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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:51:31 -0400
This is a little something I've been working on.
This is the first version of the Munchkin Manual, and I'm looking for input
to make it more sueful as a serious tool for helping GM's educate and
eliminate munchkins.

I anticipate your input.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end." - Semisonic

----------

THE MUNCHKIN MANUAL VERSION 1.0

By Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.com>
(Modeled after and inspired by Christian Steenhorst’s
<bj169@*******.Carleton.CA>
Mind’s Eye Theater Twink FAQ)

CONTENTS: I: INTRODUCTION: WHAT IS A MUNCHKIN?
II: HOW TO RECONIZE A MUNCHKIN
III: HOW TO DEAL WITH MUNCHKINS
IV: HOW TO STOP BEING A MUNCHKIN
V: MUNCHKIN STORIES

I: INTRODUCTION: WHAT IS A MUNCHKIN?

If you are reading this manual, you are either looking for a good laugh,
looking
for helpful hints, or reading it because somebody handed it to you without
any
explanation.

The purpose of this manual is to provide a guide to weary players of the
phenomenal RPG known as Shadowrun put out by FASA. It is a role-playing
game in which players take on the role of shadowy soldiers of fortune in
the
Awakened world of the 2060’s.Unfortunately, not all of these are good
players
and that is what this manual is all about.

A munchkin can be one of many things. A munchkin is first and foremost a
cheater. A munchkin can be someone who tries to find a way around nasty
character flaws. A munchkin can be someone who simply does not know how to
play and thinks he does.

The purpose of this manual is to provide a guide to finding, educating, and
hopefully helping these munchkins escape the easy trap of munchkinhood.

II: HOW TO RECONIZE A MUNCHKIN

1. The Cheater

The Cheater is typically a very charismatic individual. They are typically
used to
being the senior player and usually wish to keep it that way. One way to
recognize a cheater is that he rarely talks about what his character is
doing. This
is because he doesn't want anyone checking up on him.

There are a few ways to cheat. the first way is to go with the chaos. In
this
manner, munchkins do not spend karma when going for re-rolls, use Skills
and
Gear that they don't have, and generally act in the interest of their own
survival,
rather than the story.

Another way to cheat is to spend karma points that you don't have.
Character A
and Character B start out at the same power level but Character B somehow
ends
up being 20 points ahead of Character A after 4 months. Something is
wrong.

Lying to a newbie is not a nice thing to do. munchkins that are well-read
in the
ways of the game will sometimes try to pull the wool over the eyes of less
experienced players and GMs. These people somehow manage to get away with
literally anything in the name of warping or outright changing the rules.

Then there are the players that conveniently ignore the rules. A character
is
supposed to take drain and doesn't. Another takes wounds that should take
4
weeks to heal and is fine next session. Another ignores target number
modifiers
for wounds And yet another conveniently forgets to enact his Flaws. This is
usually to preserve the character's existence, and denotes a cowardly
player who
is a little wee bit too attached to his character.

The worst amongst all of them all is the MetaGamer. MetaGaming is typified
by a
player who hears something out of game that his character would obviously
not
know and brings it into the game through no role-playing whatsoever. Among
these are players that react to threats that they should ignore, players
that spread
information that they shouldn't know, or when a character displays vast
amounts
of knowledge about the current opponent, certain items, or other characters
(or
similar inappropriate knowledge).

2. The Rules Manipulators.

There are plenty of ways to munchkin within the rules. Amongst these
players
are the Min-Maxers, the Know-It-Alls, the Probability Enforcers, and the
Rules
Warpers.

Min-Maxers are those than engage in Min-Maxing. A Min-Maxed character is
one that is astoundingly weak in one area in order to put the points into
one other
area. For example a player wants to make a Street Samurai because he wants
to
kick some butt. So, he takes many almost no points in mental attributes
except
Intelligence for the Reaction bonus, no social skills and dumps the rest of
his
points into Firearms and Combat skills. Any munchkin that makes a character
vulnerable in one area to make it powerful in another is a Min-Maxer.

Know-It-Alls are players that are well-read in all the wonders of the Sixth
World
and insist on putting it all into one character sheet. This gives GMs a
headache.
These are the players that are not satisfied playing an ordinary character
and must
play something so extraordinary that they think they're going to
"wow-em-all" so
to speak.

Like the Demolition expert with a Panther Assault Cannon, Barret Sniper
Rifle
and Wired Reflexes III, or the Shapeshifter Combat Mage whose entire
concept is
that he's got Regeneration and takes Physical Drain from spells with a
Force
higher than his Magic rating.

Probability Enforcers are the players that insist that whatever they want,
no matter
how outlandish is entirely possible (and sometimes have a great whopping
heap
of reasons why). These are the players that want to convince you that it's
entirely
possible that their street punk could have learned Gunnery from the local
VA.
That it's entirely possible that the great assassin character could have
easily come
across a weapon banned by the UN. Yes, these things are entirely possible.
But
just remember, by Chaos theory, there is a mathematical possibility for
literally
anything. It's up to the GM to tell a munchkin that what he wants is so
unlikely
that he should not have it.

The Rules Warpers are the players that want to make a given Skill,
Attribute,
Spell, or Physad Ability do something that it obviously cannot do and was
never
meant to do. Like the player that, under the basis that it raises your
Charisma,
wants to use Tailored Pheromones for summoning Spirits.. Or the player who
wants to default to Firearms for an Athletics test. Or even the player that
insists
that he can fire his light pistol with enough accuracy that he can fire
through the
Juggernauts eye, into the brain and kill the beast with one shot.

3. Power Gamers

Power Gamers are a type of munchkin all their own. They're not Cheaters
and not
Rules Manipulators (though they may use these strategies). Power Gamers are
players that are only interested in gaining personal power for their
characters.
These are the munchkins that don't think they're going to be satisfied
unless
they're playing gods. Some players have declined to play given games
because
the GMs refused to let them play mega-powerful characters.

A variant of the power gamer is the Wound Wailer. These munchkins become so
attached to their character that any damage is seen as a personal affront.
Even a
Light Wound becomes a major trauma to these players. While no one likes
having
their character mauled in combat, a role-player takes this in stride,
accepting that
Shadowrunners live dangerous lives. A Wound Wailer on the other hand is
incapable of believing that any harm should ever come to his beloved PC.

4. Other Variations

Some categories of munchkin depend entirely on the player. These player
types
are not munchkinous by themselves, but can rapidly become so.

The Loony is the player who always looks for the comedy in a game. No
matter
how perilous the run, this player seems to find something to laugh at.
While a
little comedy can be enjoyable for the game. Turning EVERY encounter into a
chance to do a stand-up routine is too much. Building a character that has
no
other purpose in the game, other than to cause a commotion is simply
munchkinous.

The Evil Git is the player who has ulterior motives for everything. Every
piece of
gear he carries, every skill is devoted to plotting and detecting hidden
plots within
the group. No matter what type of character he is playing, the Evil Git is
constantly observing the other PC’s and passing secret notes to the GM.
Again,
when this type of intrigue makes sense in the game it is commendable,
however,
when it is the character’s sole reason for existence, and is done just to
make the
other player uncomfortable, it is munchkinhood in it’s purest form.

III: HOW TO DEAL WITH MUNCHKINS

Unfortunately, there are no proven methods for dealing with munchkins.
Anything put forth in this part of the manual is simply theory,
speculation, and my
own biased opinion.

The Enforcer method involves being a dictatorial GM and severely limiting
what
a player can and can not do. This usually involves setting stifling limits
on all the
players because of a munchkin minority. Unfortunately if it comes to this,
then
something must be done! Past anti-munchkin strategies have included
limiting
certain types of cyberware, some skills, modifying Drain codes and limiting
how
a player may spend karma, enforcing drastic character makeovers and so on.
Keeping the players on a tight leash makes a lot of them angry, but it does
cut
down on the munchkining.

A more subtle approach is to sit the munchkin in question down and calmly
explain to them what they're doing wrong. Be wary, being accused of
munchkining will usually cause a player to go on the defensive very quickly
as
many munchkins are not even aware that they're munchkining. Use calm,
diplomatic reason in your argument. Tell them what you don't like and why
and
how you can go about fixing the problem. Make sure they know it's not a
personal attack. If the problem persists then be more firm, subtly let
them know
that they're playing on borrowed time if they keep it up.

Again, Unfortunately, the most current and popular method is Ostracizim.
In
this a circle of people that consider themselves to be superior players/GMs
get
together and exclude those players/GMs that they deem inferior by means of
cutting conversation. This forms an informal bond between superior players
and
GMs, and forces the munchkins to gather together in their own games. But
this
method leaves one half of the games being good and one half being piss
poor.
More diplomacy is called for in situations like this. Unfortunately,
munchkins
tend to be thick-headed and usually won't listen to reason.

IV: HOW TO STOP BEING A MUNCHKIN

CHARACTER

By now some of you may have realized that you fit the description of one
(or
more) of these munchkin types. The first step into creating a completely
munchkin-free character is to think about what you want to play before
character
creation. Before you ever write down anything to do with an actual
character
sheet, think about who your character is, what he's like, how he thinks,
think up
an entire background days in advance before actual character creation.
This way
you can get inside your character's head and plan out in advance what
Attributes,
Skills, Cyberware, Edges and Flaws the character should have.

To make a truly interesting character, the theme of the character should be
some
sort of personality that you personally find interesting. Something that
makes you
want to act. Never make a character on the basis of being really good at
an ability
or having a really cool combination of powers and cyberware and expect that
character to be fun to play in the long run. An interesting concept will
lend
endurance to the playability of the character.

If you're having trouble thinking of a good character concept, then there
could be
one of several problems. One is that you simply have an imagination block
and
need some time to think about it. No problem. the other problem could be
that
you really don't want to play at all. It could be the reason you can't
think of a
character is because you're too busy thinking 'Why are you making me play
this
stupid game?!'. If you don't want to play, then don't! There's no
obligation to
play. And if you do play when you don't want to you'll just be bored out
of your
skull for an evening when you could be doing something much more
interesting.
An involuntary character will usually end up being not only heavily
munchkined,
but badly played.

ATTRIBUTES

If you have thought of a really cool character concept that has you pacing
around
the room in frothing anticipation, then welcome to the beginning of your
munchkin-free character! the first step is Attributes. Attributes describe
who your
character is; how physically capable, how socially interactive; and how he
thinks.
Choose these on the basis of your background! If you character has spent a
majority of him life as a nerdy scientist then by god don't take physical
as your
primary category. And never EVER choose your primary category on the basis
of
your character's gear or powers.

SKILLS

Again, based on the concept you conceived earlier choose appropriate
skills.
Never take skills in an attempt to make your character last longer. Only
take
Unarmed Combat if your conceptual character is good at fighting, don't take
Armed Combat on the basis of avoiding damage, don't take inappropriate
skills.
Choose skills that enhance your CONCEPT’S strengths, not simply your
character’s ability to take or dish out damage.

EXTRAS

Now the fun begins. Extras are the gear, spells, and powers that give you
a leg up
on the competition. But once again, choose your extras wisely! Take a look
back
to your original concept and then choose from your available extras. If
your
concept is a noble samurai, don’t make him a physad just to take Enhanced
Armed Combat! Even if he is a physad does his background allow for him to
have that power? Take a step back and question whether or not your
character
would actually want to learn it. He might, he might not, just think about
it.

EDGES & FLAWS

With the introduction of the SR Companion, munchkins were given new and
exciting ways to tweak a character with the introduction of Edges and
Flaws.
Looking back on your original concept, decide what Flaws would best suit
your
character before even thinking about Edges. Your concept should make the
decisions on its own. And ONLY take Flaws if they are appropriate to your
character. Remember, you WILL have to enact your Flaws in the course of
role-playing. Otherwise you're being a munchkin.

Common munchkin Merits & Flaws are simply those that are normally taken by
munchkins for various reasons. Common munchkin Flaws are Flaws that the
munchkin either thinks will be able to slip through without anyone really
noticing
or Flaws that the munchkin warps to somehow be a Edge. Common munchkin
Edges are Edges that make the character invincible in one way or another.
In
either case Edges & Flaws that are taken over and over again by countless
characters add tedium to the game.

COMMON MUNCHKIN FLAWS: Allergy - Uncommon substance (reeeeallly
uncommon substance, like Polonium),Vindictive, Uncouth, Combat Monster
(used as an Edge), Distinctive Style.

COMMON MUNCHKIN EDGES: Lightning Reflexes, Combat Skill Affinity.

Unless you wish to be labeled a munchkin, do not take these Edges or Flaws
unless you have a really good reason.

PRE-GAME WARM-UP

Assuming you've got your character approved, now comes the time before the
game called "getting into character". This involves getting inside your
character's
head, feeling him, understanding him and so on. One good way to get into
character is by choosing the right music to listen to. A corporate hitman
might
enjoy the passionate melodies of Beethoven. A street-punk might enjoy the
rebellious sounds of Prodigy. A twisted trog might get into some AC/DC.
Figure
out what works for you and play it.

Other ways to get inside your character’s head include watching movies, or
reading books about an appropriate topic. Playing a merc? Check out an
issue of
Soldier of Fortune. Hermetic Mage? Have you thumbed through Awakenings
lately? Rough and ready ganger? Rent Boyz in da Hood.

Accents can make a world of difference if done correctly, so it doesn’t
hurt to
practice. If you’re playing an London native, watch a few episodes of Monty
Python, and try the accents for yourself. Playing a backwoods redneck?
Watch the
Nashville Network.

OK, that last part was a joke. I’m sorry. You get the point though.
Anything that
helps you get a handle on your character’s personality, his mannerisms and
style
will help you make the change from munchkin to role-player.

GAME TIME!

At the game, the most important things to do are avoid all the bad things
listed in
this manual and to stay in-game! Actually, you don't have to stay in-game,
but if
you choose to go out-of-game, don't drag others with you.

Things to avoid are (obviously) munchkining and frequent visits out of
character
comments. Don't hold up a scene by explaining why your character is doing
something, just do it! Don't constantly ask questions out-of-game, and for
pete's
sake don't argue with the GM when they're trying to keep things running
smoothly!

One more thing to remember when you're in the middle of the game is that as
a
role-player you should have NO SHAME. If someone uses Control Thoughts on
your character to make you do something really ridiculous, DO IT! Don't
just
pout and complain and give the whole plot away. If you’re forced to shoot
the
other PC’s, do it with zest! Make those rotten jerks pay! Nobody likes a
player
that’s too proud of himself to go along with a plot just because it’s
turned nasty.
Just saying that your character is doing something isn't enough. Your good
role-playing will encourage others to role-play well.

If you have your character in your head, and you have the confidence to act
out
your character's impulses then you should do just fine and maybe win the
approval of other players.

PART VI: MUNCHKIN STORIES

In this section we explore actual munchkin stories. these stories are fact
and
not speculation. The names of the players have been changed not only to
protect
them, but to protect me. ;-) Some fact have been altered for humor.

1. Player Alpha submitted a character to a game. Then after getting it
back said that he forgot to add a few things. The next time the GM saw
the character sheet that character had racial maximums for every
attribute, several bonded Fire Elementals, a Force 10 (!?!) Power Focus,
and several hundred thousand nuyen.

2. Player Bravo boasted to player Charlie how good he is at min-maxing.
How he knows all the tricks and makes it a point to make sure all the
characters he makes are min-maxed as to get the most points available.
Bravo then proceeded to “help” Charlie make a new character that had no
useful skills other than Thrown Weapons. When Charlie was unable to
damage the car they team was chasing because he was armed with nothing
but thrown weapons the run came to an abrupt stop.

3. Player Delta was caught by Lone Star during a Shadowrun. Upon being
ordered to lay down his weapons by the officers, he proceeded to tell the
police to back off or they’d be in trouble. After being confronted by the
GM after the game, Delta revealed that he knew the police were only
armed with heavy pistols, and he was sure that he had enough armor to
stop them.

4. Player Epsilon was on a run in a volcanic area. Boiling hot mud had a
random chance of splashing onto a PC and causing severe burns. When
the random roll revealed that Epsilon had been hit, causing burns that
would surely “burn off all his skin” the player quickly shouted. “I don’t
have any skin!” and attempted to justify his cyber augmentation as a
reason for him to avoid taking damage.
Message no. 2
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:39:41 -0400
Cute Tinner... Really Cute :]

YOu know the best part about this? I know EVERY one of the players that
this is targeted at (Sure, it's a general document for everyone, but we
have a large variety of players around here, and quite a few of them are
obnoxious twits). I also know that not a one of them would recognize
themselves, but they'd be quick to point out everyone else :]

As for input, you already have mine, Tinner :] We have most of the same
frustrations (YOu deal with it much better than me :)).

Later

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

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Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:34:40 +0000
> I anticipate your input.

Brace yourself, here it comes!

> I: INTRODUCTION: WHAT IS A MUNCHKIN?
>
> If you are reading this manual, you are either looking for a good laugh,
> looking
> for helpful hints, or reading it because somebody handed it to you without
> any
> explanation.

Great. I can see their face now...:)

> The purpose of this manual is to provide a guide to weary players of the
> phenomenal RPG known as Shadowrun put out by FASA. It is a role-playing

This section seems "kludgy", as if SR were the problem, not munchies.
Also, if this is SR specific, why not rename it to The SHADOWRUN
MUNCHKIN MANAUAL?

> II: HOW TO RECONIZE A MUNCHKIN

I'd include lots of realistic but shocking examples throughout the
text. Not only will it be more interesting reading, but it will give
a munchy that is handed this the ability to recognize themselves.

> 2. The Rules Manipulators.
> Min-Maxers are those than engage in Min-Maxing. A Min-Maxed character is
> one that is astoundingly weak in one area in order to put the points into
> one other
> points into Firearms and Combat skills. Any munchkin that makes a character
> vulnerable in one area to make it powerful in another is a Min-Maxer.

A difficult section. Be more SR specific. A Sammy with Firearms 6
and Street Etiquette of 3 isn't min maxed. If the person's sammies
ALWAYS have a Charisma of 1, it's min-maxed.

> Know-It-Alls are players that are well-read in all the wonders of the Sixth

okay, but only because I've had experience with them. Again, more
examples!

> Like the Demolition expert with a Panther Assault Cannon, Barret Sniper
> Rifle
> and Wired Reflexes III, or the Shapeshifter Combat Mage whose entire
> concept is
> that he's got Regeneration and takes Physical Drain from spells with a
> Force
> higher than his Magic rating.

ah, much better :)

> possible that their street punk could have learned Gunnery from the local
> VA.

Hey! I learned Gunnery from the VA! :P j/k

> The Rules Warpers are the players that want to make a given Skill,
> Attribute,
> Spell, or Physad Ability do something that it obviously cannot do and was
> never
> meant to do. Like the player that, under the basis that it raises your
> Charisma,
> wants to use Tailored Pheromones for summoning Spirits.. Or the player who
> wants to default to Firearms for an Athletics test. Or even the player that
> insists
> that he can fire his light pistol with enough accuracy that he can fire
> through the
> Juggernauts eye, into the brain and kill the beast with one shot.


> 3. Power Gamers
>
> Power Gamers are a type of munchkin all their own. They're not Cheaters
> and not
> Rules Manipulators (though they may use these strategies). Power Gamers are
> players that are only interested in gaining personal power for their
> characters.

I'd make this a section of Rules Manipulators, an extreme variant. A
lot of people will want a distinction drawn between Pg's and Munchies
(as in, you can occasionally want to play in a PG game, but never in
a munchy game). You should at least mention that in passing.

> These are the munchkins that don't think they're going to be satisfied
> unless
> they're playing gods. Some players have declined to play given games

"gods"? Not specific. SR doesn't have gods. (Now, if you said for
example, a shape-shifting rigger-decker-mage who is vampiric and is
CEO of several mega-corporations, that's different)

> A variant of the power gamer is the Wound Wailer. These munchkins become so
> attached to their character that any damage is seen as a personal affront.
> Even a
> Light Wound becomes a major trauma to these players. While no one likes
> having
> their character mauled in combat, a role-player takes this in stride,
> accepting that
> Shadowrunners live dangerous lives. A Wound Wailer on the other hand is
> incapable of believing that any harm should ever come to his beloved PC.

Explain why each of these groups pisses off the rest of the group.

> 4. Other Variations
> The Loony is the player who always looks for the comedy in a game. No

Ditto, more detail on why it sucks. Examples of what one acts like.

> The Evil Git is the player who has ulterior motives for everything. Every
> other player uncomfortable, it is munchkinhood in it's purest form.

Heh, I've got one of these.

> III: HOW TO DEAL WITH MUNCHKINS
>
> Unfortunately, there are no proven methods for dealing with munchkins.

> The Enforcer method involves being a dictatorial GM and severely limiting

okay.

> A more subtle approach is to sit the munchkin in question down and calmly
> explain to them what they're doing wrong. Be wary, being accused of
> munchkining will usually cause a player to go on the defensive very quickly
> as
> many munchkins are not even aware that they're munchkining. Use calm,
> diplomatic reason in your argument. Tell them what you don't like and why
> and
> how you can go about fixing the problem. Make sure they know it's not a
> personal attack. If the problem persists then be more firm, subtly let
> them know
> that they're playing on borrowed time if they keep it up.

Throw in a section here "If were handed this book, then it is being
hinted that you are a munchkin. Stay calm, take a deep breath. This
condition is not terminal, nor is it permanent. It is treatable, and
we're goign to talk you down. Just keep reading. Oh, and stop
hitting whoever gave this to you."

> Again, Unfortunately, the most current and popular method is Ostracizim.
> In
> More diplomacy is called for in situations like this. Unfortunately,
> munchkins
> tend to be thick-headed and usually won't listen to reason.

too vague here. "we should talk more" "Talking doesn't work". ???
>
> IV: HOW TO STOP BEING A MUNCHKIN
>
> CHARACTER
>
> By now some of you may have realized that you fit the description of one

This might be more humorous in a format such as "Hi, my name is Zog,
Champion of the Inner universe, CEO of Ares, and scourge of Renraku,
and I am a munchkin.

Hi Zog. We're here to help..."

> ATTRIBUTES
> primary category. And never EVER choose your primary category on the basis

Primary category? A little too much WoD perhaps? :)

> SKILLS

good section...perhaps a list of "non-munchkinous skills"?

> EXTRAS
'Kay

> EDGES & FLAWS
> COMMON MUNCHKIN FLAWS: Allergy - Uncommon substance (reeeeallly
> uncommon substance, like Polonium),Vindictive, Uncouth, Combat Monster
> (used as an Edge), Distinctive Style.

<wince> I've taken Vindictive in a few characters, along with combat
monster and even distinctive style on one. This hits a little close
to home.

You might mention also that if the GM allows the characters to take
more edges than flaws (which appears to be how it works if you make
an entirely point based character) the person should not realize they
"need more points" and go looking for flaws. wrong attitude. [When
SR comp first came out, I had one player try and come in with 38
(!?!) points of flaws.]

> COMMON MUNCHKIN EDGES: Lightning Reflexes, Combat Skill Affinity.

Phew. I feel safe again. although you might want to add Focused
Concentration. I don't know how munchkinous it is, but about 75% of
mages/shamans in my group take it.

> PRE-GAME WARM-UP

Good section.

> GAME TIME!

Okay.

> PART VI: MUNCHKIN STORIES

I'd sprinkle these throughout and add a few more.

Not bad overall. Your audience is a bit vague though. I'd recommend
reformating the whole thing as a Munchkin Support Guide, Like one of
those Q&A documents from different groups (AA, Women against Domestic
violence, the IRS, etc) Place a bit at the top saying "Please, if you
know a munckin, hand them this brochure. If you have been handed
this, or suspect that you are descending to munchkin-hood, please
read on. We're here to help.

hmm. Since I'm so opinionated on it, why don't I give a sample
layout?

Shadowrun Munchkins Anonymous

Please, if you know a munchkin or suspect that someone you know may
becoming one, hand them this brochure. If you have been handed this,
or suspect that you are descending to munchkin-hood, please read on.
We're here to help.

Q. What is a Munchkin?
A. A munchkin is a someone who improves their character above normal
levels in various ways. Some of these ways include (with examples):
-Cheating (not rolling for drain, not spending karma for re-rolls,
lying about die rolls)
-Min-Maxing (Giving all Street Samurai charisma of 1 and no social
skills so they can have Firearms, un/armed combat and gunnery at 6)
-Conceptual (your family is all dead so you have no ties)
-Rule-manipulating (Taking all physical drain so you can regenerate
or heal it)

Q. I'm acused of being one of these? I'll kill <whoever> for this!
A. Please calm down. Whoever gave this to you did out of concern
for you. This condition is treatable. There is evidence of
individuals who have had munchkin-ness go into remission, and even
cases of 100% cures. Continue reading, we're here to help.

Q. Okay, so, if, theoretically, I was a munchkin, how would I know?
A. Take this simple quiz. The greater the number of [MUNCHKIN]
answers, the greater the chance that you are munchkinous. [DANGER]
answers are danger signs, but have been witnessed in perfectly
healthy individuals in low quantities. This quiz is not a
comprehensive test, merely a diagnostic tool.

AM I A SHADOWRUN MUNCHKIN QUIZ

1) Are any of your characters relatives alive?
(a) No, they were all killed years ago [MUNCHKIN]
(b) Yes, but they don't know anything about me. [DANGER]
(c) Yes, I have a spouse and several kids who are routinely
targeted by all my enemies [BULL]
(d) Yes, a few.

2) What is the difference between the number of combat skills you
have and the number of non-combat skills (magical, decking, and
rigging skills count as combat for this questions)
(a) 0-1 [MUNCHKIN]
(b) 2-3 [DANGER]
(c) 4-5
(d)6, but in favor of more combat skills than non-combat
[BIG DANGER]

3) How many of the following skills is your character quite
competent at? Rigging, Decking, Magic, Combat
(a) 0-1
(b) 2 [Danger]
(c) 3-4 [MUNCHKIN]
(d) 5 (You can't count well)

4) Do you ever "forget" any of the following?
take Drain, wound modifiers, visibility modifiers,
that I don't take all my gear everywhere, that a one is not a six.
(a) No
(b) Yes, but very rarely and always accidently
(c) Yes, but only when the GM isn't looking [MUNCHKIN]
(d) Yes, but only when I need to to live [MUNCHKIN]
(e) No, but all my dice are weighted [MUNCHKIN]

5) Do you have any items from the following list:
Barret 121, wired reflexes 4, Improved gas Vent 5 (or higher),
Panther Assault cannon, Ruthiem Polymer suit, Power Focus level 10 or
higher
(a) No
(b) Yes, 1 [DANGER]
(c) Yes, a few [MUNCHKIN]
(d) Yes, all of them [REALLY MUNCHKIN]
(e) No, those are all last years model [ARE YOU FOR REAL?]

6) Was your character trained by any of the following?
Special Forces, A Dragon, Fastjack
(a) Yes [MUNCHKIN]
(b) No
(C) Yes, all of them in fact [MUNCHKIN]
(d) no, but I'm a dragon, Fastjack is my brother, and I eat special
forces attacks for breakfast [REALLY MUNCHKIN]

7) what size is your characters Karma pool?
(a) 0, that Damn hand of God rule
(b) 1-10
(c) 20-50 [DANGER]
(d) 50-100 [MUNCHKIN]
(e) 100-500 [MUNCHKIN] (Don't laugh, it's happened!)


Q. Hi, my name is Zog, Shape-shifting vampiric
rigger-otaku-mage, Champion of the Earth, CEO of Ares, Terror of
Renraku, and Scourge of the Matrix-Astral Net, and I'm a Munchkin
A. Hi Zog. Nice to meet you. It's important not to panic now. You
taken the first, and in some ways, the most important step towards
recovery: You've admited you have a problem.

Q. I...I feel so ashamed.
A. There's no need to dwell on the past. Let's work on healing you.

Q. Is there any hope?
A. Of course! Let's start immediately. Follow these tips:

<insert Tinners advice here>

Q. Thank you so much! Thanks to SR MUNCHKINS ANONYMOUS, I was able
to put my portable Barret firing Lightning-Explosive-APDS rounds away
for good!
A. That's great! Now you may be tempted in the future, but remember
what you've learned here, and you'll be fine.

Q. How can I repay you?
A. No thanks are necessary. (small, unmarked bills are accepted).
Just pass this brochure on to anyone you think is in danger.

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 4
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:53:28 -0400
I have to say I'm opposed to types like Power Gamers, the Wound Wimp (my
name for it) and the Evil Git as munchkins.

They're not munchkins.

They can very often be disruptive to the game. But they aren't munchkins.

I would strongly advise listing them under "Other Potential Problem Types"
or something.

And Power Gaming honestly is often simply a style of gaming. It involved
characters running around with powered armor and saving the world. It's no
less valid that gutterpunks doing runs on a small corp for pennies. It's
just a different way of doing things, and it's a difference of opinion.

I enjoy Power Gaming. I also enjoy role-playing much smaller characters,
like gutterpunks. Each has it's advantages and drawbacks. It's a matter
of choice, style and opinion.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 5
From: "Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:28:06 -0500
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

> I have to say I'm opposed to types like Power Gamers, the Wound Wimp (my
> name for it) and the Evil Git as munchkins.
>
> They're not munchkins.
>
> They can very often be disruptive to the game. But they aren't munchkins.
>
> I would strongly advise listing them under "Other Potential Problem Types"
> or something.
>
> And Power Gaming honestly is often simply a style of gaming. It involved
> characters running around with powered armor and saving the world. It's no
> less valid that gutterpunks doing runs on a small corp for pennies. It's
> just a different way of doing things, and it's a difference of opinion.
>
> I enjoy Power Gaming. I also enjoy role-playing much smaller characters,
> like gutterpunks. Each has it's advantages and drawbacks. It's a matter
> of choice, style and opinion.
>
> Erik J.

I have to agree with Erik on this point, only he beat me to responding to
it. These groups may not be appropriate for all campaigns, and they are
certainly annoying, or "other potential problem types" as Erik stated,
but in a lot of cases I would not go as far as calling them Munchkins.

As far as power gamers go, I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not a
huge fan of power gaming, but it is a legit form of gaming. I did try a
mercenary campaign once, where players had access to military grade armor,
etc. It wound up being a lot of fun with large amounts of ammo expended,
and big explosions, but I would not call it munchkinism. Probably the main
reason behind this is because they were not unbalancing; in all cases
their opposition reguarly had access to simular hardware, APDS ammo, power
armor, and other military grade toys. The campaign involved
everything from stopping nuclear weapons from being launched to blowing up
a chemical weapons plant and training in a Special Forces team.

Unbalancing is the key word here. If we're playing an on the street game
it is annoying as hell to have somebody make up a Merc with SOTA 6 for
their merit, and it causes the game to become unbalanced. In those
cases it may border on munchkinism, but all-in-all power gamers are not
neccisaraly munchkins.

--
Wherever you go, there you are.
Ryan Bolduan
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~emeottrw/sr/sr.html
Message no. 6
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:26:17 -0400
At 09:34 AM 4/10/98 +0000, you wrote:

>> These are the munchkins that don't think they're going to be satisfied
>> unless
>> they're playing gods. Some players have declined to play given games
>
>"gods"? Not specific. SR doesn't have gods. (Now, if you said for
>example, a shape-shifting rigger-decker-mage who is vampiric and is
>CEO of several mega-corporations, that's different)

That's not a Power Gamer, that's an outright munchkin.

>> EDGES & FLAWS
>> COMMON MUNCHKIN FLAWS: Allergy - Uncommon substance (reeeeallly
>> uncommon substance, like Polonium),Vindictive, Uncouth, Combat Monster
>> (used as an Edge), Distinctive Style.
>
><wince> I've taken Vindictive in a few characters, along with combat
>monster and even distinctive style on one. This hits a little close
>to home.

The drawback to those flaws, such as Vindictive or Distinctive Style is
that it has to be role-played...*that's* why munchkins take them, because
it doesn't affect their dice chucking. For that same reason, it's why you
have some serious *role* players taking them as well.

>> COMMON MUNCHKIN EDGES: Lightning Reflexes, Combat Skill Affinity.
>
>Phew. I feel safe again. although you might want to add Focused
>Concentration. I don't know how munchkinous it is, but about 75% of
>mages/shamans in my group take it.

Maybe add in the increased racial attribute maximum also. It can make
sense (and I think it does with the one character that has it), but it's
also something that is open for abuse.

>Shadowrun Munchkins Anonymous
>
>Please, if you know a munchkin or suspect that someone you know may
>becoming one, hand them this brochure. If you have been handed this,
>or suspect that you are descending to munchkin-hood, please read on.
>We're here to help.

I like this format. Very amusing. Makes it easier to read and digest.

> AM I A SHADOWRUN MUNCHKIN QUIZ
>
> 1) Are any of your characters relatives alive?
> (a) No, they were all killed years ago [MUNCHKIN]
> (b) Yes, but they don't know anything about me. [DANGER]
> (c) Yes, I have a spouse and several kids who are routinely
> targeted by all my enemies [BULL]
> (d) Yes, a few.

Why is the fact that all your relatives killed years ago munchkinous? (I'm
guessing you mean close family) I did that with my character as his
history, as to why he's a runner. It also made him something of a racist too.


> 2) What is the difference between the number of combat skills you
>have and the number of non-combat skills (magical, decking, and
>rigging skills count as combat for this questions)
> (a) 0-1 [MUNCHKIN]
> (b) 2-3 [DANGER]
> (c) 4-5
> (d)6, but in favor of more combat skills than non-combat
> [BIG DANGER]

Okay, I don't understand how you rated this. No difference between the
number of combat and non-combat skills is munchkinous? I'm not sure I
follow the reasoning.


> 3) How many of the following skills is your character quite
>competent at? Rigging, Decking, Magic, Combat
> (a) 0-1
> (b) 2 [Danger]
> (c) 3-4 [MUNCHKIN]
> (d) 5 (You can't count well)

This seems a little unfair towards those PCs that function as back-ups for
other team members. Your rigger may have to also be competent at decking
and combat. In fact, most PCs that live a while will be compentent in
their field and in combat. Fact of shadowrun life.

Maybe should be reworded as "How many of the following skills is your
character the best in your group at? Rigging, Decking, Magic, Combat,
Social&Knowledge skills." (remember, the guy with Negotiation 10 or B/R
Anything 10 is guilty also)


> 5) Do you have any items from the following list:
> Barret 121, wired reflexes 4, Improved gas Vent 5 (or higher),
>Panther Assault cannon, Ruthiem Polymer suit, Power Focus level 10 or
>higher
> (a) No
> (b) Yes, 1 [DANGER]
> (c) Yes, a few [MUNCHKIN]
> (d) Yes, all of them [REALLY MUNCHKIN]
> (e) No, those are all last years model [ARE YOU FOR REAL?]

Now *this* is on the mark. Munchkins love their non-canon tech toys.


> 6) Was your character trained by any of the following?
> Special Forces, A Dragon, Fastjack
> (a) Yes [MUNCHKIN]
> (b) No
> (C) Yes, all of them in fact [MUNCHKIN]
> (d) no, but I'm a dragon, Fastjack is my brother, and I eat special
>forces attacks for breakfast [REALLY MUNCHKIN]

If the answer is YES, there had better be a *real* damn good reason why it
isn't munchkinous.


> 7) what size is your characters Karma pool?
> (a) 0, that Damn hand of God rule
> (b) 1-10
> (c) 20-50 [DANGER]
> (d) 50-100 [MUNCHKIN]
> (e) 100-500 [MUNCHKIN] (Don't laugh, it's happened!)

The only time Karma should soar up to 50+ is the magician trying to make an
ally. That's the only reason I can think of.


>
>Q. Hi, my name is Zog, Shape-shifting vampiric
>rigger-otaku-mage, Champion of the Earth, CEO of Ares, Terror of
>Renraku, and Scourge of the Matrix-Astral Net, and I'm a Munchkin
>A. Hi Zog. Nice to meet you. It's important not to panic now. You
>taken the first, and in some ways, the most important step towards
>recovery: You've admited you have a problem.
>
>Q. I...I feel so ashamed.
>A. There's no need to dwell on the past. Let's work on healing you.
>
>Q. Is there any hope?
>A. Of course! Let's start immediately. Follow these tips:
>
><insert Tinners advice here>
>
>Q. Thank you so much! Thanks to SR MUNCHKINS ANONYMOUS, I was able
>to put my portable Barret firing Lightning-Explosive-APDS rounds away
>for good!
>A. That's great! Now you may be tempted in the future, but remember
>what you've learned here, and you'll be fine.
>
>Q. How can I repay you?
>A. No thanks are necessary. (small, unmarked bills are accepted).
>Just pass this brochure on to anyone you think is in danger.


Laugh! Very amusing Brett. Very amusing.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 7
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:53:01 -0400
At 01:26 PM 4/10/98 -0400, you wrote:

>That's not a Power Gamer, that's an outright munchkin.

-Arguing- over the defining terms really is not worthwhile. We don't need
a discussion of this. There are differences of opinion on the definition
of munchkin floating everywhere.

>> AM I A SHADOWRUN MUNCHKIN QUIZ
>>
>> 1) Are any of your characters relatives alive?
>> (a) No, they were all killed years ago [MUNCHKIN]
>> (b) Yes, but they don't know anything about me. [DANGER]
>> (c) Yes, I have a spouse and several kids who are routinely
>> targeted by all my enemies [BULL]
>> (d) Yes, a few.
>
>Why is the fact that all your relatives killed years ago munchkinous? (I'm
>guessing you mean close family) I did that with my character as his
>history, as to why he's a runner. It also made him something of a racist
too.

Exactly. Characters have a wide variety of backgrounds. Hell, if I was
going to personally embark on a career as an organized crime figure or
terrorist, I think I'd cut all ties to my family and vanish just to keep
them out of it. Think: superheroes. They take on false identities and
wear masks to keep their identity from being public, so their friends and
loved ones aren't ground into hamburger. Runners could easily have the
same problems.
I'm soon going to be playing a runner who still keeps in touch with his
parents, but only rarely, to keep them safe from all the criminals he has
to work with. They don't really know where he lives, he just visits them,
and not very often. He feels bad enough that he's taken to this life,
because of the money and excitement it offers (rather than being a more
productive person, a family man, etc.), and doesn't want to get them
involved in it on top of that.

>Okay, I don't understand how you rated this. No difference between the
>number of combat and non-combat skills is munchkinous? I'm not sure I
>follow the reasoning.

I think it's silly when someone who is a professional at violence and theft
doesn't primarily learn skills related to just that. If you're a criminal
by chance or necessity rather than choice, face it, there wasn't time to
learn much else, and you had to become good at it or starve (or -get- killed).

>This seems a little unfair towards those PCs that function as back-ups for
>other team members. Your rigger may have to also be competent at decking
>and combat. In fact, most PCs that live a while will be compentent in
>their field and in combat. Fact of shadowrun life.

Exactly. Even if I can chuck a Manabolt, I'd like a Ceska as a backup,
please. I'm a criminal, and if I'm a runner, probably a fairly successful
one. Not knowing how to use a gun is to leave a big potential weakness. It
would be like being a runner but with no stealth skill... You can't be
sneaky? Gimme a break. Next you'll be telling me you use your SIN all the
time...

>Maybe should be reworded as "How many of the following skills is your
>character the best in your group at? Rigging, Decking, Magic, Combat,
>Social&Knowledge skills." (remember, the guy with Negotiation 10 or B/R
>Anything 10 is guilty also)

Anyone with a skill rating 10 has put the karma into -getting- better at
it. They deserve it. Some people really are that singleminded. Now, if
it's the only skill on the sheet...

>> 7) what size is your characters Karma pool?
>> (a) 0, that Damn hand of God rule
>> (b) 1-10
>> (c) 20-50 [DANGER]
>> (d) 50-100 [MUNCHKIN]
>> (e) 100-500 [MUNCHKIN] (Don't laugh, it's happened!)
>
>The only time Karma should soar up to 50+ is the magician trying to make an
>ally. That's the only reason I can think of.

Um, if a character has a big Karma Pool, again, it's something awarded over
time, by the GM... ("Thirty-seven?")

losthalo
Message no. 8
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:05:51 -0500
On 10 Apr 98 at 13:26, Erik Jameson wrote:

> Why is the fact that all your relatives killed years ago
> munchkinous? (I'm guessing you mean close family) I did that with
> my character as his history, as to why he's a runner. It also made
> him something of a racist too.

I mean no offense here, Erik, because I've done it too. But I feel
that it is munckinous, because it gives them reason to not have to
roleplay anything regarding family, and it doesn't give the
gamemaster any hooks to control or manipulate them with. Besides, its
so cliche. Just about every character I have ever seen has dead
relatives. (Most of mine included).

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------
- DREKHEAD - |"Let's face it. Sometimes your a
- drekhead@***.net - | pigeon, and sometimes your the
*-ShadowRN - GridSec Division-* | statue."
"To Protect and To Serve" |-Unknown
=================================================================
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
Message no. 9
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:51:59 -0700
> >Okay, I don't understand how you rated this. No difference between the
> >number of combat and non-combat skills is munchkinous? I'm not sure I
> >follow the reasoning.
>
> I think it's silly when someone who is a professional at violence
> and theft
> doesn't primarily learn skills related to just that. If you're a criminal
> by chance or necessity rather than choice, face it, there wasn't time to
> learn much else, and you had to become good at it or starve (or
> -get- killed).

I can understand where you're coming from, and I agree with most of it, but
when combat are the only skills that you're advancing in, and you neglect
social skills, etc. you become a very one-dimesional character/player.


> >Maybe should be reworded as "How many of the following skills is your
> >character the best in your group at? Rigging, Decking, Magic, Combat,
> >Social&Knowledge skills." (remember, the guy with Negotiation 10 or B/R
> >Anything 10 is guilty also)
>
> Anyone with a skill rating 10 has put the karma into -getting- better at
> it. They deserve it. Some people really are that singleminded. Now, if
> it's the only skill on the sheet...

Again, I understand what you're saying, but the main subject is munchkins.
Munchkins are only concerned about being the biggest, and the best, and to
win. That, to me, defines a munchkin more than any other characteristic.
They want to win, and that is the only thing that is on their mind.
Role-playing is not about winning, it's about role-playing. Almost every
RPG out their tells you that winning is not the point of the game.
Munchkins don't understand this concept.
If a character/player keeps increasing his combat skills, and nothing else,
but role-plays a person who is consumed with vengeance over the death of his
family, and wants nothing more to kill the person/corporation/entity
responsible for this, but constantly has nightmares over seeing his family
gunned down, and is internally struggling with himself over his parents'
wish to see him become a nice wage-slave for a major corporation, and it's
eating him up inside trying to make the right decision...this person is not
trying to win, he's trying to role-play his character. I think that most
people would agree that this person is not munchkining (is that a word?).
On the other hand...if this same character/player has those combat skills
(Firearms 10, Armed Combat 10, Unarmed Combat 10...all other skills (if he
has any other skills) at 2) for the sole reason that he could be the person
with the highest body count...
So I guess my point is...Dangit, I lost it..Oh yeah: One-dimesional
characters detract from the gaming experience. Munchkins are almost always
one-dimensional. The player who has high combat skills, but neglects any
social or knowledge skills, is quickly becoming one-dimensional. Any person
with any skill over 10 I would suspect, unless his other skills were close
to ten also.

Christopher Hayes
"Who put their hoo-hoo dilly in your cha-cha?" - Cartman
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:59:07 EST
> >"gods"? Not specific. SR doesn't have gods. (Now, if you said for
> >example, a shape-shifting rigger-decker-mage who is vampiric and is
> >CEO of several mega-corporations, that's different)
>
> That's not a Power Gamer, that's an outright munchkin.

True, but I was going for something more amusing than someone who
plays a shape-shifter so they can regenerate after casting Manaball
force 20.

> The drawback to those flaws, such as Vindictive or Distinctive Style
> is that it has to be role-played...*that's* why munchkins take them,
> because it doesn't affect their dice chucking. For that same
> reason, it's why you have some serious *role* players taking them as
> well.

Thanks for protecting my ego. :)

> Maybe add in the increased racial attribute maximum also. It can
> make sense (and I think it does with the one character that has it),
> but it's also something that is open for abuse.

Yup. I'd also add flashbacks. The roll is easy enough that most
people will never have a problem with it, and a 4 point flaw is big.

> >Shadowrun Munchkins Anonymous
> I like this format. Very amusing. Makes it easier to read and
> digest.

Thanks. That was my intention. I think Tinner got the ideas down so
I didn't have to worry about that part.

> Why is the fact that all your relatives killed years ago
> munchkinous? (I'm guessing you mean close family) I did that with
> my character as his history, as to why he's a runner. It also made
> him something of a racist too.

As with most things, it's purpose. Most munchies will make sure they
don't have to worry about role-playing any social situations, not to
mention not having your family held against you. It sounds like you
used it as role-playing background, not aversion, so you are
protected.

> Okay, I don't understand how you rated this. No difference between
> the number of combat and non-combat skills is munchkinous? I'm not
> sure I follow the reasoning.

Well, I shooting for something like this:
MUNCHIE SKILL SET
Firearms 6
Armed Combat 6
Unarmed Combat 6
Gunnery 6

Non Munchy Skill Set

Firearms 4
Unarmed Combat 3
Stealth 3
Athletics 2
Etiquette: Street 3
Negotiation 3
Physical Sciences 2
Bike 2
Computer 2

I guess I could phrase it better, but...

> > 3) How many of the following skills is your character quite
> >competent at? Rigging, Decking, Magic, Combat

> This seems a little unfair towards those PCs that function as
> back-ups for other team members. Your rigger may have to also be

I thought of that, which is why I used "_quite_ competent". Back-ups
aren't primaries for a reason.

> Maybe should be reworded as "How many of the following skills is
> your character the best in your group at? Rigging, Decking, Magic,
> Combat, Social&Knowledge skills." (remember, the guy with
> Negotiation 10 or B/R Anything 10 is guilty also)

Better way of saying the same thing.

> > 7) what size is your characters Karma pool?
> The only time Karma should soar up to 50+ is the magician trying to
> make an ally. That's the only reason I can think of.

And I was talking Karma POOL. :)

> Laugh! Very amusing Brett. Very amusing.

<bows> It was nothing any brilliant genius wouldn't have done in my
place. :) Thanks.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 11
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:30:32 +0000
> "gods"? Not specific. SR doesn't have gods. (Now, if you said for
> example, a shape-shifting rigger-decker-mage who is vampiric and is
> CEO of several mega-corporations, that's different)
Whys that munchkinous??? I play one (nearly)... okay it took 5 years
of continual, hardcore roleplaying but started on the street. He's
not vampiric though. The rest of the group is the same, and anytime
we meet again (spread all over Germany now, so its a bit hard) we
have some really good times.

'Hey guys put away the carps.. and ..and I didn't know you could make
a carp launcher full Auto ... and ...and'
< Takes his red Cap out and calls his red Pizza Hut bearing Van Ally>
'Pizza, Pepperoni and Anchovis for the stairs !!!'

<muffled sound from down under some staircase> 'bring it here and
close the carp bomb proof door behind you'

Aehm maybe this is too far out ?!
--Raven

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w+ O M+ V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+++ R* tv+(++) b+++ DI? D+
G(++) e>++++ h--(---) !r z?
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Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:59:36 -0400
At 02:05 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 10 Apr 98 at 13:26, Erik Jameson wrote:
>
>> Why is the fact that all your relatives killed years ago
>> munchkinous? (I'm guessing you mean close family) I did that with
>> my character as his history, as to why he's a runner. It also made
>> him something of a racist too.
>
>I mean no offense here, Erik, because I've done it too. But I feel
>that it is munckinous, because it gives them reason to not have to
>roleplay anything regarding family, and it doesn't give the
>gamemaster any hooks to control or manipulate them with. Besides, its
>so cliche. Just about every character I have ever seen has dead
>relatives. (Most of mine included).

It may be cliched and it is potentially munchkinous, but it clearly isn't
automatic.

In my case, the PC's parents and sister were killed by orks and trolls;
they got accidentally caught up in a race riot. So the PC has a Humanis
contact, Slay Ork and Slay Elf spells, and will leave a "trog" team member
out to dry if at all possible. Won't put magic pool into healing a "trog"
(when he has to do that).

So instead of removing a way for the GM to get at the PC (and I
deliberately have done things so that the GM can do interesting and evil
things to my PCs; it's always with the understanding that the PC won't be
deliberatly killed, though still a possibility. It's done to create
interesting and intense role-playing situations), I've made it into
something to role-play, something that generates a very interesting dynamic
in the team.

So potentially the lack of family (and suprisingly, NO ONE, not even
myself, has thought of aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, etc.) can be
munchkinous, but it isn't automatic. Sometimes it's a means to an end for
role-playing, sometimes it simply makes sense for the PC.

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 13
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:19:16 +0000
> Erik J.
>
>
> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
I think your .sig is a bit out of date by now... ;)
won't say more because of spoilers for part 3 dragonheart saga!
--Raven

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Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:48:26 EST
> It may be cliched and it is potentially munchkinous, but it clearly
> isn't automatic.

...
> So potentially the lack of family (and suprisingly, NO ONE, not even
> myself, has thought of aunts, uncles, nephews, nieces, etc.) can be
> munchkinous, but it isn't automatic. Sometimes it's a means to an
> end for role-playing, sometimes it simply makes sense for the PC.

Actually, that's how many of my characters solve the family=difficult
ties/no family=munchy dilemma. I have slightly distant relatives.
Family without immediate difficulties. I can role-play situations
with them, but it doesn't become a daily "Why don't you get a real
job" pain.

And as for it not being automatic, well, an argument can be made for
any one of the quiz questions. Thats why I said the more numerous
the MUNCHKIN rated answers, the more likely it was that you had a
problem.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 15
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:12:48 -0400
At 09:30 PM 4/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> "gods"? Not specific. SR doesn't have gods. (Now, if you said for
>> example, a shape-shifting rigger-decker-mage who is vampiric and is
>> CEO of several mega-corporations, that's different)
>Whys that munchkinous??? I play one (nearly)... okay it took 5 years
>of continual, hardcore roleplaying but started on the street. He's
>not vampiric though. The rest of the group is the same, and anytime
>we meet again (spread all over Germany now, so its a bit hard) we
>have some really good times.

I swear I'll try to be nice, honest.

Let's look at this.

Okay, 5 years ago, shapeshifters weren't available for PCs from FASA, but
there were house rules and web pages that had the info. Canon
shapeshifters *can't* have cyberware, which makes the rigger-decker part
very problematic.

Of course, I have a habit of trying to retrofit characters and NPCs to fit
the most current FASA rules (sometimes to their benefit, sometimes not),
but I know some people just keep going on with certain house rules. That's
me though.

Anyway, let's, for sake of argument, say that the shapeshifter element is
out and that we'll play by FASA canon rules.

To be a decker/rigger/mage, you'd have to take priority A for magic (I
guessing you're talking full magician, not adept). Priority B is usually
then going to go to Resources, because you want as many spell points as
possible, plus that's the only way you are going to afford the cyberware at
creation.

Resource B gives only I think 150K nY to the starting magical character.
Datajack is only a few grand and takes up a tiny bit of Essence. Okay,
that's cool so far. VCR cost 2 Essence(?) and costs I think 50K, or in
that range.

We've now got a fellow with 3 Magic Rating, a datajack and a VCR 1.

Additional nuYen would have to go to things like a car/motorcycle,
weaponry, armor, magical items (fetishes probably), a cyberdeck and
programs, and so on. Which means he probably won't have anything very good.

Priority 3 and 4 will go to Skills and Attributes. Not going to have a lot
to spread around for either of them. Need to have good Intelligence,
Willpower, and Quickness. Charisma and Strength will almost certainly
plummet since it simply isn't smart to neglect Body (sorry, that's the
*one* Attribute NO runner should neglect; can't take much damage with a
Body 1 or 2, even with good armor).

Skill-wise, you have to split your skills between Sorcery, Conjuring,
Decking, Pilot Car (or some rigged vehicle), B/R Car (same vehicle as the
Pilot skill) and Firearms (must have skill). That doesn't include all the
other skills that will be needed to round out the PC and make them fully
functional members of their profession, such as Magical Theory, Etiquette
skills, additional pilot and combat skills.

Priority 5 will obviously have to go to being human instead of metahuman,
or shapeshifter.

What this ends up with is a character that really has not a strong chance
of survival. He/she/it simply can't do anything well enough. This is a
character that can only survive through the generosity of the GM and the
fellow players.

Despite all role-playing considerations, I always design a character that
has a chance for survival. That *doesn't* mean they are combat gods, but
they've got to have a chance to survive a gun fight. That might mean solid
combat skills, good magic, or simply a strong Body to soak up punishment.
Hell, it might be the ability to talk their way out, but survivability is
key for me. Gotta have *something* in that regard.

What if this is done after creation, to a magician? Much easier, but the
karma costs of learning the various pilot, B/R, and decking skills is just
way to much for the magician, since magicians have so much of a karma drain
on them already. But it could be done; I remember a munchkin I gamed with
who started out as mage, became a cybermonster (he pushed his Essence down
to 1, but Initiated to compentate; he still managed to knock himself out
every game due to drain), and also went hardcore as a decker. There's
more, but I won't get into it.

He was a combination min-Maxer/Know-it-all.

As for the head of a corporation...I hate it when that happens.
Shadowrunners do illegal things. Can't have a CEO as a criminal. Too many
potential problems with the governments and rival corporations. Plus, a
criminal CEO would drive stock prices down; hard to manage a company from
solitary prison confiment. It would also be considered an unacceptable
overall risk to the company by the other company brass.

So I really don't see any current shadowrunners being heads of
corporations. Former, retired runners is entirely possible. But not
current runners.

See, I told you I could be nice!

Erik J.


"What was that popping sound?"

"A paradigm shifting without a clutch."
Message no. 16
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:13:54 -0400
At 02:59 PM 4/10/98 EST, you wrote:
>
>Thanks for protecting my ego. :)

No problem.

>As with most things, it's purpose. Most munchies will make sure they
>don't have to worry about role-playing any social situations, not to
>mention not having your family held against you. It sounds like you
>used it as role-playing background, not aversion, so you are
>protected.

That's true. Most munchies love being able to throw 20 dice at a problem,
instead of role-play it; and how can you throw 20 dice when your PCs sister
is pregnant out of wedlock by the PCs best friend? We're all guilty of
that syndorome sometimes, but it's part and parcel for the munchie.


>Well, I shooting for something like this:
>MUNCHIE SKILL SET
>Firearms 6
>Armed Combat 6
>Unarmed Combat 6
>Gunnery 6
>
>Non Munchy Skill Set
>
>Firearms 4
>Unarmed Combat 3
>Stealth 3
>Athletics 2
>Etiquette: Street 3
>Negotiation 3
>Physical Sciences 2
>Bike 2
>Computer 2

Okay, I see. The second skill set is still very combat and shadowrun
oriented, but isn't munchie. The first is only about being able to kill
something; no skills to find out who to kill or to get to the kill site.


>> > 7) what size is your characters Karma pool?
>> The only time Karma should soar up to 50+ is the magician trying to
>> make an ally. That's the only reason I can think of.
>
>And I was talking Karma POOL. :)

Karma pool. Drek I hate that thing. I've never used that rule. PCs in my
games have what is called Good Karma only. Karma rewards are high, but
without that Karma Pool, they end up spending a big chunk of that high
reward just keeping their sorry hoops alive.

>> Laugh! Very amusing Brett. Very amusing.
>
><bows> It was nothing any brilliant genius wouldn't have done in my
>place. :) Thanks.

Hey, wait a minute. I thought your ego needed *protection*...

Erik J.
Message no. 17
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:21:18 -0500
> That's true. Most munchies love being able to throw 20 dice at a
problem,
> instead of role-play it; and how can you throw 20 dice when your PCs
sister
> is pregnant out of wedlock by the PCs best friend? We're all guilty of
> that syndorome sometimes, but it's part and parcel for the munchie.
First off, you throw 6 dice at your best friend, preferably d100's the
size of baseballs. 6 more go at your sister, but remember to aim for the
head, so you don't hurt the bun in her oven. Then, you use the remaining
eight dice in your intimidation test (Four for your intimidation skill,
Four more since that's your firearms/melee skill and you are holding a
shotgun/pistol/knife/katana to your best friend's
stomach/head/balls/throat) to convince your friend to help take care of
her, pre and post partum. And that is how you role-play throwing 20 dice
at a problem like that.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
************
Yet, I'm also a man who's constantly strivin' for a perfection I'll never
achieve... and probably wouldn't even recognize it if I did.
-Logan, in issue 124 of "Wolverine"
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 18
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:27:36 -0400
At 10:19 PM 4/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>> Erik J.
>>
>>
>> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
>I think your .sig is a bit out of date by now... ;)
>won't say more because of spoilers for part 3 dragonheart saga!
>--Raven

Actually I've left it like that for the two weeks I've had it *because*
there are those who haven't read that book or simply don't know what
happened in it.

And besides, for all your PCs know, it's true.

And above and beyond all that, it's an American pop culture reference.

So what was up with the April Fools Terrence and Phillip BS? I was so
pissed when I realized I had sit through a 30 minute long fart joke. That
was such utter crap!!!

But for those of you that don't believe your voice can occassional make a
difference, well, Comedy Central pushed up it's airing of the Cartman's dad
cliffhanger resolution to April 22. They know they pissed some people off
and are attempting to make amends.

Anyway...

Erik J.

Who doesn't believe in hiding under Gurth's stairs...take your carp and
THWAPS! like a man, damnit!!! ;-)
Message no. 19
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:48:59 -0400
At 09:34 AM 4/10/98 +0000, Brett Borger wrote these timeless words:

>Great. I can see their face now...:)
>
"So why am *I* reading this?? Oh, I get it... You need help with Billy..."

>> The purpose of this manual is to provide a guide to weary players of the
>> phenomenal RPG known as Shadowrun put out by FASA. It is a role-playing
>
>This section seems "kludgy", as if SR were the problem, not munchies.
>Also, if this is SR specific, why not rename it to The SHADOWRUN
>MUNCHKIN MANAUAL?
>
Agreed, since it is mostly aimed at SR....

However, it's easily convertable for any system, i think...

>> II: HOW TO RECONIZE A MUNCHKIN
>
>I'd include lots of realistic but shocking examples throughout the
>text. Not only will it be more interesting reading, but it will give
>a munchy that is handed this the ability to recognize themselves.
>
Hehe... Like we don;t have plenty of THOSE...

[BIG SNIPPY SNIPPY]

Ok, Brett, that was beatiful... Very well done :] It missed a few points,
but that can be worked on :]

Anyways, I'm going to make a few general comments here based on a bunch of
the replies, since this is quickly degenerating into a Munchkin vs
Powergamer vs. Min-Maxer vs. Idiot thread, and that's NOT what this is all
about.

[Note: I'm rather distracted while writing this, watching TV, reading
secret documents pertaining to World Domination, and other happy fun stuff,
so it may babble :]

Munchkin's at their most basic are a combination of ALL of the problem
power-oriented gamers. However, in general, the term has become more of a
general term for all of the different type of problem gamer, sort of the
way the word "Car" has replaced "automobile" in our society, to now
include
trucks, vans, etc.

Let's break down the terms a little (Feel free to add in). For the
purposes of Tinner's Document, let's consider all of these to fall under
the term "Munchkin" (Capital M. And yes, Munchkin has a bad connotation to
it. It should. these are all Problem players, so calling them Munchkins
will hit home hard). BTW: There are exceptions to every rule, but we
don;t need to tell THEM that. that just lets them think that "Hey, that
sounds like me, but I must be the exception..."

MUNCHKIN -- This is the most flagrant and annoying of all players, because
they wiill almost constantly show signs of every other type of problem
player, and they get a whole category of gamer dedicated to them. Munchies
often do their best to "win" the game using whatever means are necessary.
Flashy weapons, massive damage, and thermonuclear warheads are the tools of
their trade. Roleplaying only gets in the way of the munchkin. Family,
friends, loyalty, and compassion are all weaknesses to be avoided. The
munchkin should most often be killed ina hideous manner, and the player
talked with at length.

POWER GAMER -- Very similar to the Munchkin in form and style, Power Gamers
often enjoy "winning" the game, in so much as their character becomes
unbeatable. However, they don;t want the game to end. They enjoy the
power, and begin to manipulate things to their own ends, because it amuses
their petty sense of Godhood :]. Power Gamers often have the biggest and
best gear available, sometimes going outside what is considered legal or
conon for that game to suit their thirst for power. Power gamers may or
may not have family, friend, etc. However, the existance of these has
little to do with roleplaying, but rather than how the player can gain
power. Friends are often powerful allies to help out until such a time as
the PG is able to handle anything and everything himself, and the family is
most often a means to power in the beginning (Rich family, Dad is CEO of
major Cyber Manufacturer, kid can have his pick of Delta Cyber for free...).

MIN-MAXER -- Very similar to the Power gamer, except that MM's have PHD's
in number crunching. All gear, stats, and spells are taken based on
maximum effect for minimum effort. Weapons are weighed by Concealibility
vs. Weight Vs. Damage, Spells arre taken for the most damage/effect for the
elast drain. Then items are further made more powerful through the use of
every modification possible for maximum effect (Concealed Holster, Long
Coats, Burst Fire Camable, APDS Ammo, silencers, modified grips, etc.).
MM's are also very annoying because they know most or all of the rules (at
least all of the rules pertaining to their charcater) and know how to bend
them to their will.

RULES LAWYERS -- Similar to the Min Maxers, except they are less concerned
with power and more concerned with bending the rules to their whims. They
know the letter of every rule, know how to use it (though never break
them), and expect everyone (including the GM) to folow these rules to the
"tee".

EVIL PC's -- These can be any of the other types of problem gamer, or even
the best Role Player you ever met, but they get their enjoyment out of
screwing around with the game, usually by going completely contrary to what
he knows is the GMs plots and plans, and often causing friction and
problems with the other players. These PC's often end up dead by other
players intervention, as well as by annoyed GMs.

There are other types, but for the most part they all fall into one of
these categories. One thing that I have discovered recently is that,
because of certain steretypes and the fear of falling into these
stereotypes, Munchkins have become more canny and sneaky. They will often
now come up with pages of background, reams of supposed personality, and
other things to avoid the old steretypes. However, these are more often
than not nothing but pages of justifictation for their munchkinhood, and
the actual Role Play (or lack thereof) will always be the telling point.

Enjoy!

--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka Chaos, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Cuddly Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome and Archive
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Bond villian."
-- Dennis Miller on HBO
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:46:04 -0400
At 04:21 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> That's true. Most munchies love being able to throw 20 dice at a
>problem,
>> instead of role-play it; and how can you throw 20 dice when your PCs
>sister
>> is pregnant out of wedlock by the PCs best friend? We're all guilty of
>> that syndorome sometimes, but it's part and parcel for the munchie.
> First off, you throw 6 dice at your best friend, preferably d100's
the
>size of baseballs. 6 more go at your sister, but remember to aim for the
>head, so you don't hurt the bun in her oven. Then, you use the remaining
>eight dice in your intimidation test (Four for your intimidation skill,
>Four more since that's your firearms/melee skill and you are holding a
>shotgun/pistol/knife/katana to your best friend's
>stomach/head/balls/throat) to convince your friend to help take care of
>her, pre and post partum. And that is how you role-play throwing 20 dice
>at a problem like that.

Erm, what?!?

I hoping that was supposed to be funny and not that someone needs to work
on some personal issues.

Please tell that was supposed to be a joke, because honestly I didn't get it.

It was only supposed to be an example of a situation that munchkin couldn't
roll-play but would have to role-play, which is antithetical to the munchkin.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 21
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:01:32 -0500
> I hoping that was supposed to be funny and not that someone needs to
work
> on some personal issues.
>
> Please tell that was supposed to be a joke, because honestly I didn't
get it.

Yes, it was supposed to be a joke... I suppose it would have been funnier
if I hadn't switch metaphors in the middle, but I ran out of ideas.
Message no. 22
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:53:36 -0400
At 06:01 PM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> I hoping that was supposed to be funny and not that someone needs to
>work
>> on some personal issues.
>>
>> Please tell that was supposed to be a joke, because honestly I didn't
>get it.
>
>Yes, it was supposed to be a joke... I suppose it would have been funnier
>if I hadn't switch metaphors in the middle, but I ran out of ideas.
>

Okay, I thought so, but I wanted to make sure, for my own personal well being.

Never mind then!

Erik J.

I cannot *WAIT* to get off work and get home today...
Message no. 23
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:18:38 -0400
Once upon a time, losthalo wrote;

>Um, if a character has a big Karma Pool, again, it's something awarded over
>time, by the GM... ("Thirty-seven?")

Come on and sing for us LostHalo

"Only live to maim, MUNCH-KIN!
want to win the game, MUNCH-KIN!"

-Jay and Silent MC23-
Message no. 24
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:17:38 -0400
Once upon a time, Bull wrote;

>Let's break down the terms a little (Feel free to add in). For the
>purposes of Tinner's Document, let's consider all of these to fall under
>the term "Munchkin" (Capital M. And yes, Munchkin has a bad connotation to
>it. It should. these are all Problem players, so calling them Munchkins
>will hit home hard). BTW: There are exceptions to every rule, but we
>don;t need to tell THEM that. that just lets them think that "Hey, that
>sounds like me, but I must be the exception..."
>
>MUNCHKIN -- <snip>

I always think of the younger players who want to do all the neat
and power stuff in the books without dealing with the drawbacks or even
how/why they have things. "So how did you get Harlequin's Sword?"

>POWER GAMER -- <snip>

There is a non-bad type of power gamer. That is when the game itself
is balanced for it.

>MIN-MAXER -- <snip leaving> ...and know how to bend them to their will.

Excuse me? Being a Min/Maxer by nature I take the most offense to
this last remark. It solely belongs to the Rules Lawyer, but of course a
person could qualify for being both. For the record I create my
characters keeping those thoughts in mind. Of course I break from some
Min/Max choices when it better serves my character concept. (Who would
have thought Waif would need his fashion spell during the game until a
run during Mardi Gra came up.)

>RULES LAWYERS -- <snip>

Fine.

>EVIL PC's -- <snip>

Definitely a problem worth mentioning. I don't know if we ever have
on a thread like this before.

I would say that this is more of a list of player types and some are
definitely problematic. Min-Maxer's in and of themselves can be good or
bad.
Same can be said of Rules Lawyers.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 25
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:16:59 -0700
Bull blathered so:

> >Great. I can see their face now...:)
> >
> "So why am *I* reading this?? Oh, I get it... You need help with
Billy..."
>
> >> The purpose of this manual is to provide a guide to weary players of
the
> >> phenomenal RPG known as Shadowrun put out by FASA. It is a
role-playing
> >
> >This section seems "kludgy", as if SR were the problem, not munchies.
> >Also, if this is SR specific, why not rename it to The SHADOWRUN
> >MUNCHKIN MANAUAL?
> >
> Agreed, since it is mostly aimed at SR....
>
> However, it's easily convertable for any system, i think...
>
> >> II: HOW TO RECONIZE A MUNCHKIN
> >
> >I'd include lots of realistic but shocking examples throughout the
> >text. Not only will it be more interesting reading, but it will give
> >a munchy that is handed this the ability to recognize themselves.
> >
> Hehe... Like we don;t have plenty of THOSE...
>
> [BIG SNIPPY SNIPPY]
>
> Ok, Brett, that was beatiful... Very well done :] It missed a few
points,
> but that can be worked on :]
>
> Anyways, I'm going to make a few general comments here based on a bunch
of
> the replies, since this is quickly degenerating into a Munchkin vs
> Powergamer vs. Min-Maxer vs. Idiot thread, and that's NOT what this is
all
> about.
>
> [Note: I'm rather distracted while writing this, watching TV, reading
> secret documents pertaining to World Domination, and other happy fun
stuff,
> so it may babble :]

Speaking of which Mister you were supposed to have those documents on my
desk at 0800 this morning!

...but actually On Topic, I think that were really spitting hairs here,
while there are things that are TYPICALLY munchkinous it doesn't mean they
are ALWAYS munchkinous, if you can explain (in some at least semi-logical
way) why your family is dead or you are a combat monster, or whatever then
you aren't being a munchkin, but at least you thought about it, if you fit
more than on or two of the criteria listed then maybe get a little
concerned, and if you or someone you know meets all the criteria, kill them
and steal the 43billion nuyen they probably have on their rating 25
credstick.


DAMN IT Bull your babbling is infectious, what the hell I think I just
wrote that all as one sentence..


ahhhh screw it.


Caric
Message no. 26
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:18:46 -0700
<snip example of using 20 dice to roleplay...etc>

> Erm, what?!?
>
> I hoping that was supposed to be funny and not that someone needs to work
> on some personal issues.
>
> Please tell that was supposed to be a joke, because honestly I didn't get
it.
>
> It was only supposed to be an example of a situation that munchkin
couldn't
> roll-play but would have to role-play, which is antithetical to the
munchkin.

Erik,

While I am not the originator or the post, I assure you that it was a
joke. I thought it was funny, keep up the good work. ;)

Caric
Message no. 27
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:25:01 -0400
While thinking about it, here's a list of player personalities as
encountered by Aaron Allston.

The Builder
The Buddy
The Combat Monster
The Genre Fiend
The Copier
The Mad Slasher
The Mad Thinker
The Plumber
The Pro From Dover
The Romantic
The Rules Rapist
The Showoff
The Tragedian

These observations were from his Champions games and I won't go into
what he meant by those titles. I posted them to give people something to
think about and to also promote thought in a direction other than
Munchkin, not Munchkin.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle
- G.I.Joe

I am MC23
Message no. 28
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:25:24 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/98 2:00:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time, bxb121@***.EDU
writes:

> > The drawback to those flaws, such as Vindictive or Distinctive Style
> > is that it has to be role-played...*that's* why munchkins take them,
> > because it doesn't affect their dice chucking. For that same
> > reason, it's why you have some serious *role* players taking them as
> > well.
>
> Thanks for protecting my ego. :)
>
Yours is the not the only one being protected...Binder's "Hat" is very
distinctive, as just one example.

-K
Message no. 29
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:01:24 -0400
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At 09:25 PM 4/10/98 -0400, MC23 wrote:
> While thinking about it, here's a list of player personalities
as
>encountered by Aaron Allston.

<<Snip>>

>The Plumber

<<Snip>>

> These observations were from his Champions games and I won't go
into
>what he meant by those titles.

No, I beg you... please, please, PLEEEEASE! Explain "The Plumber."
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 30
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:10:18 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>No, I beg you... please, please, PLEEEEASE! Explain "The Plumber."

"This player likes to create a character with a finely detailed and
intricate personality, and then spend his gaming career plumbing this
character to its depths."

I should have been real nice and make you wait some time before posting
it.
B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"But we know evil is an exact science,
being carefully, correctly wrong!"
-Shriekback, Nemesis

I am MC23
Message no. 31
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:49:26 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:10 PM 4/10/98 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;
>
>>No, I beg you... please, please, PLEEEEASE! Explain "The Plumber."
>
>"This player likes to create a character with a finely detailed and
>intricate personality, and then spend his gaming career plumbing this
>character to its depths."

And here I thought it'd have something to do with the metaphoric RP
equivilent of water and pipes and big heavy toolbelts that pull down
pants to make a visible buttcrack.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 32
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:23:13 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>And here I thought it'd have something to do with the metaphoric RP
>equivilent of water and pipes and big heavy toolbelts that pull down
>pants to make a visible buttcrack.

Hey, this was about player _personality_ types. If you want to deal
with the physical types of gamers then get the gaming convention RPG,
Rails & Whales.

B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 33
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:27:58 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/98 10:14:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mc23@**********.COM writes:

> "This player likes to create a character with a finely detailed and
> intricate personality, and then spend his gaming career plumbing this
> character to its depths."
>
As in detailing his character to it's depths? Working out all it's facets and
possible directives?

I just want to make sure I know what kind of clothing to buy for Binder ;)

-K
Message no. 34
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:48:53 +0100
And verily, did Raven hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> Erik J.
|>
|>
|> "Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
|I think your .sig is a bit out of date by now... ;)
|won't say more because of spoilers for part 3 dragonheart saga!

Why's it out of date?
South Park's only been on for a couple of weeks over on this side of the
pond, and it's still popular over there....

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:27:58 +0100
Drekhead said on 14:05/10 Apr 98...

> I mean no offense here, Erik, because I've done it too. But I feel
> that it is munckinous, because it gives them reason to not have to
> roleplay anything regarding family, and it doesn't give the
> gamemaster any hooks to control or manipulate them with. Besides, its
> so cliche. Just about every character I have ever seen has dead
> relatives. (Most of mine included).

I think many of you are missing an important point here: having a family
or not isn't munchkinous in itself. It's the _reason_ for not having them
that determines whether it's munchkinous: if the player chooses the
character not to have relatives so the player isn't bothered by them and
doesn't have to roleplay, it's done for munchkin reasons. However,
choosing not to have relatives for your character so you can play out the
situations that pop up because of that is not munchkinous.

The same goes for lots of things in Tinner's munchkin manual and Brett's
quiz -- many things aren't munchkin per se, only if they're done for a
specific reason, namely to make the character powerful beyond the rules
and take him or her beyond the need for roleplaying. IMnsHO :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
International Man of Mystery
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 36
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Munchkin Manual (long)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:39:39 -0600
Bull wrote:
/
/ player, and they get a whole category of gamer dedicated to them. Munchies
/ often do their best to "win" the game using whatever means are necessary.
/ Flashy weapons, massive damage, and thermonuclear warheads are the tools of
/ their trade. Roleplaying only gets in the way of the munchkin. Family,

Don't forget: lying, cheating, misinterpretation of the rules, and
whining.

/
/ POWER GAMER -- Very similar to the Munchkin in form and style, Power Gamers
/ often enjoy "winning" the game, in so much as their character becomes
/ unbeatable. However, they don;t want the game to end. They enjoy the

That would be a Munchkin Power Gamer.

In my experience the regular Power Gamer's goal is bragging rights.
As in, "I am the greatest!"

/ EVIL PC's -- These can be any of the other types of problem gamer, or even
/ the best Role Player you ever met, but they get their enjoyment out of
/ screwing around with the game, usually by going completely contrary to what
/ he knows is the GMs plots and plans, and often causing friction and
/ problems with the other players. These PC's often end up dead by other
/ players intervention, as well as by annoyed GMs.

There's also the munchkin that only players evil characters so that his
characters can do whatever they want (and the munchkin doesn't have to
roleplay and yet can claim that he's roleplaying).

-David
--
"Hold a true friend with both hands."
- Nigerian Proverb
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Further Reading

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