Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:04:48 -0600

Message no. 1 This discussion of which came first the chicke-- I mean Earthdawn or
Shadowrun :) has piqued my curiousity. Could someone with better access
to earlier materials (Hi Gurth :) please identify in which products each
element of the percieved ED/SR crossover first appeared in Shadowrun?

As far as I know, Bug Spirits first appeared in the first Edition
Grimoire (Date unknown), Immortal Elves were hinted at, IIRC, the
decription of Elves in First Edition (1989?) but that may have been
Second Edition (1992), The implied threat of Horrors first appears with
the description of Wraiths in Paranormal Animals of Europe (1993).

What else am I missing?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	XaOs [David Goth] xaos@*****.net
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:09:03 -0600

Message no. 2 > This discussion of which came first the chicke-- I mean Earthdawn or
> Shadowrun :) has piqued my curiousity. Could someone with better access
> to earlier materials (Hi Gurth :) please identify in which products each
> element of the percieved ED/SR crossover first appeared in Shadowrun?

There is at least one page that discusses them. Just do a search on
earthdawn shadowrun links. I think that'll find it.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:30:55 +0100

Message no. 3 According to dghost@****.com, at 0:04 on 18 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> This discussion of which came first the chicke-- I mean Earthdawn or
> Shadowrun :) has piqued my curiousity. Could someone with better access
> to earlier materials (Hi Gurth :)

Did you _have_ to drag me into this? :)

> please identify in which products each element of the percieved ED/SR
> crossover first appeared in Shadowrun?
>
> As far as I know, Bug Spirits first appeared in the first Edition
> Grimoire (Date unknown)

That was published in 1990. <plug>See
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun/7100.html#06 </plug> :)

> Immortal Elves were hinted at, IIRC, the decription of Elves in First
> Edition (1989?) but that may have been Second Edition (1992), The
> implied threat of Horrors first appears with the description of Wraiths
> in Paranormal Animals of Europe (1993).

You're right about SR1 (1989, yes): "claims that there were elves already
adult when the UGE syndrome became widespread" etc. I'm not sure about the
first-edition Grimoire, as I never really read it (I only bought it last
year, IIRC). Harlequin (also from 1990) is, of course, all about immortal
elves, and AFAIK is the first place where their existance is explicitly
acknowledged.

As for the Horrors, these don't appear in SR until 1993, I think, with a
hint in PAoE and clues about "the Enemy" in Harlequin's Back (1994). Then
there's Worlds Without End that features a Horror in the supporting cast.

Then, of course, there are the Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg sourcebooks.
Especially the former drops heavy hints about the IE, but IIRC doesn't
come right out and say they exist.

Besides all that, there is Ehran the Scribe's speech to the YET, from
flyers from 1990 and 1991 (there are minor differences between the two
speeches, for some reason) and Tom Dowd's short stories from other flyers;
I've got a 1993 one that has the same story as the intro to Harlequin's
Back but with a different ending -- at the end, Harley tells Jane to "find
us some heroes," suggesting that the original idea was for Harley to
choose to involve the PCs, rather than letting "Fate" pick them for him.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:16:35 -0500

Message no. 4 Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>Besides all that, there is Ehran the Scribe's speech to the YET, from
>flyers from 1990 and 1991 (there are minor differences between the two
>speeches, for some reason)...

This speech predated the release of the rulebook.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Tommy Lindner tommy.lindner@*******.de
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:21:25 +0100

Message no. 5 Hi everybody,

I had for some reason the button "get me no mail" activated, but does the
header imply what I guess. Dragons is finally released and downloadable??
So, please let me know if that is true!

Many thanks in advance Tommy

From:	A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:28:44 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 6 And verily, did Tommy Lindner hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Hi everybody,
|
|I had for some reason the button "get me no mail" activated, but does the
|header imply what I guess. Dragons is finally released and downloadable??
|So, please let me know if that is true!

IT would (as the many messages complaining about the formatting would
confirm) appear to be true... Yes...

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Lehlan Decker DeckerL@******.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:24:50 -0500

Message no. 7 <SNIP is Dragons available>
Yes, its available from FASA's web site as a PDF file.
Formatting is a bit odd, and lots of pictures never got added, but
good stuff nevertheless.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:04:52 EST

Message no. 8 In a message dated 3/17/99 10:24:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

> This discussion of which came first the chicke-- I mean Earthdawn or
> Shadowrun :) has piqued my curiousity. Could someone with better access
> to earlier materials (Hi Gurth :) please identify in which products each
> element of the percieved ED/SR crossover first appeared in Shadowrun?

The Cross over (which I liked BTW) was over done with the horrors in SR (they
should not have been included since it should have been thousands of years
down the line) The ED side of the links were much better done.
Also, the 2 systems kinda started to find elements of each other. Such as a
few ED products that lent a more SRie feel to magic. This can be due to
overlapping authors also of course (heyif it works good in one system...)

From:	Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:12:34 -0800

Message no. 9 At 08:04 PM 3/18/99 EST, you wrote:
>The Cross over (which I liked BTW) was over done with the horrors in SR (they
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ah, finally, someone admitting to liking the crossover. I, in fact, liked
almost all of the crossover things. Kind of gave it a sense of history to
SR, along with our own history. Also, it was a conspiracy type of thing
with the IE's, although they took that a bit too far.. As for the horrors,
I even liked those.

And, for the record, I am not 10 years old, I don't think anything is ever
'kewl', I don't have any 'warez' on my computer, and I don't own a single
Magic card (or any other CCG, for that matter)

Dave

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:23:57 -0600

Message no. 10 On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:04:52 EST Schizi@***.com writes:
>In a message dated 3/17/99 10:24:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
<SNIP>
>The Cross over (which I liked BTW) was over done with the horrors in SR
(they
>should not have been included since it should have been thousands of
years
>down the line) The ED side of the links were much better done.

Well, it really depends on how you look at it. The Horrors did not come
over --- Well, a few might have.... Wait a second!!!! Deus is the
Artificer!!! (Read The Horrors SB) --- Anyway, their threat is something
to wave over the metahuman races' collective heads as the downside to
magic use. What I really like about the way Horrors were incorporated
was that their possible early arrival was the side effect of the Great
Ghost Dance. If this seems odd to you, remember that, in ED people
influence the way magic functions and it is not unreasonable that magic
use wuld influence magic's growth.

> Also, the 2 systems kinda started to find elements of each other. Such
as a
>few ED products that lent a more SRie feel to magic. This can be due to
>overlapping authors also of course (heyif it works good in one
system...)

By the way, I've thought a bit about it, game-mechanics wise, it is
easier to put SR into ED than ED into SR (I thought about creating a
campaign that spanned the two Eras which would require that the PCs were
IEs or otherwise Immortal.).

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:10:46 -0500

Message no. 11 > At 08:04 PM 3/18/99 EST, you wrote:
>>The Cross over (which I liked BTW) was over done with the horrors in SR (they
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Ah, finally, someone admitting to liking the crossover. I, in fact, liked
> almost all of the crossover things. Kind of gave it a sense of history to
> SR, along with our own history. Also, it was a conspiracy type of thing
> with the IE's, although they took that a bit too far..

I liked it up until it seemed to become the central focus of FASA's
products. Now that it has toned down, I like it again.

Then again, I really, really love Primal Order, so I'm probably not the best
litmus test.

Wordman

From:	XaOs [David Goth] xaos@*****.net
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:20:30 -0600

Message no. 12 > Then again, I really, really love Primal Order, so I'm probably
> not the best
> litmus test.

I LOVE Primal Order. For anyone wanting Deity level NPC's in their games,
this is the absolute best, most balanced, "realistic", system. (And even
provides tools for GM's that want their PC's to eventually reach deity
status...withOUT being munchkin).

God, I remember getting this book and thinking....Wizards Of The
Coast....they'll probably become something big. (I remember reading in their
little newsletter about their shareholders. If I only knew then....).

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-

From:	Devore jmortir@*****.net
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 00:13:22 -0600

Message no. 13 >I LOVE Primal Order. For anyone wanting Deity level NPC's in their games,
>this is the absolute best, most balanced, "realistic", system. (And even
>provides tools for GM's that want their PC's to eventually reach deity
>status...withOUT being munchkin).
>
>God, I remember getting this book and thinking....Wizards Of The
>Coast....they'll probably become something big. (I remember reading in
their
>little newsletter about their shareholders. If I only knew then....).
>
> -XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net
> -David Goth-

I still have my copy of Primal Order where I can get to it. Wizards of the
Coast should have stuck with their RPG roots. I was saddened when I read
that they had scrapped their RPG division so that they could focus on Magic:
the Gathering. I honestly felt that they had done themselves a disjustice by
doing that. And now they have their hands on TSR, well at least they are
back with RPG's (but couldn't it have at least been with one that I could
stand...) and I am praying that they didn't let all their talent go when
they did the big shift...

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.prysm.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awwww screw it. BYE!"

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:13:31 +0100

Message no. 14 According to MC23, at 9:16 on 18 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> >Besides all that, there is Ehran the Scribe's speech to the YET, from
> >flyers from 1990 and 1991 (there are minor differences between the two
> >speeches, for some reason)...
>
> This speech predated the release of the rulebook.

Are you sure? I have a 1990 flyer with the speech in it, and another on
one my HD that IIRC was typed in straight from a 1991 flyer. Where and
when did it first appear?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What in the wide wide world of sports is going on here?!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:00:33 -0600

Message no. 15 >The Cross over (which I liked BTW) was over done with the horrors in
SR (they
>should not have been included since it should have been thousands of
years
>down the line) The ED side of the links were much better done.
> Also, the 2 systems kinda started to find elements of each other.
Such as a
>few ED products that lent a more SRie feel to magic. This can be due
to
>overlapping authors also of course (heyif it works good in one
system...)

I bought ED because of its links to SR, and grew to like the game on
it's own merits.

As a SR GM, I like the history and background it provided, as well as
some mysterious elements to introduce now and again.

It is a history that I think should not be abandoned...modified to
tone down some of the IE influences, possibly, but now discarded.

Tony Rabiola
rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
(still working on the Fifth)
Proud owner BABY #972

From:	Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:02:05 -0800

Message no. 16 dghost@****.com wrote:
>
> As far as I know, Bug Spirits first appeared in the first Edition
> Grimoire (Date unknown), Immortal Elves were hinted at, IIRC, the
> decription of Elves in First Edition (1989?) but that may have been
> Second Edition (1992), The implied threat of Horrors first appears with
> the description of Wraiths in Paranormal Animals of Europe (1993).
> What else am I missing?

The first hint of IE was in the first promo flyer for Shadowrun. A speach
Ehran the Scribe gave to the YET.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia M. (Brujah) |Verdandi Anagnosis (Legion of Fate)
Madelynne (Malkavian)|Anjelika Cass (undisclosed)
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject:	The history of Shadowrun (Was: DRAGONS Available)
Date:	Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:08:20 -0800

Message no. 17 Gurth wrote:
>
> > This speech predated the release of the rulebook.
>
> Are you sure? I have a 1990 flyer with the speech in it, and another on
> one my HD that IIRC was typed in straight from a 1991 flyer. Where and
> when did it first appear?

I'm fairly positive the speech first appeared earlier in 1989 than the
rulebook. I recall using the flier as a basis for a GURPS MagicPunk game
(although no cyberpunk book was out, either). It might've been re-released
the next year (entirely possible), but it did appear before the first book.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia M. (Brujah) |Verdandi Anagnosis (Legion of Fate)
Madelynne (Malkavian)|Anjelika Cass (undisclosed)
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer