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From:	Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject:	The Healing Process
Date:	Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:38:53 -0600

Message no. 1 In my campaign, one of the characters found himself on the wrong end of a
gun and wound up taking D physical damage.

When rolling to determine how long the character is going to be laid up in
the hospital, the player blows all the rolls on the Healing Table on page
113 of the main book. Because he blew the roll for D, he's in the hospital
for 30 days. Now, if I read the rules right, that will bring his physical
wound level down to S, and we roll again. Blowing that roll, he's out for
another 20 days. After 20 days, he's down to M. He blows the roll again,
and is still healing for 10 more days, end of which time, he's down to L.
Getting two successes on this final roll means he's better in one additional
day instead of two days. So the time this character is going to be wounded
is sixty-one days.

My questions -
When can this character check himself out of the hospital?
This character has suffered a D wound and is unconscious. When does he
regain consciousness?
The character is a magician and knows the Heal spell. When can he cast it?
How long will the character be in intensive care?

Regarding Deadly Wounds-
What is supposed to happen once a character fills up 10 boxes on the
physical condition monitor, no more, no less. Does the character just fall
unconscious and that's that (as on page 111), or does the character start
taking an additional box of damage every 10 minutes (as implied in the
"Deadly Wounds and First Aid" section on page 115)? [That second section
says that someone with a Deadly wound must have the wound stabilized by
using a Biotech test - if there are any successes on the test, the character
stops taking an additional box of damage every 10 minutes. Thus, someone
taking a Deadly physical wound and not overflowing the condition monitor may
still die right off.]

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have
schizophrenia."
-Dr. Thomas Szasz

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:19:22 +0100

Message no. 2 Faux Pas said on 13:38/17 Nov 96...

> In my campaign, one of the characters found himself on the wrong end of a
> gun and wound up taking D physical damage.
>
[snip 61 days in hospital]
>
> My questions -
> When can this character check himself out of the hospital?

I'd allow this any time after one wound level is healed. Then roll again,
using the appropriate modifiers for the new situation (+2 for Not In
Hospital/Clinic for example).

> This character has suffered a D wound and is unconscious. When does he
> regain consciousness?

Somewhere during the month in hospital. During the first few days or so
(1D6-1 perhaps?) would be likely, I guess.

> The character is a magician and knows the Heal spell. When can he cast it?

When he's conscious.

> How long will the character be in intensive care?

For as long as he has a Deadly wound. With the failed rolls, that would be
30 days, and he'd get the -2 TN for the first healing roll.

> Regarding Deadly Wounds-
> What is supposed to happen once a character fills up 10 boxes on the
> physical condition monitor, no more, no less. Does the character just fall
> unconscious and that's that (as on page 111), or does the character start
> taking an additional box of damage every 10 minutes (as implied in the
> "Deadly Wounds and First Aid" section on page 115)?

The last one, I think: the character falls unconscious and takes one extra
box of damage every 10 minutes (or 1D6 minutes in my game, Rule of Six
applies). This goes on until he dies from overflow damage.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
See? No hands!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 07:26:54 -0700

Message no. 3 Gurth wrote:
|
|> This character has suffered a D wound and is unconscious. When does he
|> regain consciousness?
|
|Somewhere during the month in hospital. During the first few days or so
|(1D6-1 perhaps?) would be likely, I guess.

I'd say he regains consciousness after one box has been
healed. In the case of the example I would say 7-8 days
(30 days to go from Deadly to Serious, which is healing 4
boxes. 30/4 = 7.5 ).

|> The character is a magician and knows the Heal spell. When can he cast it?
|
|When he's conscious.

And don't forget that the Damage Modifier applies to his
test to cast the Heal spell, but not the Drain Resistance
test (hey, if I missed this then someone else might have
too :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:43:47 +0000

Message no. 4 > |> The character is a magician and knows the Heal spell. When can he cast it?
> |
> |When he's conscious.
But whether teh Doctors allowed taht is another matter. While in their
care you are subject to their rules and magical healing would only be
approved if done by a registered medical mage, see Burning Bright for an
example of this. Even if the patient is a registered mage I would doubt
he'd still be allowed due to the strain of casting the spell.

> And don't forget that the Damage Modifier applies to his
> test to cast the Heal spell, but not the Drain Resistance
> test (hey, if I missed this then someone else might have
> too :)
I never realised that till someone brought it up a few weeks or so ago,
but I hate that ruling. It effectively allows mages to cast low drain
spells with no more ill effect to them if they are fancy free or near
death -the onlky thing which changes is the chance to succeed, which isn't
particularly hard even with a +3 TN when the target is a non-magician.

Sorry, just me grumbling :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

From:	Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:43:32 -0500

Message no. 5 On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> I'd say he regains consciousness after one box has been
> healed. In the case of the example I would say 7-8 days
> (30 days to go from Deadly to Serious, which is healing 4
> boxes. 30/4 = 7.5 ).

SRII p.112, under "Healing Stun Damage" -

"A character who has been knocked unconscious by Deadly Stun will not
wake up until his or her Stun has been reduced to Serious."

As far as being unconscious from Physical wounds... GM call.

Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
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From:	The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:06:39 +1100

Message no. 6 > > And don't forget that the Damage Modifier applies to his
> > test to cast the Heal spell, but not the Drain Resistance
> > test (hey, if I missed this then someone else might have
> > too :)
> I never realised that till someone brought it up a few weeks or so ago,
> but I hate that ruling. It effectively allows mages to cast low drain
> spells with no more ill effect to them if they are fancy free or near
> death -the onlky thing which changes is the chance to succeed, which isn't
> particularly hard even with a +3 TN when the target is a non-magician.

Well, yes, but the drain doesn't reflect how ill you are (at least IMHO),
it just reflects the strain of channelling X much energy...

Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just silly.
My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain from
and dropping most opponents instantly. To make things more in line with
the way we feel the world was meant to be (and make things like Power Foci
actually worth the Karma), we've made all spells that adversely affect
someone else base of Force drain rather than Force/2 drain. This includes
combat spells (except sterilise, which is ridiculous at drain code D
anyway), damaging manipulations, and things like Flare.

Actually, we (the GM, me, and a couple of other players) wanted to make
ALL spells Force drain base, but the other players of mage characters
whinged so much we settled for just spells that affect others adversely.

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:05:45 -0700

Message no. 7 |On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
|
[snip: when does a PC regain consciousness from a deadly physical wound]
|
|> I'd say he regains consciousness after one box has been
|> healed. In the case of the example I would say 7-8 days
|> (30 days to go from Deadly to Serious, which is healing 4
|> boxes. 30/4 = 7.5 ).

I just looked through the rules and... nowhere could I find
anything that said that a character falls unconscious when
he takes Deadly Physical damage. The only reference to
unconsciousness is when a character takes Deadly Stun
damage. Can anyone find out whether or not the rules state
if a character loses consciousness from deadly physical
damage?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Asher Rosenberg <asrosenberg@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 22:05:26 +0000

Message no. 8 On 18 Nov 96 at 20:05, David Buehrer wrote:

> I just looked through the rules and... nowhere could I find
> anything that said that a character falls unconscious when
> he takes Deadly Physical damage. The only reference to
> unconsciousness is when a character takes Deadly Stun
> damage. Can anyone find out whether or not the rules state
> if a character loses consciousness from deadly physical
> damage?

It's on the condition monitor.
(There's a copy on Page 111 of the sourcebook)
In the box where Deadly Stun damage woudl be marked, the word "Unc." is
written. (Short, I'm sure, for unconcious)
In the box for Deadly Physical Damage, "Unc. maybe Dead" is written.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:51:58 +0100

Message no. 9 David Buehrer said on 20:05/18 Nov 96...

> I just looked through the rules and... nowhere could I find
> anything that said that a character falls unconscious when
> he takes Deadly Physical damage. The only reference to
> unconsciousness is when a character takes Deadly Stun
> damage. Can anyone find out whether or not the rules state
> if a character loses consciousness from deadly physical
> damage?

Well... look at the condition monitor, that says "Unc. maybe dead" for a
Deadly physical wound. You're right in that it nowhere explicitly states
in the rules (where I looked, anyway) that you go unconscious at 10+ boxes
of physical damage.

<HOUSE RULE>

So, you could just make it a GM's call and let some people stay conscious
while others go KO. If you want to roll for it, maybe a Body test against
a TN equal to the total boxes of damage suffered (no wound modifiers, else
virtually nobody will stay awake). Or roll 1D6 over (damage - Body) to
stay conscious, perhaps.

</HOUSE RULE>

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's when it all gets blown away.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
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From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 13:43:41 +0000

Message no. 10 On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> > > And don't forget that the Damage Modifier applies to his
> > > test to cast the Heal spell, but not the Drain Resistance
> > > test (hey, if I missed this then someone else might have
> > > too :)
> > I never realised that till someone brought it up a few weeks or so ago,
> > but I hate that ruling. It effectively allows mages to cast low drain
> > spells with no more ill effect to them if they are fancy free or near
> > death -the onlky thing which changes is the chance to succeed, which isn't
> > particularly hard even with a +3 TN when the target is a non-magician.
>
> Well, yes, but the drain doesn't reflect how ill you are (at least IMHO),
> it just reflects the strain of channelling X much energy...
That wasn't my point (sorry if that was teh impression). My point was that
how damaged you are doesn't affect how well you can _resist_ drain.
I guess it follows on from the rule that Damage resistance tests don't
receive wound modifiers. But I see Drain Resistance as something totally
different, the magician is steeling his will to resist the harmful effects
of teh astral energies running through his aura. If teh mage is so ill or
wounded that he can't even think straight I'd imagine he'd have a pretty
tough time steeling his will.

> Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just silly.
> My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain from
> and dropping most opponents instantly.
Which is really what I was getting at. If your mage had to resist drain
from the mana dart whilst suffering a moderate wound i.e. +2TN then he is
more likely to take the Light drain, which in turn gives him another +1TN
meaning the next time he casts it....
Thsi allows your mage to still cast Manadarts as freely as he does now,
but only until he gets injured!

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

From:	Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:16:33 -0500

Message no. 11 The Digital Mage wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

<Snip>

> > Well, yes, but the drain doesn't reflect how ill you are (at least IMHO),
> > it just reflects the strain of channelling X much energy...

> That wasn't my point (sorry if that was teh impression). My point was that
> how damaged you are doesn't affect how well you can _resist_ drain.
> I guess it follows on from the rule that Damage resistance tests don't
> receive wound modifiers. But I see Drain Resistance as something totally
> different, the magician is steeling his will to resist the harmful effects
> of teh astral energies running through his aura. If teh mage is so ill or
> wounded that he can't even think straight I'd imagine he'd have a pretty
> tough time steeling his will.

I believe to be fair to the mages, FASA pretty much is saying that, like
resisting physical damage via your body attribute, resisting drain isn't
something you have to try to do. It's just something your will does.
Just like your body resists damage automatically, your will resists
drain automatically. Being wounded shouldn't affect this. I actually
agree with FASA's ruling on this one.

> > Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just silly.
> > My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain from
> > and dropping most opponents instantly.

Um, do you have a rating 6 power focus to help you? Were you using
vision modifiers to hit the target? How about movement modifiers? My
guess is that your GM wasn't applying all of the appropriate modifiers
and that you had some outside assistance in resisting drain (foci,
etc.) Drain isn't all that easy to resist according to the rules if you
take everything into account. If you use a base target number equal to
the opponent's body or will (as appropriate) without any mods and have a
rating 6 power foci to help you, of course you will drop enemies like
flies without breaking a sweat.

If you do it correctly, however, I am sure you will find that the drain
codes in their current state are reasonable.

> Which is really what I was getting at. If your mage had to resist drain
> from the mana dart whilst suffering a moderate wound i.e. +2TN then he is
> more likely to take the Light drain, which in turn gives him another +1TN
> meaning the next time he casts it....
> Thsi allows your mage to still cast Manadarts as freely as he does now,
> but only until he gets injured!

See above. Wounds shouldn't effect drain resistance.

> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
> "Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
> Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

From:	Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:02:13 -0600

Message no. 12 At 08:05 PM 11/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I just looked through the rules and... nowhere could I find
>anything that said that a character falls unconscious when
>he takes Deadly Physical damage.

It's in the diagram for the Condition Monitor in the healing/damage section.
The last box in the physical track reads "Unc. Maybe Dead" Unc.=unconscious.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have
schizophrenia."
-Dr. Thomas Szasz

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:09:09 -0700

Message no. 13 Faux Pas wrote:
|
|At 08:05 PM 11/18/96 -0700, you wrote:
|>I just looked through the rules and... nowhere could I find
|>anything that said that a character falls unconscious when
|>he takes Deadly Physical damage.
|
|It's in the diagram for the Condition Monitor in the healing/damage section.
|The last box in the physical track reads "Unc. Maybe Dead" Unc.=unconscious.

No wonder I couldn't find it. I haven't made a character
for SR in over 5 years :( (it sucks being a GM ;)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:23:49 -0700

Message no. 14 Gurth wrote:
|
|David Buehrer said on 20:05/18 Nov 96...
|
[snip: question about location of Unc. and answer <grumble>]
|
|<HOUSE RULE>
|
|So, you could just make it a GM's call and let some people stay conscious
|while others go KO. If you want to roll for it, maybe a Body test against
|a TN equal to the total boxes of damage suffered (no wound modifiers, else
|virtually nobody will stay awake). Or roll 1D6 over (damage - Body) to
|stay conscious, perhaps.
|
|</HOUSE RULE>

<house rule>

If a character takes 10 or more boxes of Physical damage
they must make a Body test vs a TN equal to the amount
overflow +1 to stay conscious (no condition modifiers, no
pool dice).

If a Troll with a Body of 8 takes a total of 13 boxes of
physical damage he has to make a Body test vs a TN of 4
(3+1) to stay conscious. If he was then hit with a serious
wound his total would rise to 16 and he would have to make
a Body(7) test to stay conscious. If is then hit with a
serious wound... well he's dead.

</house rule>

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:11:18 +0000

Message no. 15 On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Justin Pinnow wrote:

> Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:16:33 -0500

> > receive wound modifiers. But I see Drain Resistance as something totally
> > different, the magician is steeling his will to resist the harmful effects
> > of teh astral energies running through his aura. If teh mage is so ill or
> > wounded that he can't even think straight I'd imagine he'd have a pretty
> > tough time steeling his will.
>
> I believe to be fair to the mages, FASA pretty much is saying that, like
> resisting physical damage via your body attribute, resisting drain isn't
> something you have to try to do. It's just something your will does.
> Just like your body resists damage automatically, your will resists
> drain automatically. Being wounded shouldn't affect this. I actually
> agree with FASA's ruling on this one.

I guess this is what it all comes down to. I see resisting drain as a
conscious effort, you and FASA don't, I think we can agree to disagree on
this one.

> Um, do you have a rating 6 power focus to help you? Were you using
> vision modifiers to hit the target? How about movement modifiers? My
> guess is that your GM wasn't applying all of the appropriate modifiers
That would all effect how effectively you cast the spell, not how well you
resist drain.

> etc.) Drain isn't all that easy to resist according to the rules if you
> take everything into account.
The example of a Manadart 8 would be horrendously easy to resist, drain is
4L, and if it were a stun dart 3L. In teh first case you can expect to
resist drain with only 4 dice, in the latter case only 3 dice (using
expected probabilities). Most mages have willpoer of 5 or greater. This
would thus allow them to use all their magic pool (assuming tehy aren't
reserving any for spell defence -quite common if teh mage ducks out of LOS
after casting).

Now assuming teh mage has a magic pool of 6, and is casting that Force 8
spell. Thats 14 dice! ADmittedly this is only base damage of Light for a
dart, but some magicians could learn a restricted target spell etc, use
foci, fetishes etc to stage that up to a moderate easy: a +2Tn is a lot
for opponents to have!

Sorry for being so long winded :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"Life is a choice, Death....an obligation."-Me
Shadowrun WWW site at http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun

From:	Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:39:22 -0500

Message no. 16 The Digital Mage wrote:
>
> On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Justin Pinnow wrote:
>
> > Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:16:33 -0500
>

> I guess this is what it all comes down to. I see resisting drain as a
> conscious effort, you and FASA don't, I think we can agree to disagree on
> this one.

Actually, you might want to consider that the conscious part of drain
resistance comes in with Magic Pool. Your will will automatically fight
off as much drain as it can, but you can try harder by allotting more
Magic Pool dice to help resist drain. Thus, you are using skill to
augment reflex. Better? :)

> > Um, do you have a rating 6 power focus to help you? Were you using
> > vision modifiers to hit the target? How about movement modifiers? My
> > guess is that your GM wasn't applying all of the appropriate modifiers

> That would all effect how effectively you cast the spell, not how well you
> resist drain.

They aren't mutually exclusive, however. If you ended up with a TN of
14 to hit with the spell as compared to a 4, you would probably allot
more of your magic pool and/or foci dice to the force of the spell.
This would leave you with fewer available dice to resist drain. Thus,
higher TN's can affect your ability to resist drain (albeit indirectly).

> > etc.) Drain isn't all that easy to resist according to the rules if you
> > take everything into account.

> The example of a Manadart 8 would be horrendously easy to resist, drain is
> 4L, and if it were a stun dart 3L. In teh first case you can expect to
> resist drain with only 4 dice, in the latter case only 3 dice (using
> expected probabilities). Most mages have willpoer of 5 or greater. This
> would thus allow them to use all their magic pool (assuming tehy aren't
> reserving any for spell defence -quite common if teh mage ducks out of LOS
> after casting).

> Now assuming teh mage has a magic pool of 6, and is casting that Force 8
> spell. Thats 14 dice! ADmittedly this is only base damage of Light for a
> dart, but some magicians could learn a restricted target spell etc, use
> foci, fetishes etc to stage that up to a moderate easy: a +2Tn is a lot
> for opponents to have!

Correct. It's a trade off. You have a low drain code, but you also
have a low damage code. It will require a greater number of successes
to stage up the damage to anything worth much. If you were to have used
Hellblast as an example, you would have had an absurd drain code with an
equally absurd damage code. ;)

Thus, I don't think that (as a general rule) drain is too easy to
resist.

> Sorry for being so long winded :)

s'okay. I forgive you. This time. ;)

<Snip of signature>

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu

From:	The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:24:32 +1100

Message no. 17 > > Well, yes, but the drain doesn't reflect how ill you are (at least IMHO),
> > it just reflects the strain of channelling X much energy...
> That wasn't my point (sorry if that was teh impression). My point was that
> how damaged you are doesn't affect how well you can _resist_ drain.
> I guess it follows on from the rule that Damage resistance tests don't
> receive wound modifiers. But I see Drain Resistance as something totally
> different, the magician is steeling his will to resist the harmful effects
> of teh astral energies running through his aura. If teh mage is so ill or
> wounded that he can't even think straight I'd imagine he'd have a pretty
> tough time steeling his will.

Yeah, I see that, I must have been having a no-brainer when I replied to
your last post. About the best reason I can come up with as to why damage
mods shouldn't apply to drain resistance tests is:
I'M PLAYING A MAGE AND IT'S NOT FAIR TO MAKE ME GET HURT! *grin*

> > Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just silly.
> > My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain from
> > and dropping most opponents instantly.
> Which is really what I was getting at. If your mage had to resist drain
> from the mana dart whilst suffering a moderate wound i.e. +2TN then he is
> more likely to take the Light drain, which in turn gives him another +1TN
> meaning the next time he casts it....
> Thsi allows your mage to still cast Manadarts as freely as he does now,
> but only until he gets injured!

Injured? INJURED?? Only *silly* people get injured. :)
(I don't think Minx has EVER taken worse than a Moderate. And knowing that
luvley Resist Pain (M) spell... :) )

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------

From:	The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:28:01 +1100

Message no. 18 >
> > > Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just silly.
> > > My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain from
> > > and dropping most opponents instantly.
>
> Um, do you have a rating 6 power focus to help you? Were you using
> vision modifiers to hit the target? How about movement modifiers? My
> guess is that your GM wasn't applying all of the appropriate modifiers
> and that you had some outside assistance in resisting drain (foci,
> etc.) Drain isn't all that easy to resist according to the rules if you
> take everything into account. If you use a base target number equal to
> the opponent's body or will (as appropriate) without any mods and have a
> rating 6 power foci to help you, of course you will drop enemies like
> flies without breaking a sweat.

It was a Force 6 spell with an expendable fetish. That makes drain
force(6), divided by 2 (3), minus 1, L. That's a 3L. With 5 willpower and
4 magic pool (hey, who needs to put magic pool into a force 8 spell??),
it's not hard to get 2 3's off 9 dice... Voila. No drain.

Oh, and let's not forget Centring skill of 5.

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------

From:	Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:16:23 -0500

Message no. 19 At 09:24 AM 11/21/96 +1100, you wrote:
>> > Well, yes, but the drain doesn't reflect how ill you are (at least IMHO),
>> > it just reflects the strain of channelling X much energy...
>> That wasn't my point (sorry if that was teh impression). My point was that
>> how damaged you are doesn't affect how well you can _resist_ drain.
>> I guess it follows on from the rule that Damage resistance tests don't
>> receive wound modifiers. But I see Drain Resistance as something totally
>> different, the magician is steeling his will to resist the harmful effects
>> of teh astral energies running through his aura. If teh mage is so ill or
>> wounded that he can't even think straight I'd imagine he'd have a pretty
>> tough time steeling his will.
>
>Yeah, I see that, I must have been having a no-brainer when I replied to
>your last post. About the best reason I can come up with as to why damage
>mods shouldn't apply to drain resistance tests is:
>I'M PLAYING A MAGE AND IT'S NOT FAIR TO MAKE ME GET HURT! *grin*
>
>> > Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just silly.
>> > My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain from
>> > and dropping most opponents instantly.
>> Which is really what I was getting at. If your mage had to resist drain
>> from the mana dart whilst suffering a moderate wound i.e. +2TN then he is
>> more likely to take the Light drain, which in turn gives him another +1TN
>> meaning the next time he casts it....
>> Thsi allows your mage to still cast Manadarts as freely as he does now,
>> but only until he gets injured!
>
>Injured? INJURED?? Only *silly* people get injured. :)
>(I don't think Minx has EVER taken worse than a Moderate. And knowing that
>luvley Resist Pain (M) spell... :) )
>
I guess the reason that drain is not modified for damage levels is because
that would cause a downward spiral that would quickly result in an
unconscious mage. If damage modifiers affected the mage, he would have to
stop casting spells once damaged for fear of killing himself. The damage
modifier already applies to the spell test target number, it's double
jeopardy (US Constitution/Bill of Rights type reference) because now the
mage can afford to use fewer pool to assist that test because drain will be
much more difficult. That really isn't fair (we are talking game balance
not realism, sorry) because despite the gaping hole and brain matter leaking
out, sammies are quite content to keep the lead hoses running.

Drain is rough enough as it is, imagine if a sammie's gun shot him in the
hand everytime he used it, don't make it shoot FA also.

--Sanction

From:	Sanction <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:18:13 -0500

Message no. 20 At 09:28 AM 11/21/96 +1100, you wrote:
>>
>> > > Of course, we all figured that the drain rules in the book are just
silly.
>> > > My sorceror adept has a Force 8 Mana Dart that I was taking NO drain
from
>> > > and dropping most opponents instantly.
>>
>> Um, do you have a rating 6 power focus to help you? Were you using
>> vision modifiers to hit the target? How about movement modifiers? My
>> guess is that your GM wasn't applying all of the appropriate modifiers
>> and that you had some outside assistance in resisting drain (foci,
>> etc.) Drain isn't all that easy to resist according to the rules if you
>> take everything into account. If you use a base target number equal to
>> the opponent's body or will (as appropriate) without any mods and have a
>> rating 6 power foci to help you, of course you will drop enemies like
>> flies without breaking a sweat.
>
>It was a Force 6 spell with an expendable fetish. That makes drain
>force(6), divided by 2 (3), minus 1, L. That's a 3L. With 5 willpower and
>4 magic pool (hey, who needs to put magic pool into a force 8 spell??),
>it's not hard to get 2 3's off 9 dice... Voila. No drain.
>
>Oh, and let's not forget Centring skill of 5.
>
>Lady Jestyr

If a mage takes drain casting I-don't-care-what-force (below 10) manadart,
he should go buy a big heavy gun!

--Sanction

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:00:27 +0100

Message no. 21 The Jestyr said on 9:28/21 Nov 96...

> It was a Force 6 spell with an expendable fetish. That makes drain
> force(6), divided by 2 (3), minus 1, L. That's a 3L. With 5 willpower and
> 4 magic pool (hey, who needs to put magic pool into a force 8 spell??),
> it's not hard to get 2 3's off 9 dice... Voila. No drain.

6 / 2 - 1 = 2, not 3, so with your 9 dice plus 5 Centering, you'd have to
throw *really* bad not to resist that kind of drain :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dream out loud.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:43:45 +0000

Message no. 22 On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Sanction wrote:

> unconscious mage. If damage modifiers affected the mage, he would have to
> stop casting spells once damaged for fear of killing himself.
Yes, I know and thats what I like about it :) Seriously, tehy would have
to switch to lower force or lower drain spells, or under my optional magic
rules take more time to cast spells to reduce the drain target number.

> Drain is rough enough as it is, imagine if a sammie's gun shot him in the
> hand everytime he used it, don't make it shoot FA also.
Maybe its just been my experience but mages in my games have been pretty
darn tough. At least with a gun a target has a chance to dodge (Combat
Pool) and reduce its effects by wearing armour. Against combat spells
there isn't any such protection (except hiding, but you can hide from guns
as well).

My fave spell has always been Stun Missile force 6 Drain= 2M! And under if
injury modifiers did start affecting drain resistance you'd simply cast it
at force 5 Drain=1M (Half force round _down_). Still rather effective.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:22:31 -0500

Message no. 23 >
> My fave spell has always been Stun Missile force 6 Drain= 2M! And under
> if injury modifiers did start affecting drain resistance you'd simply
> cast it at force 5 Drain=1M (Half force round _down_). Still rather
> effective.
>
Not to pick hairs, but the lowest target number you can have in shadowrun
is two. So I don't know how one would work a F5 stun missle's drain

From:	The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:42:50 +1100

Message no. 24 > > It was a Force 6 spell with an expendable fetish. That makes drain
> > force(6), divided by 2 (3), minus 1, L. That's a 3L. With 5 willpower and
> > 4 magic pool (hey, who needs to put magic pool into a force 8 spell??),
> > it's not hard to get 2 3's off 9 dice... Voila. No drain.
>
> 6 / 2 - 1 = 2, not 3, so with your 9 dice plus 5 Centering, you'd have to
> throw *really* bad not to resist that kind of drain :)

Yes, but I remembered that it's F/2L drain, not F/2-1 L, which is a STUN
dart. I just forgot to remove the "minus one".

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 14:32:06 +0000

Message no. 25 On Thu, 21 Nov 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> > My fave spell has always been Stun Missile force 6 Drain= 2M! And under
> > if injury modifiers did start affecting drain resistance you'd simply
> > cast it at force 5 Drain=1M (Half force round _down_). Still rather
> > effective.
> >
> Not to pick hairs, but the lowest target number you can have in shadowrun
> is two. So I don't know how one would work a F5 stun missle's drain
Sorry to not be clear but 1M was teh base drain, and I was saying taht if
a wound had been taken, say only a LIght tehn the overall drain TN would
still be 2.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	"Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: The Healing Process
Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:42:21 -0700

Message no. 26 >> My fave spell has always been Stun Missile force 6 Drain= 2M! And under
>> if injury modifiers did start affecting drain resistance you'd simply
>> cast it at force 5 Drain=1M (Half force round _down_). Still rather
>> effective.

> Not to pick hairs, but the lowest target number you can have in shadowrun
> is two. So I don't know how one would work a F5 stun missle's drain

You can have a TN of 1, but 1 always fail. In this case what he's
talking about is if there is a modifier on the resistance (for god knows
what reason), say of +1, then the drain would be 2M; two are still
successes on the test.

-Tom-

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