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Message no. 1
From: rhoded01@******.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Ahzmandius)
Subject: The Good, the Bad, and the lame
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 08:50:19 -0600 (CST)
I simply offered a new tool for roleplaying. Not a new stat to keep track
of. Not a way for "gm's to screw players over with". A tool. It is used, by
those who wish to incorporate it, to add a new dimension to their games. I
offered a possible explainaion, including background and rationale. Just
because it didn't come from the GODS AT FASA is no reason to jettison the
idea. Play with it, see how it works before completely shitcanning the idea.
If you have a better concept for this idea, then tell me how YOU would do
it. I have been reading for the last 2 weeks the thread called "Problem
Player" and another called "Game Balance". You think that maybe there IS a
problem with the way the games are being played? Bad Karma does NOT equal no
fun. It means that characters need to decide what they do with more care and
create depth to the character's personality and motivations. Some players
would care, others wouldn't. Play with it and use it for added plot. APDS is
not a reqirement for most players and game masters. Panther assault cannons
may not be the most fun or creative solution to a problem. Yes, most
characters cam from an urban sprawl nightmare and are just trying to get
ahead, but why do they have to reflect the violence of the uncaring world
they came from. Play what you want, but don't slam on me for giving a new
idea a forum.

Ahzmandius
Message no. 2
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the lame
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Ahzmandius wrote:

> Just because it didn't come from the GODS AT FASA is no reason to
> jettison the idea.

Definitely. My campagin is *far* from what you would call "by
the books." But people can look at ideas and analyze them before
including a possibly disruptive, arbitrary, or limiting mechanism to
their games. That's why we have discussion: so people can talk about
ideas such as this and hammer out the pros and cons before altering their
campaigns to use them.

> If you have a better concept for this idea, then tell me how YOU would do
> it.

Mine is simple: I don't feel it *needs* to be done, and that
doing it would *detract* from my game rather than add to it.

> I have been reading for the last 2 weeks the thread called "Problem
> Player" and another called "Game Balance". You think that maybe there
IS a
> problem with the way the games are being played?

This I have to agree with, but I try to refrain from making
comments about such issues as they generally lie deeply ingrained with
*how* a GM runs his or her game, and issue which is likely to generate
hostility, flames, ill feelings, and wasted bandwidth. GM is an
experience. You get better at it over time. The problems you once had
will be solved through careful trial and error. I say, cool by me. I
will offer suggestions, but I'll never tell you *how* to run your game.

> Play what you want, but don't slam on me for giving a new idea a forum.

Neither I nor any of the posts I have read so far slam you
personally. I haven't gotten through all my mail yet, so I may be wrong
about this, but it's not personal. You suggested an idea (for which we
are appreciative, because new ideas always have potential to be good
ones). The disagreement here is over the *idea*, not the people
involved. Stick to the topic. If you refuted people's points
individually with logical, clear explanations, you'd sound a lot less
hostile and defensive and do much more to accurately convey the ideas you
post. Just a suggestion.

Marc
Message no. 3
From: RAY MACEY <r.macey@*******.qut.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Good, the Bad, and the lame
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:14:51 +1000 (EST)
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Ahzmandius wrote:

> I simply offered a new tool for roleplaying. Not a new stat to keep track
> of. Not a way for "gm's to screw players over with". A tool. It is used, by
> those who wish to incorporate it, to add a new dimension to their games.

[snip]

> Play what you want, but don't slam on me for giving a new
> idea a forum.
>
> Ahzmandius

You were slamming on people yourself. You came across as if you were
saying anyone that doesn't like your idea is an idiot that can't control
their players and has no idea about how things should be done.
Message no. 4
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: The Good, the Bad and the lame...
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 96 11:37:00 PDT
Azhmandius wrote:
>It is used, by those who wish to incorporate it, to add a new dimension
>to their games. I offered a possible explainaion, including background
>and rationale.

I think mostly what everyone thought you were trying to do was introduce
a morality theme into Shadowrun. I've gathered that many people who play
SR like the whole concept of good/evil being very blurred, where a
characters individual code can often be very contradictory, a symptom of
the harsh realities of the insane world. Most people play this at a
subdued, background level, it's importance is down to individual
character roleplaying. By introducing a game mechanic (IMHO, it *is* a
mechanic, despute what you say, it involves accruing/losing points in a
set manner according to player activities) to govern this, you
automatically push this theme to the forefront, that Karma is a central
issue to the game. It may add a different flavour to the game, which
isn't a bad thing, that's just personal taste, but it's just not SR.

However, this isn't the main issue. The whole idea of *any*
aspect of morality being dealt with by a game mechanic sets off warning
bells in most peoples heads. You didn't explain fully what you meant by
bad karma, so most people just presumed that it was some sort of AD$D
type alignment throwback. There are a lot of purists (I'm one) who
believe that issues of morality *cannot* be resolved by something as
strict as a game mechanic (I cannot speak for all game systems, however,
but I've yet to find one that does). By their nature, game mechanics
start to fail in nebulous grey areas, which morality is full of.

>If you have a better concept for this idea, then tell me how YOU would
>do it.

Issues of morality are generally resolved by GM & Player experience,
Meta Game Logic, and the old Cause & Effect syndrome, which work far
better than any linear bonus/penalty issue that seems suggested by your
rules. It makes Good & Evil a universal concept, not a personal one.

>Bad Karma does NOT equal no fun. It means that characters need
>to decide what they do with more care and create depth to the
>character's personality and motivations.

It sounds like a good idea, at least a new flavour. Come up with a
better detailed system and post it, you should receive a better
reception then.

Richard.
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Message no. 5
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: The Good, the Bad and the lame...
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:37:38 GMT
Richard M Conroy writes
>
> Issues of morality are generally resolved by GM & Player experience,
> Meta Game Logic, and the old Cause & Effect syndrome, which work far
> better than any linear bonus/penalty issue that seems suggested by your
> rules. It makes Good & Evil a universal concept, not a personal one.
>
Just use lonestar (or equivalent) properly, petty theft gets you on
the criminals list, murder depends on where you did it, the barrens
probably won't get you much manpower, downtown or worse on the trid
will get you the full homicide squad (hope you got a nice safehouse
:) ). The PC's won't gain morals as a result but they might be a bit
more careful simply becasue a load of cops on your tail is a problem
a runner can do without. There might not be money in revenge but
theres the law (and that juicy law enforcment contract) in catching
criminals.
I have not been as strict as i should be but have seen several guns
collected by sec forces, armour etc when someone got copped. Also a
rigger once gained a 50K repair bill for trying to fight off the
lonestars that wanted to give him a speeding ticket. He though he
break the limits 'just because he could!' pity the GM had the time
and the right sourcebook handy :)

Mark

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