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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:40:29 -0400
OK, I'm a little concerned here.

Anyone seen the ad for the new Michael Douglas/Sean Penn flick called "The
Game"?

To my eyes, it looks like it may be about a bunch of RPG players who try to
kill someone.
Anyone heard anything about this?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"One Angry Dwarf and 200 Solemn Faces"
Message no. 2
From: Wind Dancer <winddancer@***********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:46:56 -0400
At 12:40 AM 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
> OK, I'm a little concerned here.
>
>Anyone seen the ad for the new Michael Douglas/Sean Penn flick called "The
>Game"?
>
>To my eyes, it looks like it may be about a bunch of RPG players who try to
>kill someone.
>Anyone heard anything about this?

No, Ihavn't heard anything, but it should be real helpfull to the industry
as all news and unwanted publicity is.
Message no. 3
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:20:41 -0400
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> OK, I'm a little concerned here.
>
> Anyone seen the ad for the new Michael Douglas/Sean Penn flick called "The
> Game"?
>
> To my eyes, it looks like it may be about a bunch of RPG players who try to
> kill someone.
> Anyone heard anything about this?

Yeah, I saw this tonight. It gave me flashbacks of the 80's, when I
(and everyone else for that matter) was hot and heavy into AD&D, and the
uncomfortable questions my parents would ask...
God I hate trying to defend RPG's...

See ya!
--
Craig J Wilhelm Jr

Reality is nothing but a refuge for those who can't handle role-playing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/

ICQ UIN: 1864690

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Message no. 4
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:28:41 -0600
At 01:20 8/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
> God I hate trying to defend RPG's...

I don't, because nobody has ever lasted long enough in an argument with me
about it to win :) (Carrying SR books and a binder to every class at
school seems to start the argument fairly quickly..)

It always makes me wonder, the only place I ever get stopped on the street
by missionaries is right by the gaming store..

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 5
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:01:08 -0700
> Yeah, I saw this tonight. It gave me flashbacks of the 80's, when I
> (and everyone else for that matter) was hot and heavy into AD&D, and the
> uncomfortable questions my parents would ask...
> God I hate trying to defend RPG's...

Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 6
From: Technomancer <arvanit@***.UCH.GR>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:40:32 +0300
On Thu, 21 Aug 1997, GRANITE wrote:

> Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
> had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
> Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry..

You mean the movie 'Mazes & Monsters'?
That was the movie that had me craving for RPGs... 8)
(Not what was intended, but I found the game they were playing great, and
I think I am sane enough to distinguise (sp?) between reality and game)

*********************************************************************
* Technomancer * Modesty is one of my countless virtues *
* arvanit@***.uch.gr *
* http://www.csd.uch.gr/~arvanit/ *
*********************************************************************
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:54:09 -0600
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
| OK, I'm a little concerned here.
|
| Anyone seen the ad for the new Michael Douglas/Sean Penn flick called "The
| Game"?
|
| To my eyes, it looks like it may be about a bunch of RPG players who try to
| kill someone.
| Anyone heard anything about this?

I've seen the preview a couple of times, and I didn't see any
references to RPGs anywhere. It looked more like some sort of
techno-thriller to me.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 8
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:01:59 -0400
From what I could discern about the movie from the previews I've
seen, it's about a rich, and extremely bored bastard of a guy [played by
Michael Douglas], who, by a friend's suggestion[Sean Penn], goes to some
strange company that specializes in creating 'real life' thriller
scenerios for people, to spice up their drab lives.
But I guess when the bodies start dropping, things get a bit TOO
serious, and even though Michael Douglas wants out, Sean Penn's already
paid for the full treatment, and there's NO cancelling the contract.
Douglas gets really paranoid about who he can and can't trust, and whose
REALLY behind THE GAME.
Well, that's what I gathered...

Ko...Jak :-]
Message no. 9
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:12:51 +0000
On 21 Aug 97 at 10:01, Fisher, Victor wrote:

> Ko...Jak :-]
>

Your really living that up, aren't you? :)

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
A flying saucer results when a nudist spills his coffee.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 10
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 18:27:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-21 15:50:15 EDT, you write:

> I don't, because nobody has ever lasted long enough in an argument with me
> about it to win :) (Carrying SR books and a binder to every class at
> school seems to start the argument fairly quickly..)

Ah, one of those who always has a full backpack but never has their books
for class? =)

> It always makes me wonder, the only place I ever get stopped on the street
> by missionaries is right by the gaming store..

They have favorite places to lie in wait, hoping to save some poor,
misguided schmuck's soul, such as yourself. =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 11
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:08:43 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-21 19:10:29 EDT, you write:

<< No, Ihavn't heard anything, but it should be real helpfull to the industry
as all news and unwanted publicity is. >>

Intreasting statistic. To date there have only been 286 deaths associated to
RPGs. Unfortunetly the masses don't seem to care and blow things out of
proportion.

Roleplaying needs to become more mainstreamed. Right now, the gaming industry
only accounts for less than 1% of total retail sales.

-Bandit
Message no. 12
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:16:39 +0000
On 22 Aug 97 at 11:08, M. Sean Martinez wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-21 19:10:29 EDT, you write:
>
> << No, Ihavn't heard anything, but it should be real helpfull to the industry
> as all news and unwanted publicity is. >>
>
> Intreasting statistic. To date there have only been 286 deaths associated to
> RPGs. Unfortunetly the masses don't seem to care and blow things out of
> proportion.

Agreed on the second point, but one the first point, sorry, but
that's utter BS. A game can't kill anybody. If some unstable
individual happens to play one, and then kills himself or others, its
not the games fault.

Please don't start that clap trap again. I had enough of it in the
80's.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
Does fuzzy logic tickle?

----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:20:11 -0500
At 11:16 AM 8/22/97 +0000, Drekhead wrote:
#On 22 Aug 97 at 11:08, M. Sean Martinez wrote:
#
#> In a message dated 97-08-21 19:10:29 EDT, you write:
#>
#> << No, Ihavn't heard anything, but it should be real helpfull to the
industry
#> as all news and unwanted publicity is. >>
#>
#> Intreasting statistic. To date there have only been 286 deaths
associated to
#> RPGs. Unfortunetly the masses don't seem to care and blow things out of
#> proportion.
#
#Agreed on the second point, but one the first point, sorry, but
#that's utter BS. A game can't kill anybody. If some unstable
#individual happens to play one, and then kills himself or others, its
#not the games fault.
#
#Please don't start that clap trap again. I had enough of it in the
#80's.

sounds like the heavy metal problems of yore
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 14
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:29:35 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 11:17:35 EDT, you write:

<< Agreed on the second point, but one the first point, sorry, but
that's utter BS. A game can't kill anybody. If some unstable
individual happens to play one, and then kills himself or others, its
not the games fault.

Please don't start that clap trap again. I had enough of it in the
80's.
>>

Please reread my post. I said ASSOCIATED, and never ment to imply that it was
the cause. The use of the word associated simply means the authorities and/or
media included the gaming aspect in their report.

I agree with you that a game can't kill someone, and those who did do not
need to be in the genepool anyway.

Since I opened my retail shop, I have had to deal with a large number of
people who tell me gaming (ok specifically AD&D) is evil and such, and that
it kills people. So I am well versed in the statistics as well as realism of
the incidents.

-Bandit
Message no. 15
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:30:37 +0000
On 22 Aug 97 at 10:20, Jaymz wrote:

> #Agreed on the second point, but one the first point, sorry, but
> #that's utter BS. A game can't kill anybody. If some unstable
> #individual happens to play one, and then kills himself or others, its
> #not the games fault.
> #
> #Please don't start that clap trap again. I had enough of it in the
> #80's.
>
> sounds like the heavy metal problems of yore

Yes, and TV and violent movies, ad nauseum. It's all crap.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department

----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:12:01 -0400
>Intreasting statistic. To date there have only been 286 deaths associated
to
>RPGs. Unfortunetly the masses don't seem to care and blow things out of
>proportion.

Whoa!
Where'd you get this statistic?!?!?

I was thinking more like 12?
I'm kinda shocked at this number ... where'd you get it?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I'm happier than a carp in a septic tank!"
Message no. 17
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:19:12 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 13:11:15 EDT, you write:

<< Whoa!
Where'd you get this statistic?!?!?

I was thinking more like 12?
I'm kinda shocked at this number ... where'd you get it?
>>

I got it from an article on the net. Someone did a research paper defending
RPGs. I'll see if I have a copy of it.

I thought the number was high myself.

-Bandit
Message no. 18
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 13:55:25 +0000
On 22 Aug 97 at 11:29, M. Sean Martinez wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-22 11:17:35 EDT, you write:
>
> << Agreed on the second point, but one the first point, sorry, but
> that's utter BS. A game can't kill anybody. If some unstable
> individual happens to play one, and then kills himself or others, its
> not the games fault.
>
> Please don't start that clap trap again. I had enough of it in the
> 80's.
> >>
>
> Please reread my post. I said ASSOCIATED, and never ment to imply that it was
> the cause. The use of the word associated simply means the authorities and/or
> media included the gaming aspect in their report.

Fair enough, but I don't even agree that they should even be
associating the games with deaths. I don't see how they are in anyway
relevant. It is unbelievable to me how such "facts" can get attached
to just about anything.

> I agree with you that a game can't kill someone, and those who did do not
> need to be in the genepool anyway.

Exactly.

> Since I opened my retail shop, I have had to deal with a large number of
> people who tell me gaming (ok specifically AD&D) is evil and such, and that
> it kills people. So I am well versed in the statistics as well as realism of
> the incidents.

Yea, I know what you mean. I've had trouble trying to even shop at a
gaming store. I can't imagine working in one.
Keep the faith.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
It's time's like this I wish I were a psycopath.
-Dilbert

----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 14:00:51 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 13:43:16 EDT, you write:

<< Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry.. >>

Was that the one with Tom Hanks in it?

Lets not forget the book, "The Dungeon Master", which was about a cop
research the disappearence of a gamer.

-Bandit
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:08:56 +0100
M. Sean Martinez said on 14:00/22 Aug 97...

> Was that the one with Tom Hanks in it?

That was Mazes & Monsters, and it sucked really bad IMnsHO. I taped it
because I thought it would be interesting (from the bit I'd read in the TV
guide) and when I watched it, it turned out to be about the Dangers of
roleplaying...

> Lets not forget the book, "The Dungeon Master", which was about a cop
> research the disappearence of a gamer.

And this mini-series whose name I forgot, about two guys who kill the
stepfather of one of them, and nearly kill his mother (the guy's, not the
stepfather's :) as well. Then there's a police investigation, and it turns
out he played D&D, and that's what the act gets blamed on. I distinctly
recall someone (the DA?) saying in court "This is to blame on the three
Ds: Dungeons and Dragons, and drugs."

This was supposedly based on RL events, even...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: David West <dwest@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:13:31 -0500
M. Sean Martinez wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-08-22 13:43:16 EDT, you write:
>
> << Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
> had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
> Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry.. >>
>

The movie was a made-for-tv movie called "Mazes and Monsters"

> Was that the one with Tom Hanks in it?
>

I believe it was...

> Lets not forget the book, "The Dungeon Master", which was about a cop
> research the disappearence of a gamer.
>

Don't forget Mr Egbert up in Michigan, or the case in Colorado, and now
the vampire groupies down in Florida. All of these have set back gaming.

--Lightfinger
Message no. 22
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 15:05:38 -0600
At 21:08 8/22/97 +0100, you wrote:
>That was Mazes & Monsters, and it sucked really bad IMnsHO. I taped it
>because I thought it would be interesting (from the bit I'd read in the TV
>guide) and when I watched it, it turned out to be about the Dangers of
>roleplaying...

It's a really bad movie, based on a really bad book..
The book is by Rona Jaffe, and it really showed that she had never actually
played a RPG before in her life..
They had some fairly nice painted minatures, though.

>> Lets not forget the book, "The Dungeon Master", which was about a cop
>> research the disappearence of a gamer.

Which was a mildly entertaining book, although the author admits he
embellished parts of it so it would sell better.

>And this mini-series whose name I forgot, about two guys who kill the
>stepfather of one of them, and nearly kill his mother (the guy's, not the
>stepfather's :) as well. Then there's a police investigation, and it turns
>out he played D&D, and that's what the act gets blamed on. I distinctly
>recall someone (the DA?) saying in court "This is to blame on the three
>Ds: Dungeons and Dragons, and drugs."

Cruel Doubt. There's a book of it, too. Anyone have a copy of it taped?
I haven't seen it for over 4 or 5 years, and would like to see it again..

>This was supposedly based on RL events, even...

'Based' on a true story.
*snicker*

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 23
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:56:41 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 11:10:34 EDT, you write:

> Intreasting statistic. To date there have only been 286 deaths associated
to
> RPGs. Unfortunetly the masses don't seem to care and blow things out of
> proportion.

And what with the advent of LARPs, I'd be willing to bet that quite a number
of them have been accidental, such as falls, over-exertion, etc. instead of
suicides. All in all, not a bad track record for 20+ years as a cross-section
of the community. Be interesting to see how many of those deaths were either
accident or drug-related...

> Roleplaying needs to become more mainstreamed. Right now, the gaming
> industry only accounts for less than 1% of total retail sales.

That's fine by me. There's such a thing as TOO much of a good thing. Witness
Magic:the Gathering. Decent game when it came out, spoiled 2 years later by
the influx of munchkins and Spamites with their "deck o' doom".....

Wolfstar
Message no. 24
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:59:34 -0400
> From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
> Date: Friday, August 22, 1997 6:56 PM

> In a message dated 97-08-22 11:10:34 EDT, you write:

<Snip>

> > Roleplaying needs to become more mainstreamed. Right now, the gaming
> > industry only accounts for less than 1% of total retail sales.

> That's fine by me. There's such a thing as TOO much of a good thing.
Witness
> Magic:the Gathering. Decent game when it came out, spoiled 2 years later
by
> the influx of munchkins and Spamites with their "deck o' doom".....

Actually, M:TG was spoiled by expansion sets coming out every three months
and thus allowing money to rule over intelligence. But, that's a different
topic. ;)

> Wolfstar
Message no. 25
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 22:14:28 EDT
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:08:43 -0400 "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 97-08-21 19:10:29 EDT, you write:
>
><< No, Ihavn't heard anything, but it should be real helpfull to the
>industry
> as all news and unwanted publicity is. >>
>
>Intreasting statistic. To date there have only been 286 deaths
>associated to
>RPGs. Unfortunetly the masses don't seem to care and blow things out
>of
>proportion.


NCTV and B.A.D.D. have asserted that 128 similar cases involve
role-playing games. In these 128, not even 25 contain names, dates and/or
places. Of those, one has no documented account, one came from a paper
from town over 200 miles from the event, and no coverage existed in the
town that it was supposed to have occurred. In the cases where source
material is given, the source is nearly invariably from an obscure
newspaper and based on statements from biased persons.

BTW, those 128 cases are from over 14 years.

That's info borrowed (though not quoted) from a piece by Paul Cardwell.
Here's the original document's URL, as weall as a couple of URLs for
other Net-based resources along this line:

Cardwell, Paul. “The Attacks on Role-Playing Games.”
http://www.10mb.com/252rpg/quellen/cardwell/attacks.html copyright 1994.
“Dungeons and Dragons (TM) And Other Fantasy Role Games.”
http://web.canlink.com/ocrt/d_a_d.htm No copyright listed.
Stackpole, Michael A. “The Pulling Report.”
http://www.rpg.net/252/quellen/stackpole/pulling_report.html copyright
1990.
And I'll add this little line to the argument: nobody can _force_ you to
do _anything_. There is _always_ a choice involved, and you always have
to make a decision. TV can't make you do it, music can't make you do it,
games, books, Satan himself can't make you do it. Even God won't make you
do something. There is always a choice. And I'll stop there before I go
too far off.

>Roleplaying needs to become more mainstreamed. Right now, the gaming
>industry
>only accounts for less than 1% of total retail sales.


The hobby becomes more 'mainstream' every day. Besides, if it ever got
truly 'mainstream', it would die. It'd get too commercialized.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
Warning: Home Page in Transit
Message no. 26
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:18:48 -0400
On Fri, 22 Aug 1997, Gurth wrote:

->M. Sean Martinez said on 14:00/22 Aug 97...

}} snip Tunnels and Trolls {{

->
->And this mini-series whose name I forgot, about two guys who kill the
->stepfather of one of them, and nearly kill his mother (the guy's, not the
->stepfather's :) as well. Then there's a police investigation, and it turns
->out he played D&D, and that's what the act gets blamed on. I distinctly
->recall someone (the DA?) saying in court "This is to blame on the three
->Ds: Dungeons and Dragons, and drugs."
->
->This was supposedly based on RL events, even...


That was Cruel Doubt. Or it could have been titled Cruel Joke. The
most amazing thing is that the makers didn't get sued BIG TIME by TSR.
In one scene a Sherriff opens the first edition Players Handbook (the
one where the thiefs are prying the jewel out of the idols eye) and
starts to read something out of that was basically a reenactment of
the murder that was commited using D&D terms. TSR has always had a
rule that in any published materiel of theirs the Characters could
only be good guys and an assasination by the players would never be
allowed into print.
Message no. 27
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 04:59:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 03:06:45 EDT, you write:

> >This was supposedly based on RL events, even...
>
> 'Based' on a true story.
> *snicker*

<Rant Mode>
Okay, old-timers! Those of you who remember BADD, raise your hands! <raises
hand>
Alright for those of you who don't, BADD stands for Bothered About Dungeons
& Dragons. It was founded by a woman whose sone decided to jump off a cliff
one day, because he thought he was his character(a mage) and he had cast a
feather fall spell - needless to say, it didn't work too well. She set out on
this crusade to prevent other children from being corrupted by this evil
influence and expose it as the tool of satan that it is! (Yes, that's sarcasm
dripping from my voice.) She managed to rile up quite a few people, and the
movement is still going - Our Vice President here in the US, Tipper
Gore(What? You expect Al Gore to be different from his running mate?), is in
full support of this woman and her crusade, and thinks that RPGs in general
are a corrupting influence on the youth of America.
Let's rewind a bit and cover a few salient points, shall we? First, the
woman's son was on three tabs of acid when he died, a fact that she never
once mentioned to anyone. Two, not even The Necronomicon, a book I'm not
overly fond of in any of it's forms, is evil, so how the hell is a game?
Three, someone PLEASE tell me how something that fosters creative thought,
promotes rational thinking and logical problem solving, AND improves reading
and mathematical skills as a side effect is a "Not conducive to positive
youth development"?!?!? (Direct quote from the Assistant Director of the
Department of Youth Services in my home town).
</Rant Mode>

Sorry, got on a role there. That was supposed to be, "Did you know that the
kid who killed himself and who's mother started BADD was on acid when he
died?" I just have a tendency to go ape on the subject. Personal experience.

Wolfstar
Message no. 28
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 07:37:00 -0400
At 04:59 AM 8/23/97 -0400, George Metz wrote these timeless words:
>In a message dated 97-08-23 03:06:45 EDT, you write:
>
>> >This was supposedly based on RL events, even...
>>
>> 'Based' on a true story.
>> *snicker*
>
><Rant Mode>
> Okay, old-timers! Those of you who remember BADD, raise your hands! <raises
>hand>
>
<Bull raises his furry paw>

[SNIP fun rant]

> Sorry, got on a role there. That was supposed to be, "Did you know that the
>kid who killed himself and who's mother started BADD was on acid when he
>died?" I just have a tendency to go ape on the subject. Personal experience.
>
Heh... I got into roleplaying games about 3 weeks before 20/20 aired it's
D&D/Suicide link (That should tell you how long I've been doing this...:))
and got a nice little talk from my mom about whether I knew the difference
between a game and reality...;]

Also... try going to a Christian College where Jerry Fallwell is teh
Chancellor and see what kind of reaction a gamer gets...:]

Actually, you'ld be surprised how much fun it was... I found some really
great gamers, and one of the best groups I ever played with were guys from
there... But they ere the exception rather than the rule...:(

And I have to admit, I did have a weak moment where I actually help
perpatrate the myth that Gamers are Satanists, but let me explain... (He
says hastily as torches are lit and Nooses appear out of nowhere...)

My Second year there, I had arranged to room with a friend. We also ended
up with a third (The basic dorms were set up for up to 4) who was a real
dork. Pure PK (Preachers Kid) with an anal neat freakiness like you
wouldn't believe. The boy lived his life as a schedule, kept everything in
his part of the room in perfect order, and saw everything in total black
and white.

Well, after getting into it the very first day, when he saw my Marvel
Superheroes and Star Wars RPGs (Those were the only 2 I had with me there
at the time...:)), he immediately gave me a 15 minute lectre on how RPG's
were "Satanic". I put up with him for 4 days, then decided to Get Back At
Him (tm).

I got the gaming group together, explained things, and then we set out to
scare the poor kid. We bought some Flourescent Orange Duct Tape and a
bunch of nasty smelling candles. John (My evil roommate) had a schedule.
He would go to the Library after dinner every night, and come back to the
dorm at 9. Exactly. it was sick...

So one nighht while he was at the library, we cleared out the middle of the
room, duct taped a Pentagram on the floor and got five of us to sita round
it at the points, with candles lit and sitting in front of us... We then
proceeded to start chanting some latin gibberish from Monty Python and the
Holy grail (You know, the monks taht hit themselves?) when he came into the
room.

He opened the door, took one look at us, and left. He didn;t come back
that night. The next day I come back from classes and his stuff is GONE.
My RA (Resident Assistant, in charge of teh hall) came up to me that night
and just laughed. He was like "So what did you do to the poor kid?" I
told him and we got a good laugh out of that (I picked my hall very
carefully. I knew Shawn from the year before, and he was a big Fantasy Lit
fan, and had done some gaming as well, so...:)).

I saw John once more that eyar, about 4 months later. We passed eachother
on the street, and he saw me, and crossed to the other side... <grin>

Mean? yeah...

Fun? Oh Yeah!

Good for the Gaming Industry? Well, I wasn;t thinking about that at the
time... We were having to much fun...:]

Bull-the-storytime-Ork-Decekr
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament
Message no. 29
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 18:24:50 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-22 17:20:06 EDT, fro@***.AB.CA writes:

> >That was Mazes & Monsters, and it sucked really bad IMnsHO. I taped it
> >because I thought it would be interesting (from the bit I'd read in the
TV
> >guide) and when I watched it, it turned out to be about the Dangers of
> >roleplaying...
>
> It's a really bad movie, based on a really bad book..
> The book is by Rona Jaffe, and it really showed that she had never
actually
> played a RPG before in her life..
> They had some fairly nice painted minatures, though.
>
I really hate to say this, but I once met the lady...she knew quite a bit
about RPG's surprisingly. But her experiences were from distal POV. AKA,
she had a friend who was really into it and her friendship broke up and
hence....

-K
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:55:12 +0100
George Metz said on 4:59/23 Aug 97...

> Let's rewind a bit and cover a few salient points, shall we? First, the
> woman's son was on three tabs of acid when he died, a fact that she never
> once mentioned to anyone.

Obviously, as to my knowledge there have been lots of cases where people
under influence from LSD thought they could fly even without playing an
RPG.

> Three, someone PLEASE tell me how something that fosters creative
> thought, promotes rational thinking and logical problem solving, AND
> improves reading and mathematical skills as a side effect is a "Not
> conducive to positive youth development"?!?!? (Direct quote from the
> Assistant Director of the Department of Youth Services in my home town).

I'd say it's probably because he's biased against RPGs in some way -- and
being biased is very bad for conducting research...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Looking over the edge...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 31
From: Kristling the Weird <kristlingweird@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:33:56 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> George Metz said on 4:59/23 Aug 97...
<SnIP..... YOUCH! stupid, rasafrazing, dumb digital scissors.......>
> Three, someone PLEASE tell me how something that fosters creative
> > thought, promotes rational thinking and logical problem solving, AND
> > improves reading and mathematical skills as a side effect is a "Not
> > conducive to positive youth development"?!?!? (Direct quote from the
> > Assistant Director of the Department of Youth Services in my home town).
>
> I'd say it's probably because he's biased against RPGs in some way -- and
> being biased is very bad for conducting research...
>
And there's the rub, eh? Any ione who bothers to see if RPGs are these
evil things is biased one way or the other, for or against.

<Sigh> It's humanity, I should be used to it by now.

Still, it's like the feaud between Protastants and Church of God people
I once wittnessed... it went on until some on metioned that if they took
the time to actually look at what the other had, they would see they had
more in common then not.
But just try to get an anti RPG zealot to play SR or earthdawn for a
bit :(.
--All this over some dice and some books....
Kristling "The Weird" Ravenwing
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/5482/
Dispratly seeking Shampoo.
kristlingweird@*********.com
Message no. 32
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 14:59:47 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 09:45:24 EDT, you write:

> Heh... I got into roleplaying games about 3 weeks before 20/20 aired it's
> D&D/Suicide link (That should tell you how long I've been doing this...:))
> and got a nice little talk from my mom about whether I knew the difference
> between a game and reality...;]

"We're going to have a real problem with this AD&D thing..." My mother when
I told her I didn't know if I believed in God. =)

> Also... try going to a Christian College where Jerry Fallwell is teh
> Chancellor and see what kind of reaction a gamer gets...:]

Went on a weekend trip with the director of Religious Education for our old
church to New Hampshire to roleplay with his Catholic College buddies, does
that count?

> Actually, you'ld be surprised how much fun it was... I found some really
> great gamers, and one of the best groups I ever played with were guys from
> there... But they ere the exception rather than the rule...:(

Good gamers are, unfortunately, usually an exception rather than a rule.

<Snip REALLY funny story>

Bull get's bonus points for originality there! =) See, I would've done
something worse, like set up a small, discrete-but-not-too-discrete altar in
the corner. Then again, I wouldn't have been going to a Christian college....
=)

> Mean? yeah...
>
> Fun? Oh Yeah!

Aren't the two synonymous? =)

> Good for the Gaming Industry? Well, I wasn;t thinking about that at the
> time... We were having to much fun...:]

Wasn't bad for it though. One thing I've learned in the past 10 years of
gaming, people like that kid are NEVER going to change their minds. They're
are too closed. That's the type of kid who'd either kill himself or found
Humanis if the Awakening ever occured. In a way, I feel sorry for him.

Wolfstar
Message no. 33
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@******.COM>
Subject: Re: the Game
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:08:21 +0100
Hmmm...

>><Rant Mode>
>> Okay, old-timers! Those of you who remember BADD, raise your hands!
><raises
>>hand>

<Raises hand>

Well, I would like to add a word or two to the stuff about BADD. I've
read a report on BADD made by Michael Stackpole, and:
a) AFAIK The kid was not on acid, and he SHOT himself with a loaded gun
his mom kept in an unlocked locker (pun intended :P )
b) He did have a lots of family problems
c) BADD is no longer active ( or rather it was discredited by Stackpole)

<The beginning of Bull's Story shown cloaked>

> So one nighht while he was at the library, we cleared out the middle
> of the room, duct taped a Pentagram on the floor and got five of us
> to sit around it at the points, with candles lit and sitting in
> front of us... We then proceeded to start chanting some latin
> gibberish from Monty Python and the Holy grail (You know, the
> monks taht hit themselves?) when he came into the room.

LOL
You mean:
"Pieus (sp) Jesus Dominae <THWAP> donaeis requiem <THWAP> <repeat ad
nauseum>"?

That means: Pray to Jesus God <WHACK> Give mercy <WHACK>
(Or something along these lines)

Not a very good thing for an average satanist to say... :P

- Mike (Leszek Karlik)
Message no. 34
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 19:23:28 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 09:13:34 EDT, you write:

> > Three, someone PLEASE tell me how something that fosters creative
> > thought, promotes rational thinking and logical problem solving, AND
> > improves reading and mathematical skills as a side effect is a "Not
> > conducive to positive youth development"?!?!? (Direct quote from the
> > Assistant Director of the Department of Youth Services in my home town).
>
> I'd say it's probably because he's biased against RPGs in some way -- and
> being biased is very bad for conducting research...

Well, that's actually the town's official position on RPGs, but yes, he's
biased. Ultraconservative born-again Christian(No offense, Canthros. Then
again, you aren't ultraconservative. =) )

Wolfstar
Message no. 35
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:14:30 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-23 01:45:58 EDT, you write:

<< BTW, those 128 cases are from over 14 years. >>

How the heck did I come up with 286? Memory is going bad, agian

Sorry for the confusion, thanks for the links!

-Bandit, grumbling about getting a mem upgrade
Message no. 36
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 01:26:29 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-24 03:53:21 EDT, you write:

<< Obviously, as to my knowledge there have been lots of cases where people
under influence from LSD thought they could fly even without playing an
RPG. >>

There is a guy I know that too one really big hit of LSD by accident and 6
months later he still thought he was a tall glass of OJ and was deathly
afraid of thirsty looking people.....

-Bandit
Message no. 37
From: "Hayes, Ann" <ahayes@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 10:27:50 -0700
><< Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
> had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
> Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry.. >>
>
>Was that the one with Tom Hanks in it?

greetings. what was the name of this movie...anyone know?

david
ahayes@***.net
Message no. 38
From: Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:54:52 -0400
At 10:27 AM 8/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>><< Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
>> had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
>> Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry.. >>
>>
>>Was that the one with Tom Hanks in it?
>
> greetings. what was the name of this movie...anyone know?

Was it Skullduggery?
Message no. 39
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Game?
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 16:31:35 -0400
At 10:27 AM 8/25/97 -0700, Hayes, Ann wrote these timeless words:
>><< Yea.. remember when that movie about some Tunnels and Trolls players
>> had one of their number go off the deep end when they started Live
>> Action playing..That one was a hard blow to the industry.. >>
>>
>>Was that the one with Tom Hanks in it?
>
> greetings. what was the name of this movie...anyone know?
>
Mazes and Monsters

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
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"CrapGame, you bitch!"
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Further Reading

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