's a great book that describes the surroundings and events
around Stonehenge from 10.000 years BC up til present day. Actually read the
whole book while you got it, it's simply fantastic.

- Carsten
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GC 3.12: GCS/M/P d- s+: a- C+++$>++++ UL++ P+>++ L+ !E W+++$
N+ o K- w+++$ O- M-- V-- PGP t++@ 5+@ X++ R++ tv+(++) b+(++)
DI++ D++ G++ e++ h-- r+++ y+++

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:11:52 +0200

Message no. 14 According to SyphonAC@***.com, at 14:37 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

[snip ED stuff]
> What things have I missed?

Nothing major, I would say.

> Also, where presicely might Throal be located

Barsaive is the present-day Ukraine (sp?). Find an atlas and look up a map
of the area between/above the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, then compare
it to the map in the back of the ED rulebook -- the similaritied are
obvious.

> could Dunkelzahn have existed about the time of ED

The great dragon Mountainshadow has a human agent by the name of
Darktooth; translate Dunkelzahn into English and guess what it means...?

> (my idea is for a ED group to be shuttling back and forth between the
> fourth world and 2056 magically in order to do something--what I don't
> know yet-- and it would be neat if he would remeber them), and I'd like
> to hear any speculation on why we haven't seen Windlings, Obsidimen and
> T'Skrang by 2060.

There are windlings, but only in very small numbers. If you have
Paranormal Animals of Europe, look at page 94 for the sprite. If you don't
have that book: windlings are found in Tir na nOg under the name sprite.

As for t'skrang and obsidimen, the more or less official version of it is
that they were destroyed while hibernating during the Fifth World -- after
all, how are present-day human miners to tell the difference between a
near-dead obsidiman and a rock with interesting minerals in it?

If you want to include them in your SR campaign anyway, the easiest
explanation is that the mana level has to rise further than it has in SR
before they Awaken, like you suggested.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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From:	Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 12:16:49 -0400

Message no. 15 Gurth wrote:

> how are present-day human miners to tell the difference between a
> near-dead obsidiman and a rock with interesting minerals in it?

Rocks with interesting minerals in them don't bleed blue when struck
with a pickaxe.

:-)

---Dave ('s not here man)

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:42:13 GMT

Message no. 16 >From: Tal Meta <talmeta@*********.net>
> > Obsidimen and T'Skrang by 2060. My own guess is that, as those
>particular
> > races are perhaps a bit less related to the human genome, so to speak (I
> > mean, them not neccesary being close variations on Homo Sapiens--- I
>don't
> > care what you say, a 8 and a half foot tall rock creature is about as
>related
> > to a human as your average chimp is :) that magic levels aren't high
>enough
>
>Actually, the average chimp is as close a relative as it comes; 98%
>genetic similarity. Some of the weirder races either haven't shown for
>lack of magic, or maybe the species they were based on are now
>extinct...

I always imagined that Sprites are immature Windlings; it says in ED that
they take 30 years to mature, so if they only came into existance in, say
2040, that's only 10 more years before we can play Windlings :)>

Interestingly, Windlings would speek dwarven and windling; only sperithiel
remains from the forth world languages (including human; I would recomend
anyone who thinks that they could communicate with a forth world human to
try to read some Chaucer - that is English in the midle ages.)

Obsidimen are just dull and I'm glad that SR does not have them. T'scrang
are cool but I could never be tempted into playing one.

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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From:	Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:54:13 -0400

Message no. 17 Phil Smith wrote:

> Interestingly, Windlings would speek dwarven and windling; only sperithiel
> remains from the forth world languages (including human; I would recomend
> anyone who thinks that they could communicate with a forth world human to
> try to read some Chaucer - that is English in the midle ages.)

Why would you assume this? In ED, elves, orks, and trolls all spoke
their own racial language and dwarven. Dwarves spoke dwarven and one
other language. We would be talking about persons goblinizing into
windlings, or being born as them, not windlings emerging from
hibernation, unless I'm way off base (always possible). (just out of
curiosity, can sprites speak?)

> Obsidimen are just dull and I'm glad that SR does not have them.

Why do you feel this way? (just curious. reply off-list if you prefer.)

> Phil
>
> These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
> -Groucho Marx

Love that line.

---Dave ('s not here man)
yiannako@*******.edu

From:	Doug Browne dejaffa@*********.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:00:14 -0700

Message no. 18 >>only sperithiel
>> remains from the forth world languages (including human; I
would recomend
>> anyone who thinks that they could communicate with a forth
world human to
>> try to read some Chaucer - that is English in the midle ages.)

So what's the problem? I love Chaucer, personally. I could see
a penalty on language dice, so that only those with high levels
of English language skill could do it, but it's quite do-able.

Tee-Hee
(the overeducated)
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From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 21:24:07 GMT

Message no. 19 >From: Yiannakos <yiannako@*******.edu>
> > Interestingly, Windlings would speek dwarven and windling; only
>sperithiel
> > remains from the forth world languages (including human; I would
>recomend
> > anyone who thinks that they could communicate with a forth world human
>to
> > try to read some Chaucer - that is English in the midle ages.)
>
>Why would you assume this? In ED, elves, orks, and trolls all spoke
>their own racial language and dwarven. Dwarves spoke dwarven and one
>other language. We would be talking about persons goblinizing into
>windlings, or being born as them, not windlings emerging from
>hibernation, unless I'm way off base (always possible). (just out of
>curiosity, can sprites speak?)

Acording to ED there are legends which state that Elves, Dwarfs, Orks,
Trolls and Humans are based from the same species; just as in SR. The other
Name Giver races (Obsidimen T'scrang and Windlings) are all just smart
critters, so they will just appear when magic levels get high enough. It is
a bit of an assumption to say that they would all speak Dwarven and Windling
but not a huge leap of imagination.

> > Obsidimen are just dull and I'm glad that SR does not have them.
>
>Why do you feel this way? (just curious. reply off-list if you prefer.)

Personal preferance; I like to play smart, stylish and ultimatly weedy
characters and big lumps of rock don't seem to lend themselves to that
image. Not that I don't recomend anyone to play one; it's just the way I
like my characters. I also don't really think I could play anything not
human, apart from maybe a windling; the quote in ED just sums it up:
"WEEEEEEEEEEE!" :)>

>
> > Phil
> >
> > These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
> > -Groucho Marx
>
>Love that line.

I aim to please :)>

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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From:	Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 17:42:45 -0400

Message no. 20 Phil Smith wrote:

> Acording to ED there are legends which state that Elves, Dwarfs, Orks,
> Trolls and Humans are based from the same species; just as in SR. The other
> Name Giver races (Obsidimen T'scrang and Windlings) are all just smart
> critters, so they will just appear when magic levels get high enough. It is
> a bit of an assumption to say that they would all speak Dwarven and Windling
> but not a huge leap of imagination.

I guess what I'm saying is that elves and dwarves were not born knowing
Sperethiel and Throalic (I don't think,) and Orks and Trolls didn't
suddenly learn their respective 4th world languages when they
goblinized, so why would sprites/windlings know anything other than the
language they knew previous to awakening (or their parents'
language(s))? If the sprites we're seeing in Europe are in fact
windlings that have been in hibernation/stasis since the 4th world, than
of course they would only speak windling and Throalic, but I don't see
that as being the case.

> > > Obsidimen are just dull and I'm glad that SR does not have them.
> >
> >Why do you feel this way? (just curious. reply off-list if you prefer.)
>
> Personal preferance; I like to play smart, stylish and ultimatly weedy
> characters and big lumps of rock don't seem to lend themselves to that
> image.

I disagree, but this isn't the place to argue about it. I'll just let it
go. :-)

I do agree, however that as much as I do like Obsidimen, I don't think
they'd fit into Shadowrun very well. Maybe if they were really, really
rare... (as in not PCs, you maybe find a handful guarding Dunk's lair in
Germany or something like that.) 'Course I wish we saw trolls only that
often or less...

> Phil

Agree to disagree?

---Dave ('s not here man)

From:	Bull bull@***********.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:30:29 -0400

Message no. 21 At 11:07 PM 6/19/00 -0400, SyphonAC@***.com wrote:
>Right....that explanation seems to make sense, but I still think it's a bit
>heavy-handed to just whack them entirely out of the setting...ah well.
>
Well, there's a few problems here that exist, espcially on the SR end of
thing, all of them stemming from ED's creation:

A) SR came first by 4 years. Windlings, T'Skrang, and Obsidiman didn't
exist until then, and were never planned to be a part of Shadowrun.

B) Earthdawn, when it was created, I believe was not designed to be
Shadowrun's "Past". Thus the inclusion of three PC races that do not exist
in Shadowrun. IIRC, these PC races were actually included to both
differentiate the game from Shadowrun, as well as differentiating it from a
slew of other "new" Fantasy RPG's that came out in the early 90's. The
"link" was something added during post production, and was basically
something simply implied, and never really written in well, or thought out
well.

It's very much a shame that the whole idea wasn;t thought out or followed
through better, as there is some coo potential. The problem is, you have a
situation where things that should be in SR (and should have been there
from the start) simply aren;t there, and you have to retroactively try to
write them in if you want to include them. Which, because at least
partially because of my next point, FASA doesn't want to do. They want to
focus on Shadowrun, not on links to what amounts to a dead product line
(Yeah, I know LRG has the rights to publish stuff now. Who knows what that
will mean in the future :)).

As for point 2, well... by late 96, the whole idea of ED links had been
driven so far into the ground that it's taken 3+ years to dig them up again
:] I first joined this list back in 96, and As I recall, pretty much the
consensus then was that all IE should be dropped into a dark, deep hole,
along with every other thing that linked the two games :]

<shrug>

As I said before, Never say Never. FASA may bring this stuff back someday,
but... Who knows?

Bull

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From:	Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:17:44 -0400

Message no. 22 >>>Someone said:
According to ED there are legends which state that Elves, Dwarfs, Orks,
Trolls and Humans are based from the same species; just as in SR. The
other Name Giver races (Obsidimen T'scrang and Windlings) are all just
smart critters, so they will just appear when magic levels get high enough.
>>>end quote.

I have to agree with this statement and several others in this thread. I
think that the Obsidimen, while a cool concept, do not fit well with the
primary storyline and focus of Shadowrun. I could see them living in one of
the magic zones possibly, and being listed as an intelligent critter.
Windlings have seen their revival as sprites (as several others have
pointed out). I am totally neutral on weather they should be a PC race or
not. I am glad they exist as a critter though, nonetheless. Of the three
races the T'scrang interest me the most. I can almost see them fitting into
the world of Shadowrun. Once more I like the idea of something playable
that is totally removed from being human, or mammalian for that matter. I
could definitely see them in Shadowrun, but doubt that we will ever see
such a thing in an official form.

Just my $0.02,
-- Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle

From:	Peter Nicol peter@*******.freeserve.co.uk
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:43:26 +0100

Message no. 23 On 19 Jun 00, at 14:37, SyphonAC@***.com wrote:

> I've been toying around with the idea of running some type of connected
> Earthdawn Shadowrun game (hey they didn't make 'em parallel for nothing,
> right?) but wanna know what kinds of crossovers there are...I know a bit
> about ED, as I own the book and have flipped through it a couple of times,
> and I have a good amount of SR knowledge; basically I understand the idea of
> the cycles of magic, (i.e. ED is the fourth world, "ours" the fifth, SR's
the
> Sixth); that the ED world is ours, to a point, with Thera being Atlantis,
> etc; and about the races in general- the immortal elves, the other races, and
> dragons. What things have I missed?
>
> Also, where presicely might Throal be located, could Dunkelzahn have existed
> about the time of ED (my idea is for a ED group to be shuttling back and
> forth between the fourth world and 2056 magically in order to do
> something--what I don't know yet-- and it would be neat if he would remeber
> them), and I'd like to hear any speculation on why we haven't seen Windlings,
> Obsidimen and T'Skrang by 2060. My own guess is that, as those particular
> races are perhaps a bit less related to the human genome, so to speak (I
> mean, them not neccesary being close variations on Homo Sapiens--- I don't
> care what you say, a 8 and a half foot tall rock creature is about as related
> to a human as your average chimp is :) that magic levels aren't high enough
> yet to support them, and so they haven't "awakened" yet..another possible
> game idea...another wave of changes in which these races start appearing.
> Well I've taken up enough room...lemme know what ya think.
>

Well Windlings have actually appeared in Shadowrun , check out
the paranmormal animals of europe page 94. Also Obsidimen are
not unlike elves, dwarves and the like are not a varient of humainty
but as i remember it (paraphrasing like mad) they are essentially a
elemental spirit impressed in a physical matrix(essentialy a golem)
though all the obsidmen from the same lifrerock are in essence
fragments of the spirit of that liferock. The Liferock creates the
physical form of the obsidimen then imparts some of itself in to the
form to give it life. And when the obsidimen dies his spirit os
reabsorbed into the life rock along with the physical shell.

As for the location of Throal it is/was located to the north of the
Black Sea and Dunkelzahn laired somwhere to the north-west of
Throal

Pete

From:	Philip Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 17:42:39 +0100

Message no. 24 on 20/6/00 9:00 pm, Doug Browne at dejaffa@*********.net wrote:

>
>>> only sperithiel
>>> remains from the forth world languages (including human; I
> would recomend
>>> anyone who thinks that they could communicate with a forth
> world human to
>>> try to read some Chaucer - that is English in the midle ages.)
>
> So what's the problem? I love Chaucer, personally. I could see
> a penalty on language dice, so that only those with high levels
> of English language skill could do it, but it's quite do-able.

Oh don't get me wrong; I love Chacer. I just wanted to stop anyone from
piping up saying "what about human; we all still speak that."

Phil (Cursed Outlook Express denying me a signiture)

From:	Nicholas Zakus cheops-nk@****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:51:39 -0700

Message no. 25 I've been playing ED much longer than Shadowrun and I have the majority
of the ED sourcebooks. In one, I can't remember which, it said that
T'skrang survived the Scourge by going into a hibernation. They could
have done the same thing when the magic level dropped or the lowered
magic level could have forced them into a natural hibernation. Since
all of their villages were at the bottom of rivers that have now changed
course, even location, most T'skrang would have been killed by "natural"
causes. The same thing for Obsidiman who would have merged with their
Liferock when the magic levels dropped. Since most of the mountains in
Barsaive have disappeared by SR times, most liferocks would have been
destroyed by erosion, mining, and general tectonic movements (don't
forget, Barsaive was an area of volcanoes and frequent earthquakes).
Several villages and liferocks may have survived but that would be the
exception not the rule. Windlings of course are Sprites as has been
mentioned more times than I can count. The mention that Humans, Dwarfs,
Elves, Trolls, and Orcs came from common ancestry was correct but the
same source also mentioned that several Human scholars believed that
only Humans could survive the magic down cycle.

From:	Philip Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:02:14 +0100

Message no. 26 on 20/6/00 10:42 pm, Yiannakos at yiannako@*******.edu wrote:

> Phil Smith wrote:
>
>> Acording to ED there are legends which state that Elves, Dwarfs, Orks,
>> Trolls and Humans are based from the same species; just as in SR. The other
>> Name Giver races (Obsidimen T'scrang and Windlings) are all just smart
>> critters, so they will just appear when magic levels get high enough. It is
>> a bit of an assumption to say that they would all speak Dwarven and Windling
>> but not a huge leap of imagination.
>
> I guess what I'm saying is that elves and dwarves were not born knowing
> Sperethiel and Throalic (I don't think,) and Orks and Trolls didn't
> suddenly learn their respective 4th world languages when they
> goblinized, so why would sprites/windlings know anything other than the
> language they knew previous to awakening (or their parents'
> language(s))? If the sprites we're seeing in Europe are in fact
> windlings that have been in hibernation/stasis since the 4th world, than
> of course they would only speak windling and Throalic, but I don't see
> that as being the case.
>

I think we're argueing the case for the same point here, as I see it
Sperithiel just appeared in the awakening (having found no information
contrary to this, this is what I think happened). So when Windlings come
out of hybernation they will speak the languages they spoke before; that was
my original statement.

>>>> Obsidimen are just dull and I'm glad that SR does not have them.
>>>
>>> Why do you feel this way? (just curious. reply off-list if you prefer.)
>>
>> Personal preferance; I like to play smart, stylish and ultimatly weedy
>> characters and big lumps of rock don't seem to lend themselves to that
>> image.
>
> I disagree, but this isn't the place to argue about it. I'll just let it
> go. :-)

You disagree on the kind of characters I like to play? no offence but I
think I would be the better judge out of the two of us :)>

> I do agree, however that as much as I do like Obsidimen, I don't think
> they'd fit into Shadowrun very well. Maybe if they were really, really
> rare... (as in not PCs, you maybe find a handful guarding Dunk's lair in
> Germany or something like that.) 'Course I wish we saw trolls only that
> often or less...
>

I would stretch the same to T'scarng as well; they just don't fit into my
view of the SR world. I just don't like playing non-human based characters;
metahumans are essentially big/pointy-eared/short/tusked humans but
Obsidimen, T'scrang, Shapeshifters ect are just too big a roleplaying
challenge to try to cope with. Other people may find them fun and I wish
them luck, but I just don't like playing things I don't have much of a
comprehension of.

>> Phil
>
> Agree to disagree?

Sure, not entirely sure where we're disagreeing on but sure :)>

> ---Dave ('s not here man)

Phil

From:	Kenneth Vinson kennethv@****.wisc.edu
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:06:52 -0500

Message no. 27 Nicholas Zakus wrote:

> I've been playing ED much longer than Shadowrun and I have the majority
> of the ED sourcebooks. In one, I can't remember which, it said that
> T'skrang survived the Scourge by going into a hibernation. They could
> have done the same thing when the magic level dropped or the lowered
> magic level could have forced them into a natural hibernation. Since

<snip>

I believe I read somewhere in an Earthdawn supplement that the T'skrang of Barsaive
made a deal with one (or more) of the great dragons to be taught the dragon
"secret" of hibernation. This leads me to believe that hibernation is not a
natural ability of the T'skrang, but a learned ritual. And one, I might add, that
they likely wouldn't have forgotten by the time the fourth world came to a close.
I disagree that most would have been killed in the downtime however. I suspect
that the T'skrang might have had an idea of how long this hibernation would be and
might have located their refuges accordingly. We never hear about a high mortality
rate for dragons during the fifth age so I don't see why, with the same method of
hibernation, that the T'skrang would suffer enough losses to put them at risk of
extinction. I prefer to think the magic level of the Shadowrun world will be high
enough in fifty years or so to have T'skrang and Obsidimen popping up here and
there.

My two cents,

Ken Vinson

From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:54:27 -0400

Message no. 28 ----- Original Message -----
From: Bull <bull@***********.com>
> The
> "link" was something added during post production, and was basically
> something simply implied, and never really written in well, or thought out
> well.

I disagree -- I think the connections were handled rather well. It wasn't
necessary to deal with the connections between the games if you didn't want
to, and it was really nice (as a follower of both settings) to find the
clues that connected the two games. As ED became more developed, the
connections became more meaningful, even if they weren't more obvious.

> [FASA] wants to
> focus on Shadowrun, not on links to what amounts to a dead product line
> (Yeah, I know LRG has the rights to publish stuff now. Who knows what
that
> will mean in the future :)).

According to the head of Living Room Games, they hope to continue to support
the connections between the two, and not actively contradict anything laid
down in SR. How realistic this expectation will be remains to be seen, of
course, but I for one think that both games are enriched by the connections
between them.

> I first joined this list back in 96, and As I recall, pretty much the
> consensus then was that all IE should be dropped into a dark, deep hole,
> along with every other thing that linked the two games :]

Well, I can see where that attitude might develop, but as I seem to recall,
the IEs were developed before ED was, so they weren't included simply to
link the two games. I'm pretty sure that was the case, at least -- the old
Tir Tairngire book had several clues about Immortal Elves, including a
description of a portrait of Alachia (with thorns). I seem to recall Rob
Charette's "Never Trust an Elf" coming out before ED, and I know that
"Harlequin" was released in 1990, a good three years before ED was released.

Somebody else (I forget who) commented that the connection was never made
"official." I strongly dispute that point as well. Caroline Spector's
trilogy is about as official as you can get, even if the first two books
were never released in the States (Worlds Without End is the third). With
Aina and Ysrthgrathe, as well as several other characters from ED and SR, it
fairly solidly establishes the connection between the two.

-- Josh

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:58:04 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 29 <BigSNIP(TM)>

> Well, I can see where that attitude might develop,
but as I seem to recall, the IEs were developed before
ED was, so they weren't included simply to link the
two games. I'm pretty sure that was the case, at least
-- the old Tir Tairngire book had several clues about
Immortal Elves, including a description of a portrait
of Alachia (with thorns). I seem to recall Rob
Charette's "Never Trust an Elf" coming out before ED,
and I know that "Harlequin" was released in 1990, a
good three years before ED was released.

Yes, but they weren't taken to such extremes until
after ED appeared.

> Somebody else (I forget who) commented that the
connection was never made "official." I strongly
dispute that point as well. Caroline Spector's trilogy
is about as official as you can get, even if the first
two books were never released in the States (Worlds
Without End is the third). With Aina and Ysrthgrathe,
as well as several other characters from ED and SR, it
fairly solidly establishes the connection between the
two.
> -- Josh

That would be me, Josh. As far as that being official,
the general consensus is that the novels are not canon
material. A lot of what happens in them doesn't fit
the rules of Shadowrun, so they're taken with a grain
of salt. (Just off-hand, Psychotrope causes a number
of adult deckers to become otaku and heals one of them
of paraplegia.) So until someone comes out and says
"Yes, ED and SR are one and the same." it's still
disputable, even with WWE (hey, sure Aina's in both SR
and ED - but that Aina in ED? She isn't the same one,
y'know. ED is all just a fantasy world...).

;)

Seriously, I don't dispute that they're supposed to be
the Fourth and Sixth Worlds, but the fact of the
matter is that no one in FASA has ever been officially
prepared to say that.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:13:13 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 30 <Snipples(TM)>
> > I guess what I'm saying is that elves and dwarves
were not born knowing Sperethiel and Throalic (I don't
think,) and Orks and Trolls didn't suddenly learn
their respective 4th world languages when they
goblinized, so why would sprites/windlings know
anything other than the language they knew previous to
awakening (or their parents' language(s))? If the
sprites we're seeing in Europe are in fact windlings
that have been in hibernation/stasis since the 4th
world, than of course they would only speak windling
and Throalic, but I don't see that as being the case.
>
> I think we're argueing the case for the same point
here, as I see it Sperithiel just appeared in the
awakening (having found no information contrary to
this, this is what I think happened). So when
Windlings come out of hybernation they will speak the
languages they spoke before; that was my original
statement.
<BigSNIP(TM)>
> Phil

Actually, Phil, you're forgetting one VERY BIG
thing...

Immortal elves...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Wed, 21 Jun 2000 23:30:20 -0400

Message no. 31 ----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> That would be me, Josh. As far as that being official,
> the general consensus is that the novels are not canon
> material. A lot of what happens in them doesn't fit
> the rules of Shadowrun, so they're taken with a grain
> of salt.

This doesn't make any sense to me. The events described in "Burning Bright"
aren't what really happened? Haqrelquin's mission to seal another breach for
the Enemy and his obvious references to "Harlequin's Back" in "House of the
Sun" have no worth at all in knowing what's going on in the setting? Dodger
didn't actually meet Morgan in the Arcology and wake her up? The discovery
of the Bug Spirits in "2XS" never happened?

I don't think that adherence to game rules (or lack thereof) should have any
effect at all. Frankly, I like the fact that you don't always "hear the dice
clattering on the table" as you read the books. I think that sets SR novels
apart from most of the "game fiction" out there (which pretty much blows
rancid goat chunks, IMNSHO).

Rather than try and duplicate somebody's "game experience" with their books,
the writers recognize that the rules are to a certain extent arbitrary --
they can be bent to suit the needs of the story. Things are done for their
dramatic effect, not their adherence to game rules. As it says in the
sorcebooks when dealing with beings like Harlequin or Deus, "they can do
whatever needs to be don to suit the needs of the story." Indeed, with this
in mind, aren't the novels adhering to the *primary* rule of RPGs? That all
the rules are merely guidelines, and not railroad tracks?

> (Just off-hand, Psychotrope causes a number
> of adult deckers to become otaku and heals one of them
> of paraplegia.)

I haven't read that one yet (I actually stopped reading them after "Just
Compensation"), but a friend told me the basic idea behind it. So what? We
don't really know the capability of the Deep Resonance, and just what it
really can do (I won't give away the secret here, in case folks haven't read
it yet). Hell, we don't understand the human mind yet -- how do we know what
can and can't be done to it?

> So until someone comes out and says
> "Yes, ED and SR are one and the same." it's still
> disputable, even with WWE

*shrug* If that's the party line, whatever. I don't think that it will ever
be explicitly stated, and not just because FASA isn't carrying on the ED
storyline now. I think announcing the connection in some kind of press
release would probably cause more problems than it solves. The connection is
there for those who want to see it, and it can be ignored if you don't want
to. This is much better than coming down on either side of the fence.

> Seriously, I don't dispute that they're supposed to be
> the Fourth and Sixth Worlds, but the fact of the
> matter is that no one in FASA has ever been officially
> prepared to say that.

We'll just have to see about that... *wink*

-- Josh Harrison -- mataxes@****.net
"When Fate taps you on the shoulder, you'd best pay attention.
Unfortunately, she has the blasted habit of tapping you on the
opposite shoulder, so that when you turn around she's actually
on your other side, giggling like a schoolgirl. I hate that."

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:48:58 +1000

Message no. 32 -----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Vinson <kennethv@****.wisc.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, June 22, 2000 3:04 AM
Subject: Re: The ED/SR Connection

>Nicholas Zakus wrote:
>
>> I've been playing ED much longer than Shadowrun and I have the
majority
>> of the ED sourcebooks. In one, I can't remember which, it said that
>> T'skrang survived the Scourge by going into a hibernation. They could
>> have done the same thing when the magic level dropped or the lowered
>> magic level could have forced them into a natural hibernation. Since
>
><snip>
>
>I believe I read somewhere in an Earthdawn supplement that the T'skrang of
Barsaive
>made a deal with one (or more) of the great dragons to be taught the dragon
>"secret" of hibernation. This leads me to believe that hibernation is not
a
>natural ability of the T'skrang, but a learned ritual. And one, I might
add, that
>they likely wouldn't have forgotten by the time the fourth world came to a
close.
>I disagree that most would have been killed in the downtime however. I
suspect
>that the T'skrang might have had an idea of how long this hibernation would
be and
>might have located their refuges accordingly. We never hear about a high
mortality
>rate for dragons during the fifth age so I don't see why, with the same
method of
>hibernation, that the T'skrang would suffer enough losses to put them at
risk of
>extinction. I prefer to think the magic level of the Shadowrun world will
be high
>enough in fifty years or so to have T'skrang and Obsidimen popping up here
and
>there.
>

Actually, in Aztlan, The big 'D' (probably Dunklezahn) says to one of the
immortal elves that not even the dragons know how many dragons died as a
result of the immortal elves' downcycle hunting, so their numbers were
thinned. They probably hybernate in astral coocoons anyway. As for the
missing Earthdawn races, I doubt they would have all died out between mana
peaks, unless they completely evolved within the 4th world. If their
primitive forefathers survived the 3rd world downcycle, there's no reason,
barring those dastardly elves, that they didn't survive the latest downcycle
as well. I think that the Obsidimen and the Windlings are what are called
faerie creatures in Shadowrun, in that they have no downcycle form, instead
they imprint from the astral when the mana level rises. T'skrang are
probably awakened lizards of some sort, if so, a high mana level would be
needed to turn an iguana into a sentient humanoid.
I personally would not allow earthdawn races as PC's, after all, they aren't
likely to function in a city environment, being so different. As NPC's
though, they work, as long as they are rare as. There is a group of 5
Obsidimen in my world, for example, out in the Australian desert, doing
mysterious things.

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:11:02 +0200

Message no. 33 According to Rand Ratinac, at 18:58 on 21 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> That would be me, Josh. As far as that being official,
> the general consensus is that the novels are not canon
> material.

They're generally regarded as not canon when it comes to the rules of the
game, as you sort of said in your next sentence, but (it looks like)
without realizing it :) What this means is that you can't really say
(using SRII rules, as this won't work in SR3 anymore) "Dead wood blocks
astral projection like living wood does, because in Burning Bright the
main character stands with his back to a wooden door so the insect spirits
can't attack him from behind."

That's something else entirely from saying that the stories in the novels
aren't canon.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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From:	Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:36:54 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 34 On Mon, 19 Jun 2000, Bull wrote:

> B) Earthdawn, when it was created, I believe was not designed to be
> Shadowrun's "Past". Thus the inclusion of three PC races that do not exist
> in Shadowrun. IIRC, these PC races were actually included to both
> differentiate the game from Shadowrun, as well as differentiating it from a
> slew of other "new" Fantasy RPG's that came out in the early 90's. The
> "link" was something added during post production, and was basically
> something simply implied, and never really written in well, or thought out
> well.
>
Are you sure? The Barsaive map is an awfully good fit for the part of the
'real world' that it ended up being revealed to be. Either there was a
plan or the guy who made the Barsaive map was lazy and lifted it from an
atlas verbatim.

Drew Curtis, President, DCR.NET (502) 226 3376
Local Internet access: Frankfort Lawrenceburg Shelbyville Owenton
Louisville Lexington Versailles Nicholasville Midway

http://www.fark.com: If it's not news, it's fark.

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:22:41 GMT

Message no. 35 >From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> > I think we're argueing the case for the same point
>here, as I see it Sperithiel just appeared in the
>awakening (having found no information contrary to
>this, this is what I think happened). So when
>Windlings come out of hybernation they will speak the
>languages they spoke before; that was my original
>statement.
><BigSNIP(TM)>
> > Phil
>
>Actually, Phil, you're forgetting one VERY BIG
>thing...
>
>Immortal elves...

Yeah, Dave(snhm) pointed this one out to me off the list, I guess I must be
stupid; I had to have it pointed out to me that the Netherlands=Holland :)>

Phil
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From:	Spike spike1@*******.co.uk
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:31:34 +0100 (BST)

Message no. 36 > Yeah, Dave(snhm) pointed this one out to me off the list, I guess I must be
> stupid; I had to have it pointed out to me that the Netherlands=Holland :)>

EEEEEP!!!!

<Dives for Gurths stairs and awaits the ICBC attack>

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Jeremie Bouillon jeremiebouillon@***.ifrance.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:15:52 +0200

Message no. 37 Le 18:02 21/06/00 +0100, Philip Smith a écrit:
<snipe>
>Other people may find them fun and I wish
>them luck, but I just don't like playing things I don't have much of a
>comprehension of.

You refuse to play female character too ? That's a good point !
;->

About Obsidmens I have not read the imho simple-and-better idea: they may
be here, around us, but they need far more mana level than other races, so
they dont get up.
Something just like the drakes.

--
> [Linux] c'est une philosophie un art de vivre, un état intérieur,
> une sorte de fluide qui nous entoure et nous pénètre.
Fais tourner stp !
-+- Guillaume in Guide du linuxien pervers - "Tous drogués j'vous dis !"

From:	dbuehrer@****.carl.org dbuehrer@****.carl.org
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:20:19 -0600

Message no. 38 >Le 18:02 21/06/00 +0100, Philip Smith a écrit:
><snipe>

Re: Obsidamen(sp?)

> >Other people may find them fun and I wish
> >them luck, but I just don't like playing things I don't have much of a
> >comprehension of.

I love playing characters I don't have a solid grasp on (at character
creation). They give me room to grow and to create. And more often then
not something settles into place on it's own :)

For example, last year I made a male child who was an untrained and
powerful pyrokinetic for a fantasy type game. About the only thing I'd
figured out was that he had accidently killed someone with his powers, and
was running from the law. It was so much fun developing his motiviations
and perceptions of the world as we played. In the short time we played
that campaign (the GM went back to school for a career change) that
character developed great depth and breadth.

I would jump at a chance to find out what it's like to play an obsidiman.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:53:54 GMT

Message no. 39 > >Other people may find them fun and I wish
> >them luck, but I just don't like playing things I don't have much of a
> >comprehension of.
>
>You refuse to play female character too ? That's a good point !
>;->

Should have seen that one coming :)>

Actually I have played as many female characters as I have male ones, I have
also played a character about three times my age and one at least four times
my build; anything human I can handle, it's just animals that I have trouble
with.

>About Obsidmens I have not read the imho simple-and-better idea: they may
>be here, around us, but they need far more mana level than other races, so
>they dont get up.
>Something just like the drakes.

Okay, can someone please come up with some Obsidimen and T'scrang ratial
modifiers for far-future campaigns, I would but I'll just get it wrong :)>

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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From:	Scot Hayworth scoth@*********.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:33:36 -0600

Message no. 40 >From: Phil Smith [mailto:phil_urbanhell@*******.com]
>Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 12:54 PM
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: The ED/SR Connection
>>About Obsidmens I have not read the imho simple-and-better idea: they may
>>be here, around us, but they need far more mana level than other races, so
>>they dont get up.
>>Something just like the drakes.

>Okay, can someone please come up with some Obsidimen and T'scrang ratial
>modifiers for far-future campaigns, I would but I'll just get it wrong :)>

>Phil

ya know Phil, another reason for Obsidimen not showing themselves could be
that they feel that the taint of the land (meaning the sprawls) has caused
the liferocks to debate the safety of sending out envoys to the world? And
Obsidimen don't debate quickly....

My .02

Scot Hayworth
What we do in life, is echoed in Eternity.

From:	Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:26:24 GMT

Message no. 41 Btw folks; make sure you're ready for 4300 (give or take ten or twenty
years) because the Horrors are coming :)>

Actually what with the Ghost Dance n'all a lot of them may well already be
here. ED implys that the insect spirits are early horrors, as are wraiths
(which did not make it into Critters for some reason).

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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From:	Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:37:28 -0400

Message no. 42 Around 04:26 PM 6/22/00, Phil Smith was thinking about:
>Btw folks; make sure you're ready for 4300 (give or take ten or twenty
>years) because the Horrors are coming :)>
>
>Actually what with the Ghost Dance n'all a lot of them may well already be
>here. ED implys that the insect spirits are early horrors, as are wraiths
>(which did not make it into Critters for some reason).

The insect spirits aren't horrors, they're just alien. The (somewhat)
related in that the amount of mana needed to bring the insect spirits over
is close to what the horrors need to get here. So they act as a kind of
early warning system.

Wraiths aren't horrors per se, I believe they're more like horror
constructs. They're to the horrors what hunting dogs are to the men with
the shotguns. Sure the dog can wear you done, but the buckshot kills ya.
They were supposed to be in MITS, but accidentally got left out. Steve
Kenson has the write-up on his page in the articles section. Can't remember
the link off-hand, but if you do a lookup for him, you should be able to
find it pretty quick.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.

From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:13:37 -0400

Message no. 43 ----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>
> Actually what with the Ghost Dance n'all a lot of them may well already be
> here. ED implys that the insect spirits are early horrors, as are wraiths
> (which did not make it into Critters for some reason).

It was already mentioned that the Insect Spirits (known as the Invae in ED)
aren't in fact Horrors, they are merely alien spirits (well, more alien than
standard spritis are anyway). I don't know enough about wraiths in SR (I
don't have the book they're in) to draw an ED parallel for them at the
moment, but I'll check out Steve's page and see what I can come up with. I
have an idea, but I want to make sure I'm on the right track to begin with.

All right, now for the real reason I'm posting this. I sent an e-mail to Lou
Prosperi last night (he was Line Developer for Earthdawn's entire run)
asking him about the "official" status of the link between Shadowrun and
Earthdawn. Here's what he had to say:

***Begin Quoted Material
You're right. From the day I started at FASA, the world of Earthdawn and
Shadowrun were (and still are as far as I'm concerned) connected. They
represent different time periods on the same world (Earth). The connection
was indeed official for purposes of in-house development, though we wanted
to
keep the more obvious connections to a minimum. The goal wasn't to use one
game to drive the sales of the other, but to provide clues to the 'Big
Picture' for players and GMs who noticed them and cared about such things.
In fact, several hours over the course of my first few days at FASA
consisted of extended meetings with Sam Lewis (then-President), Tom Dowd
(former SR developer) and myself, hashing out the relationships between the
games and the key players in order to establish a consistent vision of the
ED/SR world that Tom and I would develop.
You're also right that we deliberately chose to *not* publically
announce
the connection so that players who didn't like the connection could simply
ignore it.
I find it amusing that some people refuse to accept that there was (and
is, IMO) a connection between the two games. How else do you explain the
hints about the Blood Wood in Tir Tangaire? Or Worlds Without End? Or the
fact that both games have a Great Dragon Named Alamais(e)? Or that
Dunkelzahn
is German for Dark Tooth, and a Great Dragon in ED has a servant Named Dark
Tooth?
It seems to me that anyone who denies that the two games are connected
is
either extremely stubborn or delusional enough to think that we included
*all* those hints and clues that connect the games for some reason *other*
than to establish the relationship between the two. Why would we have
*intentionally* included all those relationships if the two games weren't
connected? I'd *love* to hear a reasonable response to that question.
And BTW, feel free to share this with the SR list if you're so inclined.
I expect that there will be some SR/FASA devotees who will insist that since
I'm no longer at FASA what I say doesn't count, or some such nonsense, but
maybe (just *maybe*) this will set the record straight.
*** End Quoted Material

So there you have it, the word more or less straight from the source.

If you want to ignore the connections, that's fine by me. Heck, with the
current SR Developer not a huge fan of the connection, we can't expect to
see more development of the link between the settings -- especially with ED
development being handled by another company now.

Well, that about covers it for now. Take it easy.

-- Josh Harrison -- mataxes@****.net
"When Fate taps you on the shoulder, you'd best pay attention.
Unfortunately, she has the blasted habit of tapping you on the
opposite shoulder, so that when you turn around she's actually
on your other side, giggling like a schoolgirl. I hate that."

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 19:23:19 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 44 > > That would be me, Josh. As far as that being
official, the general consensus is that the novels are
not canon material.
>
> They're generally regarded as not canon when it
comes to the rules of the game, as you sort of said in
your next sentence, but (it looks like) without
realizing it :) What this means is that you can't
really say (using SRII rules, as this won't work in
SR3 anymore) "Dead wood blocks astral projection like
living wood does, because in Burning Bright the main
character stands with his back to a wooden door so the
insect spirits can't attack him from behind."
>
> That's something else entirely from saying that the
stories in the novels aren't canon.
> Gurth@******.nl -

*shrug*

Whatever.

A lot of them certainly aren't "canon" in my game and
IMNSHO SHOULDN'T be canon material, but that's not my
call.

Btw, Josh, as the resident ED guru, could you do me a
favour? I've just started expanding my ED collection
(drastically - due to a GST being introduced, ED books
are 40% off at my usual store until June 30 :) ). I
was wondering, could you tell me the order for the ED
novels? The ones I've gotten so far haven't had a list
of any kind in them.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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From:	Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:55:49 -0400

Message no. 45 ----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
> Btw, Josh, as the resident ED guru, could you do me a
> favour? I've just started expanding my ED collection
> (drastically - due to a GST being introduced, ED books
> are 40% off at my usual store until June 30 :) ). I
> was wondering, could you tell me the order for the ED
> novels? The ones I've gotten so far haven't had a list
> of any kind in them.

Certainly. The order of the novels is as follows:

The Longing Ring by Chris Kubasik
Mother Speaks by Chris Kubasik
Poisoned Memories by Chris Kubasik
Prophecy by Greg Gorden
Talisman anthology edited by Sam Lewis
Shroud of Madness by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
Lost Kaer by Nigel Findley*

*This one is really hard to find. FASA had it up at their website (I don't
know if they still do or not), and supposedly published a hard copy version
of it, but I've never seen one. It is notable as the last thing the late
Master Findley produced.

There were two other novels that weren't published in the States, the first
two parts of Caroline Spector's trilogy (the last part is "Worlds Without
End"). "Scars" and "Little Treasures" were published in Europe,
in both
German and French, IIRC.

The only ones where the order matters are the first three, as they are a
trilogy. The others can actually be read in any order, and happen after the
first trilogy.

Glad to be of assistance.

-- Josh

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:53:38 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 46 > Certainly. The order of the novels is as follows:
>
> The Longing Ring by Chris Kubasik
> Mother Speaks by Chris Kubasik
> Poisoned Memories by Chris Kubasik
> Prophecy by Greg Gorden
> Talisman anthology edited by Sam Lewis
> Shroud of Madness by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
> Lost Kaer by Nigel Findley*
>
> *This one is really hard to find. FASA had it up at
their website (I don't know if they still do or not),
and supposedly published a hard copy version of it,
but I've never seen one. It is notable as the last
thing the late Master Findley produced.

You're kidding. :) That was the first one I picked up.
;)

> There were two other novels that weren't published
in the States, the first two parts of Caroline
Spector's trilogy (the last part is "Worlds Without
End"). "Scars" and "Little Treasures" were published
in Europe, in both German and French, IIRC.

I know all about those...the "lost books"...;)

> The only ones where the order matters are the first
three, as they are a trilogy. The others can actually
be read in any order, and happen after the first
trilogy.
>
> Glad to be of assistance.
> -- Josh

And you were. Thanks very much, Josh.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

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From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:16:03 +1000

Message no. 47 -----Original Message-----
From: Josh Harrison <mataxes@****.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, June 23, 2000 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: The ED/SR Connection

>All right, now for the real reason I'm posting this. I sent an e-mail to
Lou
>Prosperi last night (he was Line Developer for Earthdawn's entire run)
>asking him about the "official" status of the link between Shadowrun and
>Earthdawn. Here's what he had to say:
>

Love it! I always thought that saying Earthdawn and Shadowrun links weren't
canon was like saying you believe in Santa even after seeing your parents
stuffing in the toys that you saw a month ago in the cupboard. I mean, it's
your business whether the two are linked in your games, and nothing should
change that, but it's nice to see the issue cleared up like that.
Except that Was linked before Mr Mulvihil and Are linked now are two
seperate things entirely :?)

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:18:41 +0200

Message no. 48 According to Spike, at 18:31 on 22 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> > Yeah, Dave(snhm) pointed this one out to me off the list, I guess I must be
> > stupid; I had to have it pointed out to me that the Netherlands=Holland :)>
>
> EEEEEP!!!!
>
> <Dives for Gurths stairs and awaits the ICBC attack>

In fact, what I pointed out to Phil not very long ago, was that Holland is
only one-sixth of the Netherlands, in terms of number of provinces. It
seems he misunderstood what I was trying to say...

Spike, good to see you haven't lost his reflexes yet, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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From:	Scot Hayworth scoth@*********.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:14:33 -0600

Message no. 49 >From: Simon and Fiona [mailto:sfuller@******.com.au]
>Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:16 AM
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: The ED/SR Connection

>>All right, now for the real reason I'm posting this. I sent an e-mail to
>Lou
>>Prosperi last night (he was Line Developer for Earthdawn's entire run)
>>asking him about the "official" status of the link between Shadowrun and
>>Earthdawn. Here's what he had to say:

>Love it! I always thought that saying Earthdawn and Shadowrun links weren't
>canon was like saying you believe in Santa even after seeing your parents
>stuffing in the toys that you saw a month ago in the cupboard. I mean, it's
>your business whether the two are linked in your games, and nothing should
>change that, but it's nice to see the issue cleared up like that.
>Except that Was linked before Mr Mulvihil and Are linked now are two
>seperate things entirely :?)

I have always thought that Gameline development occurs for months even years
before product release... I could be wrong and prolly am. Im sure they have
discussed the connection for at least weeks before Earthdawn went on sale.

Scot

From:	Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject:	The ED/SR Connection
Date:	Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:20:02 -0500

Message no. 50 On Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:16:03 +1000 "Simon and Fiona"
<sfuller@******.com.au> writes:
<SNIP>
> Except that Was linked before Mr Mulvihil and Are linked now are two
> seperate things entirely :?)

Actually, to the best of my knowledge, they aren't. I seem to recall
something about laying off the IEs-and-Dragons-behind-everything-plots
... /for now/.

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 51 > Spike, good to see you haven't lost his reflexes yet, though :)

Lost whose reflexes yet????
:)
(I don't tend to look after anyone elses)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| spike1@*******.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 52 On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:55:49 -0400 "Josh Harrison" <mataxes@****.net>
writes:
> Lost Kaer by Nigel Findley*
>
> *This one is really hard to find. FASA had it up at their website (I
> don't
> know if they still do or not), and supposedly published a hard copy
> version
> of it, but I've never seen one. It is notable as the last thing the
> late
> Master Findley produced.

I have the regular paper back, but I never heard they were (or rather
had) coming out with a hardcover.
<shrug>
I looked on FASA's site, but the ED section has been pretty much ignored.

> There were two other novels that weren't published in the States,
> the first
> two parts of Caroline Spector's trilogy (the last part is "Worlds
> Without
> End"). "Scars" and "Little Treasures" were published in
Europe, in
> both
> German and French, IIRC.

A kind old gamer from France IIRC, had a summary that he emailed on
request. I don't know if he's still out there, but it does give the high
points of Aina and such, and explains the "reaching for immortality"
picture in teh main book.

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

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Message no. 53 ----- Original Message -----
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>
> > Lost Kaer by Nigel Findley*
> >
>
> I have the regular paper back, but I never heard they were (or rather
> had) coming out with a hardcover.
> <shrug>
> I looked on FASA's site, but the ED section has been pretty much ignored.

I didn't mean it was produced hardcover, but that it was available printed
on paper, instead of solely electronic.

To be honest, since I read the book on the website, I haven't bothered to
track down a physical copy of the book. I might put some effort in now,
because it would be good to have. Anyhow...

-- Josh

Message no. 54 According to Spike, at 21:11 on 23 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> > Spike, good to see you haven't lost his reflexes yet, though :)
>
> Lost whose reflexes yet????
> :)
> (I don't tend to look after anyone elses)

You know, _his_ *points to random passer-by* reflexes. You're supposed to
keep them safe! Are you saying you're not?!

(This is what you get for trying to change a sentence around before
sending your message out :) Originally, it said something like "Good to
see Spike hasn't lost his reflexes yet, though" but I decided "Spike, good
to see you haven't lost your reflexes yet, though" was better. This
mistake just makes it look stupid, however :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 55 >From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>In fact, what I pointed out to Phil not very long ago, was that Holland is
>only one-sixth of the Netherlands, in terms of number of provinces. It
>seems he misunderstood what I was trying to say...

Nah, I knew what you ment, I just never made the link between the two; I
recognise all the steriotypes for Holland but Netherlands means little to me
:)>

Phil

These are my principles; if you don't like them I have some others.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 56 > > Lost Kaer by Nigel Findley*
> >
> > *This one is really hard to find. FASA had it up
at their website (I don't know if they still do or
not), and supposedly published a hard copy version of
it, but I've never seen one. It is notable as the last
thing the late Master Findley produced.
>
> I have the regular paper back, but I never heard
they were (or rather had) coming out with a hardcover.
<shrug> I looked on FASA's site, but the ED section
has been pretty much ignored.
<Snippola(TM)>
> Vocenoctum

Voce, buddy - hard COPY, not hardCOVER. As in, on
paper. :)

Hard CORE...hard HAT...hard HEAD...

Hmmm...

*Doc's brain melts down............

...more............*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 57 >
>*Doc's brain melts down............
>
>...more............*
>
>====>Doc'
>(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka
Doc' Vader)
>
>.sig Sauer
>
>Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!
>

Can you smell that the doc' is cookin???!?!?!

Message no. 58 > >*Doc's brain melts down............
> >
> >...more............*
> >
> >====> >Doc'
> >(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of
Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)
> >
> >.sig Sauer
> >
> >Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!
>
> Can you smell that the doc' is cookin???!?!?!

Ummm...yeah, that too. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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