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Message no. 1
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 04:19:26 +0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mightyflapjack [mailto:mightyflapjack@*****.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 04:06 AM
> To: 'Shadowrun Discussion'
> Subject: Re: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
and tactics)
>
> Low level grunt in 3rd edition with a firearms of 7?
>
> Even back in 3rd this is unlikely... Even for a weapon spec or a merc.

My players generally had Firearms of 7 by the third or fourth session, if that was their
primary skill. I consider that low level.

> More likely I would say low level grunt should have a 'pistol' skill around
> 4, maybe 5 for a grunt combat guy (like merc).

Okay... make it 5. Make it 8 successes out of 10 dice rolled. End result is still the
same. Dead character.

> So lets use the Street-Sam pre-generated as our attaker :
> In 4th that would be Agility (7) + Pistols (4) = 11 dice (4 successes?
> -rounded up)
> defender rolls reaction (4) = 1 success
>
> Pistol generally is a 5p + 3 net success = 8 physical.
>
> In 4th edition, even weaklings have a 9 box health meter, so the weakling is
> still alive and well... 8 damage on a 9 box meter after a pistol to the
> head, and still ticking...

Ewww... Not to start another 4th vs "other" war, but any game I *can't* kill my
players in... Bleurgh! If they have no fear of dying, it turns into the Matrix, with
players doing all kinds of crazy-stupid shit. Trust me - when players first discovered
'the power of Karma', our game went to Wachowski-land for a few weeks.

I guess I need to read that book to understand, though., Thanks for the clarification.

Snicker
Message no. 2
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jérémie_Bouillon)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 06:32:34 +0200
snicker@*********.net wrote:
> My players generally had Firearms of 7 by the third or fourth
> session, if that was their primary skill. I consider that low level.

Well, that's one point away from world-class/Nobel price/live legend.

o_O
Message no. 3
From: shadowrun@*****.net (Abschalten)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:37:11 -0400
> So lets use the Street-Sam pre-generated as our attaker :
> In 4th that would be Agility (7) + Pistols (4) = 11 dice (4 successes?
> -rounded up)
> defender rolls reaction (4) = 1 success
>
> Pistol generally is a 5p + 3 net success = 8 physical.
>
> In 4th edition, even weaklings have a 9 box health meter, so the weakling
> is
> still alive and well... 8 damage on a 9 box meter after a pistol to the
> head, and still ticking...

The problem here is you're taking a system of combat rules and damage that
are meant to be highly abstract and trying to cram them into a very detailed
and limited situation. The general idea behind the combat rules is that
there is alot going on all at once, with skill generally representing the
effectiveness and accuracy of shots, armor ratings representing the coverage
and efficiency of the protection, etc. There is alot of leeway in the
interpretation behind the numbers, and this is intentional, as it allows the
GM numerous storytelling possibilities.

Putting a gun in the back of somebody's head and pulling the trigger does
not call for any rolls. It calls for the GM to say "The guy is dead" since
you've put a slug in his brainpan. You are not ducking around a corner and
firing at a guy who is standing behind a waist-high pile of debris, firing
back at you, and standing in shadows (all the while hoping for a good hit.)

If you wanted to use the rules appropriately, even where they're not needed,
you could give the sam his entire pool, +3 for an effective, extended "Take
Aim" action, +1 for a non-moving target, +2 for any smartlinks, and deny the
target any attempt to use Reaction and Dodge to defend the shot. Ignore
armor ratings, and roll pure Body for the shot. Sure, it's quite possible
to live through a shot in the back of the skull, but when you REALLY have
the odds stacked in your favor, then events like a point-blank headshot are
realistically fatal. If the first shot doesn't do it, then half a clip
ought to (though I consider saying "Gee, I didn't do too well on that shot,
lemme take another" to be effectively metagaming, which I frown upon.)

That said, if somebody shoots somebody else in the head at point-blank
range, especially from behind, they're either dead or dying, regardless of
what the rolls say. At least in my games anyhow. :)
Message no. 4
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:16:20 -0500
At 11:37 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote:
>>So lets use the Street-Sam pre-generated as our attaker :
>>In 4th that would be Agility (7) + Pistols (4) = 11 dice (4 successes?
>>-rounded up)
>>defender rolls reaction (4) = 1 success
>>
>>Pistol generally is a 5p + 3 net success = 8 physical.
>>
>>In 4th edition, even weaklings have a 9 box health meter, so the weakling is
>>still alive and well... 8 damage on a 9 box meter after a pistol to the
>>head, and still ticking...
>
>The problem here is you're taking a system of combat rules and damage that
>are meant to be highly abstract and trying to cram them into a very
>detailed and limited situation. The general idea behind the combat rules
>is that there is alot going on all at once, with skill generally
>representing the effectiveness and accuracy of shots, armor ratings
>representing the coverage and efficiency of the protection, etc. There is
>alot of leeway in the interpretation behind the numbers, and this is
>intentional, as it allows the GM numerous storytelling possibilities.
>
>Putting a gun in the back of somebody's head and pulling the trigger does
>not call for any rolls. It calls for the GM to say "The guy is dead"
>since you've put a slug in his brainpan. You are not ducking around a
>corner and firing at a guy who is standing behind a waist-high pile of
>debris, firing back at you, and standing in shadows (all the while hoping
>for a good hit.)
>
>If you wanted to use the rules appropriately, even where they're not
>needed, you could give the sam his entire pool, +3 for an effective,
>extended "Take Aim" action, +1 for a non-moving target, +2 for any
>smartlinks, and deny the target any attempt to use Reaction and Dodge to
>defend the shot. Ignore armor ratings, and roll pure Body for the
>shot. Sure, it's quite possible to live through a shot in the back of the
>skull, but when you REALLY have the odds stacked in your favor, then
>events like a point-blank headshot are realistically fatal. If the first
>shot doesn't do it, then half a clip ought to (though I consider saying
>"Gee, I didn't do too well on that shot, lemme take another" to be
>effectively metagaming, which I frown upon.)
>
>That said, if somebody shoots somebody else in the head at point-blank
>range, especially from behind, they're either dead or dying, regardless of
>what the rolls say. At least in my games anyhow. :)

Ya got me interested enough to read up on it. Officially the first time
I've read through the combat section of 4th ;)

Same gun-to-the-head. This time, a "Weapons Specialist" was caught
flat-footed by an Ork Sprawl Ganger (both straight templates). The weapons
specialist attempts to duck the gun barrel and draw her pistol. Opposed
reaction tests. They each have 4 dice.. pretty iffy..
GM: "And he rolls... 3 successes! Wow.. um... I think you're going to be
shot here. Since surprise negates your ability to defend, this is just a
straight success test (SR4 P150). Let's see what he does... Um.. Firearms
of 3 plus agility of 4, We won't give him any bonuses for aiming, let's say
he didn't have time. 7 dice... and .. only 2 successes. Okay Ares
Remington Roomsweeper is 5P, narrow spread flechette ammo adds 2, plus 2
for successes, that's 9 physical. Roll your 3 body dice to resist damage..."
Player: "What about armour??"
GM: "He... had a gun... to your head. No armour there. Roll."
Player rolls 1 success.
GM: "Okay, that drops it down to 8 boxes of damage... you've got 10, yer
still alive, but just barely. Now for his second shot... it's
semi-automatic after all...."
Player: "##&*^%@!!!"

Yeah - even if I *had* to do it by the numbers... still squishy. Thanks
for making me look it up. I'm kinda diggin' 4th now ;)

Snicker
Message no. 5
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:27:16 -0500
At 11:32 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote:
>snicker@*********.net wrote:
>>My players generally had Firearms of 7 by the third or fourth
>>session, if that was their primary skill. I consider that low level.
>
>Well, that's one point away from world-class/Nobel price/live legend.
>
>o_O

I'm foncused, then. Did you not have the sort of players who had 6 in
their primary skill and focused on building it up? That was the norm in
our groups. Casters had 6 sorcery, Sams had 6 firearms, adepts had 6
unarmed combat... At 3 to 5 karma a weekend, at least one person would
have a 7 in something by the third or fourth session in a new campaign.

Snicker
Message no. 6
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:59:51 -0500
> I'm foncused, then. Did you not have the sort of players who had 6 in
> their primary skill and focused on building it up? That was the norm in
> our groups. Casters had 6 sorcery, Sams had 6 firearms, adepts had 6
> unarmed combat... At 3 to 5 karma a weekend, at least one person would
> have a 7 in something by the third or fourth session in a new campaign.
>
> Snicker
>
I do, but, I typically required a crazy amount of time for advancement of
skills too....added in a mechanic called "practice time" which was equal to
(skill*2)+(total karma cost)/2=months needed to practice to achieve the new
level of skill.

While it seems steep at the lower level skills, if you actually look at the
definitions of those skill levels, it makes every bit of sense that it would
take you years to improve upon a skill that's already "innate" to the point
where you're beyond that.....after all, if it's second nature to you, how do
you really improve upon it to become legendary or world class? In addition,
any time you did something with that skill, anyone investigating that had
skill/3 as a modifier to their TN to figure out who did it (if they knew of
you in more than just a reputation it was skill/2)

All in all if falls to you to decide what the scope of your game is, if you
allow 8+ skills, then so be it, that's your game, I don't, but that's
mine....
Message no. 7
From: jeremie.bouillon@****.fr (Jérémie_Bouillon)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:53:06 +0200
Snicker wrote:
> Same gun-to-the-head. This time, a "Weapons Specialist" was caught
> flat-footed by an Ork Sprawl Ganger (both straight templates). The
> weapons specialist attempts to duck the gun barrel and draw her pistol.
> Opposed reaction tests. They each have 4 dice.. pretty iffy..

That's something that was already said here, and I disagree. in SR3
mechanic, *at least* the one holding the gun has a TN2 vs TN4 for the
other guy. In SR4, I don't know quite yet... maybe increase the
threshold for the guy with the gun to it's head, or give more dices to
the other. At least.
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:01:50 +0200
According to snicker@*********.net, on 24-8-06 06:19 the word on the
street was...

> My players generally had Firearms of 7 by the third or fourth
> session, if that was their primary skill. I consider that low level.

I think that makes you an exception to the rule ... BTB, "average" is 3,
so the average security goon has Pistols 3.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 9
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:05:33 -0500
>> My players generally had Firearms of 7

That reminds me, are you referring to sr2 or sr4 in that? Because

sr3 didn't have any skillgroups that you could take, just a reduced
defaulting penalty in that category from one gun type to another... (i.e.
Someone that's skilled with pistols can probably pick up an SMG or assault
rifle and ruin your day)


If SR4, they can't have a firearms of 7, because (unless I read the section
wrong) you can't have the skillgroups beyond a 4 because it's considered a
broad enough knowledge area that "skilled" in everything is about as good as
you can hope to go and keep everything equal. (I may have mistaken the part
about a max skillgroup rating of 4 for initial characters only but I'm
fairly sure that it did say that it was just a regular cap on the groups....

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