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Message no. 1
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: The matrix (movie) [definate spoilers, not so viscous review]
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:59:03 -0500
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:> EXCUSE ME? "and some cold fusion"- what the FUCK do they need the
:> matrix
:> (as a power source) for, if they have cold fusion? And the "fead the
dead
:> to the living" doesn't work; even if you fead the cats to the rats, and
the
:> rats to the cats, you don't get the catskins for nothing. Producing food
:> for the humans would, by the laws of thermodynamics, consume more energy
:> than
:> they could get out of them.
:>
:Agreed. The first thing that ran through my mind when I saw that for
:the first time was "OK, so what's the *real* reason?". It's so
:*obviously* a lie that anybody with any technical background would
:notice. There are a couple of points that I found:
:1) Remember the bit about Agent Smith saying that once Zion had been
:destroyed that there would be no need for him to remain? Why not, if
:this is all just to control humans? Perhaps if Zion is destroyed, they
:won't *need* the humans?
:2) Agent Smith makes reference as to how whole "crops" were lost when
:they tried for utopia.


I think the "Destroy Zion" thing was just because there would be no more
threat of outside hackers- if a person caused trouble from INSIDE the
matrix, the machines could just kill him, as opposed to having to hunt them
down.
The "crops" were shown- they harvest people and use them for energy,
supposedly. Not an unlikely refrence, if the Sentianl knew about this
paractice.
I certainly toyed with the idea that there was some further truth being
hidden from the viewers (somebody contolling the machines, or even that the
machines were themselves living vitual lives), but the movie just didn't go
in that dirrection, as I saw it.

:Uh huh. Let me see if I can guess what you mean:
:Blade Runner - machines in human form, or are you going for the
:inversion of the machines hunting a pocket of human rebels vs. humans
:hunting a pocket of "rebel" replicants?
:Terminator - an enemy that seems virtually invulnerable
:Clockwork Orange - err, violence?
:Haven't seen Brazil or 5th Element, so I shouldn't comment.
:
:Is that about right?


Naw, I figured it this way:
Blade Runner- Look and feel (to a limited extent), plus "who is my creator,
and how can I kill him and get control of my destiny?". There is also the
question of whether any persons memories are realy real- and if memories are
not, why should the present be?
Treminator- Man creates machine that takes over world and eleminates /
enslaves man. Classic (butchered) Frankenstien.
Clockwork Orange- is there such a thing as free will, and is loosing it
really so bad, if it improves the quality of life?
Brazil- its all one big mindfuck, or is it?
5th element- there is the one perfect waepon / being, but they need love to
fulfill that destiny.

Not that the fact that you can draw these parallels is BAD- the issues
are ones ubiquitous to sci-fi and, especially cyberpunk and its progenitors.
But I don't think the blending of so many of those concepts was well
handled, given that the POINT of the movie seemed to be showing kick ass
kung fu heroes in sexy black leather, who were going to put a stop to some
really bad, but kinda silly, exploitation of the human race.
Personally, I wish they had never showed us who was in charge of the
matrix, or had Morpheous advance any theory as to why it existed.

Mongoose
Message no. 2
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: The matrix (movie) [definate spoilers, not so viscous review]
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:02:12 -0400
Mongoose wrote:
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[snip]
> :1) Remember the bit about Agent Smith saying that once Zion had been
> :destroyed that there would be no need for him to remain? Why not, if
> :this is all just to control humans? Perhaps if Zion is destroyed, they
> :won't *need* the humans?
> :2) Agent Smith makes reference as to how whole "crops" were lost when
> :they tried for utopia.
>
> I think the "Destroy Zion" thing was just because there would be no
> more
> threat of outside hackers- if a person caused trouble from INSIDE the
> matrix, the machines could just kill him, as opposed to having to hunt
> them
> down.
>
You'd still need Agents for that, though. They're essentially the
sysadmins of the Matrix. Perhaps Agent Smith was specifically tasked
to destroy Zion and others would handle the policing, but...

> The "crops" were shown- they harvest people and use them for energy,
> supposedly. Not an unlikely refrence, if the Sentianl knew about this
> paractice.
>
Sentinal? The squids were the sentinals. Are you referring to the
Agent? If so, I believe that he was either a) toeing the party line
(*DON'T* tell the humans why we need them), b) meant something else
entirely or c) didn't know the truth himself.

> I certainly toyed with the idea that there was some further truth
> being
> hidden from the viewers (somebody contolling the machines, or even that
> the
> machines were themselves living vitual lives), but the movie just didn't
> go
> in that dirrection, as I saw it.
>
I expect that the scriptwriter just screwed up that point. It's not
a breaker though, IMO. Just compare it to Star Trek... ;-)

> :Uh huh. Let me see if I can guess what you mean:
[snip very superficial comparisons ;-) ]
> :Is that about right?
>
> Naw, I figured it this way:
[snip deeper comparisons of overall themes/"morals-of-the-story"]

Well, I will make the (obvious, yes) statement that these *have* all
been done before, repeatedly, and in varying combinations. Each of
those in turn is a combination of variations of other works. Nothing
is new. Some things, however, *are* different. Matrix manages that,
at least.

While I have seen the concept itself played out several times (ie, man
learns of and ascends to higher reality), the Matrix presented the
story in an entertaining way - without resorting to much of the idiotic
technobabble that any "high-tech" movie tosses in to impress people
(and which they inevitably get totally, laughably, wrong).

> Not that the fact that you can draw these parallels is BAD- the issues
> are ones ubiquitous to sci-fi and, especially cyberpunk and its
> progenitors.
> But I don't think the blending of so many of those concepts was well
> handled, given that the POINT of the movie seemed to be showing kick ass
> kung fu heroes in sexy black leather, who were going to put a stop to some
> really bad, but kinda silly, exploitation of the human race.
>
The "kinda silly" was just a minor screw-up. There are all sorts of
viable alternatives that don't alter the plot. It's just background,
after all.

> Personally, I wish they had never showed us who was in charge of the
> matrix, or had Morpheous advance any theory as to why it existed.
>
I'd have preferred Morpheus to have advanced a theory *as* a theory,
instead of presenting it as fact. That way we would be laughing at
a character instead of the screenwriter. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 3
From: Kevin Langevin kevinl@******.com
Subject: The matrix (movie) [definate spoilers, not so viscous review]
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:52:27 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ojaste,James [NCR] [mailto:James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA]
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 1999 12:02 PM
> To: 'shadowrn@*********.org'
> Subject: RE: The matrix (movie) [definate spoilers, not so viscous
> review]
>
>
> Mongoose wrote:
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> [snip]
> You'd still need Agents for that, though. They're essentially the
> sysadmins of the Matrix. Perhaps Agent Smith was specifically tasked
> to destroy Zion and others would handle the policing, but...
> Sentinal? The squids were the sentinals. Are you referring to the
> Agent? If so, I believe that he was either a) toeing the party line
> (*DON'T* tell the humans why we need them), b) meant something else
> entirely or c) didn't know the truth himself.

Actually, destroying Zion would destroy the only computer system not under
Matrix control, therefore crippling the last "human" city, and in theory
destroying the last of the human resistance of the AIs. This would tend to
imply that there WOULDN'T be a need for Agents, because there wouldn't be
anyone left to "free" matrix-bound humans.

-Kev
Message no. 4
From: Kelson kelson13@***********.com
Subject: The matrix (movie) [definate spoilers, not so viscous review]
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:32:20 -0800
On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:52:27 Kevin Langevin wrote:

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[snip]

>Actually, destroying Zion would destroy the only computer system not under
>Matrix control, therefore crippling the last "human" city, and in theory
>destroying the last of the human resistance of the AIs. This would tend to
>imply that there WOULDN'T be a need for Agents, because there wouldn't be
>anyone left to "free" matrix-bound humans.

Exactly. This is what Agent Smith states in the movie. He wants out of the Matrix and
the only way he can think to do so is to destroy Zion so the human resistance is no more.
No resistance = no need for agents.

>-Kev

Justin


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