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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 15:20:01 -0800
This information can be found on the excellent Twilightrun page at
http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/megapulses.html. My comments are located
in the >>>>>[ ]<<<<< boxes. The original author is
apparantely
Talks-With-Cats. No offense or infringement is intended.
----------------------------------------------------------

Computing in Shadowrun
The nature of computing in Shadowrun is, at best, inobvious to anyone
familiar with modern computers, and at worst nonsensical. Why is a computer'
s power measured in megapulses (Mp), with memory and computing power
apparently being identical? What is a megapulse anyway? Why are so many of
them involved in Shadowland posts? And why is it so hard to make a secure
computer system? Here's my take on the matter.

>>>>>[Hmm? I always assumed that your MPCP was your decks "power"
and Mp
were memory units.]<<<<<

What is a "pulse"?
The basic technology of Shadowrun computing is the quantum pulse element,
usually just called a "pulse". Its basic nature is that it's a cluster of
quantum dots and wires (or maybe some funky proteins embedded in a
crystalline matrix, if you want computing to be completely optical in
nature) that can be reconfigured into a different set of logic elements on
the fly. If you want it to turn into a group of flip-flops, it can become
memory. If you want it to be an Arithmetic and Logic Unit instead, it can
switch to that in the middle of your program.

>>>>>[So some sort of "rod" logic as detailed in The Diamond Age?
"Pulse" is
not very descriptive however. "Configurable" processors are nothing new,
there has been research into using field programmable arrays for just such
an use. Viruses can be a LOT nastier in this enviroment if the very system
can be configured in this manner. And as you note later on the optical chips
are not burnable/configurable without special hardware.]<<<<<

Quantum pulse elements are so much faster and more convenient than other
forms of computing technology that the old silicon stuff has become quite
obsolete. With the universality of quantum pulse elements, you have access
to processing that's as parallel as you want it. All programs are compatible
with other computers, as long as the computer is big enough to run it.
Programs from older computers can easily be run on an emulator.

>>>>>[I'm leery of assigning even future computer technology too many
elements of "quantum" computers. And while reconfigurable systems may be
more efficient and faster you will have a hard time beating silicon or
gallium arsenide, or even plastic circuitry for cost. Don't expect the
future Whizz-O'-Matic blender to have a quantum "pulse" based chipset. As
for universal compatibility, that I don't buy at all. You'll still have
architectual differences, variant OS's and even incompatibility caused by
other installed software.]<<<<<

Naturally, programming and debugging with such elements is incredibly
difficult without computer assistance. People seldom write compilers from
scratch any more; the equivalent of assembly language for quantum pulse
elements makes programming for massively parallel RISC machines look simple.

>>>>>[So not only cost but development overhead comes into play. If I
wanted
to make an embedded system using this "pulse" technology I could very well
have to develop the necessary infrastructure from scratch. And if it really
is that hard and complex I'll just use an inferior, but vastly cheaper
technology.]<<<<<

When someone refers to a megapulse as a measure of size, that's the number
of bits that can be stored by 1,048,576 (220) quantum pulse elements
configured for uncompressed memory storage only. (A megapulse of computing
logic can usually store more than a megapulse of raw data, since it can be
configured as mixed memory and compression logic.)

>>>>>[Hmm. Ok.]<<<<<

So why do Shadowland posts take up so many megapulses?
The computing environment of Shadowrun is a descendent of the applet-filled
Java world currently growing on the Internet right now. Everyone has their
favorite word processor or other editing program; some people post by
speaking to the computer, some by sending in the bits over a direct neural
interface, some use keyboards. When you ship your message up, it could be as
small as the Unicode or even ASCII representation of your post, or it could
be a multimedia extravaganza with an animation of your Matrix icon speaking
your post out loud in your voice (or a synthesized one) and all the software
needed to run such a thing independently (instead of making someone download
a viewer). Naturally, when it gets converted to text for a paper sourcebook,
you wind up with the usual posts we're familiar with. This is, by modern
standards, horribly wasteful, but memory and storage are cheap, and the same
phenomenon that makes Microsoft Word take up 30MB on your hard drive today
hasn't gone away.

>>>>>[Soo...bad programming is the cause of the inflated Mp sizes shown in
the Shadowland posts..as opposed to say..the author not paying attention to
what he was writing when making the book.]<<<<<

The difference between data and executable in Shadowrun is almost
nonexistent. Sensibly paranoid deckers keep a suite of trusted programs for
reading the myriad different data file formats, rather than risking the
possibility that the file handed to them could be hostile. Most cyberdecks
have a diagnostic mode that allows the decker to freeze the deck into
read-only mode and run comparison utilities on their personal computer,
making sure that a virus hasn't snuck into the software. (The notion that a
virus can sneak into firmware- seen in the "Escher loop" in Lone Star and
the "Worms" IC in VR 2.0- lacks believability. If you could do that in
software, you wouldn't need optical chip encoders.)

>>>>>[Well isn't that the very thing your proposal of configurable logic
allows?]<<<<<

Mainframes hooked up to the Matrix tend to be pumping around large amounts
of executable content as various utilities running on the mainframe talk to
their creators' sites to pick up the latest updates and access data that's
not worth keeping at the local site. Decking, in my view, is the art of
corrupting the data streams going into a mainframe in order to gain access
to the system.

>>>>>[I keep hearing thin clients are dead. Guess Sun and Oracle won the
computer wars in the Shadowrun universe. Seems generally more efficient to
use fat clients maintaining their own executables, and grabbing updates as
they become available. What do you mean corrupting the data streams exactly?
Sneaking in your data with the other data that is entering their system?
Sounds like spoofing.]<<<<<

If that rationalization isn't strong enough for you, here's an extension of
the notion:

Bellcore did a study back in the late 1980's that showed that with a
sufficiently high-speed network, it could be more efficient to have data in
constant circulation, rather than being provided on request by a server: if
the data goes by faster than the request-response cycle, and you have
bandwidth to spare, you might as well just have the data being pumped by.
Computers on the network could then simply grab whatever chunk of the
operating system or the Encyclopedia Britannica they need at the moment.

>>>>>[I'd be interested in the premise of this study and what exactly they
were applying this towards. And as anyone who uses corporate networks know
you can never seem to have enough bandwidth - every time you get more it
gets saturated shortly thereafter.]<<<<<

The Matrix could be a phenomenon of this nature: the routers handling Matrix
traffic might be keeping data "pumped" throughout the network, and the
biggest cost of taking your mainframe off the Matrix is that you'd have to
buy gigapulses and gigapulses of memory to store all the software your
mainframe might need, rather than just picking it up off the Matrix. Entire
data havens could hide inside that incredible flow of traffic, being quietly
rebroadcast along with all the other information.

>>>>>[Oracle must be having a field-day in 2060! Essentially you are saying
everyone is hooked up to the Matrix backbone and getting everyone elses
data. If you wanted to watch a simsense show you just snatch it out of the
datastream and watch it. I don't buy this both from the data integrity issue
(cracking software just got a lot easier!!), piracy and spoofing
software.]<<<<<

Why Does My Encephalon Need a Skillsoft?
Requiring an encephalon to be slotting a decking skillsoft in order to get a
bonus during decking doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. To keep the
same game balance while improving believability, I suggest that the
skillsoft be replaced with a program of the same rating and space
requirements as a specialized decking skillsoft, with the purpose of
properly utilizing the encephalon's capabilities during decking. In
particular, this program would interface to the deck and make it possible to
provide extra information at the level of skills and memory: instead of
having to read statistics about whatever the decker was perceiving, they
would simply know them.

Making Sense of Decking
"The Crystal Wind is the Storm, and the Storm is Data, and the Data is
Life."
-the Player's Litany

Decking, as represented in Virtual Realities 2.0, doesn't always make a
great deal of sense when you contemplate how computers actually work. This
problem is endemic to most cyberpunk, in fact: William Gibson's Neuromancer,
which is perhaps the classic decker book, was written by a man who wasn't
even computer-literate at the time.

>>>>>[You have to admit VR2 does a pretty good job
though.]<<<<<

I take my inspiration from an out-of-print work of cyberpunkish fiction
titled The Long Run, by Daniel Keys Moran. His work contains the only
believable depiction of decking I've seen in fiction. (Daniel Keys Moran's
day job is, of course, being a computer programmer.)

>>>>>[Which may or may not mean much.]<<<<<

There are some different terms in Daniel Keys Moran's universe of the
Continuing Time. Garden-variety deckers are called webdancers, the Matrix is
called the Crystal Wind, and the top-notch folk like FastJack are called
Players.

Images in the Crystal Wind
Despite numerous depictions of deckers responding to computers in
milliseconds, this is not actually the case. There is simply no way that a
human being, whose thoughts take place at the speed of ions diffusing across
semipermeable membranes in a complex network of of wet tissue, can keep up
with the speed of the computer world. A decker needs a program to intercede
for him between the computer world and that of human reaction times. This is
the job of the Master Persona Control Program. The MPCP is a program the
represents the decker in the Matrix; it carries as much of the decker's
decision-making capability as they can get down into code. On its own, an
MPCP following verbal orders should be capable of a great deal of work
without even a decker directly attached. With the decker present, the MPCP
becomes an extension of the decker's will, a customized interface to a world
where the speed of light is an important limit on reaction time.

>>>>>[No computer system would run at anywhere near lightspeed. Even a
fully
optical computer would have switches and logic gates, as well as chips that
run at considerably lower speeds then light. Then you have distances
involved between components, response delay of programs and the speed that
the OS can switch between tasks.]<<<<<

The MPCP, under ordinary circumstances, never gets used as anything other
than a way of integrating the other persona programs (which are basically
libraries).

>>>>>[I've always looked at the MPCP was more a piece of firmware that
coordinated your Persona programs. You don't have a CPU as such since a
cyberdeck is assumed to use several specialized processors. Much like a high
end console system of today.]<<<<<

Datastarve
Decking is supposed to be addictive. However, there is nothing in the source
material to suggest why anyone would stay in the Matrix when they weren't
breaking into systems- and there's no way anyone would spend all their time
doing that, as they'd be bound to screw up eventually.

>>>>>[Information is addicting. Anyone who spends a large amount of time
can
agree with that.]<<<<<

So why do deckers spend all their time out there on the Matrix? Part of
their time will be spent in working on code for various projects, of course.
Another part will be satisfying their curiosity. The World Wide Web of 1997
is already addictive: it is very easy to waste hours chasing down
interesting information with search engines and sites filled with links, and
taking part in USENET newsgroups.

>>>>>[Exactly. Especially in the future Matrix where you can be and
experience literally whatever you can imagine!]<<<<<

Deckers should be information addicts to some degree or other. They may be
in the habit of wandering around with an unobstrusive fiber optic cable
snaking into their datajack, feeding information into their encephalon and
display link, or be nearly impossible to tear away from the data feed. They
should feel naked if they can't glance up at the sky, wonder about the
weather, and download real-time pictures from a satellite and check them
against the forecasts from the meteorology services, or are out of range of
being paged when one of their automated filters finds something of great
importance. (For instance, a decker once surprised by an earthquake might
set up a filter to monitor global seismology stations and page him
immediately if the magnitude and distance are right for him to notice it;
such a filter might get there in advance of the first crustal waves.)

>>>>>[Exactly. I'd do this right now if I could.]<<<<<

Icons
The whole notion that there needs to be a correspondence between iconography
in the Matrix and the purpose and power of the programs the icons represent
is nonsense. Computers don't care about icons. Human beings may demand that
software conform to certain standards in order for them to have a better
chance of understanding it- but why is a decker going to make life easy for
them? A powerful attack program may manifest as a huge flaming sword to
comply with iconography, but it could just as easily be a petite derringer,
a poisoned dart shuriken, or completely invisible. A deck's Sensor module
would pass the important information on to the decker, but a sarariman doing
his job would probably have no idea what was going on.

>>>>>[Icons were always a disposable concept, I always assumed your Sensor
suite was the one rendering programs as wolves or doors or whatever. Fitting
it into the metaphor of the Matrix to quite another poster.]<<<<<

What are those utilities doing?
It may help the computer-literate to consider what the parts of a cyberdeck
are doing at a programmatic level.

The Bod program is a hybrid descendent of Purify and virus-checking
software. Its job is to perform huge amounts of error checking, enforcing
memory protection, perfoming constant checksumming on code while it runs,
and more: all the work of preventing a decker's running programs from being
corrupted.

>>>>>[Which one wonders why you can't separate the memory space these
programs are running in totally. Or better yet running them in firmware.
Unless they require input and output there is little reason to make them
immune to normal corruption methods.]<<<<<

A deck's Evasion code is concerned with making it difficult to find the
decker's programs in order to do anything to them. Its techniques include
spawning extra processes with similar characteristics to the important ones
the decker is running, shifting executing code to different spots in the
machine's address space, and leaving false trails in all the locations that
monitor system resources.

>>>>>[I doubt it's one "uber" program. More likely it's a suite
of software.
Some commercial, some custom, some old. None of the Persona "programs" are
just one program - but a constellation of programs and untilities. An
example of a program in your Evasion suite would be the software that munges
your datatrail]<<<<<

The Masking code attempts to cloak the decker from discovery. In addition to
shifting the appearance of the user's icon to an appearance appropriate to
the local host, it also camouflages the characteristics of the decker's
utilities to make them appear to be legitimate programs running on the
system. This includes activities such as talking to license servers,
accessing the appropriate support files for a given utility, and inserting
the user's code into a running utility program to steal its resources.

>>>>>[Your icon makes no difference except to yourself I would imagine. If
you buy our original discussion on this you would be seen as a "default" to
other people unless you broadcast yourself. Most people would not even see
you. Why would you want to offload your decks programs onto the server to
begin with? If you wanted to get it to run some malicious code I could see.
I would not mind seeing Masking and Evasion be combined into one stat in
fact.]<<<<<

Sensors make sense out of the chaos of the computer world. Any good decker
knows that icons are nothing more than an illusion wrapped around the true
reality that happens in the computer; frequently, these illusions are
dangerously deceptive. The deck's Sensors provide annotations to other icons
in the area, and supply vital statistics about the system as the decker
operates it. A very large part of the Sensors suite is the heuristics for
knowing which information to feed the decker at the right time. This is the
major place where an encephalon helps out with decking, as the sensors can
simply feed the information directly to the decker's short-term memory
without requiring additional time for conscious processing.

>>>>>[Uhm. Ok. I've always assumed your sensors do the interpreting
anyones.
No annotation of existing icons would be needed. Otherwise the Sensor suite
is an advanced version of existing network diagnostic tools.]<<<<<

So what's that IC doing, then?
FASA's treatment of IC is occasionally lacking in an understanding of
computer technology. Here's what I've done to make sense of it:

Killer IC is a straightforward, half-tamed descendent of Core Wars, designed
for the modern computing environment. It attempts to scramble code, free
allocated memory, kill processes and threads, deny permissions, and
similarly cause a decker's programs to become unstable and crash. A Data
Bomb is just specially triggered Killer IC, and Tar Baby IC is just Killer
IC targeted against programs that attempt to do a particular thing.

Crippler IC is designed to attack the sorts of code that are used in the
appropriate deck attributes. Acid IC targets Bod by setting its own hostile
callbacks on requests for memory protection and attempting to separate the
Bod code from the programs it protects. Binder attacks Evasion by invading
the decker's address space and leaving haphazard data trails that make it
obvious where the decker is. Marker breaks Masking by blocking access to
license servers and protecting other utilities running on the system from
invasion. Jammer goes after Sensors by intercepting requests for system
information and returning hostile code or nonsensical data.

The nature of quantum pulse elements is such that it is possible to burn
them out through executing an appropriate series of instructions. (One of
the major parts of compiler design is searching for possible errors that
could lead to this sort of problem!) This makes it possible for IC to
actually damage a decker's burned-in utilities. Blaster does exactly this,
and the different Rippers are just like the Cripplers above, but sending
code on down to the deck to attack the firmware of the routines they're
attacking.

>>>>>[Blah, I don't buy this at all.]<<<<<

Scramble is a complete misnomer for that kind of IC, and Decrypt is
definitely not the right name for the program that defeats it. Scramble
doesn't work through encryption; it works through destruction. Decrypt
should be named Unscramble, and the description of everything makes perfect
sense as long as you ignore any references to actual encryption.

Sparky simply doesn't make sense. I sincerely doubt there are any deckers
who allow anything other than a fiber-optic cable into their head, and it's
far too easy to (a) build a cyberdeck whose power supply can't be affected
by the code running on it and (b) run your actual visualization code on a
protected processor that won't transmit such a thing to the user. I just don
't believe Sparky, as a concept, would survive one round of the SOTA.
Substitute Blaster for Sparky where you find it.

>>>>>[But it's no problem to have the underlying "pulse" logic
burned
out?]<<<<<

Tar Pit is explained quite well in the source material.

Worms cannot truly invade the MPCP; if it were possible to put code into an
optical chip through running programs that interact with it, you wouldn't
need optical chip burners to create cyberdecks. What Worms do is target
particular security checks in your MPCP and burn them out, and then hide in
the "shadow" that this leaves.

>>>>>[It would be easier to say they don't exist then come up with an even
less plausible explanation. By your reasoning "formatting" the deck and
reinstalling would remove the Worms.]<<<<<

>>>>>[Ken]<<<<<
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 16:45:06 -0800
At 15:20 12/4/99 -0800, Tzeentch wrote:
>This information can be found on the excellent Twilightrun page at
>http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/megapulses.html. My comments are located
>in the >>>>>[ ]<<<<< boxes. The original author is
apparantely
>Talks-With-Cats. No offense or infringement is intended.
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>Computing in Shadowrun
>The nature of computing in Shadowrun is, at best, inobvious to anyone
>familiar with modern computers, and at worst nonsensical. Why is a computer'
>s power measured in megapulses (Mp), with memory and computing power
>apparently being identical? What is a megapulse anyway? Why are so many of
>them involved in Shadowland posts? And why is it so hard to make a secure
>computer system? Here's my take on the matter.

>>>>>>[Hmm? I always assumed that your MPCP was your decks
"power" and Mp
>were memory units.]<<<<<

If you read the descriptions of Shadowrun desktop computers, megapulses
are the only measure of power as well as capacity.

>What is a "pulse"?
>The basic technology of Shadowrun computing is the quantum pulse element,
>usually just called a "pulse".

>>>>>>[So some sort of "rod" logic as detailed in The Diamond
Age?

No, more on the order of "quantum dot" technology.

> "Pulse" is
>not very descriptive however.

Of course not. I'm trying to get FASA's descriptions of computing to
make sense to modern computer-literate individuals, not write a fresh
one from scratch.

>>>>>>[I'm leery of assigning even future computer technology too many
>elements of "quantum" computers. And while reconfigurable systems may be
>more efficient and faster you will have a hard time beating silicon or
>gallium arsenide, or even plastic circuitry for cost. Don't expect the
>future Whizz-O'-Matic blender to have a quantum "pulse" based chipset. As
>for universal compatibility, that I don't buy at all. You'll still have
>architectual differences, variant OS's and even incompatibility caused by
>other installed software.]<<<<<

Suit yourself. Go ahead and write up a decking system that *does*
take into account architectural differences; see if you can get anyone
to play it. My page was written to explain why it's possible to
be a Shadowrun decker at all.

>>>>>>[So not only cost but development overhead comes into play. If I
wanted
>to make an embedded system using this "pulse" technology I could very well
>have to develop the necessary infrastructure from scratch. And if it really
>is that hard and complex I'll just use an inferior, but vastly cheaper
>technology.]<<<<<

Do you have any idea of the effort involved in building even a modern
silicon lithography setup from scratch? And do you really think you
could then compete in the fast-paced corporate world depicted in Shadowrun
with slower technology?

>>>>>>[Soo...bad programming is the cause of the inflated Mp sizes shown
in
>the Shadowland posts..as opposed to say..the author not paying attention to
>what he was writing when making the book.]<<<<<

Again: I am trying to make sense of the existing FASA material, not
create my own system. This is an attempt to rationalize material
written about computers by people who are not highly computer literate,
but have the sense to avoid writing material that will become
obsolete like the descriptions of computers in _Traveller_ did.

>>>>>>[Well isn't that the very thing your proposal of configurable
logic
>allows?]<<<<<

Configurable logic implies that it can be reset. The Escher loop is
described as burning itself into the firmware, necessitating surgery
to swap out the datajack hardware to get rid of it.

>>>>>>[I keep hearing thin clients are dead. Guess Sun and Oracle won
the
>computer wars in the Shadowrun universe. Seems generally more efficient to
>use fat clients maintaining their own executables, and grabbing updates as
>they become available. What do you mean corrupting the data streams exactly?
>Sneaking in your data with the other data that is entering their system?
>Sounds like spoofing.]<<<<<

The following section that explains sending information around on the
network instead of doing a request/response architecture explains it.
Slipping your own packets into this datastream so a mainframe will
swap in corrupted code would then be a viable way to break in. If
you assume that the Shadowrun-era engineers are taking advantage of this,
it helps explain why it's possible to deck into a machine at all. If *I*
were involved in designing the Matrix, there would be lots of firewalls
that only permit data-- not executables-- to be transferred across it,
and lots of standards for making interchangeable data, and cyberterminals
would be used like Sony Playstations and not computer-crime tools.
But then it wouldn't be any fun to play deckers, and the Shadowrun
game is about having fun, not realistically modelling the decisions
of future computer architects.

>>>>>>[I'd be interested in the premise of this study and what exactly
they
>were applying this towards. And as anyone who uses corporate networks know
>you can never seem to have enough bandwidth - every time you get more it
>gets saturated shortly thereafter.]<<<<<

Get some of those Cisco routers that let you get up to 500 megabits
per second by multiplexing multiple parallel Ethernet cables, so
you've got 500 megabits per second throughout the company and
100 megabits per second from your PC to the nearest router, and
tell me how swamped you are... anyone remember Radio Free Ethernet?

>>>>>>[Oracle must be having a field-day in 2060! Essentially you are
saying
>everyone is hooked up to the Matrix backbone and getting everyone elses
>data. If you wanted to watch a simsense show you just snatch it out of the
>datastream and watch it. I don't buy this both from the data integrity issue
>(cracking software just got a lot easier!!), piracy and spoofing
>software.]<<<<<

There will be plenty of data stored on individual servers for specialized
data like simsense, but you could certainly expect your Windows machine
to work by plugging into the wall, downloading the latest operating
system and utilities, and keeping them updated from the stream broadcast
across the Net by Microsoft. Of course, you have to have that
"black box" that enables you to decrypt the packets encoded by Microsoft,
which only works when you pay your license fees...

>>>>>>[You have to admit VR2 does a pretty good job
though.]<<<<<

I disagree. Even VR2 makes it far too much work to be a decker with
all the separate utilities for the different actions.

>I take my inspiration from an out-of-print work of cyberpunkish fiction
>titled The Long Run, by Daniel Keys Moran. His work contains the only
>believable depiction of decking I've seen in fiction. (Daniel Keys Moran's
>day job is, of course, being a computer programmer.)

>>>>>>[Which may or may not mean much.]<<<<<

Go find a copy of _The Long Run_ and you'll see for yourself.

>>>>>>[No computer system would run at anywhere near lightspeed. Even a
fully
>optical computer would have switches and logic gates, as well as chips that
>run at considerably lower speeds then light. Then you have distances
>involved between components, response delay of programs and the speed that
>the OS can switch between tasks.]<<<<<

I didn't say that: I said it would be an important limit, in that
the response time would be proportional to the speed of light, as
opposed to the speed at which ions can diffuse across protein
membranes, which is likewise an important limit on how fast our
brains can respond.

>>>>>>[Information is addicting. Anyone who spends a large amount of
time can
>agree with that.]<<<<<

Only if they enjoy it. Research in a library is an onerous task for
some people.

>>>>>>[Which one wonders why you can't separate the memory space these
>programs are running in totally. Or better yet running them in firmware.
>Unless they require input and output there is little reason to make them
>immune to normal corruption methods.]<<<<<

Assume it cuts down on information transfer rates enough that you
can't keep up with machines that don't accept this limitation.
Think of it as the difference between doing load/store instructions
on chip versus going over the bus.

>>>>>>[Your icon makes no difference except to yourself I would imagine.
If
>you buy our original discussion on this you would be seen as a "default" to
>other people unless you broadcast yourself. Most people would not even see
>you. Why would you want to offload your decks programs onto the server to
>begin with?

Bandwidth! If you upload a program it can respond at machine speeds
to changing conditions on the target machine. Remember, every
foot of distance between the decker and the target machine takes
two nanoseconds off the decker's response time.

>The nature of quantum pulse elements is such that it is possible to burn
>them out through executing an appropriate series of instructions. (One of
>the major parts of compiler design is searching for possible errors that
>could lead to this sort of problem!) This makes it possible for IC to
>actually damage a decker's burned-in utilities. Blaster does exactly this,
>and the different Rippers are just like the Cripplers above, but sending
>code on down to the deck to attack the firmware of the routines they're
>attacking.
>
>>>>>>[Blah, I don't buy this at all.]<<<<<

You aren't required to. There are existing microprocessors in the
modern era that you can destroy through overheating with the right
set of instructions, so there's ample precedent, but you are free
to invent whatever system you like that makes sense of FASA's
decking system.

>>>>>>[But it's no problem to have the underlying "pulse"
logic burned
>out?]<<<<<

I can make a case for burning out pulse elements, but I can't make
one for frying someone's brain with electricity because it's too
easy to come up with a way to prevent that.

>>>>>>[It would be easier to say they don't exist then come up with an
even
>less plausible explanation.

If you consider it less plausible, you are welcome to drop them from
your campaign. Your decker PC's will thank you.

> By your reasoning "formatting" the deck and
>reinstalling would remove the Worms.]<<<<<

It would do that, but you'd have a higher error rate due to the burned-out
portions of your MPCP.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 3
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:34:27 -0800
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
> >>>>>>[Hmm? I always assumed that your MPCP was your decks
"power" and Mp
> >were memory units.]<<<<<
> If you read the descriptions of Shadowrun desktop computers, megapulses
> are the only measure of power as well as capacity.

>>>>>[I assumed the processors were able to handle whatever it is you
wanted
to do on them and thus their stats were ignored. With the processor
technology available in the future only deckers really NEED powerful
systems. The pocket secretaries of the future could probably be ran on the
equivalent of a PIII for all they really get used for.]<<<<<

<snip what is a pulse>

> >>>>>>[I'm leery of assigning even future computer technology too
many
> >elements of "quantum" computers. And while reconfigurable systems may
be
> >more efficient and faster you will have a hard time beating silicon or
> >gallium arsenide, or even plastic circuitry for cost. Don't expect the
> >future Whizz-O'-Matic blender to have a quantum "pulse" based chipset.
As
> >for universal compatibility, that I don't buy at all. You'll still have
> >architectual differences, variant OS's and even incompatibility caused by
> >other installed software.]<<<<<
> Suit yourself. Go ahead and write up a decking system that *does*
> take into account architectural differences; see if you can get anyone
> to play it. My page was written to explain why it's possible to
> be a Shadowrun decker at all.

>>>>>[Hey don't be so defensive. It's all pseudo-scientific technobabble in
the end, if someone has a different view don't get too mad. Just because I
assume that there WILL be hardware and software incompatibility in the
future does not mean I'm going to hammer the players with it - we can assume
their characters only get compatible gear. And we already have canon
incompatibility, you can't run mainframe programs on a cyberdeck.]<<<<<

> >>>>>>[So not only cost but development overhead comes into play.
If I
wanted
> >to make an embedded system using this "pulse" technology I could very
well
> >have to develop the necessary infrastructure from scratch. And if it
really
> >is that hard and complex I'll just use an inferior, but vastly cheaper
> >technology.]<<<<<
> Do you have any idea of the effort involved in building even a modern
> silicon lithography setup from scratch? And do you really think you
> could then compete in the fast-paced corporate world depicted in Shadowrun
> with slower technology?

>>>>>[What? Why remake the wheel. Just use the stuff that already exists.
Newer does not equal better in all cases. And cost will still be a GIANT
factor, especially in the embedded market. Just because quantum pulse
technology (or whatever) is drekhot cutting edge does not mean you'll see it
in the 2060 line of toasters. Silicon and plastic based semiconductor based
tech will be around for a LONG time.]<<<<<

> >>>>>>[Soo...bad programming is the cause of the inflated Mp sizes
shown
in
> >the Shadowland posts..as opposed to say..the author not paying attention
to
> >what he was writing when making the book.]<<<<<
> Again: I am trying to make sense of the existing FASA material, not
> create my own system. This is an attempt to rationalize material
> written about computers by people who are not highly computer literate,
> but have the sense to avoid writing material that will become
> obsolete like the descriptions of computers in _Traveller_ did.

>>>>>[Agreed. I was just talking out loud.]<<<<<

> >>>>>>[Well isn't that the very thing your proposal of configurable
logic
> >allows?]<<<<<
> Configurable logic implies that it can be reset. The Escher loop is
> described as burning itself into the firmware, necessitating surgery
> to swap out the datajack hardware to get rid of it.

>>>>>[I don't have Lone Star so I'm no "up" on what the Escher
program was
supposed to do. Does sound pretty bogus.]<<<<<

<snip my stuff>
>The following section that explains sending information around on the
> network instead of doing a request/response architecture explains it.
> Slipping your own packets into this datastream so a mainframe will
> swap in corrupted code would then be a viable way to break in. If
> you assume that the Shadowrun-era engineers are taking advantage of this,
> it helps explain why it's possible to deck into a machine at all. If *I*
> were involved in designing the Matrix, there would be lots of firewalls
> that only permit data-- not executables-- to be transferred across it,
> and lots of standards for making interchangeable data, and cyberterminals
> would be used like Sony Playstations and not computer-crime tools.
> But then it wouldn't be any fun to play deckers, and the Shadowrun
> game is about having fun, not realistically modelling the decisions
> of future computer architects.

>>>>>[I don't have a giant problem rationalizing the current SR system as
it
is. I'm not a big fan of thin client computing so maybe that clouds my
judgement on your view. Like I said before, one variation of technobabble is
pretty much as good as another one assuming they are both coherent and
logical.]<<<<<

> >>>>>>[I'd be interested in the premise of this study and what
exactly
they
> >were applying this towards. And as anyone who uses corporate networks
know
> >you can never seem to have enough bandwidth - every time you get more it
> >gets saturated shortly thereafter.]<<<<<
>
> Get some of those Cisco routers that let you get up to 500 megabits
> per second by multiplexing multiple parallel Ethernet cables, so
> you've got 500 megabits per second throughout the company and
> 100 megabits per second from your PC to the nearest router, and
> tell me how swamped you are... anyone remember Radio Free Ethernet?

>>>>>[Since that means some serious $$$ I've never seen a network taken
that
far. And I was primarily thinking of the connection from the intranet to the
backbone. If you have a lot of people requesting data you can saturate
that..and then it really does not matter how badass your intranet is. Joe
Executive still can't watch his pr0n or check his stock quotes.]<<<<<

<snip Sun and Oracle>
> There will be plenty of data stored on individual servers for specialized
> data like simsense, but you could certainly expect your Windows machine
> to work by plugging into the wall, downloading the latest operating
> system and utilities, and keeping them updated from the stream broadcast
> across the Net by Microsoft. Of course, you have to have that
> "black box" that enables you to decrypt the packets encoded by Microsoft,
> which only works when you pay your license fees...

>>>>>[Seems fine for the end user, but I doubt a decker would trust
programs
he's "leasing" off the Matrix. Piracy must be rampant too.]<<<<<

> >>>>>>[You have to admit VR2 does a pretty good job
though.]<<<<<
> I disagree. Even VR2 makes it far too much work to be a decker with
> all the separate utilities for the different actions.

>>>>>[Hmm, I agree there are quite a few utilities in VR, but I just assume
those are suites of programs and exploits. If it's hard to justify why not
skip the mental gymnastics and create a new system? The players may not like
it, but look at the complete change from VR 1 to 2...]<<<<<

<snip The Long Run>

> >>>>>>[No computer system would run at anywhere near lightspeed.
Even a
fully
> >optical computer would have switches and logic gates, as well as chips
that
> >run at considerably lower speeds then light. Then you have distances
> >involved between components, response delay of programs and the speed
that
> >the OS can switch between tasks.]<<<<<
>
> I didn't say that: I said it would be an important limit, in that
> the response time would be proportional to the speed of light, as
> opposed to the speed at which ions can diffuse across protein
> membranes, which is likewise an important limit on how fast our
> brains can respond.

>>>>>[Personally while I see future computing being more interactive, I
don't see it being a paradigm shift in data-reaction speed like SR
postulates.]<<<<<

<snip information addiction>

> >>>>>>[Which one wonders why you can't separate the memory space
these
> >programs are running in totally. Or better yet running them in firmware.
> >Unless they require input and output there is little reason to make them
> >immune to normal corruption methods.]<<<<<
>
> Assume it cuts down on information transfer rates enough that you
> can't keep up with machines that don't accept this limitation.
> Think of it as the difference between doing load/store instructions
> on chip versus going over the bus.

>>>>>[Works for me, either that or you have to be constantly tweaking the
programs to stay SOTA..]<<<<<

<snip my stuff>
> Bandwidth! If you upload a program it can respond at machine speeds
> to changing conditions on the target machine. Remember, every
> foot of distance between the decker and the target machine takes
> two nanoseconds off the decker's response time.

>>>>>[Hmm, our ideas on the response time for deckers is orders of
magnitude
different so it's hard to comment. It's logical given your postulation about
streaming executables.]<<<<<

<snip burning out quantum pulses>
> >>>>>>[Blah, I don't buy this at all.]<<<<<
>
> You aren't required to. There are existing microprocessors in the
> modern era that you can destroy through overheating with the right
> set of instructions, so there's ample precedent, but you are free
> to invent whatever system you like that makes sense of FASA's
> decking system.

>>>>>[I just ignore bogosity if it's too hard to
justify.]<<<<<

<snip my stuff>
> I can make a case for burning out pulse elements, but I can't make
> one for frying someone's brain with electricity because it's too
> easy to come up with a way to prevent that.

>>>>>[Yah, that's ridiculous in any cyberpunk game. I think only Cyberpunk
2020 took it to the farthest extreme though.]<<<<<

> >>>>>>[It would be easier to say they don't exist then come up with
an
even
> >less plausible explanation.
> If you consider it less plausible, you are welcome to drop them from
> your campaign. Your decker PC's will thank you.

>>>>>[It's hard enough getting anyone to play deckers as it is. I'm sure
ditching the more bogus stuff would help increase interest.]<<<<<

> >By your reasoning "formatting" the deck and
> >reinstalling would remove the Worms.]<<<<<
> It would do that, but you'd have a higher error rate due to the burned-out
> portions of your MPCP.

>>>>>[Logical in your view of things I admit.]<<<<<

>>>>>[You sounded a bit offended, I hope that is not the case. I was just
commenting on it. If I sounded like I was ripping into the text, then I
apologize, that was not the intent. I was unable to find The Long Run in any
local bookstores but I have read the excerpts on the site and the GURPS
adapted material. Interesting, though the setting annoys me for some reason.
Have you read Tad Williams Otherland series? Excellent series I can highly
recommend as being in the same "genre" as William Gibson, with more
metaphysical overtones...]<<<<<

Ken

"If some unemployed punk in New Jersey can get a casette to make love to
Elle McPherson for $19.95, this virtual reality stuff is going to make crack
look like Sanka."
-Dennis Miller

>Max Rible
Message no. 4
From: Asymmetric all@******.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:00:21 -0500
At 16:45 12/5/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:

>Of course not. I'm trying to get FASA's descriptions of computing to
>make sense to modern computer-literate individuals, not write a fresh
>one from scratch.

I think the only way this can even remotely work (MP as a single, universal
unit; outside of using hardware that can actually reconfigure itself
through lithography, nanites, or what have you) would be if all the
machines in this universe had vast stores of ram, and ran everything via a
sort of Java JIT compiler for software, where for enhanced "hardware"
capability by emulating this capability though software. This way only
very basic hardware would be in the deck outside of the memory, even IO
ports would be little more than some kind of DMA device that reads and
writes raw data out a port, and the software is responsible for formatting
the data correctly for any given kind of connection; it would also still
require some kind of processor that would limit the speed that the deck
would run at.

>Suit yourself. Go ahead and write up a decking system that *does*
>take into account architectural differences; see if you can get anyone
>to play it. My page was written to explain why it's possible to
>be a Shadowrun decker at all.

I'm working on that myself, and it'll be playable, I guarantee it. ;)

>Do you have any idea of the effort involved in building even a modern
>silicon lithography setup from scratch? And do you really think you
>could then compete in the fast-paced corporate world depicted in Shadowrun
>with slower technology?

What determines "slower?" A bunch of cheap processors, or one super
expensive fast one.. you can get the same results. Given the vast changes
we've seen in capability and speed of microprocessors, there is still no
physical reason you can't run any software that is released right now on a
386 with sufficient memory, and a really wacky software emulation layer.

>Again: I am trying to make sense of the existing FASA material, not
>create my own system. This is an attempt to rationalize material
>written about computers by people who are not highly computer literate,
>but have the sense to avoid writing material that will become
>obsolete like the descriptions of computers in _Traveller_ did.

They could avoid that problem by simply keeping to technology as it exists
now, and just coming up with new buzzwords, like they did with
megapulses. They could replace megabyte with megapulse, megahertz with
pulsecycles, etc.. There was no realy reason to replace everything with
some outlandish thing then not explain how it works, because more or less,
it wouldn't work that way regardless of the tech level.

One of my favorite examples is simsense. I'm a programmer. I'm a hacker,
if such a thing really exists. Know what? You wouldn't catch me using a
3d VR interface to code or hack no matter how bloody neato it looked.

If the server-side expected to talk to some 3d interface, I'd just
use/write something that spoke the right "language" to the server, but
still displayed everything in 2D. I'd never use any kind of simsense
whatsoever, I don't need to hear/touch/smell/taste/whatever the net, I just
want information, and I want it now. The simple fact is, no matter how
advanced or futuristic the technology, the server is talking some protocol
to the client, and it's up to the client to represent that data to the user
however he or she wants it.

To quote one of the best futuristic hacker novels I've ever read.. scratch
that, the best.. here is a quote from "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson :

"Hiro is messing around it Flatland. He is doing this partly to conserve
the computer's batteries; rendering a three-dimentional office takes a lot
of processors working full-time, while a simple two-dimensional desktop
display requires minimal power.

But his real reason for being in Flatland is that Hiro Protagonist, last of
the freelance hackers, is hacking. And when hackers are hacking, they
don't mess around with the superficial world of Metaverses and
avatars. They descend below this surface layer and into the netherworld of
nam-shubs that supports it, where everything you see in the Metaverse, no
matter how lifelike and beautiful and three-dimensional, reduces to a
simple text file: a series of letters on an electronic page. It is a
throwback to the days when people programmed computers through primitive
teletypes and IBM punchcards.

Since then, pretty and user-friendly programming tools have been
developed. It's possible to program a computer now by sitting at your desk
in the Metaverse and manually connecting little preprogrammed units, like
Tinkertoys. But a real hacker would never use such techniques, any more
than a master auto mechanic would try to fix a car by sliding in behind the
steering wheel and watching the idiot lights on the dashboard."

I think the point makes itself.

>Configurable logic implies that it can be reset. The Escher loop is
>described as burning itself into the firmware, necessitating surgery
>to swap out the datajack hardware to get rid of it.

I think I'd more likely see something like I described above.. no swapping
parts.. just a super-fast processor (Reaction rating) along with some
storage (MP).


>The following section that explains sending information around on the
>network instead of doing a request/response architecture explains it.
>Slipping your own packets into this datastream so a mainframe will
>swap in corrupted code would then be a viable way to break in. If
>you assume that the Shadowrun-era engineers are taking advantage of this,
>it helps explain why it's possible to deck into a machine at all. If *I*
>were involved in designing the Matrix, there would be lots of firewalls
>that only permit data-- not executables-- to be transferred across it,
>and lots of standards for making interchangeable data, and cyberterminals
>would be used like Sony Playstations and not computer-crime tools.
>But then it wouldn't be any fun to play deckers, and the Shadowrun
>game is about having fun, not realistically modelling the decisions
>of future computer architects.

Uhm. An executable is just data. You can have a garbage file, you can
have an executable file. You won't know which is which without either a
semi-sophisticated analysis tool, or just trying to run it.

If they could even recognize an executable, by file structure, header, etc,
this still wouldn't work on compressed files "like zip files today", or
worse, password protected files.

Telling data from code is impossible.. they're not different things.

>Get some of those Cisco routers that let you get up to 500 megabits
>per second by multiplexing multiple parallel Ethernet cables, so
>you've got 500 megabits per second throughout the company and
>100 megabits per second from your PC to the nearest router, and
>tell me how swamped you are... anyone remember Radio Free Ethernet?

You're plenty swamped when you hit the T1 (1.54 megabits) or T3
(45megabits) that your router is hooked up to. Internal traffic will fly,
just like it does now.. external data will get swamped, just like it does
now. The day the internet starts at the backbone with super high bandwidth
and trickles down to every single (or even the majority of) end users,
having less bandwidth, is the day pigs fly.

No matter how fast your company can download stuff from the matrix, they'll
never settle for not being able to transfer things around internally faster.

>There will be plenty of data stored on individual servers for specialized
>data like simsense, but you could certainly expect your Windows machine
>to work by plugging into the wall, downloading the latest operating
>system and utilities, and keeping them updated from the stream broadcast
>across the Net by Microsoft. Of course, you have to have that
>"black box" that enables you to decrypt the packets encoded by Microsoft,
>which only works when you pay your license fees...

Or you hack the black box.

>I disagree. Even VR2 makes it far too much work to be a decker with
>all the separate utilities for the different actions.

I don't have it.. actually, I don't have any of the SR books.. or any of
the CP books.. or hardly any RPGs anymore.. but I've played them, and I
know technology.. so I chill here listening to ideas while I write my own
decking system, since as a real life fluent computer user I was disgusted
by both systems.

>Go find a copy of _The Long Run_ and you'll see for yourself.

Check out Snow Crash.. besides some of the basic premise, like the virus
the book revolves around, NS' idea of hackers, the network, etc, is very
right on and believable.


>I didn't say that: I said it would be an important limit, in that
>the response time would be proportional to the speed of light, as
>opposed to the speed at which ions can diffuse across protein
>membranes, which is likewise an important limit on how fast our
>brains can respond.

Which brings up another point for me.. jacking in may be fun for the
simsense, and the ease of use.. but it's certainly not going to be
required.. your brain will never be faster than a computer, not even
appreciably faster than your hands when both are compared to the system
you're going up against.

You don't hack systems by having a faster processor or faster hands, you
hack them by being smarter and more informed than the system and it's
administrators.

>Assume it cuts down on information transfer rates enough that you
>can't keep up with machines that don't accept this limitation.
>Think of it as the difference between doing load/store instructions
>on chip versus going over the bus.

Doesn't hold water.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the fastest machine going for cracking
DES is not doing it in software, the chips are specifically designed to
crack DES, and can really not do much of anything else. Hardware will
always be faster than software.

>Bandwidth! If you upload a program it can respond at machine speeds
>to changing conditions on the target machine. Remember, every
>foot of distance between the decker and the target machine takes
>two nanoseconds off the decker's response time.

Where did that stat come from?

>You aren't required to. There are existing microprocessors in the
>modern era that you can destroy through overheating with the right
>set of instructions, so there's ample precedent, but you are free
>to invent whatever system you like that makes sense of FASA's
>decking system.

There are also tons of more processors that don't have this flaw.. just
like there are existing monitors that it's possible to get "image burn" on
from leaving the same screen up for too long.. fortunately this just isn't
true anymore.

>I can make a case for burning out pulse elements, but I can't make
>one for frying someone's brain with electricity because it's too
>easy to come up with a way to prevent that.

It's the same as burning out their software.. geeze even the simplest
protection scheme on the deck could prevent it. Like a little switch on
the deck, that when flipped, disables the "write" mode of the deck,
physically.. sort of like changing the jumper on your motherboard when you
have to flash a new bios into it. No amount of code is going to overwhelm
that jumper, and there is no speed penalty for having it in either setting.

>It would do that, but you'd have a higher error rate due to the burned-out
>portions of your MPCP.

If they're just writing to it with garbage, why can't you just replace it
via code the same way, by writing over it with all the right code?

At the very least, if some GM insists on using this system of bogosity, I'd
change the rules around a little to make it just as difficult to hack the
deck as it would be for that specific program to hack any other system..
all the while a little beeping or flashing light alerting the decker that a
suspected intrusion is in progress, and it's be trivial for the decker to
either kill the attacking process if it was actually running on his deck,
or just disconnect the offending process before it could get past the
security. Personally, I'd just physically write protect the important
parts of my system before making a run, and have any data I download go
into a write-once media, no seeking or overwriting of data allowed.. if
some bogus data gets fed into the datastream and I download it, oh well,
try again, but no erasing what I already have, no way.


-A

"There comes a time when the operation of a machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; not even tacitly take
part, and you have to throw yourself on all the gears and all the levers
and you have to make it stop."

-Mario Savio, founder of the free speech movement.

Commandment XI: Thou shalt not inflict upon me thy useless prattlings, for
I thy God am a busy God.
-Joe Thompsonn
Message no. 5
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:04:25 -0800
At 17:34 12/5/99 -0800, Tzeentch wrote:
>>>>>>[I assumed the processors were able to handle whatever it is you
wanted
>to do on them and thus their stats were ignored. With the processor
>technology available in the future only deckers really NEED powerful
>systems. The pocket secretaries of the future could probably be ran on the
>equivalent of a PIII for all they really get used for.]<<<<<

You can run it that way if you want. I prefer to have some measure
of computing power independent of memory.

>> Suit yourself. Go ahead and write up a decking system that *does*
>> take into account architectural differences; see if you can get anyone
>> to play it. My page was written to explain why it's possible to
>> be a Shadowrun decker at all.
>
>>>>>>[Hey don't be so defensive.

Don't be so offensive, then. If you want to offer an alternative
view, go ahead and do it, but don't waste anyone's time complaining
about whether mine is implausible or that you don't buy something
at all. I'm not selling you any products and I'm not your gamemaster.

>> Do you have any idea of the effort involved in building even a modern
>> silicon lithography setup from scratch? And do you really think you
>> could then compete in the fast-paced corporate world depicted in Shadowrun
>> with slower technology?

>>>>>>[What? Why remake the wheel. Just use the stuff that already
exists.
>Newer does not equal better in all cases. And cost will still be a GIANT
>factor, especially in the embedded market. Just because quantum pulse
>technology (or whatever) is drekhot cutting edge does not mean you'll see it
>in the 2060 line of toasters. Silicon and plastic based semiconductor based
>tech will be around for a LONG time.]<<<<<

Reflect on this reworking of your comment:

>>>>>[What? Why remake the wheel. Just use the stuff that already exists.
Newer does not equal better in all cases. And cost will still be a GIANT
factor, especially in the embedded market. Just because silicon microchip
technology (or whatever) is drekhot cutting edge does not mean you'll see it
in the 1999 line of toasters. Vacuum tubes and individual transistors
will be around for a LONG time.]<<<<<


>>>>>>[I don't have Lone Star so I'm no "up" on what the
Escher program was
>supposed to do. Does sound pretty bogus.]<<<<<

It is, especially including the portable hermetic circles providing
astral security for the prisoner moving vans. :-)

>>>>>>[Seems fine for the end user, but I doubt a decker would trust
programs
>he's "leasing" off the Matrix. Piracy must be rampant
too.]<<<<<

Of course. But only dedicated, security-conscious people will spend
for the secure program stores when they could just run it off the Net.

>>>>>>[Hmm, I agree there are quite a few utilities in VR, but I just
assume
>those are suites of programs and exploits. If it's hard to justify why not
>skip the mental gymnastics and create a new system?

That's even harder. :-)

>>>>>>[Personally while I see future computing being more interactive, I
>don't see it being a paradigm shift in data-reaction speed like SR
>postulates.]<<<<<

I'm trying to stick with SR postulates whenever possible, to maximize
compatibility with the existing system.

><snip my stuff>
>> Bandwidth! If you upload a program it can respond at machine speeds
>> to changing conditions on the target machine. Remember, every
>> foot of distance between the decker and the target machine takes
>> two nanoseconds off the decker's response time.
>
>>>>>>[Hmm, our ideas on the response time for deckers is orders of
magnitude
>different so it's hard to comment. It's logical given your postulation about
>streaming executables.]<<<<<

Even response time for the *deck* comes into play there, whether or
not the *decker* is involved.

>>>>>>[You sounded a bit offended, I hope that is not the case. I was
just
>commenting on it. If I sounded like I was ripping into the text, then I
>apologize, that was not the intent.

I've included hints on how you may wish to moderate your language
in the future.

> I was unable to find The Long Run in any
>local bookstores but I have read the excerpts on the site and the GURPS
>adapted material. Interesting, though the setting annoys me for some reason.

There's a GURPS adaptation of the Continuing Time? It's the first
I've heard of it. (I really like DKM's work. Daniel Keys Moran manages to
put together gods, AIs, genetic engineering, time travel, FTL travel,
aliens, cyberpunk, and mystic martial arts in a cohesive, gripping
narrative. You might have more luck finding _The Last Dancer_, which
is the one that really gives you perspective on the universe...)

>Have you read Tad Williams Otherland series? Excellent series I can highly
>recommend as being in the same "genre" as William Gibson, with more
>metaphysical overtones...]<<<<<

I've got River of Blue Fire on my In stack, but I'll wait until I
feel like re-reading City of Golden Shadows first so I can refresh
my memory.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 6
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:35:32 -0800
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
> >>>>>>[Hey don't be so defensive.
>
> Don't be so offensive, then. If you want to offer an alternative
> view, go ahead and do it, but don't waste anyone's time complaining
> about whether mine is implausible or that you don't buy something
> at all. I'm not selling you any products and I'm not your gamemaster.

Hmm, well as I stated in my private response I was not trying to "complain"
about your material. But if you can't take any comments on the logic of even
fictional technobabble there can be no hope and you should take your
material off your website since it might provoke others to ask questions as
well.

> Reflect on this reworking of your comment:
> >>>>>[What? Why remake the wheel. Just use the stuff that already
exists.
> Newer does not equal better in all cases. And cost will still be a GIANT
> factor, especially in the embedded market. Just because silicon microchip
> technology (or whatever) is drekhot cutting edge does not mean you'll see
it
> in the 1999 line of toasters. Vacuum tubes and individual transistors
> will be around for a LONG time.]<<<<<

And it's taken how long for semiconductors to reach the size and power and
cost effectiveness to be embedded in appliances? And why would it be
advantageous to use the system you postulate (that you say is expensive to
develop)?

Ken

"If some unemployed punk in New Jersey can get a casette to make love to
Elle McPherson for $19.95, this virtual reality stuff is going to make crack
look like Sanka."
-Dennis Miller


> %% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org %
http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
> %% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice.
%%
> %% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me
%%
>
>
Message no. 7
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:46:14 -0800
At 21:00 12/5/99 -0500, Asymmetric wrote:
>I think the only way this can even remotely work (MP as a single, universal
>unit; outside of using hardware that can actually reconfigure itself
>through lithography, nanites, or what have you)

I'm handwaving a quantum-physical contrivance.

>> Go ahead and write up a decking system that *does*
>>take into account architectural differences; see if you can get anyone
>>to play it. My page was written to explain why it's possible to
>>be a Shadowrun decker at all.
>
>I'm working on that myself, and it'll be playable, I guarantee it. ;)

Make sure to inform the list when you have it; I've been wishing for
something better than VR2 to work with for a very long time now...

>What determines "slower?" A bunch of cheap processors, or one super
>expensive fast one.. you can get the same results.

Only assuming arbitrary amounts of time spent on programming the bunch
of cheap processors. Consider the difficulty of making an arbitrary
number of 8086's do the work of one Pentium II. What's going to be
more expensive?

> Given the vast changes
>we've seen in capability and speed of microprocessors, there is still no
>physical reason you can't run any software that is released right now on a
>386 with sufficient memory, and a really wacky software emulation layer.

Though you might be coming in every few minutes to move the mouse
further and hit individual keys on the keyboard in order to make
progress...

>One of my favorite examples is simsense. I'm a programmer. I'm a hacker,
>if such a thing really exists. Know what? You wouldn't catch me using a
>3d VR interface to code or hack no matter how bloody neato it looked.

It might be useful for doing architecture diagrams when you're plotting
out how to construct a system, but I can't see how one would help in
the actual coding tasks.

>If the server-side expected to talk to some 3d interface, I'd just
>use/write something that spoke the right "language" to the server, but
>still displayed everything in 2D. I'd never use any kind of simsense
>whatsoever, I don't need to hear/touch/smell/taste/whatever the net, I just
>want information, and I want it now. The simple fact is, no matter how
>advanced or futuristic the technology, the server is talking some protocol
>to the client, and it's up to the client to represent that data to the user
>however he or she wants it.

The real reason for having the simsense 3-D interface is so you can
have wall-to-wall text windows for editing code, opening up man pages,
and watching the load graphs for the machines you're using... I'd
rather have a big 150-degree wraparound screen three feet high with
200dpi resolution, but the VR interface might be cheaper... :-)

>To quote one of the best futuristic hacker novels I've ever read.. scratch
>that, the best.. here is a quote from "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson

_Snow Crash_ is probably the best near-future one. Daniel Keys Moran's
_The Long Run_ is probably the best one for a century into the future.

[snip]
>I think the point makes itself.

The NPC decker I run has an "unreality filter" that reduces
all the fancy images to wireframes that have diagnostic information
highlighted...

>Uhm. An executable is just data. You can have a garbage file, you can
>have an executable file. You won't know which is which without either a
>semi-sophisticated analysis tool, or just trying to run it.

>If they could even recognize an executable, by file structure, header, etc,
>this still wouldn't work on compressed files "like zip files today", or
>worse, password protected files.

>Telling data from code is impossible.. they're not different things.

That is correct. I'm talking about the protocols that deal with
the arbitrary data. Is the format on the accepted list? Nope, sorry,
doesn't get through the firewall. If you permit arbitrary binary
transfers, they come through with tags that forbid users to change
their type to "executable" or otherwise feed them to something
capable of running programs. Consider it the equivalent of having
your SMTP server stripping out executable attachments or unknown
MIME types, snooping inside gzip and tar and zip files to make sure
they don't contain executables, and so on.

>You're plenty swamped when you hit the T1 (1.54 megabits) or T3
>(45megabits) that your router is hooked up to. Internal traffic will fly,
>just like it does now.. external data will get swamped, just like it does
>now.

Think of lots of fiber optic bundles running straight up to every
business.

> The day the internet starts at the backbone with super high bandwidth
>and trickles down to every single (or even the majority of) end users,
>having less bandwidth, is the day pigs fly.

Someday, a genetic engineer is going to take that as a challenge.
If the guy with the trebuchet in England hasn't already taken it up. :-)

>Check out Snow Crash.. besides some of the basic premise, like the virus
>the book revolves around, NS' idea of hackers, the network, etc, is very
>right on and believable.

Except for the bits when the crash works equally well on computers and
humans, and is capable of frying a human's brain because they're used to
looking at pixelated screens, and when Reason's computer crashes just because
there's Something In The Air... The glossolalia/Sumerian connection
is very cool, but I think it would have made more sense if Stephenson
had made the computer crash be something written by people inspired by
the human brain crash.

>Which brings up another point for me.. jacking in may be fun for the
>simsense, and the ease of use.. but it's certainly not going to be
>required.. your brain will never be faster than a computer, not even
>appreciably faster than your hands when both are compared to the system
>you're going up against.

Agreed.

>You don't hack systems by having a faster processor or faster hands, you
>hack them by being smarter and more informed than the system and it's
>administrators.

And having computer programs that do all the fast-response stuff and
rely on the human component for the important input. That's what an
Image is in Daniel Keys Moran's work.

>>Assume it cuts down on information transfer rates enough that you
>>can't keep up with machines that don't accept this limitation.
>>Think of it as the difference between doing load/store instructions
>>on chip versus going over the bus.

>Doesn't hold water.

Not with modern computing, but I believe it makes sense with my
postulated quantum pulse elements.

>As I mentioned in an earlier post, the fastest machine going for cracking
>DES is not doing it in software, the chips are specifically designed to
>crack DES, and can really not do much of anything else. Hardware will
>always be faster than software.

Once you postulate reconfigurable logic elements, this is not
necessarily true.

>>Bandwidth! If you upload a program it can respond at machine speeds
>>to changing conditions on the target machine. Remember, every
>>foot of distance between the decker and the target machine takes
>>two nanoseconds off the decker's response time.

>Where did that stat come from?

The speed of light. 3.0*10^8 meters per second means 0.3 meters per
nanosecond, which means that light goes a foot in one nanosecond.
That means that assuming the best possible speed for signals
being sent back to the decker, every foot of travel shaves off one
nanosecond on the trip to the deck and one on the return trip.

>> There are existing microprocessors in the
>>modern era that you can destroy through overheating with the right
>>set of instructions, so there's ample precedent[.]

>There are also tons of more processors that don't have this flaw.. just
>like there are existing monitors that it's possible to get "image burn" on
>from leaving the same screen up for too long.. fortunately this just isn't
>true anymore.

I'm postulating that it's an inherent flaw in the postulated quantum
pulse elements. It's a danger, but the postulated performance improvement
is worthwhile to the Shadowrun megacorps.

>It's the same as burning out their software.. geeze even the simplest
>protection scheme on the deck could prevent it. Like a little switch on
>the deck, that when flipped, disables the "write" mode of the deck,
>physically.. sort of like changing the jumper on your motherboard when you
>have to flash a new bios into it. No amount of code is going to overwhelm
>that jumper, and there is no speed penalty for having it in either setting.

This presumes such a jumper can exist. I'm postulating that this is
caused by running code that overheats a portion of the chip. This is
a rationalization for an existing decking system, not an attempt to
create a new and better one.

>If they're just writing to it with garbage, why can't you just replace it
>via code the same way, by writing over it with all the right code?

Once a portion of the chip is burned out, it can't be un-burned.

>At the very least, if some GM insists on using this system of bogosity, I'd
>change the rules around a little to make it just as difficult to hack the
>deck as it would be for that specific program to hack any other system..

A lot of FASA's decking material is bogus; I'm trying to cater to the
group of gamers who are still using FASA's material rather than rolling
their own systems.

> Personally, I'd just physically write protect the important
>parts of my system before making a run, and have any data I download go
>into a write-once media, no seeking or overwriting of data allowed.. if
>some bogus data gets fed into the datastream and I download it, oh well,
>try again, but no erasing what I already have, no way.

My NPC decker always does a memory flush and restore from a read-only
medium after every run, and stores all downloads flagged "do not execute".
(She can always strip the downloads of the "do not execute" flag and
throw copies into an expendable PC if she really wants to...)

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 8
From: Allen Landsidel all@******.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 22:27:42 -0500
At 18:46 12/5/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:

>I'm handwaving a quantum-physical contrivance.

Hehe.. ok.

>Make sure to inform the list when you have it; I've been wishing for
>something better than VR2 to work with for a very long time now...

Will do..

>Only assuming arbitrary amounts of time spent on programming the bunch
>of cheap processors. Consider the difficulty of making an arbitrary
>number of 8086's do the work of one Pentium II. What's going to be
>more expensive?

The pentiums, all the way... very cheap to buy, very easy to program, and
the software only has to be written once, then sold for god knows how
much.. just make sure it's sold for less than a pentium with the same
performance.. you could sell it for a lot less.. thats what venture capital
is for.


>Though you might be coming in every few minutes to move the mouse
>further and hit individual keys on the keyboard in order to make
>progress...

True.. thats why you'd use a mess of them.

>It might be useful for doing architecture diagrams when you're plotting
>out how to construct a system, but I can't see how one would help in
>the actual coding tasks.

The 3d stuff? I agree.

>The real reason for having the simsense 3-D interface is so you can
>have wall-to-wall text windows for editing code, opening up man pages,
>and watching the load graphs for the machines you're using... I'd
>rather have a big 150-degree wraparound screen three feet high with
>200dpi resolution, but the VR interface might be cheaper... :-)

True.. but thats not for hacking/coding.. thats for a sysadmin.. and even
then, you'd just employ a few of them, I'm sure. UUNETs noc looks like
bloody mission control for the space shuttle, and I doubt it'll change any
because of VR.

>The NPC decker I run has an "unreality filter" that reduces
>all the fancy images to wireframes that have diagnostic information
>highlighted...

I'd not even go that far.. just ignore anything that I'm not interested
in.. much like you do now.. go for what you're after, ignore everything
else unless it's directed at you.

>That is correct. I'm talking about the protocols that deal with
>the arbitrary data. Is the format on the accepted list? Nope, sorry,
>doesn't get through the firewall. If you permit arbitrary binary
>transfers, they come through with tags that forbid users to change
>their type to "executable" or otherwise feed them to something
>capable of running programs. Consider it the equivalent of having
>your SMTP server stripping out executable attachments or unknown
>MIME types, snooping inside gzip and tar and zip files to make sure
>they don't contain executables, and so on.

It would work.. but I doubt people would stand for it.. "I can't get
super-funny-happy-face program from my friend!! do something about it!"

Presidents of the company are lusers too you know, and you don't tell them
"no, that will violate security."


>Someday, a genetic engineer is going to take that as a challenge.
>If the guy with the trebuchet in England hasn't already taken it up. :-)

Hehehe.. we'll see. ;)

What will they do though? Add more bandwidth to the backbone everytime
another cilent gets on, so everyone can be using max bandwidth all the time?

>Except for the bits when the crash works equally well on computers and
>humans, and is capable of frying a human's brain because they're used to
>looking at pixelated screens, and when Reason's computer crashes just because
>there's Something In The Air... The glossolalia/Sumerian connection
>is very cool, but I think it would have made more sense if Stephenson
>had made the computer crash be something written by people inspired by
>the human brain crash.

True.. thats the only stuff I don't get.. and don't forget Reason was a
beta.. ;)

>And having computer programs that do all the fast-response stuff and
>rely on the human component for the important input. That's what an
>Image is in Daniel Keys Moran's work.

Cool enough.



>Not with modern computing, but I believe it makes sense with my
>postulated quantum pulse elements.

As for what a quantum pulse is.. we're still in a grey area.. as for why it
would be faster than optical computers using a crystal matrix.. I don't
think it would be.. just smaller.

>Once you postulate reconfigurable logic elements, this is not
>necessarily true.

That's still hardware.. just software reconfiguring hardware.. firmware if
you prefer.. but it's still hardware.. I can see why you might see the
line as blurred, but it still exists..

>The speed of light. 3.0*10^8 meters per second means 0.3 meters per
>nanosecond, which means that light goes a foot in one nanosecond.
>That means that assuming the best possible speed for signals
>being sent back to the decker, every foot of travel shaves off one
>nanosecond on the trip to the deck and one on the return trip.

true.. but I doubt that's much of a factor.. the nanoseconds just start
piling up from your deck to your head, let alone between you and the target
system.. thats why it's measured in milliseconds (ping times).


>I'm postulating that it's an inherent flaw in the postulated quantum
>pulse elements. It's a danger, but the postulated performance improvement
>is worthwhile to the Shadowrun megacorps.

I see.. but I doubt it would exist.. it's an ok postulate, but really not
something I can buy into.. they can manufacture these devices, but not a
way around this problem?

I don't like that..


>This presumes such a jumper can exist. I'm postulating that this is
>caused by running code that overheats a portion of the chip. This is
>a rationalization for an existing decking system, not an attempt to
>create a new and better one.

I know.. but it's just not any more plausable than what you were trying to
rationalize in the first place.. why not just leave it alone?

>Once a portion of the chip is burned out, it can't be un-burned.

I'd think they'd just put a limiter on there so it can't possibly run fast
enough to burn itself out.

>A lot of FASA's decking material is bogus; I'm trying to cater to the
>group of gamers who are still using FASA's material rather than rolling
>their own systems.

I understand that.. just see an endless line of "why" originating from the
original one.. with each explaination just begging more questions.

>My NPC decker always does a memory flush and restore from a read-only
>medium after every run, and stores all downloads flagged "do not execute".
>(She can always strip the downloads of the "do not execute" flag and
>throw copies into an expendable PC if she really wants to...)

True enough.. but the major part of the write-once was so that some
sysadmin couldn't hack your box and overwrite what you downloaded.


-A

"There comes a time when the operation of a machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; not even tacitly take
part, and you have to throw yourself on all the gears and all the levers
and you have to make it stop."

-Mario Savio, founder of the free speech movement.

Commandment XI: Thou shalt not inflict upon me thy useless prattlings, for
I thy God am a busy God.
-Joe Thompsonn
Message no. 9
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 19:59:37 -0800
At 22:27 12/5/99 -0500, Allen Landsidel wrote:
>>Only assuming arbitrary amounts of time spent on programming the bunch
>>of cheap processors. Consider the difficulty of making an arbitrary
>>number of 8086's do the work of one Pentium II. What's going to be
>>more expensive?

>The pentiums, all the way... very cheap to buy, very easy to program, and
>the software only has to be written once, then sold for god knows how
>much.. just make sure it's sold for less than a pentium with the same
>performance.. you could sell it for a lot less.. thats what venture capital
>is for.

But there are far better extant developing tools for making a Pentium
do a job than there are for making an arbitrary number of 8086's
do the same job. Are your venture capitalists going to go for that?

>>The real reason for having the simsense 3-D interface is so you can
>>have wall-to-wall text windows for editing code, opening up man pages,
>>and watching the load graphs for the machines you're using... I'd
>>rather have a big 150-degree wraparound screen three feet high with
>>200dpi resolution, but the VR interface might be cheaper... :-)

>True.. but thats not for hacking/coding.. thats for a sysadmin.. and even
>then, you'd just employ a few of them, I'm sure. UUNETs noc looks like
>bloody mission control for the space shuttle, and I doubt it'll change any
>because of VR.

The line between system administration and coding is blurry. I like
having load graphs up on my desktop when I have the real estate and
they aren't sucking up too much CPU in their own right so I can see
why my compile is taking so long. And don't you find yourself running
out of desktop real estate when working on large coding projects?

>>That is correct. I'm talking about the protocols that deal with
>>the arbitrary data. Is the format on the accepted list? Nope, sorry,
>>doesn't get through the firewall.

>It would work.. but I doubt people would stand for it.. "I can't get
>super-funny-happy-face program from my friend!! do something about it!"

>Presidents of the company are lusers too you know, and you don't tell them
>"no, that will violate security."

If you present them with budget figures showing the different in
corporate productivity between "deckers can break in and hack our
systems" and "our systems are secure", the bottom lines can be
*very* persuasive. Lofwyr is not a luser, and is not going to put
up with his subordinate president/CEO people being lusers, and
everyone else has to compete with Saeder-Krupp.

>>Not with modern computing, but I believe it makes sense with my
>>postulated quantum pulse elements.

>As for what a quantum pulse is.. we're still in a grey area.. as for why it
>would be faster than optical computers using a crystal matrix.. I don't
>think it would be.. just smaller.

I'm not sure it wouldn't be something involving a crystalline matrix
with lots of thread-fine coherent beams shooting through it, possibly
as soliton waves.

>>The speed of light. [snip]

>true.. but I doubt that's much of a factor.. the nanoseconds just start
>piling up from your deck to your head, let alone between you and the target
>system.. thats why it's measured in milliseconds (ping times).

But uploading code to the target system gets a big win in response time
compared to running code on the deck via telemetry.

>>I'm postulating that it's an inherent flaw in the postulated quantum
>>pulse elements. It's a danger, but the postulated performance improvement
>>is worthwhile to the Shadowrun megacorps.

>I see.. but I doubt it would exist.. it's an ok postulate, but really not
>something I can buy into.. they can manufacture these devices, but not a
>way around this problem?

>I don't like that..

It's meant to be something that deckers hate and IC writers love. :-)

>>This presumes such a jumper can exist. I'm postulating that this is
>>caused by running code that overheats a portion of the chip. This is
>>a rationalization for an existing decking system, not an attempt to
>>create a new and better one.

>I know.. but it's just not any more plausable than what you were trying to
>rationalize in the first place.. why not just leave it alone?

I'm trying to keep as much of the default SR setting as I can for
compatibility's sake.

>I'd think they'd just put a limiter on there so it can't possibly run fast
>enough to burn itself out.

It might add too much to the fabrication cost-- after all, the
optimizing compilers for people running *legitimate* software should
catch these things!

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 10
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:01:35 -0800
At 18:35 12/5/99 -0800, Tzeentch wrote:
>> Don't be so offensive, then. If you want to offer an alternative
>> view, go ahead and do it, but don't waste anyone's time complaining
>> about whether mine is implausible or that you don't buy something
>> at all. I'm not selling you any products and I'm not your gamemaster.

>Hmm, well as I stated in my private response I was not trying to "complain"
>about your material. But if you can't take any comments on the logic of even
>fictional technobabble there can be no hope and you should take your
>material off your website since it might provoke others to ask questions as
>well.

If you can't be bothered to offer polite feedback instead of complaints,
you can always not send any mail at all. You can even choose a private
rather than public venue for it if you really feel a need to use
impolite language. This medium may feel like a one-to-one conversation,
but it's equivalent to one being performed on a big overhead screen in a
huge auditorium, and anyone who glances at us can read what we're saying
in closed captions.

>And it's taken how long for semiconductors to reach the size and power and
>cost effectiveness to be embedded in appliances? And why would it be
>advantageous to use the system you postulate (that you say is expensive to
>develop)?

The quantum pulse element technology allows programmers to reconfigure
computers to special purposes. Need to do vector or matrix math
calculation in unit time? Previously O(n) and O(n**2) algorithms
run in constant time as long as n is appropriately sized for the
number of megapulses you have in your system, and for larger
arrays of data you chop a big multiplier off the amount of time
required. For heavy computing applications (as opposed to small
embedded systems), this makes a lot of sense.

Once you have the production lines and design systems in place for
building these devices into computers, it is likely to be cheaper
to adapt the same devices to embedded systems rather than to main
entirely parallel, separate production lines to churn out a different
category of devices.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 11
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:13:18 -0800
On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:46:14 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
writes:
> At 21:00 12/5/99 -0500, Asymmetric wrote:
<SNIP>
> >One of my favorite examples is simsense. I'm a programmer. I'm a
hacker,
> >if such a thing really exists. Know what? You wouldn't catch me
using a
> >3d VR interface to code or hack no matter how bloody neato it looked.

What about how bloody efficient it could make you? I can't really see it
being that much of a step up, however.

> It might be useful for doing architecture diagrams when you're plotting
> out how to construct a system, but I can't see how one would help in
> the actual coding tasks.
<SNIP>

I see it as being useful for coding via dictation. Not dictation in
Dragon Naturally speaking or IBM via Voice sense, but rather a "I think
and the changes are made" sense.

Now, what I don't get are the bonuses for the computer you are using.
Okay, how does using a mainframe make you a better programer than using
your PC? The only thing I can think of is that SR programming relies
heavily on optimization programs and the more processing power, the more
"brains" behind the expert system code optimizer prog. However, that
would result in smaller and faster programs, not shorter programming
times. In SR, if you finish, your program is, for all practical purposes,
the same as every other program of that type that anyone ever finished,
regardless of whether it uses standard UMS iconography or really slick
fractal rendering or somesuch.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Asymmetric all@******.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:16:38 -0500
At 19:59 12/5/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:


>But there are far better extant developing tools for making a Pentium
>do a job than there are for making an arbitrary number of 8086's
>do the same job. Are your venture capitalists going to go for that?

The tools that existed at the time are more than adequate.. any decent ASM
compiler will do.. remember you're not writing applications, just a
thin-layer emulation of instructions inside a virtual machine.

>The line between system administration and coding is blurry. I like
>having load graphs up on my desktop when I have the real estate and
>they aren't sucking up too much CPU in their own right so I can see
>why my compile is taking so long. And don't you find yourself running
>out of desktop real estate when working on large coding projects?

I just run NT for my development, FreeBSD for other stuff.. and on NT the
system load monitor (task manager) minimizes nicely to the system tray.

I usually don't run out of desktop space.. I would like more sometimes, but
at 1280x1024 most things fit fine.. and I'm a coderushin' keyboard using
fool.. I almost never touch the mouse when developing.

>If you present them with budget figures showing the different in
>corporate productivity between "deckers can break in and hack our
>systems" and "our systems are secure", the bottom lines can be
>*very* persuasive. Lofwyr is not a luser, and is not going to put
>up with his subordinate president/CEO people being lusers, and
>everyone else has to compete with Saeder-Krupp.

Well, my real world experience shows this isn't the case.. they could give
a shite about security, and want you to move everything over to an isolated
segment that needs secured.. which is cool.. then they want access to the
secure stuff, which is cool.. then they leave copies of it on their
insecure machines, which is NOT cool.

>I'm not sure it wouldn't be something involving a crystalline matrix
>with lots of thread-fine coherent beams shooting through it, possibly
>as soliton waves.

It was an example of some technology that already exists for holographic
storage.. lasers shine through the matrix and at certain power/color, they
change the properties of the crystal.. a different laser is used to read
the info back out. About as fast as you can get.. limited only by the
speed of the servo controlling the mirror that aims the laser.. want
faster? multiple lasers.

>But uploading code to the target system gets a big win in response time
>compared to running code on the deck via telemetry.

I'm not sure if I follow.. lag from your program to the server, or lag from
you to your program.. it's still lag.. i'd prefer the lag be not between me
and my software, so as soon as it finds out about things, I find out about
them.. and I still don't think it'd be that big of a deal, timewise... all
kinds of other crap besides just the signal speed are slowing you down way
more than the signal speed itself will.

>It's meant to be something that deckers hate and IC writers love. :-)

I thought it was a rationalization about why the system is the way it is.. :P


>I'm trying to keep as much of the default SR setting as I can for
>compatibility's sake.

I read you.. but explaining things with explainations that just ask more
questions doesn't seem to accomplish a whole lot.. if you want to use the
system, just say "it's that way because it's a game, and thats why." Any
attempt to make it sound plausable or reasonable is doomed from the start.


>It might add too much to the fabrication cost-- after all, the
>optimizing compilers for people running *legitimate* software should
>catch these things!

Bah.. I disagree. Thats like saying that the compilers are responsible for
getting around Intels FDIV bug instead of intel fixing the problem..

-A

"There comes a time when the operation of a machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; not even tacitly take
part, and you have to throw yourself on all the gears and all the levers
and you have to make it stop."

-Mario Savio, founder of the free speech movement.

Commandment XI: Thou shalt not inflict upon me thy useless prattlings, for
I thy God am a busy God.
-Joe Thompsonn
Message no. 13
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:18:08 -0800
At 22:13 12/5/99 -0800, dghost@****.com wrote:
>On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 18:46:14 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.org>
>writes:
>> It might be useful for doing architecture diagrams when you're plotting
>> out how to construct a system, but I can't see how one would help in
>> the actual coding tasks.

>I see it as being useful for coding via dictation. Not dictation in
>Dragon Naturally speaking or IBM via Voice sense, but rather a "I think
>and the changes are made" sense.

*That* is what I see an encephalon as being good for. You have an
interface between your short-term memory and the computer! Imagine
focusing your thoughts so an already-declared loop on a given
variable turned up with an appropriate variable name, or having
the manual page for an API call arrive in your memory as if you'd
just read it! I believe in the task pool's effect on computer
work...

>Now, what I don't get are the bonuses for the computer you are using.
>Okay, how does using a mainframe make you a better programer than using
>your PC? The only thing I can think of is that SR programming relies
>heavily on optimization programs and the more processing power, the more
>"brains" behind the expert system code optimizer prog. However, that
>would result in smaller and faster programs, not shorter programming
>times.

Two words: compile time. :-) Ever work on a system where you make
changes to your code, type "make" (or hit the build button), and
settle in for a nice ten-minute session of surfing the web or
reading a good book? Or tried to attach to a large process with
the debugger and end up waiting for several minutes while it pulls
in debugging information for all the libraries? The more memory/processing
power in the PC, the faster the turnaround time on the builds and
debugging, so the faster you can churn out the code.

> In SR, if you finish, your program is, for all practical purposes,
>the same as every other program of that type that anyone ever finished,
>regardless of whether it uses standard UMS iconography or really slick
>fractal rendering or somesuch.

I think that's the optimizer factor you mentioned above.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 14
From: Asymmetric all@******.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:26:28 -0500
At 20:18 12/5/99 -0800, you wrote:


>*That* is what I see an encephalon as being good for. You have an
>interface between your short-term memory and the computer! Imagine
>focusing your thoughts so an already-declared loop on a given
>variable turned up with an appropriate variable name, or having
>the manual page for an API call arrive in your memory as if you'd
>just read it! I believe in the task pool's effect on computer
>work...

Imagine (as happens with the voice software, for different reasons) working
on a nice piece of code and some guy next to you is like "I'm gonna delete
everything!!" and you think "delete everything.. wtf is he talking about?"
without first thinking that little command (whatever it is) to disable the
encephalon?

"delete everything" it hears and FOOF.. oops.

>Two words: compile time. :-) Ever work on a system where you make
>changes to your code, type "make" (or hit the build button), and
>settle in for a nice ten-minute session of surfing the web or
>reading a good book? Or tried to attach to a large process with
>the debugger and end up waiting for several minutes while it pulls
>in debugging information for all the libraries? The more memory/processing
>power in the PC, the faster the turnaround time on the builds and
>debugging, so the faster you can churn out the code.

Hey.. you know, I'll actually buy that one. ;)


-A

"There comes a time when the operation of a machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; not even tacitly take
part, and you have to throw yourself on all the gears and all the levers
and you have to make it stop."

-Mario Savio, founder of the free speech movement.

Commandment XI: Thou shalt not inflict upon me thy useless prattlings, for
I thy God am a busy God.
-Joe Thompsonn
Message no. 15
From: Asymmetric all@******.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:30:08 -0500
At 22:13 12/5/99 -0800, you wrote:

>What about how bloody efficient it could make you? I can't really see it
>being that much of a step up, however.

And how much less efficient, extensable, and more bloated my code would be!

They have the beta of this system already; It's called "Visual Basic."

While it lacks all the 3d stuff, it still comes complete with the rest of
the tinkertoy development kit.


-A

"There comes a time when the operation of a machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; not even tacitly take
part, and you have to throw yourself on all the gears and all the levers
and you have to make it stop."

-Mario Savio, founder of the free speech movement.

Commandment XI: Thou shalt not inflict upon me thy useless prattlings, for
I thy God am a busy God.
-Joe Thompsonn
Message no. 16
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:39:00 -0800
At 23:16 12/5/99 -0500, Asymmetric wrote:
>At 19:59 12/5/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:
>>But there are far better extant developing tools for making a Pentium
>>do a job than there are for making an arbitrary number of 8086's
>>do the same job. Are your venture capitalists going to go for that?
>
>The tools that existed at the time are more than adequate.. any decent ASM
>compiler will do.. remember you're not writing applications, just a
>thin-layer emulation of instructions inside a virtual machine.

Maybe I'm missing something here. The way I see it, your shopping list
is either:
* develop the technology for interconnecting a whole bunch of cheap 8086s
* buy the 8086s and the technology to wire them up together
* create a virtual machine that includes a mechanism for distributing
code written for a linear processor onto processors running in parallel
or
* buy an off-the-shelf Pentium machine.

My eyeball estimate for the top is "millions of dollars" and my eyeball
estimate for the bottom is "thousands" (or less, these days). How do
you see it?

>> And don't you find yourself running
>>out of desktop real estate when working on large coding projects?

>I just run NT for my development, FreeBSD for other stuff.. and on NT the
>system load monitor (task manager) minimizes nicely to the system tray.

I find that if I'm dealing with a couple of UNIX systems (via X windows
on my NT desktop) it helps to keep track of what they're up to, if I can
get a nice small window for the performance monitor.

>I usually don't run out of desktop space.. I would like more sometimes, but
>at 1280x1024 most things fit fine.. and I'm a coderushin' keyboard using
>fool.. I almost never touch the mouse when developing.

I'm an Emacs bigot, and often find myself wishing I could get more
vertical real estate when I've got four separate subwindows on
different files. (I mostly just use the mouse for changing windows
and using the Web...)

>>If you present them with budget figures showing the different in
>>corporate productivity between "deckers can break in and hack our
>>systems" and "our systems are secure", the bottom lines can be
>>*very* persuasive. Lofwyr is not a luser, and is not going to put
>>up with his subordinate president/CEO people being lusers, and
>>everyone else has to compete with Saeder-Krupp.
>
>Well, my real world experience shows this isn't the case.. they could give
>a shite about security, and want you to move everything over to an isolated
>segment that needs secured.. which is cool.. then they want access to the
>secure stuff, which is cool.. then they leave copies of it on their
>insecure machines, which is NOT cool.

Oh, there's a huge amount of that kind of idiocy in the modern world.
If people wanted security, Microsoft Outlook and Internet Explorer
and Word would be dead code because they all have huge gaping
security holes. But we don't have Great Dragons biting the heads
off incompetent executives who allow competitors to steal secrets...
big scaly flap-flaps set a whole new bar for performance...

>>But uploading code to the target system gets a big win in response time
>>compared to running code on the deck via telemetry.

>I'm not sure if I follow.. lag from your program to the server, or lag from
>you to your program.. it's still lag.. i'd prefer the lag be not between me
>and my software, so as soon as it finds out about things, I find out about
>them.. and I still don't think it'd be that big of a deal, timewise... all
>kinds of other crap besides just the signal speed are slowing you down way
>more than the signal speed itself will.

The idea is that you upload code that does all the fast-response work
to the target machine and sends telemetry back to your deck and asks
you what instructions to send the program executing up on the host.
It's distributed processing applied to computer crime. :-)

>>I'm trying to keep as much of the default SR setting as I can for
>>compatibility's sake.

>I read you.. but explaining things with explainations that just ask more
>questions doesn't seem to accomplish a whole lot.. if you want to use the
>system, just say "it's that way because it's a game, and thats why." Any
>attempt to make it sound plausable or reasonable is doomed from the start.

I believe that the system I've come up answers more questions than it
raises. It *does* require the right set of postulates to be declared
first, though, which can certainly be at odds with the late 20th century.

>>It might add too much to the fabrication cost-- after all, the
>>optimizing compilers for people running *legitimate* software should
>>catch these things!

>Bah.. I disagree. Thats like saying that the compilers are responsible for
>getting around Intels FDIV bug instead of intel fixing the problem..

Suppose you could buy a Pentium with the FDIV bug for $300, a Pentium
without the FDIV bug for $900, and the compiler cost the same for either
one and had an optimizer flag for "catch FDIV bugs"? Even if you are a
sensible person who won't take that kind of nonsense, if there's enough
of a market that does, you still have to sell software to them with the
flag turned on...

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 17
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:48:36 -0800
At 23:26 12/5/99 -0500, Asymmetric wrote:
>At 20:18 12/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>*That* is what I see an encephalon as being good for.

>Imagine (as happens with the voice software, for different reasons) working
>on a nice piece of code and some guy next to you is like "I'm gonna delete
>everything!!" and you think "delete everything.. wtf is he talking
about?"
>without first thinking that little command (whatever it is) to disable the
>encephalon?
>
>"delete everything" it hears and FOOF.. oops.

I'm presuming that there's a certain amount of effort of will involved
there. If the encephalon triggered on every surface thought, it would
be useless to any programmers who weren't highly trained in meditative
focus. You would need hardware capable of distinguishing a driver
contemplating slamming on the brakes to make that tailgater in the
sportscar smash into your 1970 Plymouth Fury 3 and formulating the
order to stomp on the brake pedal. I believe that this could be
neurologically distinguished, but it would be a nontrivial part of
the research effort for making a usable encephalon.

Another fun encephalon trick for people who enjoy etymology: wander
around with a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary in your datajack
and use your extra processing time to look up the origins of words
people use in conversation while waiting for them to say what they're
trying to say.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 18
From: Allen Landsidel all@******.net
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:54:58 -0500
At 20:39 12/5/99 -0800, you wrote:


>Maybe I'm missing something here. The way I see it, your shopping list
>is either:
> * develop the technology for interconnecting a whole bunch of cheap 8086s
> * buy the 8086s and the technology to wire them up together
> * create a virtual machine that includes a mechanism for distributing
> code written for a linear processor onto processors running in parallel
>or
> * buy an off-the-shelf Pentium machine.
>
>My eyeball estimate for the top is "millions of dollars" and my eyeball
>estimate for the bottom is "thousands" (or less, these days). How do
>you see it?

I see it as a one time cost of susbstantially less than "millions of
dollars", and then selling the complete systems for even less than the
complete pentiums cost.. not every single person redesigning the thing from
scratch.

If it had equal or better performance, and cost lest, people would buy
it... this is the core idea behind distributed computing, RAID, etc.. more
smaller is better than less larger. better from an expense standpoint, not
from every concievable standpoint.


>I find that if I'm dealing with a couple of UNIX systems (via X windows
>on my NT desktop) it helps to keep track of what they're up to, if I can
>get a nice small window for the performance monitor.

I can see that.. I just have two boxes in my cubicle for just that purpose. ;)

>I'm an Emacs bigot, and often find myself wishing I could get more
>vertical real estate when I've got four separate subwindows on
>different files. (I mostly just use the mouse for changing windows
>and using the Web...)

Just for a quick question.. what xwm do you use? Also.. these problems can
be solved by multiple monitors, whatever.. I mean, you've admitted, compile
time can be a drag sometimes.. now do it on some machine bogged down with
rendering you neat little 3d development environment, which will probably
end up looking like an office with screens all over the place anyway. :P

>Oh, there's a huge amount of that kind of idiocy in the modern world.
>If people wanted security, Microsoft Outlook and Internet Explorer
>and Word would be dead code because they all have huge gaping
>security holes. But we don't have Great Dragons biting the heads
>off incompetent executives who allow competitors to steal secrets...
>big scaly flap-flaps set a whole new bar for performance...

Heh.. I suppose.. but then, if some corp president borks up and gets a file
stolen, you going to tell me the guys whos salaries he pays for security
are going to bite his head off? Not likely.

>The idea is that you upload code that does all the fast-response work
>to the target machine and sends telemetry back to your deck and asks
>you what instructions to send the program executing up on the host.
>It's distributed processing applied to computer crime. :-)

I see what you're saying.. but my problem stays the same.. lag between the
machine running it's code against the server, or lag between recieving and
responding to the telemetry.. same problem really.

>I believe that the system I've come up answers more questions than it
>raises. It *does* require the right set of postulates to be declared
>first, though, which can certainly be at odds with the late 20th century.

I dunno.. depends on how much your target audience knows I guess.. It still
raises a lot of questions for me, anyway.. I'm still going to trudge along
with a new system.

>Suppose you could buy a Pentium with the FDIV bug for $300, a Pentium
>without the FDIV bug for $900, and the compiler cost the same for either
>one and had an optimizer flag for "catch FDIV bugs"? Even if you are a
>sensible person who won't take that kind of nonsense, if there's enough
>of a market that does, you still have to sell software to them with the
>flag turned on...

That doesn't change responsibility and embarassment.. Intel isn't going to
let it slide because there is a software workaround thats slow as hell
(which it was..)

I think the same holds true.. they don't want a reputation for releasing
buggy products and then not fixing them.. look at all the bad press MS gets
for that.. they may be the giant, but only because they really really know
how to market.. which is a lot of the game right there, but plenty of
people don't like to use their stuff.

(The other thing being their stuff isn't nearly as bad as the bandwagon
press would have you believe, IMHO. Yeah, IE has some bugs.. yeah there
are some security problems.. but ever heard of sendmail? come on. ;) )

-A

"There comes a time when the operation of a machine becomes so odious,
makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part; not even tacitly take
part, and you have to throw yourself on all the gears and all the levers
and you have to make it stop."

-Mario Savio, founder of the free speech movement.

Commandment XI: Thou shalt not inflict upon me thy useless prattlings, for
I thy God am a busy God.
-Joe Thompsonn
Message no. 19
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:39:55 -0800
At 23:54 12/5/99 -0500, Allen Landsidel wrote:
>I see it as a one time cost of susbstantially less than "millions of
>dollars", and then selling the complete systems for even less than the
>complete pentiums cost.. not every single person redesigning the thing from
>scratch.

>If it had equal or better performance, and cost lest, people would buy
>it... this is the core idea behind distributed computing, RAID, etc.. more
>smaller is better than less larger. better from an expense standpoint, not
>from every concievable standpoint.

I disagree on the one-time cost, but agree on the basic principle of
distributed systems. I think there is a certain amount of baseline
where it's better to just get the bigger processor... otherwise
things like the Connection Machine would have really taken off.

>>I'm an Emacs bigot, and often find myself wishing I could get more
>>vertical real estate when I've got four separate subwindows on
>>different files. (I mostly just use the mouse for changing windows
>>and using the Web...)

>Just for a quick question.. what xwm do you use?

twm under pure X, X-Win32 when I'm using NT as my desktop.

> Also.. these problems can
>be solved by multiple monitors, whatever.. I mean, you've admitted, compile
>time can be a drag sometimes.. now do it on some machine bogged down with
>rendering you neat little 3d development environment, which will probably
>end up looking like an office with screens all over the place anyway. :P

Yeah. I think the wraparound 2D screen screen is all I really need.

>Heh.. I suppose.. but then, if some corp president borks up and gets a file
>stolen, you going to tell me the guys whos salaries he pays for security
>are going to bite his head off? Not likely.

If it makes enough of a difference in the bottom line, Lofwyr will do
just that to people. Saeder-Krupp is a place you *don't* want to
screw up.

>>The idea is that you upload code that does all the fast-response work
>>to the target machine and sends telemetry back to your deck and asks
>>you what instructions to send the program executing up on the host.
>>It's distributed processing applied to computer crime. :-)

>I see what you're saying.. but my problem stays the same.. lag between the
>machine running it's code against the server, or lag between recieving and
>responding to the telemetry.. same problem really.

The lag will still be a problem, but at least you have *something*
responding when it's on the far end, even if it's only with a current
set of preprogrammed responses.

>I dunno.. depends on how much your target audience knows I guess.. It still
>raises a lot of questions for me, anyway.. I'm still going to trudge along
>with a new system.

Cool. I'm looking forward to your results.

>> Even if you are a
>>sensible person who won't take that kind of nonsense, if there's enough
>>of a market that does, you still have to sell software to them with the
>>flag turned on...
>
>That doesn't change responsibility and embarassment.. Intel isn't going to
>let it slide because there is a software workaround thats slow as hell
>(which it was..)

If the software workaround only takes extra time at compile time rather
than run time and the hardware workaround is a constant multiplier
on the price rather than something that's just a goof like the FDIV,
though, I think it becomes plausible.

>(The other thing being their stuff isn't nearly as bad as the bandwagon
>press would have you believe, IMHO. Yeah, IE has some bugs.. yeah there
>are some security problems.. but ever heard of sendmail? come on. ;) )

Sendmail has its problems... but the ability to issue arbitrary
OLE scripting commands through IE 5.0 is a doozy. Not to mention the
macro viruses that work between Word and Outlook. I tend to use
Eudora and Netscape.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%
%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%
Message no. 20
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:54:26 -0800
On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:30:08 -0500 Asymmetric <all@******.net> writes:
> At 22:13 12/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >What about how bloody efficient it could make you? I can't really see
it
> >being that much of a step up, however.

> And how much less efficient, extensable, and more bloated my code
> would be!
>
> They have the beta of this system already; It's called "Visual Basic."

I'm going to start a class on this next semmester. It's required for my
major. I wish I could get back to assembly ... assembly rules! :)

> While it lacks all the 3d stuff, it still comes complete with the rest
of
> the tinkertoy development kit.

Wait. I'm confused. Are you saying "what's the point of VR apps?" or
"what's the point of VR app development?"? I was answering "what's the
point of VR app development" (developing apps in a VR setting, not
developing VR apps :).

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 21
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:04:40 -0800
On Sun, 05 Dec 1999 23:16:38 -0500 Asymmetric <all@******.net> writes:
> At 19:59 12/5/99 -0800, Max Rible wrote:
<SNIP>
> And don't you find yourself running
> >out of desktop real estate when working on large coding projects?

> I just run NT for my development, FreeBSD for other stuff.. and on
> NT the
> system load monitor (task manager) minimizes nicely to the system
> tray.
>
> I usually don't run out of desktop space.. I would like more sometimes,
but
> at 1280x1024 most things fit fine..

I may not have worked on large enough coding projects, but I never look
at more than 2 windows at a time and so never have any real desktop space
problems.

> and I'm a coderushin' keyboard using
> fool.. I almost never touch the mouse when developing.

Ever know what to type in the menu so well that you don't even give the
menu a chance to pop-up let alone drill down before you've hit all the
keys? :)

<SNIP>
> >But uploading code to the target system gets a big win in response
time
> >compared to running code on the deck via telemetry.
>
> I'm not sure if I follow.. lag from your program to the server, or lag
from
> you to your program.. it's still lag.. i'd prefer the lag be not
between me
> and my software, so as soon as it finds out about things, I find out
about
> them.. and I still don't think it'd be that big of a deal, timewise...
all
> kinds of other crap besides just the signal speed are slowing you down
way
> more than the signal speed itself will.
<SNIP>

On the one hand, if it's on the server, the program can run at optimal
speed until it needs input from you. (I suspect it will interface with
the server more than with you.)

On the other hand, if it's on the server, what's to prevent some outside
source from usurping your prog and feed you crap? "Oh look! suddenly
you're 'hacking' a virtual machine while the Star is on the way to your
door." :)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Message no. 22
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:41:38 -0600 (CST)
Yesterday, Asymmetric spoke on Re: The Matrix: Feedback on existing material:

> "delete everything" it hears and FOOF.. oops.

Then, you think, "Undo" :PP!

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984

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