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Message no. 1
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:20:41 +0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gurth [mailto:gurth@******.nl]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 06:28 PM
> To: 'Shadowrun Discussion'
> Subject: Re: Degenerate players and tactics
>
> He means that in SR, you can put a pistol to someone's head and pull the
> trigger, and it's not going to kill the target. So, if someone does that
> to you, you can say that your action is to draw your own weapon and
> shoot your attacker, instead of submitting to his will.

I don't know if that is all that bad - it seems kind of similar to action movies. We see
it all the time where the hero (or villain) has a gun to his head and he makes a sudden
move surprising his opponent, putting him in the position of advantage.

My question is - what are the players depending on to not die? How would you run the
scenario? Here's what I picture (3rd edition. Feel free to update to 4th), and it's not
so pretty. *I* sure wouldn't risk it...

Player is a standard low-level grunt: B:6(8), Q:4, R: 4(8) Init: 3d6, Armour = 5/3
(Jacket), Wired Reflexes 2, dermal plating 2
NPC is also a low-level grunt: B:4 Q:5, R:4(6), Init: 3d6, Armour = 4/2 (Long coat),
Smartlink, Boosted Reflexes, Firearms 7.
Player lost initiative and NPC got the drop on him putting his Ares Predator (9M) against
the player's head. "Reach for the sky!"
If the player chose to try to turn and draw instead, I'd make it an opposed reaction test
between the two. In this example, it might be pretty close, but the odds are in the
player's favor. But let's say the player fails....
GM: "...and you rolled... 2 successes. Sorry, the NPC got the drop again. You've
been shot in the head, point-blank range. Roll to resist.... (dice rolling) 9M damage
with 12 successes."
Player: "Okay, well, I stage the damage down with my armour..."
GM: "No you don't. That was a called shot. To the head. No armour there."
Player: "WHAT?! How come he didn't have any called-shot penalties?!"
GM: "He... had a gun..... to your head. It's kind of hard to miss. Not impossible,
mind you. He *could* have rolled all 1's, but with 14 dice (Firearms 7, +combat pool), he
didn't. He has 12 successess. Your target number is 9. Roll."
Player rolls 8 dice and gets 4 successess. Not bad. Not good enough, but not bad...
GM: "Okay, so 12 minus 4 is 8... stages the damage up to Deadly +2... Okay, well, the
good news is, you don't have to worry about making the payment on your lifestyle this
month. The bad news is, even DocWagon(tm) can't help you now. Your body bag is going to
include a lot of sponges."

Did I miss anything?

Snicker
Message no. 2
From: leisuree@*****.com (Edward D Leisure III)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 23:35:01 -0400
> GM: "Okay, so 12 minus 4 is 8... stages the damage up to Deadly +2... Okay,
well, the good news is, you don't have to worry about making the payment on your lifestyle
this month. The bad news is, even DocWagon(tm) can't help you now. Your body bag is
going to include a lot of sponges."
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> Snicker
>
>
Exactly. It's the GMs job to make the game believable and the rules
totally support it.
Message no. 3
From: mightyflapjack@*****.com (Mightyflapjack)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:06:27 -0400
Low level grunt in 3rd edition with a firearms of 7?

Even back in 3rd this is unlikely... Even for a weapon spec or a merc.

More likely I would say low level grunt should have a 'pistol' skill around
4, maybe 5 for a grunt combat guy (like merc).

So lets use the Street-Sam pre-generated as our attaker :
In 4th that would be Agility (7) + Pistols (4) = 11 dice (4 successes?
-rounded up)
defender rolls reaction (4) = 1 success

Pistol generally is a 5p + 3 net success = 8 physical.

In 4th edition, even weaklings have a 9 box health meter, so the weakling is
still alive and well... 8 damage on a 9 box meter after a pistol to the
head, and still ticking...


On 8/23/06, Edward D Leisure III <leisuree@*****.com> wrote:
>
>
> > GM: "Okay, so 12 minus 4 is 8... stages the damage up to Deadly +2...
> Okay, well, the good news is, you don't have to worry about making the
> payment on your lifestyle this month. The bad news is, even DocWagon(tm)
> can't help you now. Your body bag is going to include a lot of sponges."
> >
> > Did I miss anything?
> >
> > Snicker
> >
> >
> Exactly. It's the GMs job to make the game believable and the rules
> totally support it.
>



--
Feel Free to Encrypt your replies to me, my public PGP:
http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=index&search=paldoreq%40yahoo.com
Message no. 4
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 05:27:33 +0000
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 12:06:27AM -0400, Mightyflapjack wrote:
> Low level grunt in 3rd edition with a firearms of 7?
>
> Even back in 3rd this is unlikely... Even for a weapon spec or a merc.
>
> More likely I would say low level grunt should have a 'pistol' skill around
> 4, maybe 5 for a grunt combat guy (like merc).
>
> So lets use the Street-Sam pre-generated as our attaker :
> In 4th that would be Agility (7) + Pistols (4) = 11 dice (4 successes?
> -rounded up)
> defender rolls reaction (4) = 1 success
>
> Pistol generally is a 5p + 3 net success = 8 physical.
>
> In 4th edition, even weaklings have a 9 box health meter, so the weakling is
> still alive and well... 8 damage on a 9 box meter after a pistol to the
> head, and still ticking...
>

No.

I think we can all agree that having a gun to one's head counts as a +4 called shot, in
which case it automatically adds another 4 points of damage. Called shots are vicious
(and far more useful, the main downside being that you're more likely to miss entirely) in
4th edition. The character in question is likely dead.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 5
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:47:55 -0500
> In 4th edition, even weaklings have a 9 box health meter, so the weakling is
> still alive and well... 8 damage on a 9 box meter after a pistol to the
> head, and still ticking...

You forgot the +4DV for the headshot......he's dead.....oh, and the common
sense.....how often does one hear of someone shot, point blank range, with a
medium/large caliber pistol and the person shot survive? (I don't have
statistics in front of me, but I would hazard to guess that the answer is
very, VERY few)
Message no. 6
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:51:24 -0500
> My players generally had Firearms of 7 by the third or fourth session, if that
> was their primary skill. I consider that low level.
>
See, I think skill levels depend a lot on individual GM's, I stick to the
logic that is presented in the sr3 book on skill level definitions (pgs
98/99) in that 8+ is world class. There are a lot of things that come with
being world class, first and foremost, your skill is well known enough that
most anyone familiar with the field surrounding the skill in question is
likely to be able to ID something as potentially being done by
you......which is a very dangerous fingerprint for a shadowrunner if their
livelihood is coming from the fact that they're unknown to most people.
Message no. 7
From: pasquires@*****.com (Paul Squires)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:33:31 +0100
On 8/24/06, Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> I think that makes you an exception to the rule ... BTB, "average" is 3,
> so the average security goon has Pistols 3.

That's clearly not right - average has to be done on a global scale.
You could just as easily say the "average" shadowrunner, "average"
olympic athlete, "average" world-class marksman etc...

I'd reckon if someone actually uses a pistol on a regular basis you'd
be looking at a slightly higher score, but this is one of the problem
of having descriptions attached to the stat values in that way.


--
Paul Squires
http://pasquires.net | OpenPGP Key ID: 0x423003E0
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:37:53 +0200
According to Paul Squires, on 24-8-06 11:33 the word on the street was...

> That's clearly not right - average has to be done on a global scale.
> You could just as easily say the "average" shadowrunner,
"average"
> olympic athlete, "average" world-class marksman etc...

I feel it works pretty well: if someone has average ability in
something, they have rating 3.

> I'd reckon if someone actually uses a pistol on a regular basis you'd
> be looking at a slightly higher score

Why would it be higher? That would mean that someone who doesn't use a
pistol regularly, or even never, also has a skill rating in it -- rather
than no skill at all. Isn't it easier to say that someone who regularly
uses a pistol on average has a skill rating of 3?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: caseless@*****.com (Stephen Allee)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 04:26:47 -0600
I had always believed the skill points system to based on subjective
comparison with other people who use the skill, not the world as a whole. So
a skill of 3 in Pistols would be average for someone who carries and
practices regularly, but not spectacularly. IIRC the skill level comparison
chart from SR3 (Sorry, I am half a globe away from my books), it gave a
breakdown by skill points, and the active skill in question was actually
Pistols. It ranged from a skill of 1 being someone had shown you how to fire
a picture, up to two, where you were basically saying the steps to fire it
under your breath so you don't miss one, to three where you were actualy
aiming at your target and practicing trigger and breathing control, etc. on
up to 8+ which was something like "You are the pistol" or something similar.
I can see how someone who carries regularly (police, criminal, security
guard) could have a skill of three. Giving a skill of 5 to an NPC without
factoring in how much of their life would have to be devoted to combat
handgunning might be pushing things just a skosh, though.
Message no. 10
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 06:54:10 -0700 (PDT)
> Did I miss anything?

You can cover your proverbial backside a little more thoroughly by
saying the attacker did suffer Called Shot penalties. However, the
attacker in this case has surprise. Thus, the defender can take no
declared actions. Nothing but a Damage Resistance test. I'd rule
then, that they are a Stationary Target (TN reduction).

Called Shot, TN +4. Smartlink 2, Called Shot penalty reduced to +2.
Short Range, and under the circumstances, probably no Visibility
mods. Depending on how many seconds the defender dithers about their
course of action, you may also give the attacker Aim actions. Even
without, they face a TN of 5. Heavy Pistol, 9M. Called Shot, 9S.
Say average pistols skill of 4, and combat pool. 8 dice. TN 5.
Probably 2 successes. Defender rolls their Body. Even fairly
chromed characters are looking at rolling only 9 or 10 dice. Against
a TN of 9. If they are lucky, they get a success. Blammo, Serious
wound... and the attacker is no fool... so they pull the trigger on
their semi-automatic weapon a second time.

Good night sweet prince. Back to back Serious wounds kills most
everyone.

======Korishinzo
--Nobody ever promised that Shadowrun would be a Hollywood action
flick. SR 1 and 2 both warned players explicitly that combat was
dangerous. Make it so.

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 11
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:35:53 -0600
On 8/23/06, Derek Hyde <derek@***************.com> wrote:
> how often does one hear of someone shot, point blank range, with a
> medium/large caliber pistol and the person shot survive? (I don't have
> statistics in front of me, but I would hazard to guess that the answer is
> very, VERY few)

More importantly, how many survive *and* recover completely.

--
-Graht
Message no. 12
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:55:59 -0500
> More importantly, how many survive *and* recover completely.
>
> --
> -Graht
>
>

Ya know.....I think I'd have to throw an unresearched guess of "maybe like
0.0002%" at that....though I'm sure it's not accurate ;)
Message no. 13
From: wilson.reis@*****.com (Wilson Reis)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:54:10 -0300
On 8/24/06, Derek Hyde <derek@***************.com> wrote:
>
> > More importantly, how many survive *and* recover completely.
> >
> > --
> > -Graht
> >
> >
>
> Ya know.....I think I'd have to throw an unresearched guess of "maybe like
> 0.0002%" at that....though I'm sure it's not accurate ;)
>
>

I happen to know a lady (she´s something like 75 yrs old, IIRC) that
was shot by her husbabd 6 times in the arms/torso area and then, after
falling, the guy actually took the time to reload (it was a 6 rounds
.38) and then shoot her in the head.
That done, he shot himself, once, in the head. He´s dead, she´s not.

She was married to an airforce pilot and, as he was always out,
cheated him every now and then. That´s what he did when he found out,
went home early, rang the bell and discharged the drum on her as soon
as she opened the door. (That means, no take aim actions)

Being from the military, i would say he had at least rank 3 in pistols.
BTW, what saved her life was the fact that there were some workers
painting the building across the street who saw the whole scene and
called an ambulance.

Besides that, what saved her from dying from internal bleeding before
getting to the hospital was that half the shots actually hit her arms,
since she rose them in the gun´s direction in a sort of subconscious
self defense reflex.

(That happened around 1950´s , i think. She is still alive and laughes
her ass out everytime someone asks her about it. )

Will
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: The Gun to the Head scenario (was Re: Degenerate players and
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 11:18:59 +0200
According to Wilson Reis, on 24-8-06 21:54 the word on the street was...

> She was married to an airforce pilot and, as he was always out,
> cheated him every now and then. Thatīs what he did when he found out,
> went home early, rang the bell and discharged the drum on her as soon
> as she opened the door. (That means, no take aim actions)
>
> Being from the military, i would say he had at least rank 3 in pistols.

If he was a pilot, then I wouldn't assume Pistols 3. Pilots, even in the
1950s, already go through a lot of training, and firearms handling isn't
too high up on the list -- after all, it's not a skill they will be
expecting to use a lot :)

That, and SR models gunfights poorly in that a lot more shots hit than
realistically should :) The vast majority of shots fired IRL misses,
even from ranges as close as what you described -- but if you tell
people this, they won't believe you and say that _they_ certainly
wouldn't miss from two meters away ...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Executives can use it without reading manuals, which is sort
of our test of ease-of-use." --Steve Jobs
-> Former NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UB+ P(+) L++ E W++(--) N o? K w-- O
M+ PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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