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Message no. 1
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:19:13 +0000
Hmmm...

I've been toying with various melee combat rules I've found on the
net, and during the process discovered the fastest man (or woman -
let's be PC ;P) on Earth.
I'll show it on the example:
Our example man (let's call him Musashi, for simplicity's sake) is
walking through the 'plex, enyoing the sun.. err.. rain, when he sees
an approaching band of 20 Gurth's Elven Speedsams (let's calle them
Gurth 1 to 20, for simplicity's sake ;PPP ).
They decide to beat up on poor Musashi. They do not have any ranged
weapons with them (or the example will finish rather quickly). So
they pull out their clubs and charge Musashi.
Now, Musashi is our standard "40-dice-in-melee-combat" physad with
Armed Combat Aptitude, few points of Pain resistance, katana and a
weapon focus wakizashi. He stands with his back to the wall, and
prepares for the charge. First, let's assume he keeps the Combat Pool
dice in reserve, so he rolls about 30 dice.
The maximum number of Speedsams that can attack him is about 3, so he
gets +2 to his TN and they get -2. He has a Reach advantage, though,
so that cancels out one "Friend in melee".
On the average, a Speedsam rolls up to 13 dice against a TN of 3,
while Musashi rolls circa 30 dice against a TN of 4. Thats, on the
average, 8 successes vs circa 15 successes. So a Speedsam that
attacks Musashi is cut up pretty badly (net 7 successes, while 6 are
needed for a Deadly wound). (They are pretty stubborn, though)
Well, let's begin.
Musashi has init of, well, let's say 8+2D6, for a max of 22.
Speedsams have init of (what was that again?) IIRC 20-something +
4D6, making for an average init of 34+ and max init of 44+.
Speedsam 1 attacks at 40+ and is cut up. Speedsam 2 attacks at 40+
and is cut up. Speedsam 3 (you get the idea). All Speedsams manage to
get cut up, unless the bodies prevent them from coming near Musashi.
So, Musashi has just cut up 20-odd samurai, and it's probably not his
turn to act yet. ;P Effectively, he has executed 20 complex actions
(melee combat is a complex action), and each complex action takes up
10 Combat Phases. So, he had an effective initiative of 200+.

Is that fast, or what?

;P

(and yes, I am bored and I ain't got nothing better to do...)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Have wife, must travel.
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:24:07 -0700
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
/
[snip: defender able to take down multiple attackers without cost]
/
/ Is that fast, or what?

Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
attacker basically gets a free shot.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Danyel Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:31:07 +1300
So sayeth Leszek Karlik (aka Mike) (1619 25-11-97)
>>{CHOP human meat-grinder example}<<
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
So, Musashi has just cut up 20-odd samurai, and it's probably
not his
turn to act yet. ;P Effectively, he has executed 20 complex
actions
(melee combat is a complex action), and each complex action
takes up
10 Combat Phases. So, he had an effective initiative of 200+.

Is that fast, or what?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Yeah, that's kind of a loophole in the rules. Suggestion? Make Melee
Combat an Opposed Test (if it isn't already, under house rules), but the
man with the higher initiative has an advantage. If they are making a
melee attack, and the victim (fighter with lower initiative) gets more
successes, they cannot cause harm - they simply knock the attacker back,
throwing him off his stride. No-one may actually cause harm until their
Combat Phase comes up.

Of course, you may find this preposterous. Be gentle: it's a suggestion
off the top of my head, so I can't say much for its Game Balance (ugh,
that hated phrase!!).

DANYEL WOODS
9604801@********.ac.nz
Here endeth the lesson.
Message no. 4
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:26:34 -0500
At 08:24 PM 11/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
>target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
>phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
>attacker basically gets a free shot.

Something that 1st ed handled well: you only get your Defense Pool dice to
defend, it refreshes when you act, you get to decide how to divide them
between incoming attacks. You can stomp down oncoming attackers only as
long as your dice hold out. :) Defense Pool was based off your melee skill
in use (armed or unarmed), rather than attributes, and so knowing how to
fight meant more than anything when faced with a group of angry
knife-wielders.

losthalo
Message no. 5
From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:02:43 +1100
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, losthalo wrote:

> >Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
> >target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
> >phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
> >attacker basically gets a free shot.
>
> Something that 1st ed handled well: you only get your Defense Pool dice to
> defend, it refreshes when you act, you get to decide how to divide them
> between incoming attacks. You can stomp down oncoming attackers only as
> long as your dice hold out. :) Defense Pool was based off your melee skill
> in use (armed or unarmed), rather than attributes, and so knowing how to
> fight meant more than anything when faced with a group of angry
> knife-wielders.

One version I've considered using is giving the defender a penalty of one
or two per defense after the first and/or giving the attacker a bonus of
the same amount. Kinda like recoil. It means that, while yes you CAN
defend against ten people per action, you aren't really likely to.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:04:47 -0600
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

<Huge SNIP>

> get cut up, unless the bodies prevent them from coming near Musashi.
> So, Musashi has just cut up 20-odd samurai, and it's probably not his
> turn to act yet. ;P Effectively, he has executed 20 complex actions
> (melee combat is a complex action), and each complex action takes up
> 10 Combat Phases. So, he had an effective initiative of 200+.
>
> Is that fast, or what?
>
> ;P
>
I think the major problem that I have with this is that your treating them
as All individual attacks, instead of one big attack on one person,
happening almost at once. As I see it, as a martial artist, a master, 10+
base skill dice, can disable as many attackers as needed while taking
minimal damage, add a katana, and he should be able to take on all of
them no problem. As long as they are of 2/3's or sell skill. The main
problem I have is SR's inititave system, I like the scaling and gradeing,
but for the amount of shit that goes down it shoul last for about 10
seconds instead of 3... Just IM(ns)HO...

-=>Czar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5648
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality!? Is that some new game?"
-MDF
"I'll need morphine, lots of it, and a pistol."
-The English Patient
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: HAUPT ULRICH FB08 <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:45:25 MEZ-1MESZ
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" wrote:


> I've been toying with various melee combat rules I've found on the
> net, and during the process discovered the fastest man (or woman -
> let's be PC ;P) on Earth.
> I'll show it on the example:
<snip>

In my campaign we have invented the following house rule:

In melee attack the defender can only defend himself from attacks. He
can not damage or kill the attacker even if he gains more succsesses.
IMO this represents the defending situation in a much better way.

In your case this house rule solves the problem with the 30 kills in
one complex actions (though it stays that many defence action - just
not a perfect simulation I admit).
This means that your physadd could only kill about 4 guys in a melee
round. The combat will need about 8 rounds to kill all Sams. I think
at least one time they will succeed in attacking the "fastest man on
earth".
- more realistic IMO -

Sandman
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:42:03 -0500
On Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 08:24:07PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
> /
> [snip: defender able to take down multiple attackers without cost]
> /
> / Is that fast, or what?
>
> Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
> target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
> phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
> attacker basically gets a free shot.
>
Hmm..not a bad rule. But what happens when the defender has
two weapons? One attack and one defense? Two of each?
I've seen a few individuals (these were a rarity of course) who
were good enough with two weapons to do such things.
Then again, I'm bringing a reality example to this. Bad...:)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:56:50 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ On Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 08:24:07PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
/ > Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
/ > /
/ > [snip: defender able to take down multiple attackers without cost]
/ > /
/ > / Is that fast, or what?
/ >
/ > Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
/ > target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
/ > phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
/ > attacker basically gets a free shot.
/ >
/ Hmm..not a bad rule. But what happens when the defender has
/ two weapons? One attack and one defense? Two of each?
/ I've seen a few individuals (these were a rarity of course) who
/ were good enough with two weapons to do such things.

In that case I would fudge it and let him defend against two
attackers. Of course he would be dividing his combat pool...

/ Then again, I'm bringing a reality example to this. Bad...:)

Thwak (a back-handed thwap) :)

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:12:56 -0700
losthalo wrote:
/
/ Something that 1st ed handled well: you only get your Defense Pool dice to
/ defend, it refreshes when you act, you get to decide how to divide them
/ between incoming attacks. You can stomp down oncoming attackers only as
/ long as your dice hold out. :) Defense Pool was based off your melee skill
/ in use (armed or unarmed), rather than attributes, and so knowing how to
/ fight meant more than anything when faced with a group of angry
/ knife-wielders.

Oh yeah... I had completely forgotten about that. Hm... <ponders
how to do it with SRII>

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:42:01 -0500
On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:56:50AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / On Mon, Nov 24, 1997 at 08:24:07PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> / > Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
> / > /
> / > [snip: defender able to take down multiple attackers without cost]
> / > /
> / > / Is that fast, or what?
> / >
> / > Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
> / > target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
> / > phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
> / > attacker basically gets a free shot.
> / >
> / Hmm..not a bad rule. But what happens when the defender has
> / two weapons? One attack and one defense? Two of each?
> / I've seen a few individuals (these were a rarity of course) who
> / were good enough with two weapons to do such things.
>
> In that case I would fudge it and let him defend against two
> attackers. Of course he would be dividing his combat pool...
>
> / Then again, I'm bringing a reality example to this. Bad...:)
>
> Thwak (a back-handed thwap) :)
>
Heh..my first Thwap. (Sorta). I feel special now.
I like the rule mentioned from 1st edition (Guess I should
pull that classic out of the closet and take a look).
Of course I don't remember two weapons ever being "fully"
mentioned in 1st edition. Sounds like a requst for the SR3 wish list. :)
Hmm...I guess it also depends on how you treat two weapons (two
seperate attacks, one attack more power, etc).
Gives me something to ponder while my code is compiling. Later.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:10:03 -0700
Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:56:50AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
/ > Lehlan Decker wrote:
/ > /
/ > / > Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:

/ > / Hmm..not a bad rule. But what happens when the defender has
/ > / two weapons? One attack and one defense? Two of each?
/ > / I've seen a few individuals (these were a rarity of course) who
/ > / were good enough with two weapons to do such things.
/ >
/ > In that case I would fudge it and let him defend against two
/ > attackers. Of course he would be dividing his combat pool...
/ >
/ I like the rule mentioned from 1st edition (Guess I should
/ pull that classic out of the closet and take a look).

Ditto that. I'm going back to the Defense Pool for unarmed combat.

/ Of course I don't remember two weapons ever being "fully"
/ mentioned in 1st edition. Sounds like a requst for the SR3 wish list. :)
/ Hmm...I guess it also depends on how you treat two weapons (two
/ seperate attacks, one attack more power, etc).
/ Gives me something to ponder while my code is compiling. Later.

The easiest way would to give a +1 Reach bonus for using two
weapons.

Alternativley you could multiply the defense pool by 1.5.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: "Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:34:17 -0500
In my game, I have changed the way dice pools are done. They refresh on
initiative, but, are at double value. This makes the skill of the
person so much more important. It also means that a beginning character
will not be able to take 3 opponents. It happened in my game. It is
balanced by not being able to allocate more than half of the pool to any
dice roll and by not being able add more pool dice than the original
skill. Noone has reflex boosters yet so the pools go quite far.
However, as they run into faster people and want to bring themselves up
to speed, they will discover that the pools will not go nearly as far
and that their skills are much more important. Please understand that
this is a house rule, but it fixes the broken melee system. They still
can counterattack, but cannot do nearly as much damage during their
normal attack.

Galen
Message no. 14
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:01:19 +0100
At 18:02 25/11/1997 +1100, you wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, losthalo wrote:
>
>> >Yep. Unarmed combat is broken. The quickest fix is to limit a
>> >target to one defense per phase. If he's attacked twice on the same
>> >phase he has to decide which one to defend against. The other
>> >attacker basically gets a free shot.
>>
>> Something that 1st ed handled well: you only get your Defense Pool dice to
>> defend, it refreshes when you act, you get to decide how to divide them
>> between incoming attacks. You can stomp down oncoming attackers only as
>> long as your dice hold out. :) Defense Pool was based off your melee skill
>> in use (armed or unarmed), rather than attributes, and so knowing how to
>> fight meant more than anything when faced with a group of angry
>> knife-wielders.
>
>One version I've considered using is giving the defender a penalty of one
>or two per defense after the first and/or giving the attacker a bonus of
>the same amount. Kinda like recoil. It means that, while yes you CAN
>defend against ten people per action, you aren't really likely to.
>
>Guardian

**
Well, seems that I barged into this thread a bit late. But...
I chose this reply to the question because I thought this is the most
'realistic' solution. My reasons (Be warned, I'm gonna bring that nasty
thing called 'reality' into this.;)):
1)You definitly _can_ defend yourself against more persons then one. It's
not easy, but it can be done. Therefore, I'd make the TN-modifier +2.
2)In HTH-combat, when your opponent attacks you, you look for openings to
counterattack. Therefore, I say you _can_ do damage while you're not the one
attacking.

Well, that's it. I've used what I've seen and done in RL. Hope I haven't
barged into any open doors. (Manage to do that sometimes... ;))

Jod
chatin@*******.nl

'People die. They just can't help themselves.'
-me
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:15:12 +0100
J. G. du Chatinier said on 23:01/25 Nov 97...

> 1)You definitly _can_ defend yourself against more persons then one. It's
> not easy, but it can be done. Therefore, I'd make the TN-modifier +2.

There's a modifier called "Friends in melee" which gives you a -1 per
friend, and also a modifier "Opponent has friends in melee" that gives a
+1 modifier per friend to your tests (both to a maximum of 4). This makes
it harder to defend when there are multiple people around you, but not
impossible.

> 2)In HTH-combat, when your opponent attacks you, you look for openings to
> counterattack. Therefore, I say you _can_ do damage while you're not the one
> attacking.

Though it's slightly unrealistic that onl one of the two people involved
can actually score a hit. IMHO it's very well possible that if I try to
hit you and you counterattack, we both strike (or both miss) the other.

This can be solved by adding a house rule: the attacker and defender both
roll their skill test; anyone who gets successes hits the opponent and
will do damage.
However, this make it a bit too easy to hit people in melee combat, so
perhaps the base TN should be increased to something like 5?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 16
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:10:01 +0100
At 12:15 26/11/1997 +0100, you wrote:
>J. G. du Chatinier said on 23:01/25 Nov 97...
>
>> 1)You definitly _can_ defend yourself against more persons then one. It's
>> not easy, but it can be done. Therefore, I'd make the TN-modifier +2.
>
>There's a modifier called "Friends in melee" which gives you a -1 per
>friend, and also a modifier "Opponent has friends in melee" that gives a
>+1 modifier per friend to your tests (both to a maximum of 4). This makes
>it harder to defend when there are multiple people around you, but not
>impossible.
**Yes, I'm awara of that rule. But I thought of making it culmulative with
the rule I proposed. However, I was a bit vague. I meant, after each attack
you've defended against you get a +2 modifier. Harsh? Maybe....

>> 2)In HTH-combat, when your opponent attacks you, you look for openings to
>> counterattack. Therefore, I say you _can_ do damage while you're not the one
>> attacking.
>
>Though it's slightly unrealistic that onl one of the two people involved
>can actually score a hit. IMHO it's very well possible that if I try to
>hit you and you counterattack, we both strike (or both miss) the other.
***Yes, that's true...

>This can be solved by adding a house rule: the attacker and defender both
>roll their skill test; anyone who gets successes hits the opponent and
>will do damage.
**Hmmmm..

>However, this make it a bit too easy to hit people in melee combat, so
>perhaps the base TN should be increased to something like 5?
***Well, I'd say that the defending player gets a higher TN. 5 like you
said. Whaddabout this? The players have the choice of putting their dice in
counterattacking, or evading the attack.
Oh my, this is getting awfully realistic... ;) I mean, we undoubtedly will
get style-vs.-style soon. ;). For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat
Jokotole. So, that's out. ;)

Jod
chatin@*******.nl

'People, can't live with them, can't kill enough to make a difference.'
-Somewhere out of the Knobi Klub quotes..
Message no. 17
From: Mirko Cegledi <storm@**********.INFORMATIK.FH-DORTMUND.DE>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:29:41 +0100
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Gurth wrote:

[snippety snippety snippety snip snip :)]

> This can be solved by adding a house rule: the attacker and defender both
> roll their skill test; anyone who gets successes hits the opponent and
> will do damage.
> However, this make it a bit too easy to hit people in melee combat, so
> perhaps the base TN should be increased to something like 5?
>
Uhm, would be just another of the countless rules exceptions in SR.
Please, let the base TN at 4... ;)

Cu... Mirko

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G@ e h r y?
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Message no. 18
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:39:19 -0500
On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 01:10:03PM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / On Tue, Nov 25, 1997 at 06:56:50AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> / > Lehlan Decker wrote:
> / > /
> / > / > Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
>
> / > / Hmm..not a bad rule. But what happens when the defender has
> / > / two weapons? One attack and one defense? Two of each?
> / > / I've seen a few individuals (these were a rarity of course) who
> / > / were good enough with two weapons to do such things.
> / >
> / > In that case I would fudge it and let him defend against two
> / > attackers. Of course he would be dividing his combat pool...
> / >
> / I like the rule mentioned from 1st edition (Guess I should
> / pull that classic out of the closet and take a look).
>
> Ditto that. I'm going back to the Defense Pool for unarmed combat.
>

Didn't they reintroduce it or was it the Dodge pool in the SR. Comp?
Heh..should have brought my books to work.


> / Of course I don't remember two weapons ever being "fully"
> / mentioned in 1st edition. Sounds like a requst for the SR3 wish list. :)
> / Hmm...I guess it also depends on how you treat two weapons (two
> / seperate attacks, one attack more power, etc).
> / Gives me something to ponder while my code is compiling. Later.
>
> The easiest way would to give a +1 Reach bonus for using two
> weapons.
>
> Alternativley you could multiply the defense pool by 1.5.
>

I like that idea, might be worth adding to my house rules.
Shouldn't be that unbalancing either. Have to let my villian
use it in the next game. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 19
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:28:06 -0500
Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
[snip]
> > 2)In HTH-combat, when your opponent attacks you, you look for openings to
> > counterattack. Therefore, I say you _can_ do damage while you're not the
one
> > attacking.
>
> Though it's slightly unrealistic that onl one of the two people involved
> can actually score a hit. IMHO it's very well possible that if I try to
> hit you and you counterattack, we both strike (or both miss) the other.

There's also the all-out attack (or defense). I can run at
somebody and stick a sword into them without much difficulty.
Doing it without getting hurt or killed in the process is much
tougher.

> This can be solved by adding a house rule: the attacker and defender both
> roll their skill test; anyone who gets successes hits the opponent and
> will do damage.
> However, this make it a bit too easy to hit people in melee combat, so
> perhaps the base TN should be increased to something like 5?

Or perhaps another mechanic is called for? How about declaring
how many successes you will use to defend (or attack) before
rolling. You then get defense successes and counterattack
successes...

James Ojaste
Message no. 20
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:05:08 PST
>***Well, I'd say that the defending player gets a higher TN. 5 like you
>said. Whaddabout this? The players have the choice of putting their
dice in
>counterattacking, or evading the attack.

Already can, with the optional rule for full defense (in the BBB). With
full defense, you don't get combatpool on the counter-attack, can't do
damage, but you get to use any or all thecombat pool youwant fordamage
resistance, and canget a "complete miss" as with a ranged attack if you
roll enough combat pool sucess.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:09:43 +0100
Mirko Cegledi said on 13:29/26 Nov 97...

> > However, this make it a bit too easy to hit people in melee combat, so
> > perhaps the base TN should be increased to something like 5?
> >
> Uhm, would be just another of the countless rules exceptions in SR.
> Please, let the base TN at 4... ;)

I don't think that's a smart idea, because it will result in a lot more
hits in melee combat, and those hits will have more successes behind them
than they currently tend to have.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:09:43 +0100
J. G. du Chatinier said on 13:10/26 Nov 97...

[Friends in melee]
> **Yes, I'm awara of that rule. But I thought of making it culmulative with
> the rule I proposed. However, I was a bit vague. I meant, after each attack
> you've defended against you get a +2 modifier. Harsh? Maybe....

How about charging a Free Action to defend against an attack? That way you
can't really defend against more than one attack, though.

> >However, this make it a bit too easy to hit people in melee combat, so
> >perhaps the base TN should be increased to something like 5?
> ***Well, I'd say that the defending player gets a higher TN. 5 like you
> said.

I meant for both attacker and defender -- because there is nothing that
will offset the original attacker's successes, hits would be much more
frequent if the TN is kept at a 4, while raising it slightly will decrease
the times everyone hits the other.

> Whaddabout this? The players have the choice of putting their dice in
> counterattacking, or evading the attack.

Already possible: you can choose to counter-attack or to defend when
someone makes a melee attack against you. If you counter-attack, you can
use Combat Pool dice on your own Unarmed Combat test but not on your Body
test, while if you defend you can't add the CP dice to the Unarmed Combat
test, but you _can_ use them to resist the damage.

> For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's out.
> ;)

I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We must remember that the news itself is only entertainment.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 23
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:08:02 +0100
At 21:09 26/11/1997 +0100, you wrote:

<<Big KA-SNIP here. Will answer some other time. ;)>>>


>
>> For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's out.
>> ;)
>
>I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*

*LOLRMAO!!!!* Oh dear. That was a _very_ good one. Gobbo, you read this?

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
Message no. 24
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: AW: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:20:18 +-100
>> For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's out.
>> ;)
>
>I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*

*LOLRMAO!!!!* Oh dear. That was a _very_ good one. Gobbo, you read this?

Uhu....But me follow way of Dwarf....Taste better....

Lort Gob
teunissen@***.nl




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Message no. 25
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:55:51 +0000
On 26 Nov 97, Gurth disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> J. G. du Chatinier said on 13:10/26 Nov 97...
>
> [Friends in melee]
> > **Yes, I'm awara of that rule. But I thought of making it culmulative with
> > the rule I proposed. However, I was a bit vague. I meant, after each attack
> > you've defended against you get a +2 modifier. Harsh? Maybe....
>
> How about charging a Free Action to defend against an attack? That
> way you can't really defend against more than one attack, though.

Actually, I'm in a process of creating a simple melee combat system
called SMACK (Shadowrun Martial Arts and Close Kombat - ehh... sorry
for the name. ;P). Now, I'm doing it 'cause all the MA systems I've
found on the net are too complicated for my GM's tastes (sheesh), but
the way I've done defending is that you can either:
use an Evade maneuver, rolling only Combat Pool dice against a TN
depenent of your skill, reach and other stuff - just like defending
vs. firearms (and if you don't get enough successes for a clean
miss, you get to add your successes to the resistance test)
or
sacrifice your next Simple action to get a simple action for a
defense maneuver (block or evade), or a counterattack (which is
basically a stopping blow, requiring a given number of net successes
to work).
(I've made maneuvers into simple action. This way, in Complex
action, you get 2 maneuvers, and in classical SR2 melee combat, this
is represented by attack and defense...)
or
you can sacrifice your next Complex action and get a complex action
to use a combination you know (combinations are two simple actions
executed in one Complex action; also, people with high skill can
learn, for Karma, three-action combos)

Oh, and even if you do sacrifice your next action and block instead,
your Pools will refresh when you would have acted normally, not when
you're blocking. So one can run out of Pool dice pretty quickly...

<snip>

> > For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's out.
> > ;)

BTW: Isn't this Pentjak Silat?

> I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*

Hmmm... Way of the Carp... This brings a kinda weird image of this
old, funny smelling master trashing about on the floor, trying to
look like a carp... I don't think the combat effectiveness of the Way
of the Carp rates high in MA ranking... ;P
Unless, of course, it is designed to incapacitate opponents by the
use of the smell. (Sheesh.)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!
Message no. 26
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:26:31 +0100
At 16:55 27/11/1997 +0000, you wrote:
>On 26 Nov 97, Gurth disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
>writing:
<<<KA-SNIP!>>


>Actually, I'm in a process of creating a simple melee combat system
>called SMACK (Shadowrun Martial Arts and Close Kombat - ehh... sorry
>for the name. ;P). Now, I'm doing it 'cause all the MA systems I've
>found on the net are too complicated for my GM's tastes (sheesh), but
>the way I've done defending is that you can either:
>use an Evade maneuver, rolling only Combat Pool dice against a TN
>depenent of your skill, reach and other stuff - just like defending
>vs. firearms (and if you don't get enough successes for a clean
>miss, you get to add your successes to the resistance test)
>or
>sacrifice your next Simple action to get a simple action for a
>defense maneuver (block or evade), or a counterattack (which is
>basically a stopping blow, requiring a given number of net successes
>to work).
>(I've made maneuvers into simple action. This way, in Complex
>action, you get 2 maneuvers, and in classical SR2 melee combat, this
>is represented by attack and defense...)
>or
>you can sacrifice your next Complex action and get a complex action
>to use a combination you know (combinations are two simple actions
>executed in one Complex action; also, people with high skill can
>learn, for Karma, three-action combos)
**Hmmmm, this sounds nice! All except for the name that is... I mean, SMACK? ;)
And it even sounds quite realistic too....

>Oh, and even if you do sacrifice your next action and block instead,
>your Pools will refresh when you would have acted normally, not when
>you're blocking. So one can run out of Pool dice pretty quickly...
**No prob. with that..


><snip>
>
>> > For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's out.
>> > ;)
>
>BTW: Isn't this Pentjak Silat?
**Runs over to room to check.*** Well, I've searched my 'archives' a bit,
and I've seen it written only as Pencak, with a c. I'll ask my Bapak tomorrow...


>> I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*
>
>Hmmm... Way of the Carp... This brings a kinda weird image of this
>old, funny smelling master trashing about on the floor, trying to
>look like a carp... I don't think the combat effectiveness of the Way
>of the Carp rates high in MA ranking... ;P
>Unless, of course, it is designed to incapacitate opponents by the
>use of the smell. (Sheesh.)
***Well, I think it would be based on a lot of walking sidewards and hiding
under rocks.. :)


Jod
chatin@*******.nl

"Today will be the day you die!"
-"Been there, done that, got the T-shirt."

Pick an undead, any undead.
Message no. 27
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: AW: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:26:39 +0100
At 11:20 27/11/1997 +-100, you wrote:
>>> For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's out.
>>> ;)
>>
>>I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*
>
>*LOLRMAO!!!!* Oh dear. That was a _very_ good one. Gobbo, you read this?
>
>Uhu....But me follow way of Dwarf....Taste better....

*sigh* Ogre-brain talkin' again... ;)
BTW Gobbo, you still have that stupid attachment thing at the end of your
mail...

<<<TWHAP!>>>

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
Message no. 28
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:32:13 +0000
On 27 Nov 97, J. G. du Chatinier disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

> At 16:55 27/11/1997 +0000, you wrote:
<snip the outline of my new unarmed combat ruleset>

> **Hmmmm, this sounds nice! All except for the name that is... I mean, SMACK? ;)
> And it even sounds quite realistic too....

Well, there's the alternative name:
SMASH
Simple Martial Arts system for SHadowrun
But it's not a "real" acronym... ;P It'd have to be SMASSH
and that kinda sucks... ;>

I'll prolly throw it to the carps.. err... lions here on the ShadowRN
when I'm finished (expect it this weekend)

<snip>

> >> > For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's
out.
> >> > ;)

> >BTW: Isn't this Pentjak Silat?
> **Runs over to room to check.*** Well, I've searched my 'archives' a bit,
> and I've seen it written only as Pencak, with a c. I'll ask my Bapak
> tomorrow...

Well, I have been wrong many times... (But then, I have been right
many times, too. ;P)

BTW: How long do you practice?

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; WTF TKD; FIAWOL;
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(dirty look) Im sorry, Im not allowed to argue any more
Message no. 29
From: "J. G. du Chatinier" <chatin@*******.NL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:34:18 +0100
At 18:32 27/11/1997 +0000, you wrote:
>On 27 Nov 97, J. G. du Chatinier disseminated foul capitalist
>propaganda by writing:
>
>> At 16:55 27/11/1997 +0000, you wrote:
><snip the outline of my new unarmed combat ruleset>
>
>> **Hmmmm, this sounds nice! All except for the name that is... I mean,
SMACK? ;)
>> And it even sounds quite realistic too....
>
>Well, there's the alternative name:
>SMASH
>Simple Martial Arts system for SHadowrun
>But it's not a "real" acronym... ;P It'd have to be SMASSH
>and that kinda sucks... ;>
***Yes, that wouldn't be right too.. ;)... Well, waddabout, CLAP! (Curious
Lightningbulb Atmosphere Pillows.) No? allright... ;)



>I'll prolly throw it to the carps.. err... lions here on the ShadowRN
>when I'm finished (expect it this weekend)
*** Well, I'll be eagerly awaitin' it!


><snip>
>
>> >> > For anyone interested, I practice Pencak Silat Jokotole. So, that's
out.
>> >> > ;)
>
>> >BTW: Isn't this Pentjak Silat?
>> **Runs over to room to check.*** Well, I've searched my 'archives' a bit,
>> and I've seen it written only as Pencak, with a c. I'll ask my Bapak
>> tomorrow...
>
>Well, I have been wrong many times... (But then, I have been right
>many times, too. ;P)
*** ;)... well, maybe it's the country... I mean, I live in Ho- .... oops,
almost went wring there. ;) In the Netherlands I mean.. :) So....


>BTW: How long do you practice?
**Well, three years now. Going for yellow at the end of this year... Do you
practice martial arts too?


CU'round,

Jod
chatin@*******.nl
Message no. 30
From: Lort Gob <teunissen@***.NL>
Subject: AW: AW: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:13:42 +-100
>>I follow the Way of the Carp, myself... *grin*
>
>*LOLRMAO!!!!* Oh dear. That was a _very_ good one. Gobbo, you read this?
>
>Uhu....But me follow way of Dwarf....Taste better....

*sigh* Ogre-brain talkin' again... ;)
BTW Gobbo, you still have that stupid attachment thing at the end of your
mail...

<<<TWHAP!>>>

Again ??? Geez....Com'on !! Well, folks....Hope it will be all better tomorrow.....
I mean....I got Eudora Pro now, but the thing is complaining about usercodes
and passwords....:(

Cu,

Lort Gob

PS: Last mail with attachment....Sorry...


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end
Message no. 31
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: AW: AW: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:45:02 -0500
At 27-Nov-97 wrote Lort Gob:



>PS: Last mail with attachment....Sorry...

We all hope so.

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Evil Overlord advice #50:

My main computers will have their own special operating system
that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and
Macintosh powerbooks.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 32
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:51:00 GMT
on 26.11.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> > 1)You definitly _can_ defend yourself against more persons then one. It's
g> > not easy, but it can be done. Therefore, I'd make the TN-modifier +2.
g>
g> There's a modifier called "Friends in melee" which gives you a -1 per
g> friend, and also a modifier "Opponent has friends in melee" that gives a
g> +1 modifier per friend to your tests (both to a maximum of 4). This makes
g> it harder to defend when there are multiple people around you, but not
g> impossible.

I've modified it, so you get the mod more relative to the number of
friends/enemies: Basically, if you have e.g. reach +2 and 6 enemies, you
have to make a AC(8) test, because the -2 from the reach is compensated by
two of the foes. This makes defending against multible enemies nearly
impossible, if there are, say 10 of them, as you'll always have to roll
against AC(8) minimum.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 33
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:40:11 +0000
On 28 Nov 97, Tobias Berghoff disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:

<snip enemies in melee bonus>

> I've modified it, so you get the mod more relative to the number of
> friends/enemies: Basically, if you have e.g. reach +2 and 6 enemies,
> you have to make a AC(8) test, because the -2 from the reach is
> compensated by two of the foes. This makes defending against
> multible enemies nearly impossible, if there are, say 10 of them, as
> you'll always have to roll against AC(8) minimum.

Hmmm... Well, I would not allow 10 people to attack 1 person in the
same time... The maximum amount of enemies in a fight is about 6,
with 4 leaving enough space for them to play in...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
I know my mind. And it's around here someplace.
Message no. 34
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: The fastest man on Earth
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:31:00 GMT
on 30.11.97 trrkt@*****.ONET.PL wrote:

t> <snip enemies in melee bonus>
t>
t> > I've modified it, so you get the mod more relative to the number of
t> > friends/enemies: Basically, if you have e.g. reach +2 and 6 enemies,
t> > you have to make a AC(8) test, because the -2 from the reach is
t> > compensated by two of the foes. This makes defending against
t> > multible enemies nearly impossible, if there are, say 10 of them, as
t> > you'll always have to roll against AC(8) minimum.
t>
t> Hmmm... Well, I would not allow 10 people to attack 1 person in the
t> same time... The maximum amount of enemies in a fight is about 6,
t> with 4 leaving enough space for them to play in...

I don't think that only those, who actually hit the char count. A mob of
20 people running down a single person is much more dangerous than 6.
Also, you'd be surprised of the amount of people able to kick a single
person on the ground at once.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------

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